Integrated ticketing testing beginning soon?

paulm17781

I'm not sure, this is the first I heard, from enn.ie

"The Irish Times reports that testing of a new integrated ticketing system for public transport in Dublin is to get under way within weeks, with a pilot project beginning before the summer. According to the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), "bench testing" of card scanners and back-office systems has gone well, and physical testing of the cards on the Luas and Dublin Bus will now begin. Following this, anyone with annual tickets for either Dublin Bus or the Luas will be invited to take part in a pilot project that will get under way "before the summer", according to RPA project manager Tim Gaston. "

bg07

Full article in the Times

Article Link

Irish Times wrote:

Testing of new public transport ticket system to start in weeks

TIM O'BRIEN

TESTING OF the new integrated ticketing system for public transport in Dublin is to get under way within weeks, with a pilot project beginning before the summer.

According to the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) “bench testing” of the card scanners and back-office systems has gone well, and physical testing of the cards on the Luas and Dublin Bus vehicles will now begin.

Following this anyone with annual tickets for either Dublin Bus or Luas will be invited to take part in pilot project which will get under way “before the summer” according to the RPA project manager Tim Gaston.

However, the RPA is keen to avoid a “big bang” opening with service providers and commuters being added gradually over the coming year.

Ultimately all licensed mass public transport providers in Dublin will be able to use the integrated ticketing system, providing Dubliners with a new, flexible way of paying for travel which is similar to the Oyster card employed by Transport for London.

According to Mr Gaston those selected for the pilot project will receive “some reward”. If the project goes well numbers will be expanded and testing will then move on to the pay-as-you-go cards after the summer.

Early next year Irish Rail systems will be integrated and the infrastructure will gradually be rolled out to non-State-owned bus companies.

The system is designed to handle transactions worth hundreds of millions of euro per year, scanning prepaid smart card tickets with “proximity” readers similar to those currently in use for Luas smart cards, and passing on the money to the relevant transport company.

The two main elements of technology are the scanners, the technology for which the RPA is sourcing from Germany, and the “back office” computers which apportion the money. Back-office technology is being provided by IBM.

Mr Gaston said the RPA was in discussion with a number of firms on the provision of credit-loading facilities for the smart cards, but refused to comment on reports that a deal had been done with PayPal for the provision of such services.

The new system is also expected to have an effect on unlicensed operators, making them less attractive to commuters because they will not be able to accept the new cards.

Cookie_Monster

Don't hold your breath.
The RPA is having this taken off them by the DTA or NTA or whetever its going to be called, assume this will require large scale changes to suits their new mandate agenda

KC61

The important thing to note here is that what is being talked about is the electronic purse that will be stored on a smartcard which will be usable on buses, trains and LUAS. From my understanding of the proposal it will not result in people paying one fare for a journey that involves two buses or a combined bus and LUAS journey, or any combination of bus, Luas and train. Each individual trip will be priced and paid for separately.

I am unsure if a daily price cap equivalent to the cost of an appropriate 1 day ticket (similar to that in London) is proposed.

As it is there are now combined period passes for Dublin Bus, Irish Rail and LUAS for both monthly and annual tickets, daily , weekly, monthly and annual tickets for any 2 out of the three above, and weekly tickets that cover Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Irish Rail in the Dublin area, and a national annual version as well.

What this scheme will achieve is that people will need just one card no matter what operator they use but whether it will result in major cash savings I am not so certain about.

KC61

To add to the post above, from what I can see, the people that this project will facilitate principally are:

1) The occasional users of public transport (i.e. non-daily)
2) People who pay either the EUR 1.15 or EUR 1.60 fare on the bus
3) Those who use the private operators' services and also CIE/Luas
4) Those who use one mode regularly and others occasionally

Regular travellers paying EUR 1.80 or above on the bus will generally avail of the prepaid tickets already as they provide cost savings (and if they are not they should be!!). Similarly those regular travellers paying over EUR 2 on the train should use prepaid tickets.

AlekSmart

Regular travellers paying EUR 1.80 or above on the bus will generally avail of the prepaid tickets already as they provide cost savings (and if they are not they should be!!)

Crikey KC61....make it SO !

I am consistently bamboozled by the very significant numbers of REGULAR Bus Users who will insist on paying a €2.20 cash fare each way,each day (€22) rather than purchase a Travel90 ticket which will give them the exact same journeys for €1.80 (€18).

I have,in the past even approached passengers to advise them of the availibility of the T90 and have been reprimanded for my efforts...."It`s not really any of your business" was the last response I got from a young lady travelling from Kilmacanogue to An Lár each day.

