Why?

kryogen

Now i am genuinely asking here, not trolling

so, why, if the bible is accurate and that evil will be defeated by good after the last great battle and the such

why does Satan bother?

whats the point if it is already a foregone conclusion that he will be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire?

genuine answers please, this is something i have been thinking about for a little while

PDN

kryogen wrote: »

Now i am genuinely asking here, not trolling

so, why, if the bible is accurate and that evil will be defeated by good after the last great battle and the such

why does Satan bother?

whats the point if it is already a foregone conclusion that he will be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire?

genuine answers please, this is something i have been thinking about for a little while

Have you ever read "Berlin: The Downfall, 1945" by Antony Beevor? It is a harrowing historical account of Hitler rounding up old men and schoolchildren and sending them out to the frontlines of battle to fight a war that even the dogs on the street knew had been lost since D-Day and Stalingrad.

Evil, unfortunately, is not logical. It keeps on hurting people even when it has no chance of victory.

kelly1

kryogen wrote: »

Now i am genuinely asking here, not trolling

so, why, if the bible is accurate and that evil will be defeated by good after the last great battle and the such

why does Satan bother?

whats the point if it is already a foregone conclusion that he will be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire?

genuine answers please, this is something i have been thinking about for a little while

Good question. I think Satan is basically envious of us. He knows he is eternally damned and that we have the possibility of salvation in Christ and everlasting joy. He wants to take that from us. He wants to negate Christ's sacrifice on the cross by temping souls to their damnation. He doesn't want us to have what he can never have.

God bless,
Noel.

kryogen

thanks guys, its a question that i have never been able to work out properly, happy to get other opinions on it also

i am still unsure of it myself as i cant help but think logically! and for me there is no logical reason for Satan to bother

if i was him for instance, i would just enjoy my time before the damnation

of course you may say he does enjoy his time by tempting humans into evil works and condemning themselves

any thoughts on the document the Vatican is supposedly working on that may say for the first time, that hell might be empty? all sins being forgiven and all souls redeemable regardless

hinault

Yes, the Bible says that Good will overcome Evil : however this will not stop Lucifer from trying to coral as many souls as he possibly can. before Good vanquishes Evil.


Remember that Lucifer was exiled by God because Lucifer's pride compelled him to try to be equal to God.
It's inherent in Lucifer's makeup that even when the odds are stacked against him, Lucifer cannot control his pride and will try to create his own powerbase.

kelly1

kryogen wrote: »

any thoughts on the document the Vatican is supposedly working on that may say for the first time, that hell might be empty? all sins being forgiven and all souls redeemable regardless

What source do you have for this. It's extremely unlikely since the existence of hell is dogmatically defined and there would be no point in having hell if it remained empty. When Christ said that people were in danger of going to hell, He meant it, it wasn't just scaremongering.

pickarooney

kryogen wrote: »

thanks guys, its a question that i have never been able to work out properly, happy to get other opinions on it also

i am still unsure of it myself as i cant help but think logically! and for me there is no logical reason for Satan to bother

By the same token, if what is written is unchangeable, would that not compel him to live out his destiny and fight to the bitter end?

Or, his faith in his own power to overcome good is not the faith of those who believe in the Bible. He evidently has no regard for it, so it follows that he also does not believe in it.

Stephentlig

kelly1 wrote: »

What source do you have for this. It's extremely unlikely since the existence of hell is dogmatically defined and there would be no point in having hell if it remained empty. When Christ said that people were in danger of going to hell, He meant it, it wasn't just scaremongering.

Yes Noel, today there is a left wing theologian modern Heresy floating around that Hell does not exist, etc etc, however the Church does not Dogmatically teach this and its just pure speculation and is in total contradiction of Sacred Scripture and Tradition.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/hell.html

Pax Christi
Stephen<3

antiskeptic

kryogen wrote: »

Why does Satan bother?

Ask an atheist.

The atheist accepts there is no transcendent purpose in life: he's going to enjoy the here and now for what the here and now offers - even though he knows everything he achieves will be defeated by death - whether his own death or the death of others who are influenced by his life (a commonly posited atheist 'purpose'). Such a one might be in a better position to answer than those who consider themselves to have an eternal purpose.

It might seem as if Satan can find satisfaction (if scratching the itch the evil demands could be described as satisfaction) in destroying that which God loves. But when it appears to be the case that Satan is utilised by God in order that we can opt for the "No!" option regarding God's offer of salvation, then even this supposed 'win' of Satan's is snatched from him.

