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Answering the New Atheism by Scot Hahn

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    #62
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Stephentlig wrote: »
    Thomas said that unless he saw Jesus he wouldnt beleive, Jesus then appeared, thomas put his fingers into his wounds, but whats suprising is that St.Thomas had the power of free will and could still of refused to believe. ''Blessed are those who do not see yet believe''

    only through faith can we ever know God.

    Thomas is a very good example to cite.

    There you have it : one of Christ's apostle's, a man who had met and known Christ, even he doubted.


    I am not sure that there is any point in wasting time discussing the existence of God with agnostics/atheists.


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    #63
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Stephentlig wrote: »
    Because to God there is no such thing as dying, therefore his doctrine is not about clinging to the current world, but working out ones salvation here in fear and trembling to be assured of a place in the next.
    So why does he cure anyone since his doctrine is not about clinging to this world? And why is anyone convinced by these unexplained cures since, again, his doctrine is not about clinging to this world? Since there is no such thing as dying to your god, surely if anyone is involved in these cures it's not him?


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    #64
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Stephentlig wrote: »
    because it was done through his one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

    Did you really just say that I should believe it was Jesus because it was Jesus? :confused:


    That didn't really answer the question tbh. If someone is cured and the cure is unexplained by medical science, why should I attribute the cure to a Palestinian who was written about 2000 years ago and not, say, an Arab who was written about 1500 years ago? Or any of the other religions and superstitions that people have attributed such things to in the past


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    #65
    Stephentlig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Stephentlig


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Why?

    because how do I know its true? like I said with St.Thomas, such is the power of free will that he could of rejected that it was Jesus standing in front of him, even after he had touched his wounds.

    I have to put my faith into a human explanation of things and its evidence, no matter what we beleive in it requires both belief and trust which is faith.


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    #66
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    So why does he cure anyone since his doctrine is not about clinging to this world? And why is anyone convinced by these unexplained cures since, again, his doctrine is not about clinging to this world? Since there is no such thing as dying to your god, surely if anyone is involved in these cures it's not him?

    Physical body dies.
    The soul is eternal.


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    #67
    PoleStar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 774 ✭✭✭PoleStar


    hinault wrote: »
    Thomas is a very good example to cite.

    There you have it : one of Christ's apostle's, a man who had met and known Christ, even he doubted.


    I am not sure that there is any point in wasting time discussing the existence of God with agnostics/atheists.

    The funny thing is that as an atheist, I totally agree with you, Thomas is a good example to site!

    Show any hardened atheist the physical proof that Thomas had of a man who was clearly dead and yet now not dead and we would be converted!

    Things is tho, we only have the word written in a book pieced together written in a book 2000 years old.

    Tell me, if I said to you I met a man in a forest with fatal wounds who told me he was the son of god and then he ascended into heaven last friday, would believe me?


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    #68
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    hinault wrote: »
    Physical body dies.
    The soul is eternal.

    Ok. That didn't really answer the question of why one or two people being cured in unexplained ways indicates the existence of the specific god mentioned in the bible, given that there are billions who are not cured.


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    #69
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Ok. That didn't really answer the question of why one or two people being cured in unexplained ways indicates god's existence, given that there are billions who are not cured.

    True, many are not cured.

    Some, are cured however.
    And where there is no "scientific" explanation as to why a person with a terminal condition, there has to be some other explanation for that cure.

    The existence of God is revealed in many ways. to millions/billions of people in different ways.
    I am sure that where a cure is provided without scientific explanation, this may persuade some people to believe in God.
    But I am certain that God's existence is revealed through many more ways.


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    #70
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    hinault wrote: »
    True, many are not cured.

    Some, are cured however.
    And where there is no "scientific" explanation as to why a person with a terminal condition, there has to be some other explanation for that cure.

    Sorry mate but all I'm seeing there is "I don't know so it must be god". The fact that we can't explain something means nothing more than we can't explain it. Imagine yourself in Iron age Scandinavia asking yourself the very same question about thunder and lightning and it wouldn't be long until you were a fully fledged believer in Thor.
    hinault wrote: »
    The existence of God is revealed in many ways. to millions/billions of people in different ways.
    I am sure that where a cure is provided without scientific explanation, this may persuade some people to believe in God.
    But I am certain that God's existence is revealed through many more ways.

    Such as.....

    And do these ways point specifically to the christian god as described in the bible or could they just as easily be attributed to many other deities?


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    #71
    Stephentlig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Stephentlig


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    So why does he cure anyone since his doctrine is not about clinging to this world? And why is anyone convinced by these unexplained cures since, again, his doctrine is not about clinging to this world? Since there is no such thing as dying to your god, surely if anyone is involved in these cures it's not him?

    he lets some live to be a witness to his existence so that others may hear and be converted, and he does this out of his boundless mercy, but our intelligently stupid ignorance rejects their witness and refuses to acknowledge the one true God.


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    #72
    Stephentlig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Stephentlig


    hinault wrote: »
    Thomas is a very good example to cite.

    There you have it : one of Christ's apostle's, a man who had met and known Christ, even he doubted.