Very many T90 users don`t even appreciate that they can use the ticket for unlimited journeys within the 90 Mins (The hint is in the ticket name !!!).
Whilst the Integrated Ticketing Project sounds very futuristic,the reality is we are simply seeing a VERY diluted version of what are quite commonplace arrangements elsewhere in Europe/UK.

When one strips back the PR guff,one sees a fairly standard reloadable stored value card with few bells or whistles such as daily capping.

I just don`t go with this nice n easy does it approach at all.

The reality is that the City has been crying out for some form of fully automated fare regieme for decades now and this just ain`t a speckled hen !!!

paulm17781

AlekSmart wrote: »

"It`s not really any of your business" was the last response I got from a young lady travelling from Kilmacanogue to An Lár each day.

Wow, the world needs more people like her. :rolleyes: Well done on trying to educate people though. I'd have thought that as a bus driver, things like this were literally, your business. She seems to know better though.

I'd like to think they'll take a look east and see what a wonderful system Oyster is and copy it exactly. However seeing as it took them 10 years to get where we are using existing technology, I don't expect it to happen.

AlekSmart

I'd like to think they'll take a look east and see what a wonderful system Oyster is and copy it exactly. However seeing as it took them 10 years to get where we are using existing technology, I don't expect it to happen.

Unfortunately Paulm17781,I feel your expectations will be fully met.

The Oyster and it`s forerunner,the Hong Kong Octopus Card are top-line in terms of functionality and design.

The key is the integration of the essential systems backing the card and once this standard is agreed then it MUST be enforced across all modes without fear or favour.

The UK Oyster system is still a good bit away from full functionality following the long standing refusal of the Surface Rail operators in the London region to buy into it.

However,it seems that following some delicate arm-twisting most of the impedements have been removed and the full-roll out is now progressing (slowly,in some cases).

Sadly our native concept of integration remains somewhat different to the rest-of-the-world which means we need to develop an Irish Solution to an Irish Problem.

This is nowhere near as easy as one might think,as for example,the introduction of a Flat Fare on Bus Atha Cliath is regarded as being akin to wizardry and black magic,even if it would at a stroke allow for huge improvements in off-bus ticketing and serious improvements in Bus Dwell and overall journey times.

At least that`s what the Drivers would say...but the accountants see it differently and as a result we need to consider the macro as well as the micro with special provision made for those who don`t fall into either category,thereby allowing for an agreed compromise solution which the Minister may bring berore the House during the next session ..............well,perhaps...if the consultation and environmental impact assessment goes to plan......:)

In the meantime whats wrong with rummaging around for a few coins...whats your hurry ??????????

KC61

AlekSmart wrote: »

Unfortunately Paulm17781,I feel your expectations will be fully met.

The Oyster and it`s forerunner,the Hong Kong Octopus Card are top-line in terms of functionality and design.

The key is the integration of the essential systems backing the card and once this standard is agreed then it MUST be enforced across all modes without fear or favour.

The UK Oyster system is still a good bit away from full functionality following the long standing refusal of the Surface Rail operators in the London region to buy into it.

However,it seems that following some delicate arm-twisting most of the impedements have been removed and the full-roll out is now progressing (slowly,in some cases).

Sadly our native concept of integration remains somewhat different to the rest-of-the-world which means we need to develop an Irish Solution to an Irish Problem.

This is nowhere near as easy as one might think,as for example,the introduction of a Flat Fare on Bus Atha Cliath is regarded as being akin to wizardry and black magic,even if it would at a stroke allow for huge improvements in off-bus ticketing and serious improvements in Bus Dwell and overall journey times.

At least that`s what the Drivers would say...but the accountants see it differently and as a result we need to consider the macro as well as the micro with special provision made for those who don`t fall into either category,thereby allowing for an agreed compromise solution which the Minister may bring berore the House during the next session ..............well,perhaps...if the consultation and environmental impact assessment goes to plan......:)

In the meantime whats wrong with rummaging around for a few coins...whats your hurry ??????????

Well some good news Alek, effective January 1st Oyster pay as you go was finally rolled out on all the surface rail services around London!

As for the "accountants" - remember it was the Department who insisted on retaining the staged fare structure. Dublin Bus management wanted to introduce a flat fare at the time of the Euro changeover but were overruled!

Colm R

I am very worried about the way this is being implemented. As mentioned, it does not look like there will be anything smart about this ticket - essentially its looking to be a debit card.

And the biggest downfall of all this is, a difference in price will remain in place according to where you live and what operator exists there, as opposed to the distance you actually travel.

I don't want a debit card. I want a card that is actually smart.

