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Considering taking up biking - cost / safety / license checks..

  • 08-03-2010 1:26pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭


    While down near Glendalough at the weekend in the sunshine, I couldn't help but be jealous of the hundreds of bikers about, and being with my mate who speaks very passionately about bikes and is just graduating up to a bmw (not sure of the model - think The Long Way Round one) didn't help much either.

    So. Before I impulsivly do something on a whim, I have a few questions. First, do these costs seem about right:

    Yamaha TDR 125 - €1200
    Full set of gear from Lidl - €160 (I have a helmet from my moped days!)
    Tax - €50ish
    Insurance - €250 - €300 (This is really where my question is. This is what my mate said he had with AON.ie, but their online quotation system is down, and Quinn said €1000!)

    So if that was the case, then it looks like I could be set up for ~€2000. Whether or not I decide to blow that amount of money on a bike simply for a bit of weekend riding, probably mainly during the summer, I haven't decided yet...In the meantime I'm working the rest of the stuff out.

    From the looks of it, I can get a provisional A(1?) licence which will let me have a 125 just by filling in a form from the garda station. Apparantly there's some safety course though you can do which is v good, and also then gives you "full licence rates" for insurance if you pass. Anyone know what this course is actually called? How much is it?

    And lastly, does it hurt if you ever come off!? I had a moped from 16 - 19 and never had any crashes. I did have some wiggles from the front wheel slipping going round corners though, and Im a bit worried about what that would be like on a motorbike - I feel like I paid an awful lot of attention to what my front tyre was on, particularly in the wet. On the dual carriage way in the rain I would never drive on the bus lane line paint, I avoided all manhole covers while leaning and turning, and i used the front brake very little...is that being paranoid? Do bike often just slip out their front wheel, or am I being over cautious?

    Cheers.


«1

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Yamaha TDR 125 - €1200
    Full set of gear from Lidl - €160 (I have a helmet from my moped days!)
    Tax - €50ish
    Insurance - €250 - €300 (This is really where my question is. This is what my mate said he had with AON.ie, but their online quotation system is down, and Quinn said €1000!)

    I'd spend a bit more on gear, while most of the Lidl stuff is great I'm not sure if I'd trust their gear in an off. You'd be doing well to get insurance that cheap IMO, head over to Quinn Directs website and get a quote.
    From the looks of it, I can get a provisional A(1?) licence which will let me have a 125 just by filling in a form from the garda station. Apparantly there's some safety course though you can do which is v good, and also then gives you "full licence rates" for insurance if you pass. Anyone know what this course is actually called? How much is it?

    An A license will allow you to ride a bike of any CC as long as it's under 33BHP. There's a power to weight restriction also but that really only affects two stroke 125s and the like. Most riding instructors can run the course for insurance assessments, not all insurance companies accept these though.
    And lastly, does it hurt if you ever come off!? I had a moped from 16 - 19 and never had any crashes. I did have some wiggles from the front wheel slipping going round corners though, and Im a bit worried about what that would be like on a motorbike - I feel like I paid an awful lot of attention to what my front tyre was on, particularly in the wet. On the dual carriage way in the rain I would never drive on the bus lane line paint, I avoided all manhole covers while leaning and turning, and i used the front brake very little...is that being paranoid? Do bike often just slip out their front wheel, or am I being over cautious?

    Yes, coming off hurts :D Road rash really hurts, so wear all your gear all the time and you shouldn't be hurt too badly unless it's a really severe off. You can never be too careful on a bike, and most noobies wouldn't even know to look for paint lines and manhole covers in the wet so you're off to a good start.

    Good luck anyway ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    I'd spend a bit more on gear, while most of the Lidl stuff is great I'm not sure if I'd trust their gear in an off. You'd be doing well to get insurance that cheap IMO, head over to Quinn Directs website and get a quote.

    An A license will allow you to ride a bike of any CC as long as it's under 33BHP. There's a power to weight restriction also but that really only affects two stroke 125s and the like. Most riding instructors can run the course for insurance assessments, not all insurance companies accept these though.

