A new public sector agreement on the cards?

ParkRunner

This is very welcome and long overdue in my opinion. The intervention of the labour relations commission should bring more confidence and trust to the negotiations this time around.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0311/pay1.html

Talks between representatives of the Government and the public sector unions are to get under way tomorrow morning in an attempt to resolve the dispute over Government pay cuts.

The breakthrough came after the Taoiseach invited officers of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions to meet him, along with Finance Minister Brian Lenihan and Environment Minister John Gormley.

A government statement read: 'The meeting was called to explore the potential and appropriate conditions for a renewed engagement between public service unions and management, on the development of a comprehensive agenda for the transformation of public services and on a framework for public service pay determination.'

It was agreed that both sides would invite Labour Relations Commission Chief Executive Kieran Mulvey and Director of Conciliation Kevin Foley to act as facilitators to undertake initial discussions with public service management and unions.

While Mr Mulvey and Mr Foley have been appointed in a personal capacity, they will draw on the resources of the Labour Relations Commission to support their work.

The statement read: 'It was agreed that the facilitators should keep the Government and the ICTU appraised of progress in the conduct of the discussions with the parties, with the objective of concluding this facilitation process at the earliest possible date.'

It is understood that the first meeting will take place in the morning.

Head The Wall

Public sector people to agree with other public sector people what they will pay all public sector people with their and private sector taxes.:mad:

Sounds mental to me, there should be an private company brought in to do all this.

Idbatterim

Another waste of time! Do they understand that 55 billion is a hell of alot more than 33 billion? Ill tell you what they should do at the meeting tell the unions to come up with a way to save 2 billion through public sector reform and if they dont cut wages again! a few FF ministers have already threatened this! Things are going to get worse and worse in this country! I read a day or two ago that the EC are contemplating have guidelines to deal with PS throughout the union, funny that when you look at a country in economic trouble, the overstaffed, overpaid, inefficient PS are normally top pf the pile of probelms! I can only hope Ireland defaults and has to go to the EC for help and they sort out our problems once and for all!

ParkRunner

Head The Wall wrote: »

Public sector people to agree with other public sector people what they will pay all public sector people with their and private sector taxes.:mad:

Sounds mental to me, there should be an private company brought in to do all this.

The government has already proved they are more than willing to walk away from an agreement if they are not going to get what they want. I think it is a constructive and positive way of going forward compared with what is going on at present at least!

rightwingdub

For crying out loud the country is bankrupt, the government better not reverse the pay cuts:mad:

ixoy

I doubt they'd reverse the pay cuts. What I'd hope to see is that there's a promise for reform and, presumably in return, some guarantees that cuts would be restored once government finanes reach a certain figure (hopefully not a timeframe).
I'd like to think the government will push hard on reforms and various other areas but I' very cynical as to what we'll end up getting out of this.

ParkRunner

rightwingdub wrote: »

For crying out loud the country is bankrupt, the government better not reverse the pay cuts:mad:

We should get some indication tomorrow of what basis an agreement might be reached. I dont see any chance of paycuts being reversed in the short term at least but no doubt there will need to be some timescale advanced for reversing the cuts to strike a deal.

rightwingdub

EF wrote: »

We should get some indication tomorrow of what basis an agreement might be reached. I dont see any chance of paycuts being reversed in the short term at least but no doubt there will need to be some timescale advanced for reversing the cuts to strike a deal.

The pay cuts should not be reversed for at least 5 years and there should be redundancies as part of any agreement, there should be a no strike clause in the public sector, public offices should be open from 8am till 8pm xrays should be performed at weekends.

ParkRunner

rightwingdub wrote: »

The pay cuts should not be reversed for at least 5 years and there should be redundancies as part of any agreement, there should be a no strike clause in the public sector, public offices should be open from 8am till 8pm xrays should be performed at weekends.

An 8am-8pm core day was already on the cards before Christmas and it would be nice to be able to access public services alright during those hours. Whether or not theres enough staff left now after all the retirements/transfers to social welfare to have offices open for 12 hours Im not so sure

rightwingdub

EF wrote: »

An 8am-8pm core day was already on the cards before Christmas and it would be nice to be able to access public services alright during those hours. Whether or not theres enough staff left now after all the retirements/transfers to social welfare to have offices open for 12 hours Im not so sure

They can be transferred from another departments, what about all the admin staff in the HSE who have nothing to do all day.

