cats v's wildlife

wildlifeboy

how do cat lovers justify letting their beloved pets roam outside of the house unchecked and in turn being responsible for a huge ammount of song bird fatalities? Does that bell really work? Can a cat learn to move stealthily enough to supress the tone? what do cat lovers think? are cats the killers that we are told they are? do you keep your cat indoors? Discuss...

seamus

Cats will generally only kill birds on any major scale if the cat is unfed. They will kill for sport from time to time (to keep their hunting skills sharp), but a cat which is well fed will rarely come home with a dead bird. This isn't some "balance of nature" thing, it's an evolutionary response. There's little logic in expending your energy to capture something which won't be used as food.

Bells generally work, though most cat owners will tell you that a cat will go through many bells in their lifetime, so it's when the cat has managed to lose all their bells that they'll inevitably come home with a "present".

wildlifeboy

seamus wrote: »

Cats will generally only kill birds on any major scale if the cat is unfed. They will kill for sport from time to time (to keep their hunting skills sharp),

You dont seriously believe that statement. I would have thought that even with a limited knowledge of Cat behaviour that that statement is simply untrue. Cat will kill on a full belly just as easily as with an empty one.

seamus

wildlifeboy wrote: »

You dont seriously believe that statement. I would have thought that even with a limited knowledge of Cat behaviour that that statement is simply untrue. Cat will kill on a full belly just as easily as with an empty one.

They will kill, but not nearly as often.

peasant

wildlifeboy wrote: »

You dont seriously believe that statement. I would have thought that even with a limited knowledge of Cat behaviour that that statement is simply untrue. Cat will kill on a full belly just as easily as with an empty one.

Depends one the cat
In our case one out of three well fed cats go hunting, two out of three don't.

You can significantly lower the "success rate" of the cat though. Cats' hunting techniques are at their most sucessful around dusk or dawn. Keep them in during those hours (and at night)

stevoman

the same debate was wrangled on nature and bird watching recently

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055846638

IvySlayer

I remember when my cat brought home robin she hunted. She was so proud.

HermitHorace

Our cat has happily landed a number of dead animals on our doorstep, before and after her dinner.

She's always quite pleased with herself.

GigaByte

One of my cats has only managed to catch 2 birds in 3 years and the other one has never managed to catch any, yet.

It's funny watching her try!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

seamus wrote: »

Cats will generally only kill birds on any major scale if the cat is unfed.

I couldn't stop laughing when I read that someone actually believes this. You are serious, aren't you?

Cats will kill birds and small mammals if well fed or not. FACT.
Study after study has shown the drastic predation from domestic Cats. And we are talking about pets here not feral cats.

Please do not judge the impact your cat has on the number of "presents" brought to you over the years. Cats that have access to birds or that are allowed to roam unchecked, will and do kill wildlife.

seamus

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

I couldn't stop laughing when I read that someone actually believes this. You are serious, aren't you?

Cats will kill birds and small mammals if well fed or not. FACT.

I didn't say that they wouldn't.

An individual cat will not spend vast amounts of its time chasing birds and vermin if it has a full belly and a place to sleep. Obviously it will on occasion, but versus an unfed cat which will spend most of its waking hours chasing smaller animals for food, a fed cat will not. Obviously.

I never made any comment as to the impact of domestic cats on local bird populations. While one well fed cat may not have any significant impact on a local bird population, 50 well fed cats crammed into half a square kilometre will have a serious impact because they will still occassionally hunt.

There's also the problem of part-time owners - people who throw their cat out in the morning, feed it one pouch of whiskas when they get home at night and then throw it out again before they go to bed. A cat has no idea about how much it should eat and if it's hungry or bored it will go off and find something to kill.