    Yes, coming off hurts :D Road rash really hurts, so wear all your gear all the time and you shouldn't be hurt too badly unless it's a really severe off. You can never be too careful on a bike, and most noobies wouldn't even know to look for paint lines and manhole covers in the wet so you're off to a good start.

    Good luck anyway ;)

    Couldn't have said it better!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    I got a mad figary in the beginning of 2008 after a similar experience to yours. 7 months later, I was on my dream (2nd) bike (although restricted) with a full license in my hand. All it took was 1 day training/ assessment and 1 pretest lesson and a good deliberate effort with practise.

    My point isn't that I'm great, it's that it's all do-able.

    Just do it. You know it makes sense...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Idleater


    Insurance - €250 - €300 (This is really where my question is. This is what my mate said he had with AON.ie, but their online quotation system is down, and Quinn said €1000!)

    I think you should be sitting down - preferably in a comfortable chair - when you ring them for an insurance quote.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭KTRIC


    :cool:
    nereid wrote: »
    I think you should be sitting down - preferably in a comfortable chair - when you ring them for an insurance quote.

    Actually I think the correct position is lying over a barrel :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Idleater


    KTRIC wrote: »
    :cool:

    Actually I think the correct position is lying over a barrel :D

    Nah, he is applying for his first quote, not a renewal. :)

    They have you suckered at renewal time, you still have a chance when starting out. i.e. if you get over the first shock, then it only gets easier (unless you do something silly).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,521 ✭✭✭RosieJoe


    KTRIC wrote: »
    :cool:

    Actually I think the correct position is lying over a barrel :D

    I thought "bent over" would be a better description of the position :D

    How old is your lid and what condition is it in? You may need to get a new one if it's in shíte or is more than 5 years old.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Insurance is really what's going to make or break it for me. I rang them (while sitting down) and got told ~€450, or ~€360 with training. Do you know if it's possible to get "weekend only" insurance or something along the lines? I can't really justify the €500 for the amount im going to be using it!

    As for gear, i don't really have any problem spending more on it. I just saw the Lidl gear and heard good reports so that's why was leaning towards it.

    Helmet could probably be replaced tbh - its in good cond and never been dropped or anything, but just for the sake of it's age (5 - 6 yrs).

    Insurance aside (haven't made a decision yet) - what about courses? Is the Motorcycle Rider Training one the only one that reduces insurance? It's €850...seems very expensive??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,012 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Insurance is really what's going to make or break it for me. I rang them (while sitting down) and got told ~€450, or ~€360 with training. Do you know if it's possible to get "weekend only" insurance or something along the lines? I can't really justify the €500 for the amount im going to be using it!

    I paid 1360 first year on a bike. I'm amazed you got a quote that low.

    No weekend insurance, not worth it for them.
    As for gear, i don't really have any problem spending more on it. I just saw the Lidl gear and heard good reports so that's why was leaning towards it.

    It's supposed to be decent. Not good, just decent. I wouldn't want to take a tumble wearing it though.
    Helmet could probably be replaced tbh - its in good cond and never been dropped or anything, but just for the sake of it's age (5 - 6 yrs).

    Defiantly replace it.

    Insurance aside (haven't made a decision yet) - what about courses? Is the Motorcycle Rider Training one the only one that reduces insurance? It's €850...seems very expensive??

    David Lyons will do a AON assessment over three hours on one of his bikes for 190. A decent price, will pay itself off over two years.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    You can pay the insurance in installments over 10 months so it's not one big lump of cash you have to hand over.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes



    Helmet could probably be replaced tbh - its in good cond and never been dropped or anything, but just for the sake of it's age (5 - 6 yrs).

    Yer supposed to change every 4 years... prob best to get other one...
    Insurance aside (haven't made a decision yet) - what about courses? Is the Motorcycle Rider Training one the only one that reduces insurance? It's €850...seems very expensive??

