Court case sucesses

Grizzly 45

Apprently there was another victory for us gunowners today in Tralee DC.
That now puts it at 5 to 1 in our favour of cases down this side of the country.Rumour has it ,also a bunch of lads got theirs in the Kildare area?
Great to hear,and shame on the Minister and Gardai for letting it come to this stage of wasted Garda manhours,taxpayers money and stress caused.I really hope they also applied for ,and got their costs as well.

Might be an idea for here to start reporting in sucess stories and use this thread for a "drop in " for the press clippings,so the mods can then post them to the appropriate locked thread?

freddieot

Excellent stuff

rowa

anymore info on the kildare lads ? was it the courts overturning the refusals or a chief super with a bit of grey matter and a mind of his own granting them ?

bunny shooter

3 x friends of mine in court this Friday

meathshooter1

bunny shooter wrote: »

3 x friends of mine in court this Friday

How did they get on?

daveob007

Just wondering if anyone has lost their district court appeal? and if so whats the next stage,high court?

rowa

daveob007 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone has lost their district court appeal? and if so whats the next stage,high court?

They all seem to be getting put back until september , maybe there is something going on behind the scenes that we don't as yet know about , another chief superintendents witches sabbath maybe :rolleyes: .

bunny shooter

meathshooter1 wrote: »

How did they get on?

Waiting to hear

As soon as I hear I'll post it here

meathshooter1

rowa wrote: »

They all seem to be getting put back until september , maybe there is something going on behind the scenes that we don't as yet know about , another chief superintendents witches sabbath maybe :rolleyes: .

Mine was put back back till may wonder are they going to compensate for wasting a whole years club membership and alarm monitoring fees plus storage fees and last but not leased legal fees,probably a shuffle in the ranks thats why the delay when is the commissioner retiring? or waiting for pending supreme court cases to finish since they seem to be losing in the district court one thing is for sure there is still no uniformity and equality even at senior level

Grizzly 45

Fact! The only way to get that kind of compensation is a joint or seperate action against Dermot Aherne and Factna Murphy for this loss of monies and time...Not to mind stress,trauma and whatever else a most litigatious barrister can throw at them:mad:
As for Sept,reckon it is until the Supreme court decides on the Charlton decision.

daveob007

just wondering if there will be any discrimination cases from all of this,ie if a particular judge grants one person and refuses another on exactly the same grounds.
one thing for sure is that this is going to go on for a good while yet..

locum-motion

daveob007 wrote: »

just wondering if there will be any discrimination cases from all of this,ie if a particular judge grants one person and refuses another on exactly the same grounds.
one thing for sure is that this is going to go on for a good while yet..

There are 9 grounds upon which it is illegal to discriminate in this country:
1. Gender
2. Marital Status
3. Family Status
4. Sexual Orientation
5. Religion
6. Age
7. Disability
8. Race
9. Membership of the Traveller Community.

So, unless the judge is stupid enough to only grant licences to straight white male married Catholics, aged 25-55, with kids, four working limbs and a semi-detached house, the answer to your question is going to be "No".

(OK, that's a facetious answer, but you get my drift, I'm sure!)

rowa

locum-motion wrote: »

There are 9 grounds upon which it is illegal to discriminate in this country:
1. Gender
2. Marital Status
3. Family Status
4. Sexual Orientation
5. Religion
6. Age
7. Disability
8. Race
9. Membership of the Traveller Community.

So, unless the judge is stupid enough to only grant licences to straight white male married Catholics, aged 25-55, with kids, four working limbs and a semi-detached house, the answer to your question is going to be "No".

(OK, that's a facetious answer, but you get my drift, I'm sure!)

ok , but you get cases for instance of two guys both in their 30's living in the same district , have similar pistols , are in the same club and are as active in shooting and competing as each other and yet one is granted a licence and the other is not.

that to me is discrimination .

pedroeibar1

rowa wrote: »

ok , but you get cases for instance of two guys both in their 30's living in the same district , have similar pistols , are in the same club and are as active in shooting and competing as each other and yet one is granted a licence and the other is not.