One that charges you the price of a return journey from where you live to where you need to get to everyday no matter what you use to get there.

One that has a daily cap and even a weekly, monthly and yearly cap.

And if the revenue must go to the operator, then it could work out a system where the % travelled on each mode for my ticket goes to that operator.

But alas I think its just going to be a debit card.

Stevek101

Where did all this stuff about it being useless come from? Isn't the NTA in charge of fares now?

promoting an integrated public transport network, implementing integrated ticketing, fares and information schemes, regulating fares and encouraging increased public transport use.

Does it actually say anywhere that new integrated fares won't be implemented alongside the ticket?

bk

So this seems to be two things:

1) All the existing paper tickets (t90, weekly, monthly, etc.) on a contact less card.

2) A simple ewallet for buying tickets, like on the luas, but with no sharing between companies or daily cap.

That is ok, but really the above could have and should have been easily implemented 5 years ago.

Then we could have spent the past 5 years arguing about how to move to a proper integrated ticketing, with all the difficulties of revenue sharing, etc.

At the very least I think Dublin Bus really does need to move to a single fare system, something like €1 to €1.20 for people who pay by card and €4 for people who pay by cash. Otherwise they won't really get the benefit of this as people paying by epurse will still need to tell the driver what ticket they want and for him to enter it.

BTW I've done some back of the beer mat calculations and from what I can tell I think it should be possible to move to this sort of model and still break even or perhaps even make more money! I'll post the details when I've more time.

BBTW For god sake please also add my Dublin Bike scheme subscription to this card.

Slice

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am consistently bamboozled by the very significant numbers of REGULAR Bus Users who will insist on paying a €2.20 cash fare each way,each day (€22) rather than purchase a Travel90 ticket which will give them the exact same journeys for €1.80 (€18)

This is true but I still think the failure is with the various service providers (and whoever regulates them) in allowing a myriad and unnecessary number of confusing ticket types to saturate the market.

dowlingm

The smart card is really two parts - the card itself and the stuff it validates against. For me the key is to keep the card simple and the validators clever, to allow the fare system to evolve without requiring the cards to be changed out or have them store a lot of what could be pretty important info about where someone had been over a period of time.

AlekSmart

Otherwise they won't really get the benefit of this as people paying by epurse will still need to tell the driver what ticket they want and for him to enter it.

I hope bk has a few beer mats to spare.....

When the initial Bus Atha Cliath Smartcard programme was mooted,there was a suggestion from within the team that a compromise could be operated.

This would entail a standard electronic fare of c.€1.80 which would at a stroke cover a substantial number of passengers.
The compromise was the retention of the lower fares with a manual deduction by the driver with the Passenger presenting the card to the drivers machine reader.

This was/is a far from perfect situation,but was/is workable.

However it should not be where we are at right now.

This situation really is a glowing example of why we needed to "get somebody in" to do it,or more specifically to "get somebody in" to do the Department of Transport`s work and Impliment the entire programme NOW.

What we are currently doing is tempting fate in a big way and with no guarantee of any real incentive for people to take up the thing !!

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

I hope bk has a few beer mats to spare.....

While I still don't have the time to dig up the figures, here are a few interesting questions to ask.

Going by London Bus, roughly 10% of people continue to pay by cash. If you charge €4 for cash transactions, will the extra cash from these potentially offset the loss from cheaper tickets?

But the more interesting question and daring idea is, if you make the electronic fare cheap enough, for instance just €1 or €1.20, can you expect an increase in passenger numbers? What percentage increase can you expect? And what percentage increase do you need to offset the loss in ticket fares?

A 10% increase in passengers seems quiet possible if fares dropped to €1.20, would that be enough to make up loss in ticket prices?

It is bit like the Ryanair model. The cost of running a bus is the same if it is half full or full (maybe a little extra diesel). Drop the price, you attract new customers which help offset the costs.

I think we stand at a time of great opportunity for Dublin Bus, if they were to introduce integrated contact less card ticketing, single fare, the GPS positioning system and new redesigned routes around the same time, I believe DB could attract a lot of new customers.

paulm17781

Metro ridership in Paris went up something like 40% overnight when they introduced the integrated tickets. If only our politicians could get their heads out of their arses.

Colm R

dowlingm wrote: »

The smart card is really two parts - the card itself and the stuff it validates against. For me the key is to keep the card simple and the validators clever, to allow the fare system to evolve without requiring the cards to be changed out or have them store a lot of what could be pretty important info about where someone had been over a period of time.