I imagine the impact on bird populations could be drastically reduced if people were legally required to take their cats indoors after lighting-up time.

planetX

Afraid cats hunt for pleasure, some more than others. And living where I do I'm bloody glad they do - mine can catch a mouse within 5 min of being let out. They catch rats too. Unfortunately the odd bird too. But cats are predators, birds are prey - it pretty much evens out here in the countryside where all the natural predators have been eliminated, and there isn't a huge concentration of cats. I can see that it would be more devastating on bird populations in built up areas. I feel a lot worse about the birds I've hit while driving

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

seamus wrote: »

...but versus an unfed cat which will spend most of its waking hours chasing smaller animals for food, a fed cat will not. Obviously.

Not obvious at all. Whether or not the Cat is well fed does not take from the massive amount of deaths they are responsible for. The killing for food V sport angle does not hold up in fact, be it obvious to you or not.

While one well fed cat may not have any significant impact on a local bird population

Oh! but it will if it's allowed roam.

I imagine the impact on bird populations could be drastically reduced if people were legally required to take their cats indoors after lighting-up time.

Certainly would have a dramtic affect and would be a very good start. I'd still put a condition though that Cats, just like Dogs, are not permitted to roam freely.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Cats, just like Dogs, are not permitted to roam freely.

No chance!

Since I got a cat, bird **** on my car has dropped dramatically.

PaulB91

seamus wrote: »

An individual cat will not spend vast amounts of its time chasing birds and vermin if it has a full belly and a place to sleep. Obviously it will on occasion, but versus an unfed cat which will spend most of its waking hours chasing smaller animals for food, a fed cat will not. Obviously.

surely a well fed/rested cat will have more energy to hunt than a half starved stray?

if you compare them with wild cats e.g. Lions, Leopards etc - they hunter better when they have plenty of food

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

No chance!

Since I got a cat, bird **** on my car has dropped dramatically.

Probably meant to be funny but it's far from it on so many fronts. Bad Taste. Bad Language (**** joke really! ). Adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Disruptive. Infantile at best.:mad:

star-pants

Just pointing out there is a 'report post' function if you've an issue with a post

seamus

PaulB91 wrote: »

surely a well fed/rested cat will have more energy to hunt than a half starved stray?

if you compare them with wild cats e.g. Lions, Leopards etc - they hunter better when they have plenty of food

But they rarely hunt unnecessarily. Cats have very poor stamina and are good at short chases, but not good over long distances like dogs are, for example. This is why they stalk their prey before pouncing instead of just going for it.

But since a chase takes considerable energy for a cat, it makes no sense to hunt when you don't need to eat and cats spend most of their time resting - they won't waste energy unnecessarily hunting.

This is primarily what I'm basing my opinion on. However, studies have shown that domestic cats tend to remain in a somewhat kitten-like state through most of their adult life (because they never need to "move out"), and kittens *do* hunt for sport as a means of practicing their hunting skills for when they get older.
So I could be mistaken in that regard and adult domestic cats are likely to hunt for sport because of their kitten-like nature.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Probably meant to be funny but it's far from it on so many fronts. Bad Taste. Bad Language (**** joke really! ). Adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Disruptive. Infantile at best.:mad:

Oh my god! You are a very very grumpy person

Anyway I'd rather have cats keeping the rat and mice population down and if birds get in the way, tough. You've probably killed more birds than my cats driving about the place. You should be banned from driving?

Judging from my own research which is far more accurate than yours the bird population is under no threat from house cats.

PaulB91

GigaByte wrote: »

Oh my god! You are a very very grumpy person

Anyway I'd rather have cats keeping the rat and mice population down and if birds get in the way, tough. You've probably killed more birds than my cats driving about the place. You should be banned from driving?

Judging from my own research which is far more accurate than yours the bird population is under no threat from house cats.

i'm interested in this bird being killed while driving argument, i have been driving for 17 years, 12 years of which almost every day, in UK and Ireland and not once killed a bird with my car

GigaByte

PaulB91 wrote: »

i'm interested in this bird being killed while driving argument, i have been driving for 17 years, 12 years of which almost every day, in UK and Ireland and not once killed a bird with my car

Its most likely you did but didn't even notice... I've been driving for about the same time as you and I've never had a car crash but crashes happen every day. Alan Stacey was kill at Belgain F1 Grand Prix when he was hit in the face by a bird!!!