    I dont think that one reduces your insurance at all... what you need to do is go get a Quinn Rider assessment or an AON rider assessment (respective to whatever insurance company your with) this is about 200 quid and can bring your insurance down 10 - 40% (brought mine down 30%)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 353 ✭✭ogriofa


    Haya,
    dont want to put a dampner on it, and you look like you have taken everything into acount... but biking isn't cheap.
    You get what you pay for (generally) in biking terms, Id stay away from the Lidl stuff.
    You havent said anything about lessons, I wont drone on, but you really do need lessons. If you get an insurance training course this will reduce your training by a good chunk

    Also, why a 125? You might get bored of that quickly. I lasted 6 months on mine before I upgraded to a 650 (restricted)

    Good luck, and you're dead right, biking DOES rock
    Enjoy


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Idleater


    Insurance is really what's going to make or break it for me. I rang them (while sitting down) and got told ~€450, or ~€360 with training.

    Heilige Scheiße! How much leeway is there in that '~' :eek:

    You are obviously senior, outside dublin, quite probably female, and a charmer when speaking to the insurers ... For a small donation, would you call Aon on my behalf?

    However, if you do get it for that, you are not doing badly at all - blow the rest on some swanky bike gear, lessons, and stickers for the bike. You are seriously saving yourself €1000 compared to most beginners.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    nereid wrote: »
    You are obviously senior

    I feel old at 25, but wouldn't exactly call myself "senior"!
    nereid wrote: »
    outside dublin

    dublin
    nereid wrote: »
    quite probably female

    *quick trouser check*. Nope.

    nereid wrote: »
    and a charmer when speaking to the insurers ... For a small donation, would you call Aon on my behalf?

    How small a donation are we talking? The "~" band was very small when I was using it above, but in this instance I think i'd have extend it somewhat..


    As for lessons, I found that David Lyons guy online a couple days ago, but couldnt tell if it was officially reckognised training that reduced insurance, or just some guy who taught you generally. Defo would go with him. But my mate has been biking for a while, has his full license, has done all the various training courses, and is a good one for explaining stuff so i'd do a few unofficial sessions with him. I know it's not the same, but i would like to think i'm pretty competent on the road between the 3 or 4 years on a moped, several safety courses in car driving, and being a road cyclist.

    And the reasons I only want a 125 is A) - first bike, B) - insurance, and C) - I'm primarily a motorist. Blew my childhood savings, last year's work, and a bunch of shares on a nice motor which I LOVE driving. This bike would just be for country trips on sunny weekends with the lads, and to test whether biking's for me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Jaden


    I got a restricted CB400, all the gear (from cotters), insurance and tax all-in for circa 2K.

    You'd probably be better off getting an A license rather than an A1. Plenty of restricted learner legal 250-400cc bikes out there.

    Don't skip in the gear. I got a Helmet, Waterproof jacket and pants, boots and gloves for a shade over €300 in Cotters. Insurance is €500, Bike + restrictor was €1,000, tax and tankbag/lock/cover/my little pony stickers brought me up to just shy of 2K. Well worth it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    After virtually no biking experience, my first bike was a retricted '99 bandit 600. I had it replaced with the restricted GSX after about 4 months IIRC. Lots of smaller BMWs are restrictable. Don't compromise on your choice of bike is my point. My uncle got a '00 BMW 850 for €1,000 recently.

    AON made be get my assessment before they'd give me insurance. I drove the instructors bike and got the cert. I think my insurance was €600 TPO in the end.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Just a quick update -

    the good news is ive decided im definately gonna get a bike and give the whole thing a go!

    the bad news is i pretty much have my heart set on a Derbi Terra which is about €3000 :(


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    What about a Yamaha XT125? Looks very similar and should be a lot cheaper, probably a bit more reliable as well.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Thats quite nice alright, but i think it's leaning just that bit too far on the pure scrambler side. I really like the tourer-esque look of the terra.
    Though if i plan on holding onto it for 3 or so years, perhaps its worth spending that extra bit on it...reckon it'd hold its value well?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Don't get an expensive first bike, you'll probably drop it a few times making all the usually mistakes new riders make. Get a cheap bike to learn on, then upgrade to a bike you really like when you've the experience to keep it rubber side down.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭ifah


