Why don't Gardai arrest/remove protesting Taxi men?

super_furry

Just looking at this video from earlier in the week when a group of militant Taxi drivers brought O'Connell Street to a standstill by blocking the LUAS. Not having a go at Gardai but are they under instruction to let them disrupt the flow of traffic? There's a sizable presence there yet I don't believe there was a single arrest made.

source

We live in a democracy, as such people have the right to peaceful gathering for the purpose of protest.

Arresting those taxi drivers would be in breach of their constitutional rights.

super_furry

Would it? I'm not being sarcastic, I genuinely don't know.

I mean I know if I were to stand in front of a LUAS in protest over a pay-cut or something similar, I'd expect to be arrested.

samhail

id be pissed off if i was on that luas... they those taxi drivers are interfering with me try to do what i wanted to do.
What about my constitutional rights !

i dont care what they want for themselves.
actually im going to walk next time instead of taking a taxi.

um7y1h83ge06nx

I agree with super_furry?

Surely you can't place yourself wherever you want if you're having a protest as long as it's peaceful. Then you could just blockade Garda stations etc.

Tefral

Article 40 section 6 of our constitution states:

The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:

ii. The right of the citizens to assemble peaceably and without arms.

Provision may be made by law to prevent or control meetings which are determined in accordance with law to be calculated to cause a breach of the peace or to be a danger or nuisance to the general public and to prevent or control meetings in the vicinity of either House of the Oireachtas.

While they maybe acting peacefully, standing on the luas tracks and road surely constitutes "nuisance" and they most certainly are a danger to themselves and the luas passengers...

Move em on i say......

source

Article 40.6 Bunreacht Na HÉireann

6. 1° The State guarantees liberty for the exercise of the following rights, subject to public order and morality:

i. The right of the citizens to express freely their convictions and opinions.
The education of public opinion being, however, a matter of such grave import to the common good, the State shall endeavour to ensure that organs of public opinion, such as the radio, the press, the cinema, while preserving their rightful liberty of expression, including criticism of Government policy, shall not be used to undermine public order or morality or the authority of the State.
The publication or utterance of blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter is an offence which shall be punishable in accordance with law.

ii. The right of the citizens to assemble peaceably and without arms.
Provision may be made by law to prevent or control meetings which are determined in accordance with law to be calculated to cause a breach of the peace or to be a danger or nuisance to the general public and to prevent or control meetings in the vicinity of either House of the Oireachtas.

iii. The right of the citizens to form associations and unions.
Laws, however, may be enacted for the regulation and control in the public interest of the exercise of the foregoing right.

2° Laws regulating the manner in which the right of forming associations and unions and the right of free assembly may be exercised shall contain no political, religious or class discrimination.

At most what you see in that video is Endangering traffic, But i have to say not being based in Dublin i couldn't tell you if endangering traffic is applicable to a light rail system, as it wouldn't be covered under the Road Traffic Acts.

We also don't get all that many protests down this side of the country, but i would imagine that once there is no Public Order offences and as long as emergency services vehicles such as seen in the video are allowed through, then the protesters are left to get on with what they're doing.

maglite

I could be way off here and it is something I have wondered about for a time. Behaviour liky to lead to a breach of the peace. By their being there if a stressed business man, who needs to get to a meeting to keep his job is delayed by the protest, swings a fist.


Is that then implying the taxi men were acting in a manorr likly to lead to a breach of the peace

source

maglite wrote: »

I could be way off here and it is something I have wondered about for a time. Behaviour liky to lead to a breach of the peace. By their being there if a stressed business man, who needs to get to a meeting to keep his job is delayed by the protest, swings a fist.