In theory, the smart card might only have to contain the serial number of the ticket, and all the other details such as name, address and remaining balance/days/hours can be kept on the system. However this depends on how well connected the card readers are to the network which could be difficult on buses.

More than likely, the cards will contain the remainig balance (or time) and the system will work out if the journey is valid.

The issue of a standard fare for buses is a little more difficult. Its easier because in cities like London, long bus journeys are more rare as buses are generally used to deliver people to train stations so flat fares make sense. Whereas in Dublin the bus will remain for a long time to come, the main method of mass transit. However we could overcome this with a large advertising campaign of 'Tag On Tag Off'. They are implementing this is Amsterdam at the moment with some success.

Their system is pretty good, as there are card readers at verious points in the bus, so you do not need to tag on or off at the door.

From an inspection point of view, a hand held card reader can be used to simply ensure the card is currently tagged on which should allow for quicker inspection of fare paying passengers and hence more thorough inspection.

markpb

Colm R wrote: »

However we could overcome this with a large advertising campaign of 'Tag On Tag Off'. They are implementing this is Amsterdam at the moment with some success.

I haven't been on a bus in Amsterdam but I'm willing to bet the house that their buses have multiple doors. Tagging on and off on a single-door bus would be terrible and destroy any semblance of a real bus service.

Colm R

markpb wrote: »

I haven't been on a bus in Amsterdam but I'm willing to bet the house that their buses have multiple doors. Tagging on and off on a single-door bus would be terrible and destroy any semblance of a real bus service.

Yes, multiple doors exist. Your house is safe.

I don't understand why we don't use multiple doors.

But, that said, in general at busy stops where people get on and off in large numbers, people get off first before being allowed on. Most people have the good manners to do this.

The way I see it though, its either flat fare and tag on only, or variable fares and tag on/off.

The good thing about this is it takes a lot of responsiblity away from the dirver and lets them do what they do best - drive.

KC61

Colm R wrote: »

I am very worried about the way this is being implemented. As mentioned, it does not look like there will be anything smart about this ticket - essentially its looking to be a debit card.

And the biggest downfall of all this is, a difference in price will remain in place according to where you live and what operator exists there, as opposed to the distance you actually travel.

I don't want a debit card. I want a card that is actually smart.

One that charges you the price of a return journey from where you live to where you need to get to everyday no matter what you use to get there.

One that has a daily cap and even a weekly, monthly and yearly cap.

And if the revenue must go to the operator, then it could work out a system where the % travelled on each mode for my ticket goes to that operator.

But alas I think its just going to be a debit card.

I am afraid that what you wish for is not what you are getting.

My understanding of what this electronic smartcard will offer is:
1) The ability to store period passes
2) Discounted single trips of say 20c
3) Where the user then continues onto either a second/third bus or a LUAS/train a further discount on the second trip of say 30c.

However, and this is the key. Each individual trip will still be priced separately based on the appropriate cash fare and a discount applied at the end of the journey. In other words, say you have a trip from say Sandyford Village to the city and you take the 44 bus to Dundrum and then the LUAS. The cash fares of EUR 1.15 and EUR 1.90 add to a total of EUR 3.05. A combined discount of say EUR 0.50 might apply leading to a fare of EUR 2.55 being taken. This is still more than that on the bus alone of EUR 2.20, which discounted might be EUR 2.00.

The point on this is that the scheme is being administered and set up by people who are not users of public transport and who (in the main) do not think like public transport users. It is entirely operator focussed. Therefore I do fully expect a differential between bus/train/luas fares.

The discounts though are not going to be anything like that offered by Oyster - in other words I certainly have heard no suggestion that cash fares will be significantly increased.

I still don't know how the bus fares are going to work. There may well be a standard fare that will be deducted (say EUR 1.80) if you use the smartcard reader on the right, but if your journey involves another fare then you would need to touch the drivers machine and tell him what fare you need. Unless the staged fare system is abandoned then I cannot see how else this will work. That is where the politicians need to be lobbied as they seem to think this will solve all the problems.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

Wow, the world needs more people like her. :rolleyes: Well done on trying to educate people though. I'd have thought that as a bus driver, things like this were literally, your business. She seems to know better though.

I'd like to think they'll take a look east and see what a wonderful system Oyster is and copy it exactly. However seeing as it took them 10 years to get where we are using existing technology, I don't expect it to happen.

Oyster pay-as-you-go still prices trips individually based on zones for the Underground and surface rail, and flat fares on the bus, but caps the total price on any one day at 50p less than the cost of a 1 day travel card for the zones that you travel in.

KC61

Slice wrote: »

This is true but I still think the failure is with the various service providers (and whoever regulates them) in allowing a myriad and unnecessary number of confusing ticket types to saturate the market.