Do you? Has this actually happened? Where?
If it did happen, on refusal the senior FO and Super would have to give a reason and it would have to be acceptable to the Court. What the Yanks call "just cause" is a similar requirement this side of the pond.
P.

locum-motion

rowa wrote: »

ok , but you get cases for instance of two guys both in their 30's living in the same district , have similar pistols , are in the same club and are as active in shooting and competing as each other and yet one is granted a licence and the other is not.

that to me is discrimination .

On what grounds?
As I said there's 9 of them. It's perfectly legal to discriminate on the grounds that you dislike someone, or that the Super or Judge or whoever thought one of them was a bit shifty when they met. Unless the two guys are different in one of those specific nine ways, there's no discrimination case. If one was gay and one wasn't, then there might be a case, but AFAIK (and IANAL) the person discriminated against would need to be able to show that his sexuality was the grounds used for refusal.

I'm sorry, but just because that's discrimination to you, it doesn't mean that it is to the law.

knockon

rowa wrote: »

ok , but you get cases for instance of two guys both in their 30's living in the same district , have similar pistols , are in the same club and are as active in shooting and competing as each other and yet one is granted a licence and the other is not.

that to me is discrimination .

Bang on (if you pardon the pun). Although I think it's more incompetance rather than discrimination.

I used to shoot a Sig Pro 9mm and a .22 Mosquito at my range. My buddy also ownes a Sig pro 9mm and shoots at the same range. Buddy Number 2 has a .22 Mosquito as well. So here is the present circumstances.

Knockon.

1. No Sig Pro 9mm and no .22 mosquito as it's in storage in a gun dealers costing €5 a week.
2. Not a member of the range anymore.
3. Looking at a present legal bill of 2K (so far) - we won't expand any more on that as the walls have ears.
4. Applied on Oct 29th 2009 and refused both licenses by the CS on his last day in the job on Nov 16th.

Knockon's Buddy No. 1

1. Has his Sig Pro in his gun safe.
2. Member of the range.
3. Using the 2k to go on vacation with the wife and kids for a week in Lahinch.
4. Applied to another G.S. as he is living 5 miles away from me and his application did not make the "Cull of Nov 16th". Neither he nor I have no idea why.

Knockon's Buddy No. 2

1. Has his .22 Mosquito in his gun safe.
2. Member of the range.
3. Using his 2K to put shoes and clothes on the kids.
4. Also applied to another G.S. as in Buddy No 1 above.

So as Rowa pointed out similar, age, same Garda District, members of the same club, travelled in each other cars, compete against each other at the range etc. Buddies 3, 4 and 5 are in the same boat as myself all courtesy of the old CS in Henry St Limerick who like his counterparts all over the State had'nt the balls to make the decision themselves and have left us swimming in the manure. "Good Reason"...FFS... they don't know the meaning of Reason.

By the way it's March 30th for the D.C. but surprise surprise the State may be putting it back. Its no surprise when you hear the crap Inspector Clouseau Brooks was coming up with in the cases the State lost in Cork and Kerry. Surely the penny has dropped that quoting Janes Military Firearms reference books and "I saw a Range on Youtube once" is not earning any Kudos with the Courts.

Ok ... deep breaths...

rowa

no apparently youtube and wikipedia are old hat and now its standing up in the dock and trying to say "dunblane" as many times as possible in connection with your pistol.

love to shoot

knockon wrote: »

Bang on (if you pardon the pun). Although I think it's more incompetance rather than discrimination.

I used to shoot a Sig Pro 9mm and a .22 Mosquito at my range. My buddy also ownes a Sig pro 9mm and shoots at the same range. Buddy Number 2 has a .22 Mosquito as well. So here is the present circumstances.

Knockon.

1. No Sig Pro 9mm and no .22 mosquito as it's in storage in a gun dealers costing €5 a week.
2. Not a member of the range anymore.
3. Looking at a present legal bill of 2K (so far) - we won't expand any more on that as the walls have ears.
4. Applied on Oct 29th 2009 and refused both licenses by the CS on his last day in the job on Nov 16th.

