Ongoing religious scandals

Hotblack Desiato

koth wrote: »

If the churches are safe from financial penalties, what's to motivate them to stop this crap happening again? We know that trusting them to be moral and humane towards victims isn't enough. They need to be treated like any other group in society. They rape children then cover up the abuses, they better believe they'll be punished to the full extent of the law and the victims compensated for their suffering.

Of course, none of the above will ever happen in Ireland. This goes without saying.

Delirium

ninja900 wrote: »

Of course, none of the above will ever happen in Ireland. This goes without saying.

I swear it seems like churches in other countries were taking notes on happenings here so they could do likewise and protect their assets. :mad::mad:

Sulla Felix

With little analysis, and in an almost certain conflict with a binding Supreme Court precedent, Randa concludes that the church has a constitutional right to shield its funds.

Judge Randa, a George H.W. Bush appointee, has a history of being reversed by higher courts in cases involving hot button social issues, so there is a good chance that his opinion will ultimately be reversed on appeal.

So, there's hope yet.

recedite

I wouldn't be too worried about that judgement, the money involved is specifically earmarked for the maintenance of cemeteries. Hypothetically speaking, if the entire RCC was dissolved tomorrow, that sort of work would have to go on anyway. If all the general diocesan funds were locked away in funds for special purposes it would be difficult for the church to continue functioning.

If the judgement had been in favour of some special purpose which is an ongoing part of promoting and operating the church, such as a fund for maintenance of a church building used for worship, or a school used for indoctrinating the next generation, that would be more worrying.

In the Irish situation, we had trusts set up by religious orders to continue promoting and supporting their former schools, on an ongoing basis, and carrying on the original ethos. The religious orders themselves seemed to be capitulating anyway from the inside, due to lack of new recruitment.

I don't think we have seen an actual diocese in Ireland putting their money in a trust fund though, except the abuse victim fund, which has collected some money at least ?

MrPudding

recedite wrote: »

I wouldn't be too worried about that judgement, the money involved is specifically earmarked for the maintenance of cemeteries.

I think the point is, it is rather a lot of money for cutting grass and mending fences. In addition, they have a letter form the guy that did the transfer telling the vatican how clever he was and how the transfer would protect the money from those thieving rape victims.

MrP

recedite

If the cemetery maintenance work goes on "in perpetuity" then the costs will be infinite.

The guy can be expected to write a slimy letter to his boss, but is he really as clever as he thinks he is?
Not if the money is now completely ringfenced, and he can never use it for any other purpose.

robindch

The Association of Catholic Priests points out that "a combination of hypocrisy and moral righteousness is a very unpleasant sight". Bet you won't guess what they're complaining about though.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/media-attacks-on-religious-condemned-1.1485526

Irish Times wrote:

Two founder members of the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP) have condemned as “scurrilous” what it described as a “sustained media attack on religious orders”. Fr Brendan Hoban asked “how has it has come about that the actions of a minority of religious has effectively led to the demonisation of all religious, even though the vast majority lived admirable and sometimes heroic lives?”

He continued: “How has it come about that religious who gave up their salaries so that schools could offer a wider curriculum to their students (or religious who stood at a sink for 50 years working for nothing in an effort to augment the measly contribution of the State to the care of the young or religious who were for decades the only social contact with the desperately poor) are now, in their old age, ritually and comprehensively condemned in a media frenzy that seems intent on not providing the kind of balance that equity and justice require.”

Concerning the recent controversy following a refusal by the four religious congregations which ran Magdalene laundries to contribute to a redress fund for women who had been in them, he wondered at “how reluctant the public . . . seemed to be in defending the nuns. Where were all the past-pupils of Loreto, Our Lady’s Bower and the Ursulines? Why indeed, at a wider level, the silence from alumni of Clongowes, Blackrock, Rockwell, St Jarlath’s and St Muredach’s?” He continued: “What’s instructive now is how that silence and condemnatory attitude that underpins it have become the media template for coverage of matters religious.”