I have to admit that I am at a loss by this. The range of prepaid tickets is fairly simple - it is just not marketed in a co-ordinated way. That's the real problem.

Basically there are 1 day/weekly/monthly and annual tickets for single mode (e.g. bus only), two modes (e.g.bus/train) and then monthly and annual for 3 modes (bus/rail/luas). There are also the 10 Journey Travel 90 tickets. Dublin Bus bus only tickets are ahead of the others as they offer non-consecutive days travel over an 18 month period.

Once you know what tickets are available then it is not that hard to choose the appropriate one for you. The problem is that you have to look at each operator's separate websites to find out the range of tickets, and Irish Rail don't even publish all of theirs!! What is needed is a single page listing ALL of the tickets available, be it CIE, LUAS or private operators.

What are excluded are the small number of privately operated services from the multi-mode tickets.

For any daily user of public transport in Dublin paying over EUR 1.60 per trip there is already an integrated ticket out there for them - this smartcard is not going to change that.

KC61

bk wrote: »

I think we stand at a time of great opportunity for Dublin Bus, if they were to introduce integrated contact less card ticketing, single fare, the GPS positioning system and new redesigned routes around the same time, I believe DB could attract a lot of new customers.

I think that you have hit the nail on the head bk.

Think back to when DART was launched. At the same time 8 DART Feeder routes were introduced which offered the facility to purchase a single ticket for the bus and DART.

52 (Sydney Parade-Kilmacud)
59 (Dun Laoghaire-Killiney)
88 (Howth-Sutton via Howth Summit)
90 (Heuston-Connolly)
101 (Harmonstown-Beaumont Hospital)
102 (Sutton-Malahide)
111 (Dun Laoghaire-Loughlinstown)
113 (Blackrock-Cabinteely)
114 (Blackrock-Kilcross)

Now, only the 90, 102, 111 and 114 remain as DART feeders. Yes you can buy a ticket from Dublin Airport on the 102 from the driver to any DART station.

Why did this fail you may ask? Simple - it was managed and marketed ineptly. Buses would not wait if the DART was late, when DART times changed bus times were not altered, the 102 would get stuck at the level crossing gates in Sutton for the DART to go without the passengers, there is no information publicly available about the fares, options etc. I could go on and on with this.

The fundamental prerequisite for public transport to succeed is that it is integrated. Feeder buses must be co-ordinated with train timetables and have sufficient wriggle room built into the schedules to allow for trains being late.

This smartcard is a desireable extra - the fundamental is getting a simplified bus network that allows for intermediate times, direct routes, clockface scheduling and for those buses serving rail stations - integrated timetables.

The key in attracting new business is that public transport must be seen to be convenient and simple - waiting for 30 minutes for the next feeder bus will and has put people off public transport for life.

Implementing the Deloitte report through the Dublin Bus network review, rolling out real time passenger information online, at stops and via mobiles together with a complete change in focus in the design of services to be on the customer are for me the absolute key to getting this right.

As it is as I've said above there is already a prepaid ticket available for most regular users of public transport. What the smartcard purse will primarily facilitate is the more occasional user and those paying EUR 1.60 or less on the bus.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

Oyster pay-as-you-go still prices trips individually based on zones for the Underground and surface rail, and flat fares on the bus, but caps the total price on any one day at 50p less than the cost of a 1 day travel card for the zones that you travel in.

Oh, in that case it's useless. :rolleyes:

If we were even close to offering anything like that, this thread wouldn't exist. We are so far away from getting this right it is shocking.

Nevyn

KC61 wrote: »

I have to admit that I am at a loss by this. The range of prepaid tickets is fairly simple - it is just not marketed in a co-ordinated way. That's the real problem.

There is also the lack of vendors.
Yes I know know if you have a credit card you can buy the tickets on line,
but not everyone has so why can't that be done with laser?

Why aren't there ticket vending machines in prominent public places?
Why are there so few vendors?
If a person has to walk/travel 15/20 mins to get to a shop to get a ticket
(and not all shops carry all tickets) they won't bother.

Blanchardstown shopping center is an example of this, the majority of the bus stops are on one side of the center and the only shop that sells tickets is the far side, not in the main building but one of the strips of shops.
The center has 24 hour security, why isn't there a vending machine by the bus stop, like the one in the airport?

The t90 is a good ticket I don't see why there is not the same for kids.

KC61

Thaedydal wrote: »

There is also the lack of vendors.
Yes I know know if you have a credit card you can buy the tickets on line,
but not everyone has so why can't that be done with laser?