Knockon's Buddy No. 1

1. Has his Sig Pro in his gun safe.
2. Member of the range.
3. Using the 2k to go on vacation with the wife and kids for a week in Lahinch.
4. Applied to another G.S. as he is living 5 miles away from me and his application did not make the "Cull of Nov 16th". Neither he nor I have no idea why.

Knockon's Buddy No. 2

1. Has his .22 Mosquito in his gun safe.
2. Member of the range.
3. Using his 2K to put shoes and clothes on the kids.
4. Also applied to another G.S. as in Buddy No 1 above.

So as Rowa pointed out similar, age, same Garda District, members of the same club, travelled in each other cars, compete against each other at the range etc. Buddies 3, 4 and 5 are in the same boat as myself all courtesy of the old CS in Henry St Limerick who like his counterparts all over the State had'nt the balls to make the decision themselves and have left us swimming in the manure. "Good Reason"...FFS... they don't know the meaning of Reason.

By the way it's March 30th for the D.C. but surprise surprise the State may be putting it back. Its no surprise when you hear the crap Inspector Clouseau Brooks was coming up with in the cases the State lost in Cork and Kerry. Surely the penny has dropped that quoting Janes Military Firearms reference books and "I saw a Range on Youtube once" is not earning any Kudos with the Courts.

Ok ... deep breaths...

`

in the same area refused .22 and 9mm suprised to hear he issued any i dont know anybody around who got anything loads thay were refused but i think it is all down to him. took the bull by the horns just before christmas picked one of the list went to station asked for FO asked for what (doooo) showed a printout of what i wanted one garda said no chance i said its on the list the decision can be made here. the super came down said he cant refuse all boxes ticked asked how long for approval he said it's done give in paper work. went home phoned dealer got number put in paper work that day letter two days later it will take upto 3 months for approval licence first post after christmas. fastest i ever had so i think our chief super just dosent like guns or has no balls. and i still dont have it DOJ only gave import a few days ago over 3 months later but will i have some fun when i get it the rifle needs a rest but not for long.
because as the name says love to shoot if all else fails i have my bow and slingshot:pac::pac::pac::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

ps........ still fighting the others because there mine

Grizzly 45

rowa wrote: »

no apparently youtube and wikipedia are old hat and now its standing up in the dock and trying to say "dunblane" as many times as possible in connection with your pistol.

And actual REVELANCE to the Irish situation would be precisely???
FFS! Scaremongering of incidents outside the juristiction of the Irish bananna Republic is now evidence in an Irish court???:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Oh well then police brutality is totally endemic ,or will happen in the future in the Gardai...Because the UK police forces regulary beat up and threatened "Thick Paddies" or "provo Bstads" living in the UK in the same time frame of Dunblane and Hungerford, and because the Gardai have regular contacts with the UK police forces going by that "logical arguement".:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

pedroeibar1

knockon wrote: »

big snip.........the old CS in Henry St Limerick who like his counterparts all over the State had'nt the balls to make the decision themselves and have left us swimming in the manure........... .big snip

Good post. I actually wonder about the role of the CS's and the DoJ/MoJ in this.
I believe it's part of the "blame game" where the Min/DoJ are trying to cover ass by offloading the decision onto the local gardai. So, if anything goes wrong the politicos can blame the local gardai. That was made quite clear in my view by responses to the Parliamentary questions asked by (I think) Michael Noonan.
Make sure that your solicitor includes your storage costs in your claim.
Best of luck with the action,
P.

Vegeta

Hey folks we don't expect literary masterpieces but can we ask that people make an effort with punctuation and the structure of their posts.

love to shoot I'm looking at you

Thanks

rowa

anymore successes or failures in the courts recently ? it seems to have gone quiet court-wise in the past couple of weeks .

hk

Apparently there was a case/cases lost in dundalk last week, would be interested in hearing any details!!

Sparks

From the District Court Clerk:

An appeal was refused at Dundalk Court on 25.3.2010.
No written judgement is available.
There are a number of appeals still in the list on various dates in
April May and June on the second Tuesdays.