Idbatterim

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

Idbatterim

On another note anyone who thinks its just a blip we are going through should read todays OECD report saying how Ireland will never recover to the way things were! lets no delude ourselves into thinking well all be back in celtic tiger land in 2 or 3 years, celtic gutter land more like!

Euro_Kraut

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

You advocating not paying your taxes? Sure FF have been doing that for year already.

oppenheimer1

EF wrote: »

We should get some indication tomorrow of what basis an agreement might be reached. I dont see any chance of paycuts being reversed in the short term at least but no doubt there will need to be some timescale advanced for reversing the cuts to strike a deal.

The only timescale that should be considered is that when exchequer returns return to the levels they once were at should the issue of pay be looked at. Can't afford it, can't pay it.

oppenheimer1

EF wrote: »

An 8am-8pm core day was already on the cards before Christmas and it would be nice to be able to access public services alright during those hours. Whether or not theres enough staff left now after all the retirements/transfers to social welfare to have offices open for 12 hours Im not so sure

If hours were extended, wouldn't that mean redundancies would be required? If you have the same amount of work, but more time to carry it out wouldn't that mean less people would be needed?

Euro_Kraut

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If hours were extended, wouldn't that mean redundancies would be required? If you have the same amount of work, but more time to carry it out wouldn't that mean less people would be needed?

My understanding is that the savings would be made through the non-payment of overtime. The actual working week of a Public Servant is unlikely to increase.

kippy

Head The Wall wrote: »

Public sector people to agree with other public sector people what they will pay all public sector people with their and private sector taxes.:mad:

Sounds mental to me, there should be an private company brought in to do all this.

A private company - paid by the public sector - biting the hand that feeds them etc etc....

ilovelamp2000

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

Wow.

It's only when you read posts like this that you realise just how ****ed we are as a country, with citizens as well informed as this fella we really are in the mire.

oppenheimer1

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

This would be the not-spending method of turning the economy around... INGENIOUS!

Count Dooku

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

You advocating not paying your taxes? Sure FF have been doing that for year already.

Ireland is not a big concentration camp like Cuba. People will run away to countries, where taxes are not so big, government more worry about creating new workplaces, public servants are not so greedy and doing something for their people.
Redistribution of money will not increase total amount money in circulation and as result tax take will decrease

Rosco1982 wrote: »

Wow.

It's only when you read posts like this that you realise just how ****ed we are as a country, with citizens as well informed as this fella we really are in the mire.

We are now where we are now only because incompetent Fianna Fail politicians accepted plans of even less competent public servants from DoF and Central Bank

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

This would be the not-spending method of turning the economy around... INGENIOUS!

Can anybody in public services think outside of books and realize that spending through using borrowed/collected from new taxes money in order to preserve living standards of PS workers will benefit only chinese factories, spanish resorts and commercial property landlords?
Ireland is not self-sufficient as USA in 1930’s

Nody

Count Dooku wrote: »

Can anybody in public services think outside of books and realize that spending through using borrowed/collected from new taxes money in order to preserve living standards of PS workers will benefit only chinese factories, spanish resorts and commercial property landlords?
Ireland is not self-sufficient as USA in 1930’s

Wrong question, the real question would be can the people in power (i.e. politicians and union leaders/extremists/hardliners) get it through their head because we've had several PS workers on the board who're fully up to speed on it.

deise blue

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

Hugely impressive rant.

Would have been even more impressive if Frontline was actually on the telly last night !!

Flex

If they make any agreement to reverse the pay cuts it would be a rather loud death knell for this country in terms of competitiveness. Our cost of labour is too high and we (especially the public sector it seems, unfortunately) have become too accustomed to a lifestyle we dont deserve to have. Ireland is a small peripheral island on the fringes of Europe with no strong indiginous exporters and really nothing that sets us apart from most of our competitors apart from low corporation tax and the fact we speak English as a first language.

As it stands our rates of pay are terribly high compared to other countries like the UK and (Id bet) every single other Eurozone country. Our public sector is the highest paid on earth and as such it shouldnt be surprising that while prices are dropping everywhere in the economy, government related prices continue to rise.

Freeze incremental pay increases indefinitely, in return for reform measures providing sufficient savings the government should offer to resume the (ridiculous) policy of non-performance based annual pay rises for the public sector via increments and not implement further paycuts, depending on certain factors (like deflation and the overall well being of the economy) and that in future pay cuts will not exceed the level of deflation occuring in the economy (and likewise, in periods of deflation pay rises will be reduced or even withheld). The pay cuts that have already transpired absolutely should not be reversed at any point.

