Musgrave Park redevelopment

profitius

Good news for the people of Cork. It looks like work will soon start in Musgrave Pk. How much they do and how long it takes should be interesting.

Munster Rugby to begin €20m Musgrave Park development

By Barry Coughlan

Friday, March 12, 2010

MUNSTER Rugby is about to embark on a €20million development of Musgrave Park, the first phase of which will see an increase in ground capacity from 7,000 to 12.500 by the third quarter of 2011.

Ultimately, the hope is to increase the capacity of the ground to between 18,000 and 22,000 in a development that could facilitate other sports or special events in years to come, probably by 2014 at the latest.

Former Munster Branch President Niall O’Driscoll confirmed yesterday that phase one of the project – the demolition of the current tiny west stand to be replaced by a state-of-the-art 6,500 capacity structure – would begin in January of next year and should be completed in time for the start of the new season in September.

Up to €8m has been allocated to allow for completion of the first part of the project.

O’Driscoll emphasised this would only be the start of the overall development, plans for which have been drawn up and plans that include a further big seating arrangement of similar size on the east side of the ground. Munster Rugby has also decided to develop the areas at either end of the ground and may include some seating in those areas that are currently terraced. Permission has already been granted for the west stand development and plans are in the process of being lodged to complete the overall plan which ran into trouble because of some local objections and lack of cooperation from a small number of city councillors.

Musgrave Park, even with full development, will not be allocated Heineken Cup games for up to six more seasons, but could benefit by hosting big Magners League games, thus helping to generate serious revenue for the local economy.

O’Driscoll said yesterday: "We have now decided to drive ahead with the development to bring the capacity eventually to something between 18,000 and 22,000.

"All along we were looking to have permission for the entire project, but we have now decided to start with what we have permission for and have plans to continue that around the ground. At this stage, it is essential to have an overall plan to provide a state-of-the-art stadium for our supporters, for the people of Cork and the people of Munster.

"By doing it that way we’re showing everyone we are serious about staying in Musgrave Park."

PhatPiggins

I'd be happy if they cleaned the bog regularly.

Trotter

I've my fingers crossed they'll use the RSC in Waterford for a few games. The support is here for it and the stadium is up to scratch, if a little small.

Aidric

Musgrave Park, even with full development, will not be allocated Heineken Cup games for up to six more seasons

Why in the hell would they want to move Heineken games away from Thomond? That makes not a shred of sense.

GisforGrenade

Nice one, Musgrave park has been crying out for redevelopment, one of the previous times they had gone seeking planning permission a certain Green party councillor shot it down, I am looking at you Dan Boyle. I don't really mind that it won't get Heineken Cup matches as long as it gets a even share of the Magner's league matchs, its great been able to stroll down on a Saturday to a Magner's league match and as of next year there will be extra home matches courtesy of the Italians.

gcgirl

Trotter wrote: »

I've my fingers crossed they'll use the RSC in Waterford for a few games. The support is here for it and the stadium is up to scratch, if a little small.

That would be cool!

slingerz

Aidric wrote: »

Why in the hell would they want to move Heineken games away from Thomond? That makes not a shred of sense.

Because Cork is a larger base that Limerick perhaps?

thomond2006

slingerz wrote: »

Because Cork is a larger base that Limerick perhaps?

A larger fan base? I doubt it.

I don't see the point in having two 20,000+ stadiums. Munster don't play enough games at home to warrant MP's redevelopment.

profitius

thomond2006 wrote: »

A larger fan base? I doubt it.

I don't see the point in having two 20,000+ stadiums. Munster don't play enough games at home to warrant MP's redevelopment.

If they're going to be playing alot of games in Cork every season then it makes sense to have a decent stadium. If you want to move all the games to Limerick you are basically ignoring most people in Munster. It would be silly not to build redevelop MP.

I reckon in future most ML games will be played in Cork because they'll get bigger crowds.

I also think the A matches should be moved to Waterford and Tipp because they don't get to see many games.

Aidric

profitius wrote: »

If they're going to be playing alot of games in Cork every season then it makes sense to have a decent stadium. If you want to move all the games to Limerick you are basically ignoring most people in Munster. It would be silly not to build redevelop MP.

You are missing the point. Thomond Park was redeveloped at a big cost to be the home of Munster rugby. Now why would they built another 20k stadium and transfer the revenue away from TP? The stadium needs to pay for itself.
By all means bring Musgrave up to 12.5k and give it the Magners games it currently gets but let's just leave it at that.

PhatPiggins

thomond2006 wrote: »

A larger fan base? I doubt it.

I don't see the point in having two 20,000+ stadiums. Munster don't play enough games at home to warrant MP's redevelopment.

There'll be 1/2 extra games in the ML with the playoffs and 2 extra when the Italians join. Plenty of merit in having two decent stadiums when you consider the split in the demograph.