Indy Car + bird
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T565zcSdAzE

I have hit 2 birds in the past when they have flown out from a ditch and under the car, I'm sure most drivers will have at some point just missed a bird like that, its the ones you don't see that get killed.

PaulB91

i'm pretty certain i would notice a bird hitting my car and would confidently say i never have - mind you i don't do F1 very often anymore - oh i never crashed my car either

planetX

PaulB91 wrote: »

i'm interested in this bird being killed while driving argument, i have been driving for 17 years, 12 years of which almost every day, in UK and Ireland and not once killed a bird with my car

Depends on the environment. Here the roads are lined with tall hedges and birds tend to launch out into the road, so bird strikes are all too common. Sad.

GigaByte

PaulB91 wrote: »

i'm pretty certain i would notice a bird hitting my car and would confidently say i never have - mind you i don't do F1 very often anymore - oh i never crashed my car either

Lets hope it stays that way then. Another one you probably will be surprised about is that the biggest killer of birds is in fact the glass window! :eek: They think it could be responsible for up to a billion bird deaths a year!!!

PaulB91

now that one i have no problem with - must have seen about a dozen birds kill themselves flying into glass windows

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

You've probably killed more birds than my cats driving about the place. You should be banned from driving?

Judging from my own research which is far more accurate than yours the bird population is under no threat from house cats.

Now you have really lost the plot. I actually spend my life working with and protecting Nature/Wildlife. It's my job. I certainly have not killed anything like the number of birds in my lifetime that the average Domestic Cat does every year.
Your Research? What research? I have studied 7 major international reports on the subject involving hundreds of manyears of research and taken part in a couple of British and Irish research projects on the subject. So, I doubt very much if your research is accurate at all.
It is sheer fallacy to state that birds are under no threat from house cats. I'll play your semantic game and acknowledge the swift change from Domestic Cat to House Cat. But the evidence still shows that even Cats kept indoors for 20 hours per day kill birds and small mammals. This killing is not a natural thing. The level of predation does impact on local populations and bells etc do not work.
Sorry for keeping on about this matter but dis-information such as yours above does nothing for either side of the argument/discussion and prevents people getting a true picture.

Orla K

wildlifeboy wrote: »

how do cat lovers justify letting their beloved pets roam outside of the house unchecked

Why should a cat owner justify letting their cats outside? It's been discussed here a number of other times, not so much focusing solely on the songbird element (but hunting does be mentioned) Most responsible owners know the pros and cons of the inside/outside debate and make a choice that they see as best.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Orla K wrote: »

...make a choice that they see as best.

I accept that. I accept that this debate raises it's head a few times a year and that nobody on either side will change their opinions as a result of anything anybody says. I accept that the whole debate is futile and that I, you, and all the other posters are wasting our time with it. I also accept that everybody is entitled to their opinion and has the right to express it. But I still feel compelled to ask: how does the choice of Cat owners "as they see it" provide any comfort or relevance to the subject?
With that I bow out of this thread as the repetition, both from other threads and within the thread, have rendered it rather useless to proceed.:P

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Now you have really lost the plot. I actually spend my life working with and protecting Nature/Wildlife. It's my job. I certainly have not killed anything like the number of birds in my lifetime that the average Domestic Cat does every year.
Your Research? What research? I have studied 7 major international reports on the subject involving hundreds of manyears of research and taken part in a couple of British and Irish research projects on the subject. So, I doubt very much if your research is accurate at all.
It is sheer fallacy to state that birds are under no threat from house cats. I'll play your semantic game and acknowledge the swift change from Domestic Cat to House Cat. But the evidence still shows that even Cats kept indoors for 20 hours per day kill birds and small mammals. This killing is not a natural thing. The level of predation does impact on local populations and bells etc do not work.
Sorry for keeping on about this matter but dis-information such as yours above does nothing for either side of the argument/discussion and prevents people getting a true picture.