Social welfare and public services being provided in Ireland at the moment need to be considerably reduced because we dont deserve them at their current standards and the reason for that is WE CANT AFFORD THEM. People need to start emailing and ringing government TD's (especially backbenchers) in their areas demanding they dont do a u-turn on this and tell them, regardless of whether you intend to vote for them or not, the government has their full support in taking whatever measures are needed to face down the unions, regardless of the inconvenience it will cause because its undeniably for the greater good of Ireland

bryaner

I still find it funny to see how so many gobsh1tes fell into the governments trap and believe that the PS broke the country. PS wages were mocked as close as 4 years ago, not doubting that major reform is needed..

I'm talking about ordinary PS workers which are the majority

Scofflaw

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

Less of this kind of thing, please. I'll remind those trash-talking the PS that PS workers also post on boards, and that calling people names from behind a keyboard doesn't contribute to the debate in any way.

moderately,
Scofflaw

stevoman

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

Am i missing something here? do public sector employee's pay no tax and its only private sector employee's that do.

ei.sdraob

stevoman wrote: »

Am i missing something here? do public sector employee's pay no tax and its only private sector employee's that do.

public sector paying taxes is an exercise in futility

real wealth is created by the export led portion of the private sector

the public serctor and the part of the private sector that services the export generating machine are just there to support the export facing part of the economy

no net exports, no wealth this can be clearly seen in countries such as UK and US which are stagnating while China, Germany and Japan are not doing too bad at all

you cant have an economy based on selling junk to one another, we tried that for last decade didnt work out to well, time to get back to the 90s when we had a proper export led growth which lifted all boats

Head The Wall

kippy wrote: »

A private company - paid by the public sector - biting the hand that feeds them etc etc....

Have you got a better solution - I would rather one company feeding at the trough than 300,000 people feeding at the trough. This is what has happened previously.

When I go in for a pay review I don't decide what I get my boss does. THis is how it's done in the REAL world. Again we have to point out how things are done properly

bryaner wrote: »

I still find it funny to see how so many gobsh1tes fell into the governments trap and believe that the PS broke the country. PS wages were mocked as close as 4 years ago, not doubting that major reform is needed..

I'm talking about ordinary PS workers which are the majority

None of the above is true, plenty of facts to debunk this union s**t talk in other threads. Wake up and smell the coffee

Smiegal

rightwingdub wrote: »

public offices should be open from 8am till 8pm

I wouldn't have any problem with this.... extra overtime every day.... ... Joke... I'm joking... calm down...

On a serious note though, it would not be a bad idea at all (excluding the overtime)

kippy

Head The Wall wrote: »

Have you got a better solution - I would rather one company feeding at the trough than 300,000 people feeding at the trough. This is what has happened previously.

When I go in for a pay review I don't decide what I get my boss does. THis is how it's done in the REAL world. Again we have to point out how things are done properly



None of the above is true, plenty of facts to debunk this union s**t talk in other threads. Wake up and smell the coffee

I dont particularily like your tone to be honest. Are you saying I have no idea how pay talks work in the "real" world? If that is what you are implying you are grossly incorrect.
I've had approximately 6 jobs in 10 years in the "real" world and am well versed in individualised pay and performance reviews where one negotiates pay on their own performance and the success of the organisation. I personally like those form of pay review as I generally perform well and add value to the organisation, value which is very easily quantified in a pay/performance review.

Now that I've said that perhaps you'll get off your high horse.

This private company that goes into the talks - what exactly would you expect them to achieve and what private company has the relevant expertise in this area? The LRC are about as down the middle as you can get.

You should really be asking why this government are still in office - perhaps the next one will look to changing things in the public service to better match conditions in the "real" world.

Despite what I may sound like, I amnt standing up for Unions or what has happened in the past in social partnership - however the condescending tone of some on here gets to me a little.

Oh and incase you missed it, the better solution is to move towards actual individual pay/performance reviews but thats gonna take time and the process starts with discussions with the representative groups.

murphaph

Totally agre with Flex. The country lost the run of itself at all levels. Wages and the standard of living simply need to fall to a level comensurate with an island on the edge of Europe with few indiginous industries and fewer natural resources. We are NOT Norway, Sweden or Finland with their oil, iron ore and timber resources. We could be better than Denmark though and harness our one natural resource of note...wind, but that's another debate.