Why aren't there ticket vending machines in prominent public places?
Why are there so few vendors?
If a person has to walk/travel 15/20 mins to get to a shop to get a ticket
(and not all shops carry all tickets) they won't bother.

Blanchardstown shopping center is an example of this, the majority of the bus stops are on one side of the center and the only shop that sells tickets is the far side, not in the main building but one of the strips of shops.
The center has 24 hour security, why isn't there a vending machine by the bus stop, like the one in the airport?

The t90 is a good ticket I don't see why there is not the same for kids.

It's a very point regarding the availability of ticket machines. The only ones that are in operation are at the airport.

There needs to be the ability to buy at major stops. Yes there are 400 Dublin Bus agents around the city but as you say - convenience is the key thing here in making public transport a viable option.

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

Oh, in that case it's useless. :rolleyes:

If we were even close to offering anything like that, this thread wouldn't exist. We are so far away from getting this right it is shocking.

I've tried to explain this here on several occasions but until now no-one seems to have grasped that what is on offer is certainly not what most people expect.

However, again at the end of the day how many people would such functionality appeal to? As I see it principally the occasional user. Regular users need appropriate period passes, many of which already exist. The problem is people do not know about them.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

I've tried to explain this here on several occasions but until now no-one seems to have grasped that what is on offer is certainly not what most people expect.

However, again at the end of the day how many people would such functionality appeal to? As I see it principally the occasional user. Regular users need appropriate period passes, many of which already exist. The problem is people do not know about them.

In London it is very easy to reach the cost of a one day travel card, I save a fortune every time I go over because of Oyster. Now, if they'd bother to do anything like that here....

Stevek101

Thaedydal wrote: »

The t90 is a good ticket I don't see why there is not the same for kids.

10 Journey Travel 90 Schoolchild Ticket (u16yrs) €6.50.

* Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel
* Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services (excluding Xpresso, Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events, Private Contract service)
* Valid to and from primary & secondary school up to 17:00hrs
(Monday - Friday) & up to 13:30hrs on Saturday
* Schoolchild ID Required
Buy now

10 Journey Travel 90 Scholar Ticket (16-18yrs) €10.00.

* Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel
* Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services (excluding Xpresso, Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events, Private Contract services)
* Valid to and from secondary school up to 17:00hrs (Monday - Friday) & up to 13:30hrs on Saturday
* Scholar ID Required
Buy now

KC61

paulm17781 wrote: »

In London it is very easy to reach the cost of a one day travel card, I save a fortune every time I go over because of Oyster. Now, if they'd bother to do anything like that here....

This is the thing that I do not know - if there is to be a price cap.

At the moment there's none with the LUAS smartcard which makes a complete nonsense of the product. Sure it's handy for very occasional LUAS users such as myself, but if you take more than 3 trips at the EUR 2 fare in one day it is then of no value.

robd

To be honest if you want anything delivered at all I think you have to separate the issues of the Integrated Smart Cards and Fare Structures. The reason the project has been so delayed was due to trying to associate the two. Get the systems talking, get people using the cards, increase outlets selling the cards and topups , and get the big glitches out while patronage is low.

Then regulate at government level for proper multi operator mode zonal fare structures, introduce punitive cash charges particularly at rush hour and hopefully increase patronage and efficiency.

KC61

robd wrote: »

To be honest if you want anything delivered at all I think you have to separate the issues of the Integrated Smart Cards and Fare Structures. The reason the project has been so delayed was due to trying to associate the two. Get the systems talking, get people using the cards, increase outlets selling the cards and topups , and get the big glitches out while patronage is low.

Then regulate at government level for proper multi operator mode zonal fare structures, introduce punitive cash charges particularly at rush hour and hopefully increase patronage and efficiency.

Very good point. However I still believe that the vast majority of daily users are covered by an existing product. The people that are not are those paying the low fares or occasional users of multi-modes (Dublin Bus caters for bus only occasional users with its existing smartcards).

Whether there is the political will or nous to do the second of your points I do not know. I have not heard anything about zonal fares on either the bus or train.

antoinolachtnai

The problem I would say is that the most marginally profitable customers on Dublin Bus are not covered by any product.

By this I mean people travelling relatively short distances for 1.60 or less. This is discretionary spend, i.e., you might take a bus, or you might walk. This type of journey will 'top up' the bus and fill spare capacity that exists on a stage carriage service. There is no marginal cost to serving these customers (i.e., you don't need to run any buses to serve them). If you come up with an appropriate product for these customers, that makes it easier and a bit cheaper to get on the bus, I think you will get some lift in passenger numbers.