    I am not sure that there is any point in wasting time discussing the existence of God with agnostics/atheists.

    exactly, after all the miracles of Jesus and healings he did in the Gospel, thomas witness them all and yet still doubted at the very end.

    even the religious pharisees had the same attitude as non believers, they posed the same question that the devil quoted to Jesus in the desert whi was ''if you are God then you'll.........;)


    No God will not meet us on our conditions and never will, either we believe under his condition ( faith ) or we dont.


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    #73
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Sorry mate but all I'm seeing there is "I don't know so it must be god". The fact that we can't explain something means nothing more than we can't explain it. Imagine yourself in Iron age Scandinavia asking yourself the very same question about thunder and lightning and it wouldn't be long until you were a fully fledged believer in Thor.



    Such as.....

    And do these ways point specifically to the christian god as described in the bible or could they just as easily be attributed to many other deities


    Err, sorry mate, but I don't judge the existence/non-existence of God upon whether or not a cure is granted to a person who is sick.
    And I'd prefer it if you'd kindly desist from parsing my replies - and instead
    quote my full reply.
    OK?

    There are many factors which persuade me that God exists.
    Whether these factors would persuade you to believe in the existence of God, is for you to decide.

    What I will say in finishing is that faith is highly subjective : and what may persuade one person, may not persuade another person.


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    #74
    PoleStar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 774 ✭✭✭PoleStar


    hinault wrote: »
    Some, are cured however.
    And where there is no "scientific" explanation as to why a person with a terminal condition, there has to be some other explanation for that cure.

    Ah yes, the god of the gaps!

    The argument of assuming that our current level of human understanding must be the ultimate peak and thus anything outside of our ability to explain in current times must be god.


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    #75
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Stephentlig wrote: »
    he lets some live to be a witness to his existence so that others may hear and be converted, and he does this out of his boundless mercy, but our intelligently stupid ignorance rejects their witness and refuses to acknowledge the one true God.

    So this is what happens:

    1. God allows billions of people to suffer horrendously and die horrible deaths when he could prevent it all if he chose
    2. He doesn't prevent this suffering and death because there is no such thing as dying to him. Free will is irrelevant because you acknowledge we would have it even if he did cure everyone or stop them getting sick in the first place
    3. He arbitrarily chooses to cure the occasional person with no discernible pattern and never in a way that is clearly physically impossible such as re-growing an arm, he only cures people in ways where medical science may not be able to explain it but recovery was still possible, however unlikely. He does this despite the fact that death is meaningless to him
    4. While wanting people to be witness to him, he never makes it objectively and abundantly clear that it was specifically him that was involved (and he hopes that no ones sees the contradiction in the idea of a god to whom death is meaningless helping someone to avoid death), leading to a situation where followers of other faiths think that the god they were raised with cured them and they gain an ever stronger faith in this false god (or begin to believe in this false god), thereby dooming themselves to hell.

    Makes perfect sense :confused:


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    #76
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Any particular reason why I should allow this thread to stay open? We have been here before, no?


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    #77
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    hinault wrote: »
    Err, sorry mate, but I don't judge the existence/non-existence of God upon whether or not a cure is granted to a person who is sick.
    And I'd prefer it if you'd kindly desist from parsing my replies - and instead
    quote my full reply.
    OK?
    I did quote your full reply and asked a question about the last part which you didn't answer. I asked you what these other things were. I know that people being cured is not your sole reason for believing but you did infer that if science cannot find an explanation then saying god did it is logical, which it is not, as I explained.
    hinault wrote: »
    There are many factors which persuade me that God exists.
    Whether these factors would persuade you to believe in the existence of God, is for you to decide.

    What I will say in finishing is that faith is highly subjective : and what may persuade one person, may not persuade another person.
    Such as......


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    #78
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    PoleStar wrote: »
    Ah yes, the god of the gaps!

    The argument of assuming that our current level of human understanding must be the ultimate peak and thus anything outside of our ability to explain in current times must be god.

    I am not making the assumption that you assert.

    I am suggesting that in the absence of a scientific explanation, that there has to be some other explanation.


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    #79
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    hinault wrote: »
    I am not making the assumption that you assert.

    I am suggesting that in the absence of a scientific explanation, that there has to be some other explanation.

    Yes there must be some other explanation. There is an explanation for everything whether we happen to know what the explanation is or not. If that's all you're saying then we have no dispute but if, as I suspect, you are suggesting that if we don't have an explanation for something it is reasonable to infer the involvement of a specific deity.....