ScrubsfanChris

This picture has been floating around for a bit as the new proposed West Stand.

Aidric

Really pushing the boat out with that design. :rolleyes:

phog

slingerz wrote: »

Because Cork is a larger base that Limerick perhaps?

Where were they on Friday night? Munster V Heriots in the B&I Cupand about 700 fans there to cheer them on.

profitius

Aidric wrote: »

You are missing the point. Thomond Park was redeveloped at a big cost to be the home of Munster rugby. Now why would they built another 20k stadium and transfer the revenue away from TP? The stadium needs to pay for itself.
By all means bring Musgrave up to 12.5k and give it the Magners games it currently gets but let's just leave it at that.

Munster are raking in the cash. Jerseys, sponsors, attendances etc. The bigger attendances and more games will help pay for it. In 10 years time they'll be in a healthy position.

TP is well on the way to being paid for and its not full very often.

durkadurka

Aidric wrote: »

You are missing the point. Thomond Park was redeveloped at a big cost to be the home of Munster rugby. Now why would they built another 20k stadium and transfer the revenue away from TP? The stadium needs to pay for itself.
By all means bring Musgrave up to 12.5k and give it the Magners games it currently gets but let's just leave it at that.

Defo. we're talking 15 home games a year. 2 stadiums?

phog

profitius wrote: »

Munster are raking in the cash. Jerseys, sponsors, attendances etc. The bigger attendances and more games will help pay for it. In 10 years time they'll be in a healthy position.

TP is well on the way to being paid for and its not full very often.

Dont know how accurate that is but why squander it on developing another stadium, a smaller stadium. If Munster will have a financial windfall I'd perfer that they go larger stadium in Cork if they want Cork as a base or invest in players, coaches, teams facilities or increasing the size of TP.

BOHtox

I think they should share a ground with cork city. A 20,000 all seater stadium would then be viable . For rugby open 4 stands for football 1 or 2

profitius

BOHtox wrote: »

I think they should share a ground with cork city. A 20,000 all seater stadium would then be viable . For rugby open 4 stands for football 1 or 2

Cork City have no money and would never be able to afford it. I think Munster are looking to rent it out to other sports.

phog wrote:

Dont know how accurate that is but why squander it on developing another stadium, a smaller stadium. If Munster will have a financial windfall I'd perfer that they go larger stadium in Cork if they want Cork as a base or invest in players, coaches, teams facilities or increasing the size of TP.

I'd day they're waiting until the current stadiums sell out in most games.

phog

profitius wrote: »

Cork City have no money and would never be able to afford it. I think Munster are looking to rent it out to other sports.



I'd day they're waiting until the current stadiums sell out in most games.

Does TP not sell out for most games at the moment? I think it does but taking that it doesn't I don't see the point of borrowing or using cash flow to pay for redevelopment of another grounds until TP is paid for and that the yearly revenue covers the running costs of both grounds and the branch.

BOHtox

If cork and Munster split the cost I think both could afford it. What was it 12 million odd. Split that 6 million each . Cork would get around 5 k each match 5,000 x €15 quid in = €75,000 minus expenses etc I would feel that is viable. Cork and Munster would both also get grants so it would be less then 6 million each. Their current grounds are about 2 minutes from each other so youwon't lose any supporters.

Podge_irl

Isn't one of MP or TP owned by the IRFU as opposed to MR? I have no idea if this has any influence on things, just something I thought I'd heard.

durkadurka

BOHtox wrote: »

If cork and Munster split the cost I think both could afford it. What was it 12 million odd. Split that 6 million each . Cork would get around 5 k each match 5,000 x €15 quid in = €75,000 minus expenses etc I would feel that is viable. Cork and Munster would both also get grants so it would be less then 6 million each. Their current grounds are about 2 minutes from each other so youwon't lose any supporters.

Whatever the viability of it, couldnt the money be better used elsewhere? Like coaching buckley for example!

Its all about what you do with the resource that you have. do munster need 2 20k stadiums? Sounds crazy to me.

profitius

Podge_irl wrote: »

Isn't one of MP or TP owned by the IRFU as opposed to MR? I have no idea if this has any influence on things, just something I thought I'd heard.

I think MP is part owned by the IRFU. I also think that Munster have the option of buying the IRFU's share in it, when they can afford it.

BOHtox

durkadurka wrote: »

Whatever the viability of it, couldnt the money be better used elsewhere? Like coaching buckley for example!

Its all about what you do with the resource that you have. do munster need 2 20k stadiums? Sounds crazy to me.

But does Cork city need one I thnk in the long run yes so why not share with Munster to open there doors to more support.