He's the ultimate patsy ... and that's the truth.

kryogen

i am atheist! just curious as to peoples ideas

and tbh, with a few of the things that have happened over the last 12 months, i wish i could believe so i am trying to find a logical route to it

not working unfortunatly

kryogen

kelly1 wrote: »

What source do you have for this. It's extremely unlikely since the existence of hell is dogmatically defined and there would be no point in having hell if it remained empty. When Christ said that people were in danger of going to hell, He meant it, it wasn't just scaremongering.

it was on a documentary i saw last week, i think it may have been on the book of revelations, exploring the subject matter,not sure of the exact name, think it was on the history channel however, ill try find a bit of info on it ok

kelly1

kryogen wrote: »

i am atheist! just curious as to peoples ideas

and tbh, with a few of the things that have happened over the last 12 months, i wish i could believe so i am trying to find a logical route to it

not working unfortunatly

Hello Kryogen,

recently I've been thinking about the best way or arguing the existence of God with an atheist and I'm convinced that philosophy is the way to go. If someone can accept the probable existence of God based on philosophical argument, then we can move on to theological arguments.

I'd suggest doing a search for talks and debates by William Lane Craig such as:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkBD20edOco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf9-vwnzqOo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qh98DX3-L0

P.S. I currently reading Is There a God by Richard Swinburne.

And I'm planning to read Aquinas: A Beginner's Guide next.

God bless!
Noel.

strobe

kryogen wrote: »

Now i am genuinely asking here, not trolling

so, why, if the bible is accurate and that evil will be defeated by good after the last great battle and the such

why does Satan bother?

whats the point if it is already a foregone conclusion that he will be defeated and thrown into the lake of fire?

genuine answers please, this is something i have been thinking about for a little while

Maybe it is just propoganda (the prophecies, that is) on the part of God to try to raise the morale of the troops. No general goes out and stands infront of his troops before a battle and says "Lad's listen, it's touch and go here, we might win, we might get totally slaughtered". Even if that is the honest truth. They come out and give a glorious speech, say how victory can be the only outcome, how the enemy stands no chance, how they are sure to win because they are on the side of "right" (both sides usually use this line), and how once it is all over you will be re-united with your family and live the rest of your days in peace and prosperity. Maybe really it is still all up in the air, not over till the fat lady sings, and that is why the fight must take place. Like you say, if it is a foregone conclusion why would Satan bother? Well he probably wouldn't. So maybe it's not as foregone as the general would like to make out, or the troops would like to believe.

antiskeptic

kryogen wrote: »

i am atheist! just curious as to peoples ideas

and tbh, with a few of the things that have happened over the last 12 months, i wish i could believe so i am trying to find a logical route to it

not working unfortunatly

Whilst the route will appear logical after you arrive, I'm not sure you can apply logic to find your way there when you blind. Blind men cannot see the elements that can be strung logically together.

For example. As an atheist, you won't believe that there is such a thing as objective evil/wrong - that some things are always and ever wrong, irrespective of what the cultural fashion of the day ... or you yourself .. says. And because you don't believe this, you're not in a position to arrive logically at the conclusion that you yourself are objectively evil - that you have rotteness somewhere in your very core. Rather, you have the safety valve of relativisation to release the pressure that such a belief would cause to rise up in you.

If a day comes where it dawns on you how entangled in evil-doing you are and you believe that this objectively the case (manifest by your inability to apply excuses any longer) then a logical progression will take place which will terminate at belief. All of this is the work of God, utilising the evil doing that you do do. Whether or not you reach that day this side of death is up to you: whether you suppress Gods efforts. Or not.

There's nothing to be done conciously to ensure a result, as such: you'll either see the logic on being born again. Or you'll see the logic at Judgement.

kelly1

antiskeptic wrote: »

.....And because you don't believe this, you're not in a position to arrive logically at the conclusion that you yourself are objectively evil - that you have rotteness somewhere in your very core.
......
If a day comes where it dawns on you how entangled in evil-doing you are....

What??? Stead on, will you? :eek:

God created us and God doesn't create anything objectively evil. I think you need to rethink this.

Canis Lupus

antiskeptic wrote: »

Whilst the route will appear logical after you arrive, I'm not sure you can apply logic to find your way there when you blind. Blind men cannot see the elements that can be strung logically together.

For example. As an atheist, you won't believe that there is such a thing as objective evil/wrong - that some things are always and ever wrong, irrespective of what the cultural fashion of the day ... or you yourself .. says. And because you don't believe this, you're not in a position to arrive logically at the conclusion that you yourself are objectively evil - that you have rotteness somewhere in your very core. Rather, you have the safety valve of relativisation to release the pressure that such a belief would cause to rise up in you.