You don't need to be einstein to know that cats kill birds. Simply put cats will always kill birds and you haven't even done any research from what you've said above, you've just read some one else's reports! There's just enough reports that rubbish your reports etc.. You'd be better of researching the number of birds killed by man made problems. Look whats happening to the Golden eagles.

It's your silly comment that cats should be kept locked in that just show where you're coming from.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote:

I'll play your semantic game and acknowledge the swift change from Domestic Cat to House Cat.

A housecat is a domestic cat, you say you've done research and you don't even know this? Of course you're going to assume that I'm reffering to an indoorcat. So this proves any of your research (if you ever do any) is going to be full of assumptions and guesstimations. :pac:

seamus

GigaByte wrote: »

It's your silly comment that cats should be kept locked in that just show where you're coming from.

What's so silly about it? I know plenty of people who keep cats entirely indoors with no ill-effects. Is it silly to expect people to keep their dogs on their property?

In fact the life expectancy of an indoor cat is up to 6 times that of an outdoor cat, proving that not only does the cat not suffer, it in fact goes on to live a longer life.

planetX

Life expectancy of a caged songbird would probably be higher too

Magenta

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Probably meant to be funny but it's far from it on so many fronts. Bad Taste. Bad Language (**** joke really! ). Adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. Disruptive. Infantile at best.:mad:

And you are just plain rude.

annefitzy

I am slave to Jasper, Angie and Chosy all three are indoor cats, I have jasper since he was a few days old he was found on the side of the road with the rest of his litter and dead mother, Angie came to me at 4days old with her mother who rejected her at 1day old in the vets ahe was born by c section, Chosy was part of a tnr she got trapped Nutered and ended up staying she was about 5-6mths when she first came here, All 3 off theses cats are indoor cats and are healthy and happy given the chance I think Angie would be the braver one to venture outside and would bring back a bird, Chosy is an ex stray and hides when the door is open...but saying all that I was over run with mice not long ago and every morning I woke up to a present on my pillow yuck.....my cats are better fed than me , a cat will hunt for the fun of it not for the food
My youngest is three and that is Jasper and he is huge

Graces7

Sorry Seamus but I have to disagree with you.

I hand raised a cat years back. And watched the Jekyll and Hyde appear. He would change from a baby to a killer in seconds. Just could not help it; fought it to please momma but lost every time.

It was fascinating to watch. Sometimes he would shake his head to try to get rid of these dreadful thoughts..

It is hard wired in them; nothing to do with hunger or need.

he caught bird after bird and I spent much energy chasing him when he shot past with a bird in his mouth. Many times I saved it.

But you will also only see a part of the prey a cat catches. Mine no longer bring prey in as they get told off.

But that is nature and there is no way I would stop cats going out.

seamus wrote: »

But they rarely hunt unnecessarily. Cats have very poor stamina and are good at short chases, but not good over long distances like dogs are, for example. This is why they stalk their prey before pouncing instead of just going for it.

But since a chase takes considerable energy for a cat, it makes no sense to hunt when you don't need to eat and cats spend most of their time resting - they won't waste energy unnecessarily hunting.

This is primarily what I'm basing my opinion on. However, studies have shown that domestic cats tend to remain in a somewhat kitten-like state through most of their adult life (because they never need to "move out"), and kittens *do* hunt for sport as a means of practicing their hunting skills for when they get older.
So I could be mistaken in that regard and adult domestic cats are likely to hunt for sport because of their kitten-like nature.

Graces7

In my experience of breeding and keeping cats for over three decades, the reverse has been true.

The cats I have let out live longer and are happier and healthier than those I kept indoors.


In fact the life expectancy of an indoor cat is up to 6 times that of an outdoor cat, proving that not only does the cat not suffer, it in fact goes on to live a longer life.[/QUOTE]

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I had promised myself that I was out of this discussion, as it is going the way of many similar threads here over the years. However, I can't let some of your comments go unanswered.