Quoting from articles in The Irish Times, the Sunday Independent and the Sunday Times he said “the reason for this sustained assault” was a refusal of the four congregations concerned “to bend to additional pressure from the State to make further contributions to save the taxpayers paying their share.” He said “the Minister for Justice even suggested that they had ‘a moral and ethical duty’ to pay more. The media coverage, unfair and sometimes scurrilous, upped the pressure yet another notch. But the nuns were not for turning.”

They had “already contributed generously. They had apologised for the activities of some of their members. They regretted ‘the distress, isolation, pain, confusion and much more’ that the Magdalene women had to endure . . . But there would be no further financial contribution,” he said. The nuns, he said, “are right. It’s time that the nuns drew that line in the sand. It’s time that they refused to be bullied into line by politicians and a predictable retinue of well-known anti-Catholic voices in the media. It’s time that they rediscovered their self-respect and stopped apologising for the failures of individual members . . . and protested at the manner in which so many of their members have been unfairly and irresponsibly demonised.”

In support of Fr Hoban, another ACP co-founder Fr Tony Flannery said he was “sickened by the abuse and vitriol heaped on the nuns during the last few weeks; as if shovelling abuse on a group of old women was an admirable thing to do.” He said “some of the spokespeople for the Magdalenes were utterly extreme and showed a complete lack of understanding of the lives of nuns, and of the contribution they have made to Irish life and people for the last few centuries. A combination of hypocrisy and moral righteousness is a very unpleasant sight.”

Banbh

Far too often the inmates of prisons and concentration camps fail to appreciate the sacrifices of the guards. It's disgraceful.

Nodin

robindch wrote: »

The Association of Catholic Priests points out that "a combination of hypocrisy and moral righteousness is a very unpleasant sight". Bet you won't guess what they're complaining about though.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/media-attacks-on-religious-condemned-1.1485526

Two founder members of the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP) have condemned as “scurrilous” what it described as a “sustained media attack on religious orders”. Fr Brendan Hoban asked “how has it has come about that the actions of a minority of religious has effectively led to the demonisation of all religious, even though the vast majority lived admirable and sometimes heroic lives?”

.....because it came out in report after report that most if not all of yez knew, and ye covered for them.

Banbh

A combination of hypocrisy and moral righteousness is a very unpleasant sight.

These guys don't do irony.

(I followed that link to add a comment but comment doesn't appear to be enabled at the IT.)

UDP

They are the same c'unts that said they wouldn't break confessional secrecy no matter how bad the crime was they were informed of.

robindch

Banbh wrote: »

Far too often the inmates of prisons and concentration camps fail to appreciate the sacrifices of the guards. It's disgraceful.

Exactly that point was made by William Lane Craig in the slaughter of Canaanites:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites

William Lane Craig wrote:

So whom does God wrong in commanding the destruction of the Canaanites? Not the Canaanite adults, for they were corrupt and deserving of judgement. Not the children, for they inherit eternal life. So who is wronged? Ironically, I think the most difficult part of this whole debate is the apparent wrong done to the Israeli soldiers themselves. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to break into some house and kill a terrified woman and her children? The brutalizing effect on these Israeli soldiers is disturbing.

So there you have it - killing an unknown number of men, women and kids is tough, but won't somebody think of the murderers?

TheChizler

I had to stop once I got here:

1. If God does not exist, objective moral values do not exist.

2. Objective moral values do exist.

3. Therefore, God exists.

swampgas

robindch wrote: »

Exactly that point was made by William Lane Craig in the slaughter of Canaanites:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/slaughter-of-the-canaanites

So there you have it - killing an unknown number of men, women and kids is tough, but won't somebody think of the murderers?

It takes a special kind of twisted genius to come up with logic like that. Religious thinking, taken to extremes by intelligent people, is a very dangerous thing.

robindch

swampgas wrote: »

Religious thinking, taken to extremes by intelligent people, is a very dangerous thing.

At the start of his career, WC was probably smart enough to get a job as an unexceptional philosopher, perhaps at some minor seat of learning out mid-west.

