2010 Intervarsity Submission Grappling Competition

OMCCABE

Giving this its own thread to avoid confusion.


Date :
28th March

Venue :
DCU Sports Centre Main hall

Weigh ins :
10am...kickoff is at 11. (earlier you weigh in the more time you have to horse down some food.)

Weight classes & Experience :
under 64kg
under 70kg
under 76kg
under 82kg
under 88kg
under 94kg
under 102kg

Beginners = training from the commencment of the college year (October/November)
Intermediate = 2 college years experience.
Advanced = greater than 2 college years of experience.

Rules :

All categories will involve using a BJJ points based system
-Mount 4...Back 4..etc

Matches last 5 minutes or until submission.

Beginners Rules :
No attacks on opponents leg or groin
No neck cranks
No flying or standing submissions
No slams out of submissions
No bicep slicers

Intermediate Rules : (same except for)
Flying and standing submissions are allowed
Straight achilles lock is only leg lock allowed allowed

Advanced : (same except for)
All leg locks except for heel hooks are allowed (kneebars, toe holds, achilles locks,)
Flying submissions are allowed
Bicep crushes are allowed

Will Heffernan

OMCCABE wrote: »

Giving this its own thread to avoid confusion.


Date :
28th March

Venue :
DCU Sports Centre Main hall

Weigh ins :
10am...kickoff is at 11. (earlier you weigh in the more time you have to horse down some food.)

Weight classes & Experience :
under 64kg
under 70kg
under 76kg
under 82kg
under 88kg
under 94kg
under 102kg

Beginners = training from the commencment of the college year (October/November)
Intermediate = 2 college years experience.
Advanced = greater than 2 college years of experience.

Do I still count as a student?

OMCCABE

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Do I still count as a student?

Do you still count as a student? There's an envelope addressed to you sitting in the sports science office. Does that count?

Will Heffernan

OMCCABE wrote: »

Do you still count as a student? There's an envelope addressed to you sitting in the sports science office. Does that count?

I am back next year to try and finish the degree that I've been doing for about 10 years... persistence if nothing else should count?

OMCCABE

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I am back next year to try and finish the degree that I've been doing for about 10 years... persistence if nothing else should count?

If persistence is the pet name you give your student card then it counts.

dasmoose

Same setup for the team event oisin?

OMCCABE

dasmoose wrote: »

Same setup for the team event oisin?

Exact same Mark. That was my favourite part of last years event so if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Any suggestions..what do you think of the rules? There will be a detailed rules meeting on the day also.

dasmoose

Looks perfect mate... just make sure you give us directions so there isn't a load of lost nordies wandering round dublin

pablohoney87

Do you think there will be enough numbers for 3 different experience classes? Weve a rakeload of beginners this year anyway.

Sid_Justice

I think 3 skill classes is the way to go, if there is less than 3 in a category possibly you could lump some together. There should be a load of guys who have just started this year so I'd recommend they all go in the beginner class. Those that started last year perhaps in the intermediate, hopefully most of the people that fought last year will return. Than you have the advanced class where I get to smash dasmoose.

pablohoney87

Is mark still a student?

dasmoose

Yes :rolleyes: I'm only 21 you know.

Good point kev, should definitely aim for larger categories rather than sticking to the specifics when there are only 2 guys in each division.

Also, perhaps we can have some kind of superfight?

Doug Cartel

I assume this is no-gi? What's the deal with registration/fees? If I can convince some guys from my judo club to come, would we be allowed to compete?

Sid_Justice

Not speaking on Oisin's behalf but yeah that won't be a problem. I presume there isn't already a Subwrestling based group there already? What college btw?

dasmoose? superfight as long as it's open weight

dasmoose

Your weight's not going to save you

Doug Cartel

I'm in TCD. To be honest I can't see there being many takers in our club, we're not huge on ground-fighting, and things here have been pretty slow since the judo intervarsities.

Still though, I'll float the idea at training tonight and see if anyone is interested.

OMCCABE

Well I think that we all can agree that Mark looks like a mature student but as far as the Judo entry..of course you can enter. The more the merrier and the rules are designed as such that they don't favour any one discipline.

All registration is done on the day and yes it is NoGi only. That means no Gi pants also.



As for the experience categories..its gotta be done guys. I've got lads who having trained all last year, trained throughout the summer also and are now solid grapplers...it would be unfair to put them in the same category as someone who started in October and likewise would be unfair to put them against excellent competitors like old man Curry and Kev, Luke etc.