One problem at the moment is that there are quite a few products, each with a different plastic card. This is a problem for two reasons - for the customer, it seems complicated (even though, as you rightly point out, it isn't really that bad). The other problem is for the bus company and retailer - you have to administer all these different ticket types, manage the inventory to make sure retailers don't run out of any type of tickets, deal with ticket returns, and try and minimise theft and loss of tickets in the supply chain. This is actually very complicated and expensive to do.

Nevyn

Stevek101 wrote: »

10 Journey Travel 90 Schoolchild Ticket (u16yrs) €6.50.

* Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel
* Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services (excluding Xpresso, Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events, Private Contract service)
* Valid to and from primary & secondary school up to 17:00hrs
(Monday - Friday) & up to 13:30hrs on Saturday
* Schoolchild ID Required
Buy now

10 Journey Travel 90 Scholar Ticket (16-18yrs) €10.00.

* Valid for 10 journeys of 90 minutes unlimited travel
* Valid on Dublin Bus scheduled services (excluding Xpresso, Airlink, Nitelink, Tours, Special Events, Private Contract services)
* Valid to and from secondary school up to 17:00hrs (Monday - Friday) & up to 13:30hrs on Saturday
* Scholar ID Required
Buy now

Those are for kids traveling to and from school, I meant for outside of school hours.

bk

robd wrote: »

To be honest if you want anything delivered at all I think you have to separate the issues of the Integrated Smart Cards and Fare Structures. The reason the project has been so delayed was due to trying to associate the two. Get the systems talking, get people using the cards, increase outlets selling the cards and topups , and get the big glitches out while patronage is low.

Then regulate at government level for proper multi operator mode zonal fare structures, introduce punitive cash charges particularly at rush hour and hopefully increase patronage and efficiency.

I agree 100%, the not really integrated system we are currently getting should have been rolled out 5 years ago and then they could have focused on the argument of proper fare integration along with timetable, route and control integration.

KC61 is also correct about the lack of integrated information about the existing products. This shows why we need the D/NTA not be just another stupid talking shop but a true overarching organisation with real control of all the operators in Dublin. A single brand (e.g. Dublin Metro) for all buses, trains, Luas, Dart, etc., with all the services having the same colour scheme and branding, with a single website with the ticketing information and route maps and planners all in the same place for easy use and access by customers. Of course this organisation also need the power to actually change routes and integrate them.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The problem I would say is that the most marginally profitable customers on Dublin Bus are not covered by any product.

By this I mean people travelling relatively short distances for 1.60 or less. This is discretionary spend, i.e., you might take a bus, or you might walk. This type of journey will 'top up' the bus and fill spare capacity that exists on a stage carriage service. There is no marginal cost to serving these customers (i.e., you don't need to run any buses to serve them). If you come up with an appropriate product for these customers, that makes it easier and a bit cheaper to get on the bus, I think you will get some lift in passenger numbers.

One problem at the moment is that there are quite a few products, each with a different plastic card. This is a problem for two reasons - for the customer, it seems complicated (even though, as you rightly point out, it isn't really that bad). The other problem is for the bus company and retailer - you have to administer all these different ticket types, manage the inventory to make sure retailers don't run out of any type of tickets, deal with ticket returns, and try and minimise theft and loss of tickets in the supply chain. This is actually very complicated and expensive to do.

Very succinctly put!

Carawaystick

My smartcard irish rail ticket hasn't worked first time any day this week at any scanner.
There are signs directing smartcard users all over the shop at the train stations I use, and the directions seem different every day too.

Is it too hard to get the new turnstiles to actually work with the tickets first without messing with integrated tickets?

Also there was a ticket check at a station I got off at last week. had any of the irish rail staff a reader to check my smartcard?
no. I had to stop and root through my wallet for it. then there's nothing on it they could see if it was in date or not so the whole thing was pointless from a revenue protection point of view and only held me and other passengers up.

antoinolachtnai

They're not integrated tickets. They're the interim Irish Rail scheme. [UPDATE/CORRECTION: My bad, I thought previous poster was saying that these were integrated tickets, but this is clearly not what he meant.]

Carawaystick

They're smart cards. They are issued by IÉ. They don't work on IÉ's equipment. How the jaysus does anyone think another companies card will work with IÉ's equipment?

The same issue will arise regarding checking by IÉ staff if I had a contactless smartcard integrated ticket.

bk

Carawaystick wrote: »

They're smart cards. They are issued by IÉ. They don't work on IÉ's equipment. How the jaysus does anyone think another companies card will work with IÉ's equipment?

Because it is easily done in most other countries.