For the moment we are a rock in the Atlantic whose in habitants speak English at a level roughly equivalent to most Dutch people...wow, big swizz. Ireland and the Irish need to understand that the game is up! Wages in all sectors must fall until they are competitive enough for us to encourage FDI again because we failed to develop indiginous industries during the 90's & 00's when we had the chance. the last decade has been all about buying and selling houses and not about exporting.

We need (as already mentioned) to get back to 1990's pay levels and begin an export led march out of recession. Everyone needs to keep the head down and work, for less money, harder and be glad that he or she doesn't have to emigrate. We then have to ensure that we don't build Celtic Pyramid 1.1 and instead develop indiginous industries...starting with renewable energy..something we KNOW we can export and we KNOW we can produce on this windswept rock in the Atlantic!

Welease

murphaph wrote: »

Totally agre with Flex. The country lost the run of itself at all levels. Wages and the standard of living simply need to fall to a level comensurate with an island on the edge of Europe with few indiginous industries and fewer natural resources. We are NOT Norway, Sweden or Finland with their oil, iron ore and timber resources. We could be better than Denmark though and harness our one natural resource of note...wind, but that's another debate.

For the moment we are a rock in the Atlantic whose in habitants speak English at a level roughly equivalent to most Dutch people...wow, big swizz. Ireland and the Irish need to understand that the game is up! Wages in all sectors must fall until they are competitive enough for us to encourage FDI again because we failed to develop indiginous industries during the 90's & 00's when we had the chance. the last decade has been all about buying and selling houses and not about exporting.

We need (as already mentioned) to get back to 1990's pay levels and begin an export led march out of recession. Everyone needs to keep the head down and work, for less money, harder and be glad that he or she doesn't have to emigrate. We then have to ensure that we don't build Celtic Pyramid 1.1 and instead develop indiginous industries...starting with renewable energy..something we KNOW we can export and we KNOW we can produce on this windswept rock in the Atlantic!

Everyone keeps ignoring it.. but wages and value are relative.. We don't necessarily have to race to the bottom in wage terms if people are willing provide more value for their current cost.

ixoy

So the unions are saying that they won't suspend any current action, including proposed strikes. They're also saying there'll be no basis for talks unless pay cuts reversed. This uncompromising stance is not a great start and we can but hope the government doesn't cave in.

On a side note: My wages are equivalent to Western European ones, if not a little lower than some in the UK for my profession. This is the same with a number of other people I know in the IT industry. Therefore I don't buy that we're all being paid far in excess of our European counterparts, only in some areas which includes the PS/CS.

WalterMitty

Of course massively overpaid FF politicians will cave in to the equally overpaid public sector, they are all piggies at the trough. Of course the private sector who ultimately pay the NET cost of running the country barely have any representation with only token IBEC group there who are closer to public sector than private sector in their ideology and policies.

How a secure, pensioned public sector who are among the best paid in world(even after cuts) can strike when their economy (gnp) has fallen 20% and is still falling and national debt is rocketing and will be 200billion in a few year and unemployemnt is at 15% is beyond me. Bizzare place IReland 2010 is. Look WE DONT HAVE THE MONEY TO PAY THE PROPERTY BUBBLE ERA PROMISED. GOVERNMENT SPENDING IS ALREADY OVER 50% OF GNP, MAKING THIS COUNTRY MORE STATE RUN THAN PRIVATELY RUN.:mad:

kippy

ixoy wrote: »

So the unions are saying that they won't suspend any current action, including proposed strikes. They're also saying there'll be no basis for talks unless pay cuts reversed. This uncompromising stance is not a great start and we can but hope the government doesn't cave in.

Yep,
Its a pretty stupid stance. But its to be expected.

I hope the government dont cave in but lets remember how these government have gotten us into this mess in the first place together with all the other vested interests.

Mountjoy Mugger

Idbatterim wrote: »