    1. the resale on that derbi will prob be next to nothing - it's very uncommon, which means
    a. lots of people won't know anything about it
    b. parts/servicing etc will be hard come by

    2. you'll only stick with a 125 for a couple of months before you want to move up. also if you're out on spins with your mates who are on bigger bikes, you'll really struggle to keep up.

    if you like that style of bike - why not have a look at Varadero 125 (great resale), vstrom 650 restricted, transalp restricted ....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Jaden


    I would suggest:

    1. Honda Transalp (restricted) solid touring type bike.
    2. CB250/400 (the 400 will need to be restricted). Bulletproof naked bike (no fairings to destroy when you drop it - and you WILL drop it.
    3. Honda BROS. 400cc but learner legal. Hard to find one in good nick, owing to the fact couriers loved them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Ye i've been looking into it, and i reckon it'l hold it's value pretty well - plus it's a piaggio-based engine so parts would be ok.

    I know i'm going 125 anyway, i don't want a bigger bike. Insurance, learning etc i'd just prefer a 125.

    So really now it's just down to the varadero or terra. I'm going to have to mull on this for a while!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,548 ✭✭✭Luckycharm


    I feel old at 25, but wouldn't exactly call myself "senior"!



    dublin



    *quick trouser check*. Nope.




    How small a donation are we talking? The "~" band was very small when I was using it above, but in this instance I think i'd have extend it somewhat..


    As for lessons, I found that David Lyons guy online a couple days ago, but couldnt tell if it was officially reckognised training that reduced insurance, or just some guy who taught you generally. Defo would go with him. But my mate has been biking for a while, has his full license, has done all the various training courses, and is a good one for explaining stuff so i'd do a few unofficial sessions with him. I know it's not the same, but i would like to think i'm pretty competent on the road between the 3 or 4 years on a moped, several safety courses in car driving, and being a road cyclist.

    And the reasons I only want a 125 is A) - first bike, B) - insurance, and C) - I'm primarily a motorist. Blew my childhood savings, last year's work, and a bunch of shares on a nice motor which I LOVE driving. This bike would just be for country trips on sunny weekends with the lads, and to test whether biking's for me.

    Who is your car insured with if you are with Axa they insure bikes as well and could give you a good deal they do for me - I have 125cc scooter


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭hobochris


    Another thing I would factor in is lessons.

    While a moped and a bike are similar in some ways in others they are a world apart.

    You may not think you need training, I didn't, many others I'm sure thought they didn't as well, But having done training, I like many others realized it was needed.

    I would STRONGLY advise on getting training.

    It is an eye opener and you learn some very good bike handling techniques and tricks in the process.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Well after quite a search, i finally found a second hand, but essentially new (<2k miles) Derbi Terra up north for less than €2000. I was delighted with myself, but unfortunately it turns out that because the bike is 10kg lighter than e.g. a TDR, that puts it in group 4 insurance - adding another €350 to what i'd be paying on a TDR or Varadero! Extremely frustrated about it all.

    Anyway, it's now definately between the Varadero or TDR and i'm going out shopping this weekend. Question though - what are the relative life expectancies (in miles) for 4 stroke and 2 stroke bikes?


    Then it'l be Gear -> insurance -> driver training -> fun.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    This might be a good alternative... http://belfast.gumtree.com/belfast/83/55843883.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Thats not bad looking, but slow as hell from what i've read.

    I'm actually thinking of going out to have a look at this at the weekend.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    You'll get that for 1000 which would be a bargain... make sure to ask what warranty is with it... eg. not eninge etc


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Seen this aswell... practically brand new... http://belfast.gumtree.com/belfast/17/55827617.html


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    jameshayes wrote: »
    Seen this aswell... practically brand new... http://belfast.gumtree.com/belfast/17/55827617.html

    That's a cool looking 125!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Well, I'm officially a motorcyclist.

    Ended up going for that TDR - got it for €1050 incl a service, new wing mirrors, new back tyre, and tax.