If a day comes where it dawns on you how entangled in evil-doing you are and you believe that this objectively the case (manifest by your inability to apply excuses any longer) then a logical progression will take place which will terminate at belief. All of this is the work of God, utilising the evil doing that you do do. Whether or not you reach that day this side of death is up to you: whether you suppress Gods efforts. Or not.

There's nothing to be done conciously to ensure a result, as such: you'll either see the logic on being born again. Or you'll see the logic at Judgement.

Wow, that's scary. Do you hate yourself/people or something?

kryogen

antiskeptic wrote: »

Whilst the route will appear logical after you arrive, I'm not sure you can apply logic to find your way there when you blind. Blind men cannot see the elements that can be strung logically together.

For example. As an atheist, you won't believe that there is such a thing as objective evil/wrong - that some things are always and ever wrong, irrespective of what the cultural fashion of the day ... or you yourself .. says. And because you don't believe this, you're not in a position to arrive logically at the conclusion that you yourself are objectively evil - that you have rotteness somewhere in your very core. Rather, you have the safety valve of relativisation to release the pressure that such a belief would cause to rise up in you.

If a day comes where it dawns on you how entangled in evil-doing you are and you believe that this objectively the case (manifest by your inability to apply excuses any longer) then a logical progression will take place which will terminate at belief. All of this is the work of God, utilising the evil doing that you do do. Whether or not you reach that day this side of death is up to you: whether you suppress Gods efforts. Or not.

There's nothing to be done conciously to ensure a result, as such: you'll either see the logic on being born again. Or you'll see the logic at Judgement.

the post strikes me as a view point of someone very much in the vein of fundamentalism

i dont like this state on either side of the arguement, there is no give in fundamentalism, there is no learning, growing or acceptance of others imo

like i say, this works both ways, i am not a closed minded atheist, i am very open to the possibilty of a higher power, i dont subscribe to the orthodox teachings however

dont misunderstand me either actually, i really am atheist, i just wish i wasnt sometimes, i would like to have proof of something after this life cause i cant get my head around how your consciousness just switches off after you die

how does that work? i understand the body shuts down and dies, like a battery per se, but what about the mind? not the brain, the actual consciousness that makes you who you are?

krudler

Do you remember what it was like before you were born?death is probably the same thing, you just cease to exist

PDN

krudler wrote: »

Do you remember what it was like before you were born?death is probably the same thing, you just cease to exist

Your speculations, while undoubtedly interesting to you, really don't belong in this forum.

antiskeptic

kelly1 wrote: »

God created us and God doesn't create anything objectively evil. I think you need to rethink this.

God doesn't have to create something evil in order that it be evil. God created Lucifer and he wasn't evil. But he fell, and in falling conformed himself into a state of evil. Ditto with mankind's falling. Man became sinful. And sinfulness is evil. Objectively so.

There's not a lot to rethink - given that this is basic Christian doctrine

antiskeptic

kryogen wrote: »

the post strikes me as a view point of someone very much in the vein of fundamentalism

What I say is either true or false. If true, then it's indeed a fundemental statement(s). Such is the nature of truth - any truth. The alternative is relativism - where nothing is true.

i dont like this state on either side of the arguement, there is no give in fundamentalism, there is no learning, growing or acceptance of others imo

The truth, if true, shouldn't give in - you would/should no doubt agree with that.

What you might be supposing is that "no one can arrive at the truth - in order to state it dogmatically". If saying so, then how can you make that dogmatic statement .. and suppose it true. If no one, not even you, can arrive at truth, I mean?

like i say, this works both ways, i am not a closed minded atheist, i am very open to the possibilty of a higher power, i dont subscribe to the orthodox teachings however

It's good to be open minded. But not to a fault. Not to the point where you conclude you can never arrive at a destination. There's nothing stopping you getting out at that destination and discovering the lie of the land there. But it's close minded to say you can't arrive at a final destination.

God exists. Jesus is indeed Lord. I have eternal life. All final destination. All things which involve further investigation once arriving there.

dont misunderstand me either actually, i really am atheist, i just wish i wasnt sometimes, i would like to have proof of something after this life cause i cant get my head around how your consciousness just switches off after you die

how does that work? i understand the body shuts down and dies, like a battery per se, but what about the mind? not the brain, the actual consciousness that makes you who you are?

I can understand desiring proof of something after you die - before you die. It could be expected to (and does) completely alter the way you view life. I was just thinking today that I have as many work years to retirement ahead of me as I've already spent in the field I'm in. The last 'half' flew in, the rest can be expected to pass by just as swiftly - if not more so (relativistically speaking). In a few short years thereafter, I'll die.