Im just watching Frontline, discussing the talks tomorrow, 3 union leaders on, talking throught their a** and lying through their teeth as usual! Its embarrasing! You know what? we the private sector workers and all private companies here, we are f***ing pathetic mugs and that includes myself! we have about 300,000 gobsh**es whos wages we pay thinking they should be living like royalty, while the rest of us go down the swanny! They are public servants, we pay their wages and they give us the middle finger. Their only interest is doing as little as they can get away with for the maximum they can extort from us, We pay their wages! Private business pays for every cent of the countries expenditure, money is power. Private sector employers wield all the power yet do not dictate to goverment what should happen! Businesses are going to the wall every day, businesses are doing everything possible to reduce costs and the costs of goverment services is going up! The unions have their list of demands, businesses here should have their list of demands and if the goverment dont meet them they should shut the country down! How a minority with no actual power are trying to call the shots on the silent ones with all the power is mind blowing and disgustingly depraved! Get all the big employers here together and let them wield their power in defence of the majority! This is a call to anyone who isnt a public sector worker, do I expect there to be rallies, marches, protests etc no... But one thing we can all do is hoard money, this doesnt require much effort, but if a considerable amount of us do it, the goverment will have to be bailed out by someone either the IMF or ECB and they will sort out our public service, thats a guarantee! ofcourse thier will be casualties along the way but I for one in this circumstance would be prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face!

The only public servant I'd have issue with is your English teacher for failing to educate you on the use of paragraphs.

smelly sock

As a civil servant this is very welcome. But the government should be warned that nothing will come of the talks if there are anymore pay cuts and current pay cuts that have been implemented should be recinded.

Idbatterim

I meant while wathching the Vincent Browne show on TV 3 last night, not Frontline! In my state of lividness, I obviously wasnt thinking straight, but I do stand by the rest of the post! Heres my arguament, the more you pay the PS, the less you have in employment in the rest of the economy! All the teachers were complaining yesterday that kids suffering do to the current action and a lack of tutor, special needs tutors etc! Well I have an answer, if your so concerned, offer more hours etc for free, or offer to cut your wages so more tutors etc can be taken on? Is that likely to happen? When hell freezes over!

murphaph

smelly sock wrote: »

As a civil servant this is very welcome. But the government should be warned that nothing will come of the talks if there are anymore pay cuts and current pay cuts that have been implemented should be recinded.

...and we're back to square one. How would you plug the 20bn gap every year without touching PS pay (which makes up a third of all government expenditure!)???? Just cut SW and capital spending and leave you alone is it?

Smiegal

ixoy wrote: »

So the unions are saying that they won't suspend any current action, including proposed strikes. They're also saying there'll be no basis for talks unless pay cuts reversed. This uncompromising stance is not a great start and we can but hope the government doesn't cave in.

On a side note: My wages are equivalent to Western European ones, if not a little lower than some in the UK for my profession. This is the same with a number of other people I know in the IT industry. Therefore I don't buy that we're all being paid far in excess of our European counterparts, only in some areas which includes the PS/CS.

Infairness to the Unions they were burnt by the Government the last time when they cancelled their proposed action for the sake of talks coming up to last Christmas and the Government just walked away from the talks. Irregardless of your point of view on the entire issue you can hardly expect them to the exact same again - although they have said an escalation is off the table whilst talks are ongoing. Credit where credit is due in fairness.

In response to you "side note", I agree with this entirely. There are those in both sectors who are overpaid and underworked. This will always be the case and nothing we or anyone can say or do will ever change this.

Taxipete29

smelly sock wrote: »

As a civil servant this is very welcome. But the government should be warned that nothing will come of the talks if there are anymore pay cuts and current pay cuts that have been implemented should be recinded.

No they shouldnt. There should be further cuts, for those at the top.

Smiegal

smelly sock wrote: »

As a civil servant this is very welcome. But the government should be warned that nothing will come of the talks if there are anymore pay cuts and current pay cuts that have been implemented should be recinded.

Smellysock, as a fellow Public servant I think we have to be realistic here. Of course the talks are welcome but I think to expect all pay cuts to be reversed is both unrealistic and unfair. I'm well aware of the argument that "we didn't cause this, why should we have to pay for it", but we need to sort this problem as a country... not as individual sectors (ie Public Sector v Private Sector). We have to play our part.

I know (as a frontline worker who has made huge differences to peoples lives) its tough reading some of the extremists/hardliners on the forum, but I think its important not to fall to their level and begin posting simialar posts but with the opposite agenda.

Paulzx

Reversal of pay cuts and pension levies is not going to happen. Anyone that believes this is living in cloud cuckoo land. All efforts at this stage re pay will be about ensuring there are no more pay cuts.

I think most public servants will grudgingly accept what has gone before. However, i have no doubt that any indication of definite future paycuts will lead to widespread strike action.