But instead, he turned to sophistry, which offers a far higher capital return for self-inflating, listener-grooming prose.

Sarky

Jesus tapdancing Christ, that man is despicable.

Hotblack Desiato

swampgas wrote: »

It takes a special kind of twisted genius to come up with logic like that. Religious thinking, taken to extremes by intelligent people, is a very dangerous thing.

Bad enough even in the hands of the likes of a John Waters...



And screw the ACP for misleading people they were going to be something approaching reasonable

robindch

Bessborough House in Cork was a "mother-and-baby home", basically a place run by nuns where shamed (ie, pregnant) women could go to have their baby, the majority of which I gather would then be taken from them and adopted into good catholic families instead. The shaming-and-stealing process was appalling enough (it happened in my family, in the mid-1960's).

What was substantially more appalling was the mortality rate at some of these church-run institutions -- over 50% in some places, in some years. The first article here, relying on the eyewitness account of a local doctor who took matters into his own hands, is almost beyond belief. Assuming the report is accurate, an inquiry is the very least that should happen. Retrospective legislation for post-mortem prosecutions for crimes against humanity seems almost quite reasonable:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/health-news/mirror-investigates-doc-who-lifted-2150083
http://www.thejournal.ie/morality-mother-and-baby-homes-1029062-Aug2013/
http://www.irishcentral.com/IrishAmerica/The-Legacy-of-Church-run-Mother-and-Baby-Homes-in-Ireland-98749144.html

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Bessborough House in Cork was a "mother-and-baby home", basically a place run by nuns where shamed (ie, pregnant) women could go to have their baby, the majority of which I gather would then be taken from them and adopted into good catholic families instead. The shaming-and-stealing process was appalling enough (it happened in my family, in the mid-1960's).

What was substantially more appalling was the mortality rate at some of these church-run institutions -- over 50% in some places, in some years. The first article here, relying on the eyewitness account of a local doctor who took matters into his own hands, is almost beyond belief. Assuming the report is accurate, an inquiry is the very least that should happen. Retrospective legislation for post-mortem prosecutions for crimes against humanity seems almost quite reasonable:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/health-news/mirror-investigates-doc-who-lifted-2150083
http://www.thejournal.ie/morality-mother-and-baby-homes-1029062-Aug2013/
http://www.irishcentral.com/IrishAmerica/The-Legacy-of-Church-run-Mother-and-Baby-Homes-in-Ireland-98749144.html

Bessborough...I remember friends of my sister being sent there - my sister is 56.

It was the 'bogeyman' of every female growing up in Cork.

recedite

robindch wrote: »

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/health-news/mirror-investigates-doc-who-lifted-2150083

That is disgraceful..... instead of having the place disinfected, the first thing the Bishop did was to go to the Papal Nuncio and try to get the Chief Medical Officer overruled, by having the P. Nuncio (effectively a foreign ambassador) "lean on" the Taoiseach of the day. Luckily the foreigner saw some sense, but its an insight into how things were done back then. The casual and routine abuse of power by the RCC.

There was obviously a staphylococcus infection about.“Without any legal authority I closed the place down and sacked the matron, a nun, and also got rid of the medical officer.
"The deaths had been going on for years. They had done nothing.
“A couple of days later I had a visit in Dublin from the nuns’ ‘man of affairs’ and he was followed by the Dean of of Cork, Monsignor Sexton, and finally the Bishop of Cork complained to the Papal Nuncio, who went to see De Valera.
“The Nuncio, Archbishop Robinson, saw my report and said we were quite right in our action.
“For once the Bishop, Dr Lucey, a formidable fighting man, was silent.”
Bessborough was disinfected.

Delirium

Cardinal blocked clerical sex abuse inquiry in Scotland

Disgraced Cardinal Keith O'Brien blocked an independent inquiry into cases of historic sexual abuse a year before resigning over his own inappropriate sexual conduct, the Catholic Church has said.