    The fairings aren't in as good shape as the photo would suggest - there's a few scrapes, and a crack on the front bit, but the engine seems to be in pretty good condition with little to no rust anywhere, and it started first time from cold.

    The guys are pretty sound out there, and they'll take it back off me when i come to upgrade so all in all pretty happy with outcome. Just gotta work out how i'm gonna get it home from out there now since i don't have my provisional yet...:o


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Where do ya live buddy? I can drive it back for ya if needs be


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Well, I'm officially a motorcyclist.

    Ended up going for that TDR - got it for €1050 incl a service, new wing mirrors, new back tyre, and tax.

    The fairings aren't in as good shape as the photo would suggest - there's a few scrapes, and a crack on the front bit, but the engine seems to be in pretty good condition with little to no rust anywhere, and it started first time from cold.

    The guys are pretty sound out there, and they'll take it back off me when i come to upgrade so all in all pretty happy with outcome. Just gotta work out how i'm gonna get it home from out there now since i don't have my provisional yet...:o

    Nice bike, was considering buying the 850cc version a while back. Don't worry about the fairings, you'll probably drop it yourself a few times anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭ifah


    thats a 2 stroke isn't it ? don't forget when you going to fill her up.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Cheers James, that's very good of you! I'm going to see if I can rob my friend's commercial van first which has hooks and strappings inside it, as I'd be a little worried asking someone to drive it uninsured, but if I can't do it that way I might have to come back to you.

    And thanks for the vote of competancy KamiKazi!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    Cheers James, that's very good of you! I'm going to see if I can rob my friend's commercial van first which has hooks and strappings inside it, as I'd be a little worried asking someone to drive it uninsured, but if I can't do it that way I might have to come back to you.

    And thanks for the vote of competancy KamiKazi!

    I'd say James' insurance allows him to drive any bike ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,167 ✭✭✭gsxr1


    Spottyelaphant.

    go for it dude. congrates on your bike

    work your way up to the big stuff or just keep it small. Its all up to you.

    Its addictive and a very social circle , Whether you are a Hoolie or rookie.

    Its heart stopping scary and serious fun. Great way to get away from it all .

    I have worked my way up through the ranks of uber fast full race track bikes and have settled on a 250 offroader. Cant get enough of it. Its like a bug.
    welcome:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Well, finally got my license and insurance sorted yesterday, so went for my first drive then...

    I was surprised at how naturally the gears came to me. Really thought i'd have issues with revs and knowing what gear im in. Only had one dodgy moment when i was accelerating from 3rd to 4th and i clicked down instead of up (which i actually think is more intuitive than clicking up!) and the bike did a massive lurch forward.

    One thing that really caught me by surprise was the steering though. I dunno if all bikes are equal, but I had a bit of an issue on my first right hand turn!

    After two mopeds, several honda cub-esque bikes in Asia, and many bicycles, it is drilled into me that to turn right you: steer right (push left hand away) and lean right. Nope, not on my TDR! When i tried to do that I found i couldnt get my centre of gravity over the right side of the bike, it was trying to go front left-ish! Against all better judgement I had to quickly nudge my right hand forward slightly - in order to go around a right hand bend! Extremely strange feeling.

    Absolutely love it though. Just wanna get home from work and go for a drive :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭jameshayes


    Everyone always has a problem with either left turns or right turns when they start out on bikes, - the thing to do is try relax as much as possible, DONT look down at the ground, make sure your elbow is bent and use your sholder to do all the work...

    Other common problems are;
    -Being in too high a gear, causing the bikes balance difficult to manage and
    -touching the front brake - when you do this you lose most of your steering clearance, keep away from the front brake!


    Good luck with the riding dude - just remember to always kit out, most accidents happen within 10 miles of your house. & never take the risk... you'll know what i mean soon; you'll see a gap & think 'i'd make that'!!! it's best not to find out!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    i've always lived the tdr great bike
    is it restricted ?

    they make about 25 brake if you de restrict them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Idleater


    Only had one dodgy moment when i was accelerating from 3rd to 4th and i clicked down instead of up (which i actually think is more intuitive than clicking up!) and the bike did a massive lurch forward.