Getting 20,000 at the matches in Cork and Limerick can potentially double the amount of merchandise etc sold

durkadurka

Let cork city fc or cork city council pay for it, or a percentage of it then,

lawrencesummers

leinster have a problem that they are trying to overcome by not having a presence outside of dublin, munster would not be foolish enough to allow that to develop.

musgrave park would get money form the irfu as well presumably as AIL teams are based there, there are poor standard dressing and preperation rooms there as it is

a redevoloped stadium would allow it to be used as a concert venue as well, very good revenue to be had from that, as well as soccer if the LOI get their act together, and building costs now must be very economic.

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

Does TP not sell out for most games at the moment? I think it does but taking that it doesn't I don't see the point of borrowing or using cash flow to pay for redevelopment of another grounds until TP is paid for and that the yearly revenue covers the running costs of both grounds and the branch.

Munster have played Cardiff, Ulster and Connacht at Thomond Park this season in the ML and none of those were sell outs.

The Leinster match on Good Friday is a sell out.

They then play Glasgow and Ospreys.

I doubt Glasgow will sell out, a week after Six Nations and all.
Ospreys might sell out given it could be a play-off place decider (penultimate "regular season" game) and because they are a top name.

Cork City have no money and would never be able to afford it. I think Munster are looking to rent it out to other sports.

Other than GAA and football (both would never happen, GAA have Pairc Ui Chaoimh and Cork City are broke), what other sports are there that could pay for the stadium?

phog

thomond2006 wrote: »

Munster have played Cardiff, Ulster and Connacht at Thomond Park this season in the ML and none of those were sell outs.

The Leinster match on Good Friday is a sell out.

They then play Glasgow and Ospreys.

I doubt Glasgow will sell out, a week after Six Nations and all.
Ospreys might sell out given it could be a play-off place decider (penultimate "regular season" game) and because they are a top name.

Were they sellouts and people didnt bother attending or were they actually undersold? Either way, I dont see the point of spending tight resources on a stadium when money could be spent of improving their main stadium, coaching team, squad players, acadamey or training set-up?

thomond2006

phog wrote: »

Were they sellouts and people didnt bother attending or were they actually undersold? Either way, I dont see the point of spending tight resources on a stadium when money could be spent of improving their main stadium, coaching team, squad players, acadamey or training set-up?

I never thought of that.

By all means build a stand at MP but I'd leave it at that IMO.

buck65

I agree Thomond, 3 or 4 ML games a year in Musgrave Park is fine by me but after building a super world class stadium in Thomond another one would be ridiculous. By all means have a decent 12,500 seater stadium with good facilities. Thomond should still be used for the big ML games (interpros) and all the HCup games.

Munster v Cardiff had a crowd of 15k aprox. Both the Ulster and Connacht games had 20k plus (I think that Connacht sold out but being on Stephen's day alot might have stayed in the pub or at home). Very good attendances for League games.

The posts about rotating the A games around the province are spot on too.

PhatPiggins

buck65 wrote: »

I agree Thomond, 3 or 4 ML games a year in Musgrave Park is fine by me but after building a super world class stadium in Thomond another one would be ridiculous. By all means have a decent 12,500 seater stadium with good facilities. Thomond should still be used for the big ML games (interpros) and all the HCup games.

Munster v Cardiff had a crowd of 15k aprox. Both the Ulster and Connacht games had 20k plus (I think that Connacht sold out but being on Stephen's day alot might have stayed in the pub or at home). Very good attendances for League games.

The posts about rotating the A games around the province are spot on too.

Where do you live Buck? I'm going to presume Thomond is an Angela's Ashes scallywag.

buck65

Ennis phat.
I may be biased, Ennis to Thomond in 25 minutes and that includes apiss in the LIT carpark:D

PhatPiggins

buck65 wrote: »

Ennis phat.
I may be biased, Ennis to Thomond in 25 minutes and that includes apiss in the LIT carpark:D

I had a feeling you might be as are a lot of the posters on this thread nay saying Mussies redevelopement.

I'd agree that 12,500 all seater would be ideal but the "ar sure give Musgrave 3/4 games a year. Thats enough for them" annoys the crap out of me.

Thomond park isn't exactly in the centre of the provence(it takes me three hours to get to Limerick).

P.s. I'm glad you found a practical use for that drain on revenue that is LIT

phog

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Where do you live Buck? I'm going to presume Thomond is an Angela's Ashes scallywag.

Should they also develope a stadium in Kerry and Waterford to meet the needs of the supporters in the West and East of the province?

durkadurka

phog wrote: »

Should they also develope a stadium in Kerry and Waterford to meet the needs of the supporters in the West and East of the province?

Aren't you forgetting Tipperary and Clare. Shouldn't they have 20,000 seat stadiums too?

PhatPiggins

phog wrote: »

Should they also develope a stadium in Kerry and Waterford to meet the needs of the supporters in the West and East of the province?

Is this your attempt at baiting me? Oh right your from Limerick too.