The Court agreed with the views expressed by Chief Supt. Magee but the DCC didn't recall the specifics of those offhand - this was a reserved decision from the hearing of evidence on Feb.9 this year.

hk

thanks sparks, its about as much as i heard, apparently the judge made a comment that if the CS was not willing to grant them then neither was he, a worrying development for the above mentioned cases still pending

Bananaman

If that is the case then he has made his decision regardless of the evidence before him or the requirements under law so there is ample grounds for appeal to a higher court.

B'Man

BornToKill

Bananaman wrote: »

If that is the case then he has made his decision regardless of the evidence before him or the requirements under law so there is ample grounds for appeal to a higher court.

B'Man

Ample grounds indeed; a rumour based on an anonymous account of an unreported case. The appeal should be lodged immediately.

hk

BornToKill wrote: »

Ample grounds indeed; a rumour based on an anonymous account of an unreported case. The appeal should be lodged immediately.

Agreed, but its hard not to be frustrated! I am hoping the full facts come to light sooner rather than later. Interestingly this is the ministers home constituency!! Not that id be implying anything by that, its just interesting is all

Grizzly 45

Lot of funny things go on in Min Ahernes constituency.Like people running combat courses with self awarded medals and baronies.:rolleyes:
So somthing like that wouldnt be out of the norm.:rolleyes:

Sparks

BornToKill wrote: »

Ample grounds indeed; a rumour based on an anonymous account of an unreported case. The appeal should be lodged immediately.

Er, it's not anonymous, that's the account from the District Court Clerk (you can just call these folks up or email them y'know).

BornToKill

Sparks, I wasn't referring to your post but unless the DC Clerk went on to ascribe to the judge the views hk claims he made public then the relevant part is indeed anonymous,

hk wrote: »

apparently the judge made a comment that if the CS was not willing to grant them then neither was he, a worrying development for the above mentioned cases still pending

guns4fun

Quick question for ye.
If I get refused by a cs or super I can appeal.
Can a cs appeal if a district court judge decides to grant my cert???

rowa

guns4fun wrote: »

Quick question for ye.
If I get refused by a cs or super I can appeal.
Can a cs appeal if a district court judge decides to grant my cert???

if a cs or super refuses you , you can appeal within 30 days , as for a cs appealing you being granted a licence by the court , i don't know , but i am sure the cs would have to have very good grounds to do so ,

Grizzly 45

Early intell says 6 more liscenses granted today in "de Kingdom" in Tralee.:D.That would now put it 75% in our favour for wins.
Think we will all have to move down to Kerry folks.:eek::D

Mods,any chance we stick this thread in a combined Press clippings and Court case sucess sticky??

lead loader

Howya lads! I was just wondering if there has been anymore results from the District Courts around the country? My case was in court yesterday, Gardai Looked for a date in May for a full hearing. The Inspector in court told the Judge that the case was being fully contested:rolleyes:

bunny shooter

3 x friends of mine currently in court on a full hearing

lead loader

Hope all goes well for them bunny! let us know how they get on please. Do you know whether they intend to seek costs if they are successful??

rowa

and to spite the successes in the courts the gardai continue to refuse licences , this will lead to more wasted time in courts for both the gardai (at the tax payers expense) and people taking time off work, college etc, at their own expense of both time and money.
there must be some law about wasting people's time with vexatious court cases.

Rew

Any updates, my own is up for mention very soon....

bunny shooter

My friends are getting a judgement in a few weeks

Grizzly 45

Another three in Kerry upheld.Costs asked for and refused.So here comes another High Court judical review.:rolleyes:Meantime the drug dealers, bankers and scumbags stalk our land with impunity.:rolleyes::mad:

fourtycoats

7 cases up for mention in the Bray District Court today. Lawyers for the appellants argued that the Garda refusals were of a "blanket" type and that the Gardai gave no specific reasons why the applications were refused. The lawyers asked that the judge issue an order to the Gardai, requesting them to give specific reasons so that a proper appeal could be formulated for each case. In particular it was stated that the appellants had previously been granted licenses and had spent a lot of money meeting the requirements of the new legislation also that nothing had changed in the circumstances of the appellants or was contained in the new legislation which would have justified a refusal. Hence, in the circumstances it was appropriate that the Gardai give their reasons. The Judge agreed, the reasons were requested and a date set in June to hear the appeals. The lawyers also requested, and were granted, anonymity for the appellants with no publication of names or addresses.