    When you have to emergency stop you will be thankful for the gear lever direction.

    If it is of any interest to you, the race bikes are (generally) prepared for the way you indicate - down to go 2-3-4-5-6 and up to go 6-5-4-3-2-1 because when the bike is banked over in a corner you can accelerate out and change gear without having your foot mashed into the ground.

    I'm willing to bet you are a bit off that kind of riding yet though, so best to get used to the "standard" lever operation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Ye I pretty much don't touch the front brake except for when im stopped at lights. Not least because of the very obvious weight transfer to the front, and i'd rather have the back wheel completely lock up than get a bit of slide on the front.

    Im not sure if it's restricted or not - but i had a drive of my mates TDR and mine felt a bit pokier. Could be any number of reasons for that though.

    If the weather's right (and i don't end up going out on friday night), myself and the two lads (one seasoned, one beginner ala me) are going to head down to Brittas on Sat morning for our first "tour"! Looking forward to actually have some time between traffic lights to really get a feel for the bike. Gonna try and sort training for the week after then, depending on availability.

    I had a bit of a "why the hell am i blowing this cash" moment last week, but extremely glad I spent it now since i've actually been out!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    front brake is for most of your braking you need to get used to it
    if you want he st stay more upright then change the springs and or oil in the forks
    that shortening up and loading of your front brake is important

    please read this



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    1. Which brake is the most effective?

    The front brake is the most effective, giving between 60 & 80% of the bike's stopping power in hard stops, depending upon surface conditions. This is because most of the weight of the bike and rider transfers forward onto the front wheel when the brakes are applied.



    A common example of weight transfer is when you trip on a gutter - your feet stop but momentum keeps the top of you going and you fall flat on your face. The weight transfer that takes place under braking on a motorcycle pushes the front wheel onto the ground and makes it grip very well.

    2. Is the front wheel likely to skid if you apply the front brake hard?

    No. The front wheel is likely to skid uncontrollably and bring you down only if you jam the front brake on hard. If you apply the front brake in a staged (progressive) process, the front wheel may skid but that skid is normally quite controllable.

    3. Is the rear wheel likely to skid if you apply the brakes hard?



    With most of the weight being on the front wheel, the rear wheel tends to be light under braking and will therefore lock up and skid very easily.

    4. How do you control a rear wheel skid?



    Control of a rear wheel skid is easy. Just keep your eyes up to the horizon and look where you WANT to go (not necessarily where you are actually going) and the bike will skid in a controllable manner with a minimum of fishtailing.



    Basic and advanced braking techniques are best learnt under controlled conditions rather than when a truck pulls out on you! Your local motorcycle school will run a fun braking exercise session for you and some mates if you care to call the school and arrange it.

    5. Is braking a natural skill?

    Braking, as with any riding skill, is a learned skill, not a natural one. This means you must practice the correct braking skills enough to make them an instinctive reaction before you can be sure that you will do the right things in an emergency. Overseas research has shown that, because of panic overpowering the rider's conscious reactions, nearly a third of all riders do absolutely nothing in an accident situation: they don't even apply the brakes!



    If, however, your high level braking skills are so well learnt that they are instinctive, you will do it right, no matter what the situation. However, this requires you to do a lot of high level braking skill practice, the skills will not come with normal everyday riding.

    6. Is there a special braking technique that ensures that a rider will get the best out of a motorcycle's brakes?

    Yes. The process is called STAGED BRAKING and it involves the rider applying the motorcycle's brakes in a staged process. This gives the rider predictable, progressive braking.

    7. In an emergency do we concentrate on using staged braking on both front and back brakes?

    This is a controversial subject. Some experienced riders reckon that, even in an emergency when research has shown that panic tends to decrease your riding skills, they can apply the back brake perfectly with no loss of braking on the front.



    Well, research has shown that the average rider can only properly concentrate on the use of one brake in an emergency so, unless you think you're road motorcycling's equivalent of a top motorcycle racer, we would suggest that you concentrate on getting the best out of one brake.