How this is done in most other countries is one over arching organisation like Transport For London, buys all the equipment and cards (and gains gains cost reductions for scale), installs and integrates all the equipment and then each company pays for their share towards the cost of the scheme.

It will probably be a mess here because we are going about it arse ways, letting each company buy and install their own equipment, from different vendors.

KC61

Carawaystick wrote: »

They're smart cards. They are issued by IÉ. They don't work on IÉ's equipment. How the jaysus does anyone think another companies card will work with IÉ's equipment?

The same issue will arise regarding checking by IÉ staff if I had a contactless smartcard integrated ticket.

In fairness the whole IE smartcard is still in the testing phase.

robd

bk wrote: »

Because it is easily done in most other countries.

How this is done in most other countries is one over arching organisation like Transport For London, buys all the equipment and cards (and gains gains cost reductions for scale), installs and integrates all the equipment and then each company pays for their share towards the cost of the scheme.

It will probably be a mess here because we are going about it arse ways, letting each company buy and install their own equipment, from different vendors.

In fairness it's not too much different from tags for the toll booths around the country. Loads of glitches in the early days. All operators running on their own not talking to one another. Now they're all linked up. My easypass works fine everywhere. Where some glitches on the East Link before they replaced the equipment last year. Even worked the whole way to Galway and that's the latest part to open.

Slice

Where can I get an IE smartcard? I saw a thread about it before but the link to the edition to the metro doesn't work for me

Carawaystick

KC61 wrote: »

In fairness the whole IE smartcard is still in the testing phase.

I'm fairly sure IÉ had smartcards in use in 2007, when the new machines were installed in Tara st.
They were definitely in use from whenever the exit validation kicked in as I remember one Saturday night waiting for everyone who couldn't buy a ticket before they traveled pay and the ticket inspector handwrite their tickets before letting me out, as my annual magstripe ticket had worn out....again....
by swiping the part of the machine with the radio for the smartcards with his smartcard.

I doesn't seem to have taken the Corpo that long to get their smartcards for their bikes working....

KC61

Slice wrote: »

Where can I get an IE smartcard? I saw a thread about it before but the link to the edition to the metro doesn't work for me

The electronic purse, i.e. pay-as-you-go smartcard has only been issued to a limited number of individuals at present as it is in the initial test phase at the moment.

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm fairly sure IÉ had smartcards in use in 2007, when the new machines were installed in Tara st.
They were definitely in use from whenever the exit validation kicked in as I remember one Saturday night waiting for everyone who couldn't buy a ticket before they traveled pay and the ticket inspector handwrite their tickets before letting me out, as my annual magstripe ticket had worn out....again....
by swiping the part of the machine with the radio for the smartcards with his smartcard.

I doesn't seem to have taken the Corpo that long to get their smartcards for their bikes working....

Eh, smartcard period passes were only introduced by IE in 2009.

Carawaystick

KC61 wrote: »

Eh, smartcard period passes were only introduced by IE in 2009.

Staff had smartcard passes years ago.
None of this explains why they are working badly now.
Dublin Corpo introduced the smartcards in 2009 and there's no issues. Why couldn't IÉ?

KC61

Fair enough but it may have something to do with the recent introduction of the pay-as-you-go cards. As I said the scheme is still in the overall test phase.

markpb

Carawaystick wrote: »

Dublin Corpo introduced the smartcards in 2009 and there's no issues. Why couldn't IÉ?

I'm never one to defend Irish Rail but there's a world of a difference between the two products. The DB card is only used to store an account number and (possibly) a PIN. After that, the on-street machines don't use the card at all. Irish Rail's card is an on-card purse which can also store period tickets. The readers need to be a lot more intelligent, need to figure out which ticket to use or whether to debit the purse and need to store price rules for the entire Dart/Suburban network.

bk

robd wrote: »

In fairness it's not too much different from tags for the toll booths around the country. Loads of glitches in the early days.

I've no problem with that, as a software engineer I know well that any new system will have bugs in the early days, I've got two problems with all of this:

1) It should have been rolled out 5 years ago.
2) We aren't getting a true integrated ticketing system like most other countries have.

munchkin_utd

bloody right

Dublin bus and irish rail already have a common ticketing system with the magnetic stripe. For all its faults, it's there, it's cheap and it works.

re revenue sharing, theres already a common model across bus eireann, dublin bus and irish rail with the short hop tickets etc.

The copped on way of doing things would have been to develop this further in that cash fares also use the common fare sharing mechanism and keep the magnetic stripe to allow for a connection, like in cities like Paris, Tolouse or Rennes to name three places that have cash fares with mag stripe tickets.