West Kerry/Clare/Tipp/Limerick can easily get to Thomond park. Why should fans from Cork/Waterford/East Kerry have to travel 6 hours round trip for every game.

The majority of Munster games should and always will be played in Limerick. But we deserve a semi decent stadium for the games that are not. The Munster branch obviously believe that its finacially and socially viable and I'm delighted with the decision.

buck65

Phat, I actually agree with everything you said.

ScrubsfanChris

What ever about the need for a second 20k+ stadium for Munster Rugby.
Cork City, the second biggest in Ireland, has no large municipal stadium which is amazing.
Páirc Uí Chaoimh is a tip inside and out, and won't get done up until the planed Docklands redevelopment goes ahead.
Anyway, to segregate Cork from all Munster matches would be a travisty.
I don't mind going to Limerick for the H-Cup games, but we have to keep atleast 50/55% of the Magners league games in Cork.

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

I think MP is part owned by the IRFU. I also think that Munster have the option of buying the IRFU's share in it, when they can afford it.

It is all owned by IRFU.
Munster is a branch of the IRFU.

Aidric

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Anyway, to segregate Cork from all Munster matches would be a travisty.

What are you on about? Where was that ever suggested?

phog

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Is this your attempt at baiting me? Oh right your from Limerick too.

West Kerry/Clare/Tipp/Limerick can easily get to Thomond park. Why should fans from Cork/Waterford/East Kerry have to travel 6 hours round trip for every game.

The majority of Munster games should and always will be played in Limerick. But we deserve a semi decent stadium for the games that are not. The Munster branch obviously believe that its finacially and socially viable and I'm delighted with the decision.

Yes, I'm from Limerick, no I'm not baiting you. I travel to MP for all the ML matches as well as to TP and I know full well the travels problems that face the fans that have to travel but I dont see how the Munster Branch can jusitfy spending whatever amount of millions required on the redevelopment of MP when they could spend it on making Munster a stronger team.

Due to TP having sold 10 year tickets they have to host about 6 ML and 3 HC matches that leaves the remaining ML league matches in MP, does that warrant a 20K stadium, the evidence is no.

profitius

JustinDee wrote: »

It is all owned by IRFU.
Munster is a branch of the IRFU.

But the provinces are allowed make their own money etc and I think the IRFU gets a percentage of the profits if they control park of the stadium. Its not very clear how the system operates but thats what I have come to understand regarding the situation.

profitius

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I had a feeling you might be as are a lot of the posters on this thread nay saying Mussies redevelopement.

Its just a coincedence that the people who are against the MP development are living near TP.

Anyway, I don't think MP's development will effect the team. In the longer term it'll make it stronger especially in the ML with a bigger crowd roaring them on.

Co45

Would much prefer to see the IRFU using that 20million for youth development rather than upgrading another stadium for Munster. Just seems wasteful.

buck65

I think it would be seen as an investment i.e they would hope to get a return by way of profit out of it.

Co45

buck65 wrote: »

I think it would be seen as an investment i.e they would hope to get a return by way of profit out of it.

Would they though? Its taking games away from a bigger stadium so I'd assume they would be losing ticket sales revenue. Also with a World Cup on the horizon I would love to see that money invested into things like bringing in some world class scrum coaches for all the provinces, etc.

buck65

Or a bronze statue of Keith Earls.

phog

buck65 wrote: »

I think it would be seen as an investment i.e they would hope to get a return by way of profit out of it.

Why not use the same money to invest in a bigger or better coaching team, bigger or better squad, academy squad, increasing the size of TP, all these investments would help the Munster brand increase profits too and hopefully bring more silverware

profitius

I'd actually prefer if they invested in developing young players and set up an excellent scouting system throughout the province. But that wouldn't coast too much. I don't think it should be spent on paying foreigners big bucks. Theres enough talent in Munster to have a really good team and strength in all positions if those players were spotted.

Having said all of that they could easily do both. I presume they're not taking any money risks with their plan.

Amazotheamazing

While i can see the logic in extending Musgrave, a better question would be why does it take 2 hours to get from Cork to Limerick, they are only 90 km apart, same for Waterford, roughly. If we actually had proper infrastructure in Ireland, we'd have municipal stadia and proper roads between the regions. Course we don't, so it falls on sports bodies like the IRFu to make do as best they can.

I've never seen any evidence that Cork rugby needs a stadium as large as Thomond, I think 12-15,000 is fine, but 22,000 is verging on overambitious.

Btw, I don't see anything massively wrong with Munster picking a venue in Waterford, Tipp, Kerry and Clare and ensuring they can at least host Munster A matches and friendlies. So far we know the RSC can, as can Nenagh and Clonmel RFC's, why not try and get some investment for Ennis RFC and (say) Tralee RFC too. It's not like a lot of facilities are needed, with the exception of floodlights. Aren't there grants going for such things?