One thing that is VERY important to me is that there is no sandbagging in this event and everyone competes in their correct categories. For example a former D1 wrestler with 12 years experience recently started training with us. His submissions and sub defence are not even relevant..he's advanced..end of story. Same goes for if you have a Judo back ground, JJJ, Aikido etc. If you are experienced in a grappling based art then be honest.


I'll clarify

If you began training in September/October then you are beginner..if you began training during the summer you are intermediate. If you began training before september 2008..you are advanced.

pablohoney87

OMCCABE wrote: »

If you began training in September/October then you are beginner..if you began training during the summer you are intermediate. If you began training before september 2009..you are advanced.

Do you not mean september 2008? If they began 2009 theyve still less than 2 years training true?

Doug Cartel

OMCCABE wrote: »

As for the experience categories..its gotta be done guys. I've got lads who having trained all last year, trained throughout the summer also and are now solid grapplers...it would be unfair to put them in the same category as someone who started in October and likewise would be unfair to put them against excellent competitors like old man Curry and Kev, Luke etc.

One thing that is VERY important to me is that there is no sandbagging in this event and everyone competes in their correct categories. For example a former D1 wrestler with 12 years experience recently started training with us. His submissions and sub defence are not even relevant..he's advanced..end of story. Same goes for if you have a Judo back ground, JJJ, Aikido etc. If you are experienced in a grappling based art then be honest.


I'll clarify

If you began training in September/October then you are beginner..if you began training during the summer you are intermediate. If you began training before september 2009..you are advanced.

Of course, I don't know the kind of people you're going to get entering, but it sounds like you've only got a hair's breadth between your deginition of beginner and intermediate, and then ha huge range of prople are going to be classed advanced. I'm a judo white belt and using your classification, I could be matched up against a BJJ purple - that'd be a pretty quick match. Lord help anyone who'd only ever done aikido.

I was in the beginners' section of the sub-grappling competition in Informed Performance at the start of the year, and I didn't feel like I was sandbagging. (Though possibly in a gi tournament I might have done a bit better.)

OMCCABE

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Do you not mean september 2008? If they began 2009 theyve still less than 2 years training true?

Well spotted..I'll fix that now.

OMCCABE

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Of course, I don't know the kind of people you're going to get entering, but it sounds like you've only got a hair's breadth between your deginition of beginner and intermediate, and then ha huge range of prople are going to be classed advanced. I'm a judo white belt and using your classification, I could be matched up against a BJJ purple - that'd be a pretty quick match. Lord help anyone who'd only ever done aikido.

I was in the beginners' section of the sub-grappling competition in Informed Performance at the start of the year, and I didn't feel like I was sandbagging. (Though possibly in a gi tournament I might have done a bit better.)

I fixed the definition there as pablo pointed out. I am also bearing in mind that these are college clubs and as such most people will be part of them for no more than 3-4 years tops. The discrepancy in skill should be far more evident at the lower levels than the higher levels.

I think your talking about people who may have begun their training before 2008 for a period of time and then had a layoff till recently. One of my students trained for about a year in Team Ryano years ago. He then did nothing till he came back to train with me here in DCU. As such I classify his as a intermediate because I know his training history (less than 2 years but more than 1). Every coach should be finding out what section their students are planning on entering and approving it or if anyone is unsure on the day they can discuss it with me.

Does this clarify things for you?

Doug Cartel

Yeah it's cool.

I was just worried that you were going to take a no ifs, ands or buts approach, which could leave non-bjj people in a division where they have no chance.

Doug Cartel

Ok it looks like some of the guys from my judo club are interested. How much is the entry fee?

Boston

Is it just me, or is their no over 102kg cat?

OMCCABE

Boston wrote: »

Is it just me, or is their no over 102kg cat?

There will be a over 102 category if there are entrants.

OMCCABE

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Ok it looks like some of the guys from my judo club are interested. How much is the entry fee?

€15 mate..good to hear you guys will be taking part. We're really trying to maximise participation and spread grappling.




I will have more news tomorrow.

Doug Cartel

Nice one, €15 sounds pretty do-able. I don't think we'll have a huge number of people, but considering it's relatively cheap and just up the road, I might be able to convince a few more to come.

Now, if we can just teach Boston the difference between mount and guard in time for the event, we'll be motoring.

toaldingham

Post on Bjj.ie: http://www.bjj.ie/?p=423

Looks like a good event.