GigaByte wrote: »

... and you haven't even done any research from what you've said above, you've just read some one else's reports!

What part of "taken part in a couple of British and Irish research projects on the subject." gives you that impression? These were major research projects and I didn't include local projects over my 30+ in the job.

There's just enough reports that rubbish your reports etc.. You'd be better of researching the number of birds killed by man made problems. Look whats happening to the Golden eagles.

Oh where to begin! I have 8 detailled research reports sitting on my desk right now. 7 are convinced of the huge negative impact Cats have on bird populations and 1 feels the level of predation is not quite as bad although accepts the limitation of the scope of the particular study. These reports come from BTO, RSPB, IWC, NUIG, UCC and others. Care to enlighten us as to the names, or bodies behind, your contradicting research?
Of course man is to blame for many Wildlife losses and I don't dispute that but it's not the matter under discussion here. Two wrongs and all that!
The poisoning of the Golden Eagles and other raptors (which I am actively involved in investigation) is disgusting for sure but there is actaully a greater long term risk to our natural environmment from the Millions of birds and small mammals killed annually by Cats.

It's your silly comment that cats should be kept locked in that just show where you're coming from.

Firstly, I didn't say that cats should be locked in at all and secondly I'm not "coming from" anywhere. I just stated the evidence to hand.

A housecat is a domestic cat, you say you've done research and you don't even know this?

Let's be clear on this. A house Cat is of course a Domestic Cat but Domestic Cats are not all House Cats.

Of course you're going to assume that I'm reffering to an indoorcat. So this proves any of your research (if you ever do any) is going to be full of assumptions and guesstimations.

I don't assume anything. It's a fatal error when dealing with people or wildlife. No properly conducted research or study will make assumptions above any hypothesis found to be sound by previous testing or study.

All I want from this discussion is that facts and reason are used.

seamus

planetX wrote: »

Life expectancy of a caged songbird would probably be higher too

And so too the life expectancy of a cat kept in a box. But that's not the same thing as keeping a cat indoors.

Graces7 wrote: »

In my experience of breeding and keeping cats for over three decades, the reverse has been true.

The cats I have let out live longer and are happier and healthier than those I kept indoors.

Your experience then is at odds with the statistics; It doesn't mean the statistics are wrong, it means that you've either been lucky or there are other mitigating factors.
For example, you let some cats out and not others. Why? Do you keep the sicker and weaker cats locked in? Well then of course they're going to die earlier and live a less happier existence.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

These reports come from BTO, RSPB, IWC, NUIG, UCC and others.

Again anything in any of those reports is just a guess at best, you can't deny that. Here's a laughable figure for you:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Cats, both feral and housecats, also take their toll on birds. A Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) report states that, "recent research suggests that rural free-ranging domestic cats in Wisconsin may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year."[/FONT]

Very acurate figures indeed, apply that same formula to the figure in those reports you have sitting on your desk and print them up.

You're living in cloud cuckoo if you think cats are birds biggest threat! Making cats the scapegoat for bird loss is simplistic and naïve. Humans (that includes you) are the main cause of environmental destruction and the ensuing effect on wildlife, not cats. Species loss occurs for many reasons, the decline of hedgerows, climate change, modern building techniques, development of land for housing and commercial purposes and intensive agricultural practices, to name but a few. People, not cats, are responsible for this negative state of affairs.

When you walk around Dublin city the reason there's no birds there is from all the cats wandering up and down hunting them, cats the biggest threat. :rolleyes:

"The blue tit, the second most common garden bird killed by cats, is actually increasing in number across the UK."

Just going through the figures on a uk mammal site where a survey was carried out over 5 months on over 950 cats. It works out on average a cat brought home 1 bird a month

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

Again anything in any of those reports is just a guess at best, you can't deny that. Here's a laughable figure for you:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]"Cats, both feral and housecats, also take their toll on birds. A Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources (DNR) report states that... may be killing between 8 and 217 million birds each year."[/FONT]

Very acurate figures indeed, apply that same formula to the figure in those reports you have sitting on your desk and print them up.