Is that then implying the taxi men were acting in a manorr likly to lead to a breach of the peace

Now we're getting into really nitty gritty law discussion, which probably isn't the best for this forum, as there is a law forum on boards, however:

Lets take the love ulster march, would you say the marchers provoked a breach of the peace, or would you say that there were people around that decided to go mental and were intent on causing trouble that day? I'd say it's the latter, and that the marchers weren't causing a breach of the peace or acting in a manner so as to be reckless as to whether a breach of the peace might be occasioned.

now back to your description of the business man who looses it, If the protesters are just standing there, peacefully and the business man comes up and hits one of them then the business man is guilty of assault(the protesters aren't trying to cause a breach of the peace in this instance, or being wreckless, just standing there).

If the protesters are shouting obscenities and making a general nuisance of themselves, insulting passers by for not listening to them or what have you, then they would be causing a breach of the peace, and/or being wreckless as to whether one will be occasioned. The problem is that whether or not the protesters are causing a breach of the peace or not, the business man is still guilty of section 2 assault (depending on what kind of damage he does). As to whether one or both or none are arrested would be a call for the garda on duty on the day.

And yes for anyone that might ask, you are supposed to just ignore it, and contact the gardai, inform them of what is happening and they will deal with it through the public order acts.

Locust

breach of the peace - we're talking about public disorder and using the public order act. There is little power to arrest a peaceful demonstrator for under the public order act, they have to commit an offence therein. As said they have every right to hold their demonstration. I suppose if things turn nasty with shouting or pushy shovey well then that's a different story, i'm sure we would see the gardai making arrests.

super_furry

super_furry wrote: »

There's a sizable presence there yet I don't believe there was a single arrest made.

I count 10 gardai at most. Highly outnumbered there. And there was a protest going on further up the street and across at the taxi regulator's office.

donvito99

foinse wrote: »

Lets take the love ulster march, would you say the marchers provoked a breach of the peace, or would you say that there were people around that decided to go mental and were intent on causing trouble that day? I'd say it's the latter, and that the marchers weren't causing a breach of the peace or acting in a manner so as to be reckless as to whether a breach of the peace might be occasioned.

I have to disagree with you there Foinse. Without getting anywhere near a 32 County Republic thread, aload of marchers who are clearly not welcome here is provocation. Its like aload of Celtic fans walking down the Shankill Road, or something along those lines.

I am in no way a republican, but was angered as a Dubliner, that this was ever allowed to go ahead, with thousands of euro worth of damage being done, and members of the public (fortunately Charlie Bird though) and Gardaí + other ES being injured.

Back OnT, I think that what those taxi drivers were doing qualifies as a nuisance, and is probably in breach of the relevant act.

How many thousands of commuters were effected by this unecessary action. I can sympathise with the taxi drivers, but is it really necessary to take it out on their customers?

Random

If me and a group of friends go out onto O'Connell St tomorrow to protest against these protests are the Gardai not gonna move us on either?

donvito99

donvito99 wrote: »

I have to disagree with you there Foinse. Without getting anywhere near a 32 County Republic thread, aload of marchers who are clearly not welcome here is provocation. Its like aload of Celtic fans walking down the Shankill Road, or something along those lines.

I am in no way a republican, but was angered as a Dubliner, that this was ever allowed to go ahead, with thousands of euro worth of damage being done, and members of the public (fortunately Charlie Bird though) and Gardaí + other ES being injured.

I don't support the Sinn Fein marches, or the Anti America / Israel marches but agree that they have a right to march / protest. I was angered when that protest against the Love Ulster march descended into a riot. And I'm a Dub too.

Random

Random wrote: »

If me and a group of friends go out onto O'Connell St tomorrow to protest against these protests are the Gardai not gonna move us on either?

We'll make an exception for you.

Random

foreign wrote: »

We'll make an exception for you.

I'm not trying to be funny.

challengemaster

Was fairly crazy the other day alright, most gardaí I've seen on O'Connell street ever... interesting to see a line of dublin bus' reversing up to the gpo and driving across the centre path to actually manage to get out....

The gardaí were taking every detail they could of the taxis though, I suppose, all they could...