Idbatterim

Thanks for expressing a concern about my English mountjoy mugger! That must be a result of the 15 years of poor English teaching! Rest assured though, Im sure my 15 year private education at over €3000 per year, has left me nearly as well rounded as yourself!

poolboy

I am a public sector worker in what has become known as the frontline area.
I accepted the pay cuts as a necessity for the good of the country and an investment in my childrens future. I am so annoyed by being lectured to by private sector workers who somehow believe they are more valuable to the country than me, this "real world" and "I pay your wages" nonsense is really infuriating. My next door neighbour whose house is rented being paid for by HSE shouted across the wall at me last week as i left for night duty how it was "well for me with a cushy job to go to" i know this man for 20 years 15 of which he was on the dole while working in the much lauded private sector for cash, new car every 2 years, kids to disneyland for their birthdays and im to blame for the state of the country, get real people. To finish i do not support my unions stance of reversal of pay cuts or nothing and i am not alone, all i want is a gaurentee that the pain i and my family have taken is not for nothing and that any further measures needed will be directed at the high earners public and private who are the real causes of the situation we ALL find ourselves in.

Mountjoy Mugger

Idbatterim wrote: »

Thanks for expressing a concern about my English mountjoy mugger! That must be a result of the 15 years of poor English teaching! Rest assured though, Im sure my 15 year private education at over €3000 per year, has left me nearly as well rounded as yourself!

I am rather portly, come to think of it.

ParkRunner

ixoy wrote: »

So the unions are saying that they won't suspend any current action, including proposed strikes. They're also saying there'll be no basis for talks unless pay cuts reversed. This uncompromising stance is not a great start and we can but hope the government doesn't cave in.

On a side note: My wages are equivalent to Western European ones, if not a little lower than some in the UK for my profession. This is the same with a number of other people I know in the IT industry. Therefore I don't buy that we're all being paid far in excess of our European counterparts, only in some areas which includes the PS/CS.

They are discussing the strikes today so I would expect the escalation will be called off in the very near future. Asking for the paycuts to be reversed is only a negotiation tactic. They are hardly going to say we'll forget about the cuts altogether. Similarly the government are equally playing hardball at the start but no doubt both sides will start making concessions if we are going to have any hope of a deal by easter.

jaykayphd

smelly sock wrote: »

As a civil servant this is very welcome. But the government should be warned that nothing will come of the talks if there are anymore pay cuts and current pay cuts that have been implemented should be recinded.

Yeah Im sure this would go down well with the money markets who are funding this country at the moment! Sure what's 20 billion??....have another 20 billion!

ixoy

poolboy wrote: »

I am so annoyed by being lectured to by private sector workers who somehow believe they are more valuable to the country than me, this "real world" and "I pay your wages" nonsense is really infuriating.

Well naturally it's infuriating - unless you don't pay tax (which you would). In fact, in a roundabout fashion, it could be seen that you're paying to work in your job!
The difference of course is that, from the State's coffers point-of-view, you are ultimately a net financial drain. You cost more than your taxes will ever bring in. Even if you spent all your money in Ireland, the amount returned via VAT, VRT, etc. would not make it up. Regardless of the other value you add with your services, that is the financial bottom line that has some private sector venting, although the way in which it's often done is both rude and ignorant.

i know this man for 20 years 15 of which he was on the dole while working in the much lauded private sector for cash, new car every 2 years, kids to disneyland for their birthdays and im to blame for the state of the country, get real people.

Well it sounds like your neighbour is committing fraud. He's hardly an example to anyone! But the likes of him are far more deserving of anger than any public servant.

To finish i do not support my unions stance of reversal of pay cuts or nothing and i am not alone, all i want is a gaurentee that the pain i and my family have taken is not for nothing and that any further measures needed will be directed at the high earners public and private who are the real causes of the situation we ALL find ourselves in.

The problem is that it can't all be solve by targetting high earners. There's not enough of them and not enough wealth between them. Also if you target them too much, they'll just leave. It might seem like no bad thing but some of them got where they were because they created business and employment for many others.

Unfortunately, I can't see anything but more pain. Tax will need to be redesigned and result in everyone having less money. Public servants probably will be hit in terms of numbers, maybe pay freezes on increments as well but no more direct cuts.

All in all, regardles of what comes of these talks, we are all truly going to get screwed over by this government in some shape or form for many years to come regardless of any individual responsibility. Da fundamentals of the economy's state are sound now Bertie, but only in the sense they're clearly shattered.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

deise blue

From today's papers and listening to Pat Kenny and Eamon Keane there are strong suggestions that if transformations can be made and are cost effective then certainly there will be scope to reinstate previous pay scales.

Is this the same suggestion that the Government walked away from in December ?