You're living in cloud cuckoo if you think cats are birds biggest threat! Making cats the scapegoat for bird loss is simplistic and naïve.

Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? :mad:And, did you not read what I posted at all? There are no guesses in proper scientific research. How many times do I have to spell it out.
Did I mention any US based reports? No! I don't speak for any of those papers. I never claimed any total number of losses due to Cat predation - did I? In the UK rather surprisingly, the only annually repeated estimate of the total number of birds predated by cats came from the Cats Protection League's helpline, which continually suggests a figure of 55 million per annum.

If you want hard numbers from proper research then here:
Of a sample of 696 individual cats, 634 (91%) brought home at least one item and the back-transformed mean number of items brought home by was 11.3 (95% CI 10.4-12.2). The back-transformed means and number of cats retrieving at least one item from each prey group were: 8.1 (7.4-8.9) mammals for 547 (79%) cats, 4.1 (3.8-4.5) birds for 506 (73%) cats, 2.6 (1.8-2.7) herpetofauna for 145 (21%) cats and 2.2 (1.8-2.7) other items for 98 (14%) cats.

See why I made no numeric claims in replying to you? Because it's not simple and you'd only twist it to a claim of "guesses".

Hard numbers again: In a Mammal Society survey into the predation habits of nearly 1,000 cats between the 1st of April and the 31st August, in which those taking part were everyday cat owners, the sample accounted for over 14,000 'kills', made up of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians, although 66 cats killed nothing at all. No account was taken of injuries.

Did I anywhere state that Cats were the biggest threat to Birds? No, I most certainly did not. So please stop putting words in my mouth and making bogus claims against what I have said. It's all here in print. Come on show me! I said Cats kill birds. Fact. I said Cats were a threat to Bird populations. Fact. I never said they were the biggest threat. I never used Cats as a scapegoat as you put it. I simply advised the facts as laid down.
Please get it right if you are going to attack me personally.

BTW: You haven't named the research documents disporving Cat predation, as requested. Any chance of seeing them as I am genuinely interested in broadening my knowledge on this subject.

CJhaughey

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

GigaByte

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Where do you get off putting words in my mouth? :mad:And, did you not read what I posted at all? There are no guesses in proper scientific research. How many times do I have to spell it out.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

Did I mention any US based reports? No! I don't speak for any of those papers. I never claimed any total number of losses due to Cat predation - did I? In the UK rather surprisingly, the only annually repeated estimate of the total number of birds predated by cats came from the Cats Protection League's helpline, which continually suggests a figure of 55 million per annum.

Which is about 1 bird every 2 month per cat which has no impact in the total bird population.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

If you want hard numbers from proper research then here:
Of a sample of 696 individual cats, 634 (91%) brought home at least one item and the back-transformed mean number of items brought home by was 11.3 (95% CI 10.4-12.2). The back-transformed means and number of cats retrieving at least one item from each prey group were: 8.1 (7.4-8.9) mammals for 547 (79%) cats, 4.1 (3.8-4.5) birds for 506 (73%) cats, 2.6 (1.8-2.7) herpetofauna for 145 (21%) cats and 2.2 (1.8-2.7) other items for 98 (14%) cats.

See why I made no numeric claims in replying to you? Because it's not simple and you'd only twist it to a claim of "guesses".

Hard numbers again: In a Mammal Society survey into the predation habits of nearly 1,000 cats between the 1st of April and the 31st August, in which those taking part were everyday cat owners, the sample accounted for over 14,000 'kills', made up of mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians, although 66 cats killed nothing at all. No account was taken of injuries.