BeardyGit

Would it be legal for members of the public to assemble for a peaceful protest which would effectively obstruct taxi's from making their way with a fare? I mean, could 100 folks assemble outside the old habitat building, stopping taxis from moving on and off the green, for the purpose of protesting against taxi drivers protesting? I'd give a few hours to that demonstration so I would. And then I'd take the LUAS home.....

Spook_ie

TBH I think you should give it a go, if it helped highlight the fact that the public wanted something done as well, regardless of it being to stop the protests, then maybe someone would actualy take the time to filter out the genuine grievences from the crap that makes good "sound bites" and actualy do something about it, you have my full support and in fact if you wish to arrange a mutualy acceptable time and place I'd glady allow you to obstruct my taxi in protest

parsi

Random wrote: »

I'm not trying to be funny.

We've seen before that taxi protests are treated with kid gloves - possibly due to the personalities involved - and allowed to obstruct traffic and cause major inconvenience.

The rest of the public have to give notice before they can take to the streets and protest. Indeed woe betide the poor joe soap who strays into a taxi-rank with his car or stops on a double-yellow for a second.

It's all down to numbers and attitudes - the larger the number and the worse the attitude , the more you'll get away with.

parsi

parsi wrote: »

The rest of the public have to give notice before they can take to the streets and protest.

You want to show where that comes from? No notice is needed for any protest or march. People usually advertise it to get numbers along and contact the gardai to provide an escort so they can march safely. Thats why there was not reason why the Love Ulster march could be stopped.

parsi wrote: »

Indeed woe betide the poor joe soap who strays into a taxi-rank with his car or stops on a double-yellow for a second.

Woe betide the poor taxi driver who parks on the footpath, loading bay, double yellow line, clearway, stands for hire off rank, etc.

parsi

What about this one then:

" Wilful obstruction.
9.—Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £200."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0009.html#zza2y1994s9

DonJose

super_furry wrote: »

<mod snip>

Fixed your post :mad:

Turner

I wasnt there now but..

I presume the Gardai were not going to wade in in numbers and use force on these people to arrest them for obstructing traffic.

You can be sure senior Gardai were engaging with the leaders of the protest and also with the Taxi Regulator going from side to side trying to resolve the situation.

The protestors gathered, protested and left.

Some people were delayed and have a right to be pissed off.

No arrests, no court cases, no ombudsman cases and no injuries.

Handled well in my opinion.

randylonghorn

Chief--- wrote: »

I presume the Gardai were not going to wade in in numbers and use force on these people to arrest them for obstructing traffic.

That wouldn't have been sensible nor desirable.

A few penalty points handed out, on the other hand ...

parsi

parsi wrote: »

What about this one then:

" Wilful obstruction.
9.—Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, wilfully prevents or interrupts the free passage of any person or vehicle in any public place shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £200."

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1994/en/act/pub/0002/sec0009.html#zza2y1994s9

I would say having a protest is a reasonable excuse.

randylonghorn wrote: »

That wouldn't have been sensible nor desirable.

A few penalty points handed out, on the other hand ...

I'd expect some summons as well as FCPS's to be winging their way out to the taxi drivers.

curadh

I would gladly participate in a protest blocking a taxi rank. +1 think about the damage they caused our peaceful fabric, imagine being stuck on that luas trying to get to a job interview or get to work or whatever that might threaten your income and livelihood. I say FFOCK, them! No consideration for the rest of us. :mad:

I might also add taxi fares are too high.

TouchingVirus

Chief--- wrote: »

I wasnt there now but..

I presume the Gardai were not going to wade in in numbers and use force on these people to arrest them for obstructing traffic.

You can be sure senior Gardai were engaging with the leaders of the protest and also with the Taxi Regulator going from side to side trying to resolve the situation.

The protestors gathered, protested and left.

Some people were delayed and have a right to be pissed off.

No arrests, no court cases, no ombudsman cases and no injuries.

Handled well in my opinion.

I disagree, they caused chaos and were in breach of the consitution on Article 40.6 (ii). They caused nuisance to the general public, contravening that section.