    Of the front and rear brake on a motorcycle, the one to concentrate on in an emergency is the front brake because if you get that one wrong, lock it up and don't correct that problem then you're going to crash.



    According to the American Motorcycle Safety Foundation, if you try to get the best out of both brakes in an emergency, you will get the best out of neither. The MSF says you can't concentrate FULLY on both brakes at one time. You know your mother's old nag, "You can't concentrate on two things at one time"!



    So, to get the best braking, you have to concentrate using either the front or the back brake and, since the front brake gives up to 80% of your braking power and incorrect application is likely to make you fall off, it makes sense to concentrate on the front brake.



    The American Motorcycle Safety Foundation teaches their instructors that "in an emergency braking situation you should apply the back brake hard and let the back wheel slide if it wants to. This way you can concentrate on what is happening up front; there's enough to think about in the use of the front brake."

    8. So how should I apply the rear brake?

    Apply it and forget about it. Let the back wheel skid if necessary. Concentrate on using staged braking to harness the superior power of the front brake to save your life.

    9. Is Staged Braking difficult to learn?

    Given practice, the skill is not difficult to learn. The best way to learn it is to start off with a four stage application of the front brake. Later you can increase the number of stages to make your braking more and more progressive, if you want to.

    10.Can you explain four stage braking in practical terms?

    To understand four stage braking, think of a rider coming up to a set of lights. Stage One is the force with which he applies the front brake when he sees the lights turn orange some way ahead, in other words, lightly.



    At Stage One, the rider is applying the front brake to the point where the brake is just on and slowing the bike down very, very gently to roll to a stop.



    Stage Two is the force the rider would use if he was a bit closer to the lights when they turned orange, and he had to make a normal, smooth stop at the lights. So, Stage Two is the firm pull used to bring the bike to a firm, but quiet stop. The rider applies his front brake to Stage One (friction point) before going on to apply to a steady force at Stage Two.



    Stage Three. Our rider has dithered about whether to stop for the orange light before deciding he'd better. By this time, he has to stop quite hard to stop. So he applies the front brake to friction point (Stage One), then onto a firm pull (Stage Two) before applying pressure with a strong pull at Stage Three.



    Stage Four. The rider very unwisely decides to run the orange only to find, just before he reaches the lights, that they turn red. In this serious situation the rider needs all the braking he's got. So he applies the front brake to friction point, moves onto the firm pull of Stage Two, then to the strong pull of Stage Three, before giving it all he's got at Stage Four.

    11. If you "give it all you've got" on the front brake at Stage Four, won't you get front wheel lockup?

    Possibly but by using the staged braking process, by the time the tyre gets to the point of locking up at Stage Four, the weight has transferred forward onto the front wheel and any tendency of the front tyre to lose grip is both easily sensed and controlled, unlike a front wheel skid caused by a tyre locking up when the brake is jammed on hard while weight is moving around on the bike under weight transfer.



    With correct use of the Four Stage process, controlling a front wheel skid is simply a matter of keeping the wheel steering straight ahead as you relax pressure on the front brake to allow the wheel to revolve again and regain grip.

    12. What will happen if the front wheel locks and I don't relax some pressure?

    You'll fall off as the wheel will eventually tuck under and the bike (and you) will fall down.

    13. How good can you get at emergency braking?

    In emergency stops, expert riders are capable of controlling a front wheel skid by releasing pressure on the front brake just enough to get that wheel turning again without actually letting the brake right off. This requires considerable sensitivity on the brakes and the only way you will gain this sort of sensitivity is to practice.



    At the NZMSC higher level Megarider sessions, the way the instructors tell if the pupil has reached a suitable standard is whether they can hear the front tyre chattering as the tyre grips at the point of adhesion during emergency stops.

    14. Is a bald tyre a liability when braking?

    A treadless tyre will quite adequately handle braking stresses on a perfect road surface. The trouble is that perfect road surfaces are more than rare - they're virtually extinct. Tyre tread acts like a broom, sweeping debris, dirt, gravel and water etc off the road surface in order that the tyre can grip the road.