Did I anywhere state that Cats were the biggest threat to Birds? No, I most certainly did not. So please stop putting words in my mouth and making bogus claims against what I have said. It's all here in print. Come on show me! I said Cats kill birds. Fact. I said Cats were a threat to Bird populations. Fact. I never said they were the biggest threat. I never used Cats as a scapegoat as you put it. I simply advised the facts as laid down.
Please get it right if you are going to attack me personally.

Lets simplify those figures so everyone can understand since you haven't, what the survey actually points out is that at best 1 cat will catch 1 bird a month.

Julieta Salmon Tourniquet wrote: »

BTW: You haven't named the research documents disporving Cat predation, as requested. Any chance of seeing them as I am genuinely interested in broadening my knowledge on this subject.

This is what you do and you haven't found one article??? :eek: Thats shocking!! Here's one from the Songbird Survival website of all places

http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/predators/domestic-and-feral-cats/

annefitzy

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

And people that kill and boast about the deed belong in prison no if no buts

Graces7

Small point as I missed your wording.

We don't have to "justify" any decision we make to anyone.

Interesting your choice of words indeed...:rolleyes:.

wildlifeboy wrote: »

how do cat lovers justify letting their beloved pets roam outside of the house unchecked and in turn being responsible for a huge ammount of song bird fatalities? Does that bell really work? Can a cat learn to move stealthily enough to supress the tone? what do cat lovers think? are cats the killers that we are told they are? do you keep your cat indoors? Discuss...

kylith

GigaByte wrote: »

Lets simplify those figures so everyone can understand since you haven't, what the survey actually points out is that at best 1 cat will catch 1 bird a month.

So... extrapolating from those figures if there are 100 cats in an area they'll kill about 100 birds a month. 1000 cats = 1000 birds. I cant' find numbers for Ireland, but according to a 2008 pet food manufacturer's survery there are about 7.2 million cats in the UK, meaning 7.2 million birds killed per month.

That doesn't exactly sound like little to no impact on the bird population.

Graces7

Yes it is.
the same I mean..


"

seamus wrote: »

And so too the life expectancy of a cat kept in a box. But that's not the same thing as keeping a cat indoors.

Your experience then is at odds with the statistics; It doesn't mean the statistics are wrong, it means that you've either been lucky or there are other mitigating factors."

Not at all in any way. Statistics can be manipulated to mean anything the statistician seeks to "prove" .. old saying, "d****** lies and statistics.."

"For example, you let some cats out and not others. Why? Do you keep the sicker and weaker cats locked in? "

Certainly not and what do you mean by "sicker and weaker cats?"
Nothing an elderly cat likes better than a walk outside.

We keep friends, not prisoners.

"Well then of course they're going to die earlier and live a less happier existence.

"

Sigh.... Twisting everything is not a convincing way to argue.

And a cat that has and has had a healthy outdoor life can shake off illness better than an indoor cat often. That has always been my experience also.

Graces7

seamus wrote: »

But they rarely hunt unnecessarily. Cats have very poor stamina and are good at short chases, but not good over long distances like dogs are, for example. This is why they stalk their prey before pouncing instead of just going for it.

But since a chase takes considerable energy for a cat, it makes no sense to hunt when you don't need to eat and cats spend most of their time resting - they won't waste energy unnecessarily hunting.

This is primarily what I'm basing my opinion on. However, studies have shown that domestic cats tend to remain in a somewhat kitten-like state through most of their adult life (because they never need to "move out"), and kittens *do* hunt for sport as a means of practicing their hunting skills for when they get older.
So I could be mistaken in that regard and adult domestic cats are likely to hunt for sport because of their kitten-like nature.

This whole post is fiction and bears little relation to reality.

morganafay

I can't stand when people say cats are destroying wildlife. They do hunt, but they don't catch THAT much! Some cats hunt more than others but I have 5, and only two of them hunt, and they only catch maybe one mouse or small bird a month that I see, maybe a few more that they eat in the fields. When I had mother cats they used to catch rats and crows more often, and bring them back for the kittens, but that was only for a few weeks, and then they got spayed.