Where to protest then? Office of the taxi regulator perhaps? Somewhere relevant to their protest, not the middle of O'Connell street like that - Ridiculous.

Amalgam

What if it suits the government to let them block the streets? Spin and all that..

Turner

DonJose2 banned for 4 days for his earlier post.

Zambia

You do realise that if we simply employed Gardai to operate by the exact letter of the law in every case the city would come to a standstill.

By allowing a small delay the situation did not escalate and as has been stated this remained a protest not a riot.

If as soon as the first Taximan impeded traffic or the tram a senior Gardai shouted charge and led ten Gardai headlong into the crowd what would have happened??

Anyway we take 6 months and several years probation trying to get Gardai to use their heads to resolve situations. We should maybe trust them to use those heads ...

AlekSmart

You do realise that if we simply employed Gardai to operate by the exact letter of the law in every case the city would come to a standstill.

I`m not sure Zambia252,that the public perception (Non Taxi Driver) of the issue would support your contention.

Most regular users of Dublin City Centre will be only too aware of the new abilities of Taxi Drivers to designate any particular location as a dei-facto Taxi Rank.

These "new" powers only came about after a trial period when Taxi Drivers "tested" the resolve of the Taxi Regulator and The Gardai to actually regulate at all.

Once it had been shown that the Taxi Regulator,The Gardai and Dublin City Council were all operating at cross-purposes to each other the flood gates opened,and have remained so.

Take,for example,the bottom of Grafton St where the Taxi fraternity have no problem queuing back along the kerb to the corner of Dame St,with scarily dangerous consequences for EVERYBODY else.

That the Taxi Drivers have an issue concerning Rank Space is beyond doubt,but that cannot excuse a continious level of dangerous parking which appears to be largely ignored by the Gardai,save for a few brave Traffic Corps members.

Indeed,the Taxi Fraternity are now sufficiently emboldened as to argue with Gardai when being instructed to move on.

The ongoing policy of observance rather than action has now left the Gardai with a lot of "Catchup" to play.

At this stage the Taxi fraternity have now faced-down the Authorities,and particularly the Gardai,on several high-profile occasions.
The Garda authorities can point to a level of success in that no unpleasantness occurred and everybody went back to normal after these events.
This of course is only partially true as each succesive protest has further emboldened the hard-core of protest leaders.

At some point,if the Regulatory Authorities do not acquiess to the Taxi Drivers demands then the Gardai will be forced to take action.

I believe that the sort of very public funk which senior Gardai allowed to pervade last week will cost them dearly when this time of action finally does arrive.

In the meantime,it`s fair to say that the Taxi Drivers are winning the war on-the-street by a country mile !

TouchingVirus

@Zambia252: I completely agree that the spirit of the law and not the letter should be applied. But to whom does the spirit of the law equate to "Traffic chaos is all right, nothing to see here, move along"?

A few more high profile stunts like that protest and people will be asking serious questions of the Gardai, for now they're being walked on and are taking it; The joe soaps know it.

Shield

I've said it before when the taxi drivers did this the last time.

All it takes is a small number of people to take a note of all the taxi plate numbers causing these problems and make them available to a Hall of Shame site of some sort.

People could have a list of taxi plate numbers not to use on their phone and in 5 seconds decide whether this was a troublesome taxi undeserving of your business, or a hard working taxi keen to earn a living.

People of Ireland - do something. Show these taxi drivers they don't own the city. Imagine word got around that the public have elected not to use just 10 taxis bearing certain plate numbers because they used their cars to block Dublin's busiest street.

If RATM can beat the X-Factor, the general public can beat the bullying tactics of those selfish taxi drivers who think they have a right to cause chaos any time they want.

I wonder if they would keep it up if it meant there was a chance they'd never get another fare again as a taxi driver?