    The tread on a sensibly ridden motorcycle can comfortably handle most foreign matter on a road surface - with the possible exception of oil (especially diesel oil), thick mud, and smooth wet paint. But link a bald tyre with foreign matter on the road surface and throw in braking stresses for good measure, and the crash will resound throughout the neighbourhood.

    15. How should I brake on slippery and loose surfaces.

    Carefully but not timidly. The secret to good braking on poor surfaces is observation. If you know what's under your wheels you can tailor your braking to the surface.



    So, keep an eye on the road surface. If you cross a slippery surface under strong braking the front wheel may lock. This is why riders who brake late and hard for orange or red lights often spill off - into the middle of the intersection. The fall occurs because the rider fails to ease the front brake as the front wheel crosses the white line that crosses the lanes at the edge of the intersection. Then the front wheel breaks loose under braking on the slippery surface, the rider panics and freezes, and he and his bike head groundwards...



    The basic requirements for braking on a loose surface such as gravel are the same as those applying to braking on a sealed surface. The difference is that you must observe the requirements more strictly on gravel.



    You must brake in plenty of time, preferably brake while upright and in a straight line (any braking while leaned over in gravel is extremely hazardous), use both brakes very progressively, carefully interpret the noise from the front and rear tyre while braking to detect and counteract any wheel lock-up, know your road surface, and take particular care when braking on gradients, inclines, and heavy cambers.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    jameshayes wrote: »
    -touching the front brake - when you do this you lose most of your steering clearance, keep away from the front brake!

    cat-kill-you.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Cheers Tigger.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭ifah


    Ye I pretty much don't touch the front brake except for when im stopped at lights. Not least because of the very obvious weight transfer to the front, and i'd rather have the back wheel completely lock up than get a bit of slide on the front.

    Im not sure if it's restricted or not - but i had a drive of my mates TDR and mine felt a bit pokier. Could be any number of reasons for that though.

    If the weather's right (and i don't end up going out on friday night), myself and the two lads (one seasoned, one beginner ala me) are going to head down to Brittas on Sat morning for our first "tour"! Looking forward to actually have some time between traffic lights to really get a feel for the bike. Gonna try and sort training for the week after then, depending on availability.

    I had a bit of a "why the hell am i blowing this cash" moment last week, but extremely glad I spent it now since i've actually been out!


    PLEASE PLEASE Don't go for a spin with you mates - you're definitely not ready for it - especially the roads you'll likely end up on if you head down Wicklow way.

    Rather than heading to Brittas with 2 mates on Saturday - why not book 3 hour beginners lessons with a pro who will sort out a lot of those silly things in your head (like keeping away from front brakes, steering etc).

    The cash you spend for a lesson will most probably keep you off the tarmac for a while longer.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    ifah wrote: »
    PLEASE PLEASE Don't go for a spin with you mates - you're definitely not ready for it - especially the roads you'll likely end up on if you head down Wicklow way.

    Rather than heading to Brittas with 2 mates on Saturday - why not book 3 hour beginners lessons with a pro who will sort out a lot of those silly things in your head (like keeping away from front brakes, steering etc).

    The cash you spend for a lesson will most probably keep you off the tarmac for a while longer.

    He'll be grand once they take it easy, Brittas is straight down the N81 from Tallaght.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 576 ✭✭✭ifah


    KamiKazi wrote: »
    He'll be grand once they take it easy, Brittas is straight down the N81 from Tallaght.

    Yeah - i know - it's the everpresent temptation to head towards the mountains from there that i'm talking about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭thirtythirty


    Ha, no, well i'm more competant than you might think ifah, but i know damn well to keep away from that kind of stuff you're talking about until post-training!

    This run is precisely for what kamikazi was saying - it's a relatively straight run to get a good feel for the bike, with the plan of taking the Brittas side-roads steady. Nice short trip encompassing traffic, cruising, light cornering, and actually getting somewhere that you can stop and reflect about the trip on with my more experienced mate...all within the safety of roads i know v well!


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