sfakiaman

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Another three in Kerry upheld.Costs asked for and refused.So here comes another High Court judical review.:rolleyes:Meantime the drug dealers, bankers and scumbags stalk our land with impunity.:rolleyes::mad:

Same old story, we're all equal under the law as long as we can afford it!:(

BornToKill

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Another three in Kerry upheld.Costs asked for and refused.So here comes another High Court judical review.

Are you saying that if the District Court finds in the appelant's favour a High Court Judicial Review can still be taken over costs? Are you sure about that?

Rew wrote: »

Any updates, my own is up for mention very soon....

That's interesting. Whereabouts?

Grizzly 45

BornToKill wrote: »

Are you saying that if the District Court finds in the appelant's favour a High Court Judicial Review can still be taken over costs? Are you sure about that?

Dunno about that BTK.I'm just passing on the info as I get it.

happyjack

My own case's in Kerry have gone banana shaped, I'll fill you all in when it gets sorted out. But take it from me, the Gardai are still fighting against issuing any class of restricted firearms license in Kerry. They are making each and every restricted license holder appeal and got to court, and they are only issuing licenses if the Judge is O'Connor, because he has found in our favor in the past.

Strange thing is that most ordinary Gardai are totally unaware that all of this is coming out of their yearly over time budget! My JR was the first HC case where the Gardai had to pay their own legal costs. Please lads, when you are talking to your local Garda, explain that this effects them now financially.
In the past it didn't, but now it does. The money for the legal bill has to come from somewhere, this is their blind spot, and thats where we need to keep the pressure on. It's all fun and games till your looking at a couple of million euro wasted.

Happy Jack in the Kingdom

BornToKill

Yesterday and today in the Supreme Court:

Supreme Court: 27th April 2010

Mr. Justice Fennelly
Mrs. Justice Macken
Mr. Justice O'Donnell
At 11 o'clock
At Hearing
44/05 McVeigh -v- Minister for J E & LR
413/08 Magee -v- Murray
11/09 McCarron -v- Kearney

Grizzly 45

Another win.Judge stated in his summing up that he is satisfied that WA1500 is a ligitmate sport and that the appelant had good & sufficent reason.
First time that I've heard Costs have been awarded against the Gardai too by a DJ.:D
Long may that trend continue.

rowa

i seen a refusal upheld in court too today, it was in the paper , for a 9mm pistol :mad:

knockon

My monthly blowout.....

I see he kept the .22 and the .38 revolver. Rovi will be adding the clipping shortly but has a bit of editing to do as the security aware press have named and addressed the appellant in one of the rags.

"We don't want you to have the 9mm as it too dangerous but we have named you to tell all the scumbags you have 2 more in the house"

Interesting to see that clown Ahern on Prime Time last night saying that "The Government will not be found wanting in the fight against crime despite the financial situation". The majority of the Rank and File Members will tell you they are driving death traps with over 100,000 miles on the clock. A Sgt I know is driving the K9 van in Limerick MINUS the Mutt as there are'nt any vehicles left or Mutts for that matter. As someone pointed out the unfortunate Mules have no idea their bosses are urinating all over the overtime budgets on these frivilious court cases as the money used in the DC is out of the Supers coffers.

Regarding Ahern - As he correctly pointed out he is a Solicitor - we all know what kind of morals those people have. It could have been a blood bath if he turned up at the GRA confrence yesterday (pity he did'nt).

tonysopprano

BornToKill wrote: »

Yesterday and today in the Supreme Court:

Supreme Court: 27th April 2010

Mr. Justice Fennelly
Mrs. Justice Macken
Mr. Justice O'Donnell
At 11 o'clock
At Hearing
44/05 McVeigh -v- Minister for J E & LR
413/08 Magee -v- Murray
11/09 McCarron -v- Kearney

Judgement reserved, at least in the Mc Carron case. Anyone hear anything else?