Ciaran

Boston

Alright I'll be along. For reference would you provide links to what the following mean. I'll fire off an email to the club later on. Is payment and sign up ok on the day?

"No attacks on opponents leg or groin
No neck cranks
No flying or standing submissions
No slams out of submissions
No bicep slicers"

Like when you say no attacks on opponents legs do you mean no grabbing the legs in take downs or what?

Sid_Justice

"No attacks on opponents leg or groin

No submission attempts on legs or groin - no leglocks, ankle locks, banana split things.

No neck cranks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinal_lock especially no http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_crab This rule is in judo and is no different in submission wrestling.

No flying or standing submissions

This is an example of an illegal flying armbar http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuKtK9p3Otw you can see the submission is applied while the opponent is still standing. Generally however, this type of arm bar is allowed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih4LJ3e4Y2g because the submission actually takes place on the ground with full control by the person applying the submission. Not sure if this will be allowed on the day

More or less the same as in judo.

Standing submissions refer to submission attempts armlocks, strangles and chokes from the standing position. These are rare but Standing guillotines are seen amongst beginners (and pros ). If you and your opponent are in the standing position you can't perform a submission. e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2FajIE2gHI

Not if this is legal in judo or not, I've choked people from standing not sure if it's allowed though.

No slams out of submissions

If your opponent has you in a triangle or armbar from their guard, you can't pick them up and bounce them off the mat to (hopefully) make them release the hold. Deliberately spiking people's back/necks off the mat is illegal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwKpzKZOpe4

Same as in judo.

No bicep slicers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC82PZfAqY0

There are loads of variations on this. You can't compress your opponent's arm/leg at the bicep/equivalent muscle in order to get a pain compliant submission. Dodgy bicep slicers can lead to arm breaks.

Not sure what judo call these.

Boston

Ok. Standing chokes are legal in Judo, you just don't see them because they are hard to do without breaking some other rule such as cross grips for too long.

Sid_Justice

If there are any judo guys attending here is some free advice:

Find out what guillotines are. First line of defence is good posture, so don't try and bury your head in the guys lap when in his guard. Don't make any shoddy double leg attempts.

Find out what Triangles are. I've never seen sangoku-jime from guard in judo but it's one of the top 5 submissions in BJJ. First line of defence is never having one arm in and one arm out when in your opponents guard. As usual good posture is important.

Find out what a Rear naked choke is. The modified form of hadake-jimi is another top 5 submission. Be wary of using turtle defence http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11-x092PYO8. It works in judo due to the nature of the artificial rules, it will eventually get you tapped in BJJ (unless you a judoninja like me).

It's a (semi)legitimate strategy to get a take down (2points), get side control (yoko-shiho) get knee on belly (more points), get mount (tate-shiho) (more points) and then go for a submission. When your opponent recovers guard you can repeat.

Obviously all the judo throws are Gi centric but if you look at Karo's videos you can see that many can be applied to No-gi effectively. However, I'd urge you from going for any sacrifice throws (tomoe nage), any speculative hip throws (don't turn your back to your opponent unless you're highly confident you'll get the take down and land on top). Tips for stand up are learn what underhooks are and try and do stuff like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgp76GN-Rls

Doug Cartel

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Find out what guillotines are.

Seriously. I got a really nasty shock from this the first few times I did no-gi, and it's still something that catches me out. It's crazy the way something that is basically an annoyance when you and your opponent are wearing wide sleeved, double weave jackets, becomes a fight ender when it's just someone's arm.

OMCCABE

As it stands we've got

DCU
UCD
QUB
ITT
CIT
Cholaiste Dhulaigh
Trinity

Not to mention student card holders from other institutions that don't have a specific MMA/BJJ/Judo club. This is shaping up to be awesome and don't forget about the MMA intervarsity on April 11th



Oisin

Chris89

I used to play pool with a few of the lads in DIT, so if anyone wants to put a team together, give me a shout.

dasmoose

You can add Universiy of Ulster/Jordanstown to that list Oisin as i discovered when trying to put a team together the other night that we've been training the enemy for a year now... there were actually more Jordanstown students there than QUB students, it was like that bit in Them when your man puts the special sunglasses on and sees all the subliminal messages everywhere...

Anyway, we've been training them so we're taking all the credit for the medals they win :P

OMCCABE

dasmoose wrote: »

You can add Universiy of Ulster/Jordanstown to that list Oisin as i discovered when trying to put a team together the other night that we've been training the enemy for a year now... there were actually more Jordanstown students there than QUB students, it was like that bit in Them when your man puts the special sunglasses on and sees all the subliminal messages everywhere...