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    #80
    Stephentlig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Stephentlig


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    So this is what happens:

    1. God allows billions of people to suffer horrendously and die horrible deaths when he could prevent it all if he chose
    2. He doesn't prevent this suffering and death because there is no such thing as dying to him. Free will is irrelevant because you acknowledge we would have it even if he did cure everyone or stop them getting sick in the first place
    3. He arbitrarily chooses to cure the occasional person with no discernible pattern and never in a way that is clearly physically impossible such as re-growing an arm, he only cures people in ways where medical science may not be able to explain it but recovery was still possible, however unlikely. He does this despite the fact that death is meaningless to him
    4. While wanting people to be witness to him, he never makes it objectively and abundantly clear that it was specifically him that was involved (and he hopes that no ones sees the contradiction in the idea of a god to whom death is meaningless helping someone to avoid death), leading to a situation where followers of other faiths think that the god they were raised with cured them and they gain an ever stronger faith in this false god (or begin to believe in this false god), thereby dooming themselves to hell.
    Makes perfect sense :confused:

    You should read Pope benedicts Jesus of Nazereth chapter 2, this will help you with the above. God came and allowed himself to die a horrible death at the hands of his own, and Pope Benedict takes you through this argument.

    people know its Christ because if a priest is praying over a man with cancer and the man is cured through the CHRISTIAN prayers of the priest then the miracle is attributed to Christ. but you need FAITHHHHH to beleive in that one FAITHHHHHHHHHH:D


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    #81
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    I did quote your full reply and asked a question about the last part which you didn't answer. I asked you what these other things were. I know that people being cured is not your sole reason for believing but you did infer that if science cannot find an explanation then saying god did it is logical, which it is not, as I explained.

    Such as......

    You didn't.

    You failed to quote a major part of my message number 69, in your direct reply number 70.


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    #82
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    hinault wrote: »
    You didn't.

    You failed to quote a major part of my message number 69, in your direct reply number 70.

    Your entire post is in my reply. I responded to each part separately.


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    #83
    Stephentlig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Stephentlig


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Any particular reason why I should allow this thread to stay open? We have been here before, no?

    probably not Fanny, I cant come up with any reason, my fingers are almost ready to fall off with all the typing too, so you'd be doing me a favour and preventing a trip to the A&E lol :pac:


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    #84
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Stephentlig wrote: »
    You should read Pope benedicts Jesus of Nazereth chapter 2, this will help you with the above. God came and allowed himself to die a horrible death at the hands of his own, and Pope Benedict takes you through this argument.

    Ah yes, god came to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from the punishment that he was going to give us for being the only way it was possible for us to be, the way he made us. It makes little sense to me. If he wanted to forgive us he could have just forgiven us (or not made us in such a displeasing way to begin with). And I see nothing particularly virtuous in believing one old story of supernatural tales over another in any case.
    Stephentlig wrote: »
    people know its Christ because if a priest is praying over a man with cancer and the man is cured through the CHRISTIAN prayers of the priest then the miracle is attributed to Christ. but you need FAITHHHHH to beleive in that one FAITHHHHHHHHHH:D

    What about all the people who prayed to other gods and ended up being cured? Does that prove the existence of those other gods?

    And what about all the miracles that are said to have happened that weren't prayed for?

    And if god really really wants me to believe then why is it that I know for a fact that if I pray to be able to sprout wings and fly, that prayer is not going to be answered?


    edit: when you say that you have to have FAAAAAIIIITTTTHHHHH, all I'm hearing is that you have to ignore the fact that when someone is cured there is no more reason to believe it was Yahweh than to believe it was Vishnu, Allah, the great Ju Ju under the sea or simple chance.


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    #85
    Stephentlig
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,114 ✭✭✭Stephentlig


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Ah yes, god came to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from the punishment that he was going to give us for being the only way it was possible for us to be, the way he made us. It makes little sense to me. If he wanted to forgive us he could have just forgiven us (or not made us in such a displeasing way to begin with). And I see nothing particularly virtuous in believing one old story of supernatural tales over another in any case.



    What about all the people who prayed to other gods and ended up being cured? Does that prove the existence of those other gods?

    And what about all the miracles that are said to have happened that weren't prayed for?

    And if god really really wants me to believe then why is it that I know for a fact that if I pray to be able to sprout wings and fly, that prayer is not going to be answered?

    I've just made a big reply to this but due to my poor connection my computer knocked off and I lost it.

    I'm wrecked tired, so will probably make an effort to retype in the near future.

    Pax Christi
    Stephen <3


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    #86
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Ah yes, god came to earth to sacrifice himself to himself to save us from the punishment that he was going to give us for being the only way it was possible for us to be, the way he made us. It makes little sense to me. If he wanted to forgive us he could have just forgiven us. And I see nothing particularly virtuous in believing one old story of supernatural tales over another in any case.

    God sent His Son, to re-establish the covenant between God and Man.

    It is the Christian teaching that Man has the freedom to decide whether to partake in this convenant or not.

    It is Man who makes the decision to accept/reject God.

    According to Christain teaching, God wants to be in covenant with Man.
    But it is Man to decide if he wants to be in covenant with God.





    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    What about all the people who prayed to other gods and ended up being cured? Does that prove the existence of those other gods?

    Who prayed to other Gods and got cured?




    Sam Vimes wrote: »

    And what about all the miracles that are said to have happened that weren't prayed for?

    Examples?

    Sam Vimes wrote: »

    And if god really really wants me to believe then why is it that I know for a fact that if I pray to be able to sprout wings and fly, that prayer is not going to be answered?

    It is your decision as to whether or not you choose to believe.


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    #87
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    A lot of heat, not much light.


This discussion has been closed.
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