And anyway, it's NATURE! They aren't being evil, they're just hunting. I usually don't get annoyed, but this topic annoys me! They're probably killing off the week or sick ones anyway, and they need exercise too and to practise their natural behaviours, i.e. hunting. Alot of people are happy for cats to kill rats, but don't like them to kill small birds, but what's the difference really? And anyway, cat food has meat in it, and how is that less cruel than the cat killing wildlife?

And I understand that people in towns and cities would want to keep their cats in, but if you live somewhere fairly safe then why not let your cats outside. Some cats prefer to live indoors, others like to go out for part of the day, some hate going indoors (2 of mine won't come in, the 2 that hunt actually). I had one indoor cat when I lived in Dublin and he was so bored! He was really hyper and when I brought him home to the countryside he would sit on the windowsill all day looking out, until eventually I let him live outdoors and he was so so much happier and calmer. On the other hand, I have one cat who loves being inside and will spend about 20 hours inside, but then asks to be let out for a few hours. It's not cruel to let cats outside, and it's healthier for them in general (I know they can catch diseases/get hurt/get poisoned, I just mean a healthier environment). They might die younger, but their lives will be better in general (more natural, more interesting, more exercise, more stimulation) for most cats.

Like if people want to keep them in then they'll probably be fine, but most of them would be happier having the choice (at least in the countryside where it's safe). If I lived in the middle of a town or city, I'd have mine indoors only, but I live on the edge of a town and they don't go on the road and they are all vaccinated and there's no real problem.

Graces7

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

This is sheerly irresponsible violence.

They did a cull of feral cats on Tory Island. To protect the corncrake. They said. First they checked all the pets etc and made sure they all had collars so that no one' s pet got put down.

Even if it chanced to be roaming.

Drawing parallels clearly would be useless with you.

Shoot first always?

Dreadful person.

Hellrazer

CJhaughey wrote: »

Cats do an inordinate amount of damage to wildlife in my area, I have taken steps to reduce the amount of cats in my area. ANY cat I find roaming is shot on sight. No questions Ands, Ifs or Buts.
If people want to keep a cat fine but once it leaves their house and comes onto my property it becomes vermin.
I make no apologies for doing so I believe that wildlife comes before a domesticated killer.

Id prefer if comments like that were kept for the shooting forum.However I`ll allow it since its relevant to the topic ie that cats do kill wildlife and can be quite destructive to native animals.

The rules are that the discussion of vermin is allowed and in your opinion cats can be classed as vermin.In my opinion they arent unless feral.

Hellrazer

annefitzy wrote: »

And people that kill and boast about the deed belong in prison no if no buts

No need for comments like that.See my previous post.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

GigaByte wrote: »

Which is about 1 bird every 2 month per cat which has no impact in the total bird population.

Lets simplify those figures so everyone can understand since you haven't, what the survey actually points out is that at best 1 cat will catch 1 bird a month.

There's little point continuing this nonsensical to-ing and fro-ing. However, you are saying that irrespective of the number of prey items per Cat the loss to non-wildlife predation of 55million birds in Britain alone is acceptable? Enough said. There is clearly little more to discuss.

This is what you do and you haven't found one article???

Let's again be clear on a few points which you seem determined to ignore. This is part of what I do. I'm sitting beside a bog measuring water levels right now and then heading to the shore to count waders. Care to find anything wrong with that? Am I doing it to your required standards?
Also we were talking about the research you could quote. This is an internet article, tantamount to a newpaper report. Anyway, this article supports the numbers of birds lost to Cats each year and it's impact on wildlife. I did tell you I had one proper research document this morning which dispelled some of the theory on predation but you chose to ignore this.
The body of SCIENTIFIC evidence points to Cats killing many millions of birds and that losss having an impact on overall numbers. A portion of this statement at least, you by your owm comments agree with.

Anyway, no point in us continuing with the personal dislike you have obviously taken of me so I'll drop out of this and just correspond with the other contributors. No offence but I have no desire to waste wattless energy on this with you.