1922

wilful obstruction, public order act

section 8 direction to leave

that how beggars are dealt with in some places since the vagrancy act went

johnnyskeleton

foinse wrote: »

Article 40.6 Bunreacht Na HÉireann



At most what you see in that video is Endangering traffic, But i have to say not being based in Dublin i couldn't tell you if endangering traffic is applicable to a light rail system, as it wouldn't be covered under the Road Traffic Acts.

We also don't get all that many protests down this side of the country, but i would imagine that once there is no Public Order offences and as long as emergency services vehicles such as seen in the video are allowed through, then the protesters are left to get on with what they're doing.

How about this one:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0014/sec0006.html#partii-sec6

Taxi drivers are self employed (usually) and so by coming together on foot of an agreement that has as its purpose distoring the market (i.e. preventing their competitiors from carrying out their business) they are in breach of competition law.

It would be no different to McDonalds and Burger King picketing outside Supermacs.

Would certainly send a message out.

Shield

Yeah but who's going to take the action, and would an action not have to be taken against every single person as they are self employed? Costly to the state if they all apply for legal aid!

Anyway, as pointed out earlier, this is straying more into a Legal Discussion so can we bring it back on topic please and thanks?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

How about this one:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0014/sec0006.html#partii-sec6

Taxi drivers are self employed (usually) and so by coming together on foot of an agreement that has as its purpose distoring the market (i.e. preventing their competitiors from carrying out their business) they are in breach of competition law.

It would be no different to McDonalds and Burger King picketing outside Supermacs.

Would certainly send a message out.

source

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

How about this one:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0014/sec0006.html#partii-sec6

Taxi drivers are self employed (usually) and so by coming together on foot of an agreement that has as its purpose distoring the market (i.e. preventing their competitiors from carrying out their business) they are in breach of competition law.

It would be no different to McDonalds and Burger King picketing outside Supermacs.

Would certainly send a message out.

Nothing to do with An Garda Siochana, i think you'll find that Gardai have no powers under that act, therefore cannot enforce anything in it. that will be left to solicitors to sort out.

Zambia

AlekSmart wrote: »

In the meantime,it`s fair to say that the Taxi Drivers are winning the war on-the-street by a country mile !

Your post is interesting. In the case mentioned it would be just my observance that in some scenarios given all the information to hand.

The senior Garda on the scene has to make a decision. it easy for us to sit here later and pick holes in it.

What I found really interesting about what you stated above is the fact its still the Gardai's job to license and deal with Taxi's. Its a topic for another thread but the more of these jobs that are handled by specialised Non garda departments the better.

AlekSmart

The senior Garda on the scene has to make a decision. it easy for us to sit here later and pick holes in it.

What I found really interesting about what you stated above is the fact its still the Gardai's job to license and deal with Taxi's. Its a topic for another thread but the more of these jobs that are handled by specialised Non garda departments the better.

I would agree on the role of the Senior Member in charge on-the-day.

That decision call has to be made with relevance to a constantly changing set of circumstances.

The Wisdom Of Solomon does`nt enter into it !

However what we saw during the Taxi protest was yet again a sensation that nobody in Authority knew what to do,with as a result,maintaining the status-quo being seen as the less confrontational approach.

I would ask if the same Senior Officer would have been half as accomodating 24 hours earlier when An T-Uachtarain Mary McAleese and the President of Timor-Leste were performing Official Ceremonies at the Garden of Rememberance.

I would suggest that our Taxi-Driving friends along with their vehicles would have been removed toute-suite with little concern for the exact Statute being quoted to allow that action.

The REAL problem,as much for the Gardai as for the General Public is that this country appears to have NO set enforcable rules for ANYTHING.

The ongoing drip-feed of highly suspect dealings in the Politico-Economic field and the continuing reluctance of Official Ireland to even nod in the direction of investigation or retribution is merely reflected in all other area`s of our daily life.

I`m not having a pop at the Gardai here,but I am pointing to a Governance issue that is not going to go away and it is in the Gardai`s own interest to see that their position is clarified rather than see individual Members left to perform the "whatever you think yourself" manouvere as they did on the infamous May Day protest rally some years back....when it was the individual Garda who ended up carrying the can for the laziness and inneficiency of the Senior Managerial ranks.