Anyway, we've been training them so we're taking all the credit for the medals they win :P

LOL....we're in a similar situation with the lads from Cholaiste Dhulaigh. Just to clarify for everyone that even though they train with us..they will not be part of the DCU team in the team event. Of course they can have their own team in the team event if there is 5 of them.

dasmoose

Can we enter a team of only 3?

...i was serious about there being practically no qub students there, and several of our guys are away at the british open so its looking like we'll only have 3 entrants.

OMCCABE

dasmoose wrote: »

Can we enter a team of only 3?

...i was serious about there being practically no qub students there, and several of our guys are away at the british open so its looking like we'll only have 3 entrants.

I know I answered you in person already Mark but just so everyone else knows.

I chose 5 per team to allow for a more balanced representation of each club. 3 per team could potentially be won with 2 good competitors and a grappling dummy...with 5 this is more difficult. Additionally it provides a greater opportunity for guys to get in some extra matches.

For clubs that bring enough competitors for 2 or more teams. There will be an unofficial team event for these guys in order to get more experienceshould they wish.

Doug Cartel

But what about entering a three man team in a five man team event?

pablohoney87

Doug Cartel wrote: »

But what about entering a three man team in a five man team event?

How would that work out? Forfeit 2 matches in every round?

OMCCABE

Doug Cartel wrote: »

But what about entering a three man team in a five man team event?

To enter the official team eventyou must have 5 members that all come from the same institution.

However in the unofficial event teams can be made up of 3 from 1 college and 2 from another. I want to see everybody get the chance to compete at least 3-4 times each. Last year I had 7 matches..some had 8. I know if I travelled for a comp I would want at least 3 matches win lose or draw. That is what I plan on providing.

Doug Cartel

pablohoney87 wrote: »

How would that work out? Forfeit 2 matches in every round?

Well, that's how it's done in judo.

Doug Cartel

OMCCABE wrote: »

However in the unofficial event teams can be made up of 3 from 1 college and 2 from another. I want to see everybody get the chance to compete at least 3-4 times each. Last year I had 7 matches..some had 8. I know if I travelled for a comp I would want at least 3 matches win lose or draw. That is what I plan on providing.

OK, that's great!

I don't think we'll have enough people to make up a whole team, and I was worried about only getting one match and then heading home.

OMCCABE

Doug Cartel wrote: »

OK, that's great!

I don't think we'll have enough people to make up a whole team, and I was worried about only getting one match and then heading home.

Rest assured that there is no chance of that happening. You'll get all the mat time that you can handle.

Boston

Right, so hopefully trinity will be bringing a decent number. I was wondering if there's a form we could get off you stating the costs of entry as we're trying to get the college to pay it.

OMCCABE

Boston wrote: »

Right, so hopefully trinity will be bringing a decent number. I was wondering if there's a form we could get off you stating the costs of entry as we're trying to get the college to pay it.

Hey Boston

Despite the lads from ITT getting in contact with the CUSAI. They have yet to post the events to their website. As far as forms are concerned. There are none. If your sports officer wants details he/she can contact me directly (oisin.mccabe@gmail.com) or look at advertisements on bjj.ie.

Hope this helps

Oisin

Boston

Will me be able to get receipts on the day? That would faciltate claiming expenses back. I know it's only 15 euro, but it's the least trinity can do for those who represent the college.

OMCCABE

Boston wrote: »

Will me be able to get receipts on the day? That would faciltate claiming expenses back. I know it's only 15 euro, but it's the least trinity can do for those who represent the college.

I'll do my best to help you out on the day Boston. Just PM me the details you want on the reciept and I'll whip one up for the day.


LESS THAN A WEEK AWAY NOW GUYS


Again lets try to maximise participation and support.


Oisin

OMCCABE

Just posting up a bit more on rules. We are using the IBJJF points system.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]4 points – mount, back grab[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3 points – passing the guard[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]2 points – take downs, sweeps and knee on the belly[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1, 2, 3... – advantages[/FONT]


Each position must be secured for a count of 3 before the points can be awarded. So for example if you pass guard into side control and your opponent turns onto his knees withing 3 seconds..you get no score.

Additionally you can link points together. If you swept to the mount for example you get 2 for the sweep and 4 for the mount so 6 total points.


If anyone wants clarification on any of this then post away.

6 DAYS

Oisin

dasmoose

Could you post some directions please oisin?