The Bishops' Conference of Scotland commissioned a report into allegations of abuse in 2011 but it was halted the following year when Cardinal O'Brien, then president of the conference, withdrew his support.

The cardinal stepped down as Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh in February after three priests and a former priest made allegations of inappropriate behaviour against him.

He issued an apology, saying "there have been times that my sexual conduct has fallen below the standards expected of me".

His opposition to an inquiry into Church-related abuse allegations was revealed by the retired archbishop of Glasgow, Mario Conti, in a letter to the Catholic newspaper The Tablet.

Sarky

He never apologised for that bit. Must be dine to block investigations in churchland.

Bannasidhe

koth wrote: »

Cardinal blocked clerical sex abuse inquiry in Scotland

I heard the editor of The Tablet on the radio yesterday - she really isn't being a good girl and shutting up. Nooooo...she is demanding answers.

Bloody wimmenz. :cool:

Cabaal

http://www.thejournal.ie/vatican-envoy-sacked-sex-children-1069658-Sep2013/

THE VATICAN’S ENVOY to the Dominican Republic has been sacked amid an investigation in Rome into accusations he had sex with children.

John Paul II appointed him nuncio to Bolivia, his first posting. Wesolowski also worked in several countries in Central Asia and was appointed to the Dominican Republic by Benedict XVI in 2008.

Surprising that its happening in another country....not at all on any level. We'll be hearing about this for decades more especially from African and Asian country's

Sarky

Wait... The Vatican actually sacked someone over child sex abuse? Am I reading this right? I never thought that'd happen tbh.

Cabaal

Sarky wrote: »

Wait... The Vatican actually sacked someone over child sex abuse? Am I reading this right? I never thought that'd happen tbh.

My understanding is they've removed him from his position, he's not been defrocked.

Sarky

So no real change then. Too bad.

Brian Shanahan

Sarky wrote: »

Wait... The Vatican actually sacked someone over child sex abuse? Am I reading this right? I never thought that'd happen tbh.

They'll probably do what county councils and schools do, promote him.

I had work experience with a county council, where the grade 6 over me got the job simply because she was so incompetent in her previous position the dept. head wanted rid of her. And it is a common phenomenon in secondary schools that the most incompetent teacher with a permanent contract soon ascends to vice-principal when the previous one retires.

Hotblack Desiato

So... have they passed over all evidence in their possession to the relevant civil authorities? or do they still think their lads are only subject to the Vatican's laws?

joseph brand

Mission Congo: how Pat Robertson raised millions on the back of a non-existent aid project.

I'm sure Mr Robertson needs no introduction.

Now a new documentary lays bare the extent of the misrepresentations of Operation Blessing's activities in the Democratic Republic of Congo, formerly Zaire, that it says continue to this day.

Mission Congo, by David Turner and Lara Zizic, opens at the Toronto film festival on Friday. It describes how claims about the scale of aid to Rwandan refugees were among a number of exaggerated or false assertions about the activities of Operation Blessing which pulls in hundreds of millions of dollars a year in donations, much of it through Robertson's televangelism. They include characterising a failed large-scale farming project as a huge success, and claims about providing schools and other infrastructure.

But some of the most damaging criticism of Robertson comes from former aid workers at Operation Blessing, who describe how mercy flights to save refugees were diverted hundreds of miles from the crisis to deliver equipment to a diamond mining concession run by the televangelist.

Robert Hinkle, the chief pilot for Operation Blessing in Zaire in 1994, said he received new orders. "They began asking me: can we haul a thousand-pound dredge over? I didn't know what the dredging deal was about," he said.

The documentary describes how dredges, used to suck up diamonds from river beds, were delivered hundreds of miles from the crisis in Goma to a private commercial firm, African Development Company, registered in Bermuda and wholly owned by Robertson. ADC held a mining concession near the town of Kamonia on the far side of the country.

"Mission after mission was always just getting eight-inch dredgers, six-inch dredgers … and food supplies, quads, jeeps, out to the diamond dredging operation outside of Kamonia," Hinkle told the film-makers.