But it doesn't trouble me. I look forward to that day with anticipation. I can't wait to see God's face.


One of the orthodox teachings you dispensed with above talks about how it is you come to know now. And what life is like now knowing now. It's called Christianity and it's offer of eternal life doesn't suppose to start that eternal life when you die. That life starts the moment you're born again.

antiskeptic is dead. Long live antiskeptic

kryogen

why is Christianity the right way to go in terms of an orthodox belief system? it is quite similar to Islam in many ways, can both religions be right? Judaism? Buddhism? or is every religious stance besides Christianity simply wrong and those that follow it doomed?

just opinions i want of course, i know people cant prove anything as fact

Galvasean

kelly1 wrote: »

Good question. I think Satan is basically envious of us. He knows he is eternally damned and that we have the possibility of salvation in Christ and everlasting joy. He wants to take that from us. He wants to negate Christ's sacrifice on the cross by temping souls to their damnation. He doesn't want us to have what he can never have.

God bless,
Noel.

So, is that the equivalent of him knowing he can't win, but wants to take as many with him as possible?

antiskeptic

kryogen wrote: »

why is Christianity the right way to go in terms of an orthodox belief system? it is quite similar to Islam in many ways, can both religions be right? Judaism? Buddhism? or is every religious stance besides Christianity simply wrong and those that follow it doomed?

just opinions i want of course, i know people cant prove anything as fact

One thing I remember striking me around the time when I became a Christian was someone telling me that with every religion in the world (and clearly Judaism and Islam), your eternal position before God is established by what you do. In other words, to achieve a favorable afterlife outcome, you need to do certain things; follow rules/commands, behave a certain way, pray, give money to the poor, meditate.

Whereas in Christianity, it's not what you do that counts but what God has done.

Which makes Christianity unique .. in a most critical area.

Canis Lupus

antiskeptic wrote: »

One thing I remember striking me around the time when I became a Christian was someone telling me that with every religion in the world (and clearly Judaism and Islam), your eternal position before God is established by what you do. In other words, to achieve a favorable afterlife outcome, you need to do certain things; follow rules/commands, behave a certain way, pray, give money to the poor, meditate.

Whereas in Christianity, it's not what you do that counts but what God has done.

Which makes Christianity unique .. in a most critical area.

What the???? What version of christianity are you following cos last time I heard you had commandments etc you have to follow before being let into your retirement home in the sky.

PDN

Canis Lupus wrote: »

What the???? What version of christianity are you following cos last time I heard you had commandments etc you have to follow before being let into your retirement home in the sky.

Settle down now. Evangelical Christianity, which includes hundreds of millions of Christians, holds that Christians are saved by grace through faith. In other words, we are saved by what Christ has done, not by anything we can do.

Canis Lupus

PDN wrote: »

Settle down now. Evangelical Christianity, which includes hundreds of millions of Christians, holds that Christians are saved by grace through faith. In other words, we are saved by what Christ has done, not by anything we can do.

Look you. Actually no.. forget it. I'm drunk.

So how cool is it to be a bishop and do you model yourself on Len?

mcmoustache

PDN wrote: »

Settle down now. Evangelical Christianity, which includes hundreds of millions of Christians, holds that Christians are saved by grace through faith. In other words, we are saved by what Christ has done, not by anything we can do.

Out of curiosity, does this refer to the difference between Calvin and Luther?

Stephentlig

Whereas in Christianity, it's not what you do that counts but what God has done.

really? scripture seems to say differently "27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works." ( Matthew:16:27 )

"21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. ( Matthew:7:21)"

we are saved by faith, but not faith only, nowhere in scripture does it say we are saved by faith only, but to the contrary the only place the words ''faith only'' appear in scripture are in James:2:24 "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?"

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

God doesn't have to create something evil in order that it be evil.

How are you defining objectively?

Do you mean "objectively" evil in God's opinion, or do you believe that evil as a standard of incorrect behaviour exists as a fact independently of anything including God?

Or to put it another way, who says being sinful is evil? You? God? The universe? The multiverse/reality/what ever God exists in

If it is God then it isn't particularly objective, is it?

Or think of it this way. If God determined/decided that some thing was evil as opposed to good and that became the objective standard then before this decision it wasn't the objective standard. But then it can't be the objective standard if at some point it isn't and then it is.

If it was the objective standard then it just was that way, for eternity, just like God just exists.

But then God wouldn't have decided it was this way, he would have just observed what the objective standard was.

PDN

mcmoustache wrote: »

Out of curiosity, does this refer to the difference between Calvin and Luther?

No, both Luther and Calvin believed the same thing that I have stated.