Since the arrival of the All New,singing and dancing Taxi Regulator we know that the Gardai no longer have responsibility for day to day Taxi Licencing or Regulation issues.

Indeed it`s hard to know exactly Who has any more as the pass-the-parcel game will begin as soon as any really meaty issue is uncovered.

The Garda Carriage Office,once the absolute arbiter of all things Taxi regulatory,is now a much slimmer operation with no extra resources to deal even with the day to day problems presented by a hugely expanded Taxi-parc.

However this "war" that I refer to earlier is being waged on the streets and the battles are simple ones concerning the validity of Double Yellow Lines,Continious White Lines,Traffic Signs,Traffic Signals all of which are being openly disregarded on the Major Streets of the Capital City,often with Gardai looking on in a bemused state largely due to the sheer impossibility of that single member being able to do anything when faced down by a gaggle of 15-20 voluble Taxi Drivers......self preservation dictates that Garda simple leaves the field to return another time.

Apart from that the Taxi Business is doing just fine...

AlekSmart

AlekSmart wrote: »

Since the arrival of the All New,singing and dancing Taxi Regulator we know that the Gardai no longer have responsibility for day to day Taxi Licencing or Regulation issues.


However this "war" that I refer to earlier is being waged on the streets and the battles are simple ones concerning the validity of Double Yellow Lines,Continious White Lines,Traffic Signs,Traffic Signals all of which are being openly disregarded on the Major Streets of the Capital City,often with Gardai looking on in a bemused state largely due to the sheer impossibility of that single member being able to do anything when faced down by a gaggle of 15-20 voluble Taxi Drivers......self preservation dictates that Garda simple leaves the field to return another time.

Care to expand on these two comments?

Locust

AlekSmart wrote: »

Since the arrival of the All New,singing and dancing Taxi Regulator we know that the Gardai no longer have responsibility for day to day Taxi Licencing or Regulation issues.

Fair enough that the Taxi Regulator - Regulates the industry and even check taxis etc... but the Gardai still very much enforce taxi regulations they are a much bigger gang. I personally know many Gardai who deal with taxi drivers regularly - checking things are in order etc and dealing with them appropriately if they aren't.
To say Gardai no longer have responsibility for taxi licensing or regulation is ludicrous - if they catch someone driving a taxi that shouldn't or
are processing checks on taxi applications and something a rye crops up of course they are going to take action.

Taxi men in my area get an awful hard time from the Gardai in terms of tickets for illegal parking, bad driving etc... I'm just not sure about your broad sweeping provoking generalisations. Why just the other day i saw a young lone Garda inspecting a line of 20 or so taxis parked on the footpath, and he looked like he was dishing it out to them...

Victor

Chief--- wrote: »

I wasnt there now but..

I presume the Gardai were not going to wade in in numbers and use force on these people to arrest them for obstructing traffic.

You can be sure senior Gardai were engaging with the leaders of the protest and also with the Taxi Regulator going from side to side trying to resolve the situation.

The protestors gathered, protested and left.

Some people were delayed and have a right to be pissed off.

No arrests, no court cases, no ombudsman cases and no injuries.

Handled well in my opinion.

But the lives of 100,000+ people were disrupted.

A human protest is one thing, bringing their (licenced) vehicles is another matter.

psni wrote: »

I've said it before when the taxi drivers did this the last time.

All it takes is a small number of people to take a note of all the taxi plate numbers causing these problems and make them available to a Hall of Shame site of some sort.

You forget about the defamation possibilities.

Shield

Victor wrote: »

You forget about the defamation possibilities.

There wouldn't be anything defamatory about stating "These taxis blocked the streets of Dublin on X date at X location between X and Y o'clock, and here are the photographs/youtube links to prove it".

A statement of fact is not defamation.