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What convinved you that there was/wasn`t "something else"?
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07-03-2010 7:05pm#1
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Fortunately I fall under the "wasn't" something else category.
The reasons were numerous:
1: Who created the creator?
2: The vast amount of different gods that are worshipped on this planet, they are millions.
3: The idea of heaven is not compatible with evolution, for instance at what stage did god decide that we as a bipedal humanoid species had evolved far enough to enter heaven, I mean was there an exact cut off point
4: As for the Christian Judea god, the Bible is totally unreliable, it was written decades after Jesus was on Earth, so it is merely hear say. Also, why would god send his son to an illiterate society?
5: How can you believe in something that you cannot see touch or smell?0 -
munsterdevil wrote: »Fortunately I fall under the "wasn't" something else category.
The reasons were numerous:
1: Who created the creator?
2: The vast amount of different gods that are worshipped on this planet, they are millions.
3: The idea of heaven is not compatible with evolution, for instance at what stage did god decide that we as a bipedal humanoid species had evolved far enough to enter heaven, I mean was there an exact cut off point
4: As for the Christian Judea god, the Bible is totally unreliable, it was written decades after Jesus was on Earth, so it is merely hear say. Also, why would god send his son to an illiterate society?
5: How can you believe in something that you cannot see touch or smell?[/QUOTE]
not compatible??
explain......or just not compatible for you...
how do you know????
do you believe that the only things we can experience are through sight and touch????
do you feel, smell; fear-love-hate???
can you touch-see it ??0 -
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munsterdevil wrote: »True, and especially the argument part;)
I'm not trying to antagonize you Dermot but I see a problem with this analogy. You see a person knows they can in a physical sense witness a banana. In other words they can see one, and they know they can touch one. The same cannot be said for a god.
Sorry everybody for a long winded post but the fingers were tapping like mad!!!
And I'm not trying to convince you of anything either :cool: All again down to the banana. Without tasting it they dont know what it is only my description of it, mushy, nice after taste so hard to describe right? Now by them looking at it, do they know what it tastes like? They can only have an opinion or an idea of what it tastes like. Then their expectation of what it tastes like is ruined by my explaining to them what it was like. I thought it was beautiful they thought it was funny tasting :pac:
So the age old saying experience teaches wisdom. Where things went wrong generally is when those who had experience told others about it, they went on and told another who after a couple of years wrote it down, thus forming religious ideology. But the person at the start who had the experience is caught in the banana theory thus leading to others forming opinions on what it is.
Another example is water that springs from the source, someone drinks it and wow, so nice so refreshing, it flows down the mountain reaching the first village everyone drinks from the spring, washes their clothes in it and uses as a swimming hole and sewerage works, finally going through bigger towns and cities til the purer water from the top is so diluted it dont taste any good anymore. So your guess is which water is religion, from the source or from the last city before the ocean?
As for seeing a God-like figure etc, we live in the third dimension, the commonly held belief is they dont live in this realm, As for the Creator/Source Im not sure many people believe in a huge being in the sky is the Ultimate Source of everything all energy, all creation etc, as in the simpsons when Homer meets God. Yes people have PHYSICALLY seen Angel, mighty being etc and its formed religions all over the world from the Amazon to the forests in Indonesia, all cultures, all myths and legends etc, some of our own here in Ireland, some seeming profound others seeming unrealistic, some even seeming misguided. Maybe this is a reason why people generally dont contact with them or see them as they probably afraid a new religion could spring up because they popped in to the physical plane for a blink of an eye
:D:D:D
Though where it gets funny is when people worship deities because they see them as more advanced than them etc.
Personally for me praying to the Source of Love from my own Heart and Feeling is the only way as automatically the Heart gets responses and the bliss and joy felt is beyond human comprehension.
Though to go back to the banana theory what good is it for me to say this to you? NONE. It serves no purpose. What good would it be for me to guide you how to use your Heart properly so you can re-establish this connection?
You see in no way am I trying to convince you to believe what I say etc, as its the wrong way, its just the same as the guy standing out in any city centre in the world telling people their all sinners and are gonna go to a very hot place when they die.
Truthfully though there is a part in a lot of skeptics etc who are waiting for something like this to help them see something so then they can be convinced in something else is out there. And until then, no amount of someone trying to convince them will actually help them, it will only serve the purpose generally of strengthening their own convictions.
But a lot of people are searching and unfortunately search in the wrong place, the brain, the centre of ego etc. Reading all new age books listening to other people's stories trying to form a truth so they can turn to another and pretend that they are more spiritually aware or advanced.
In some cases this can lead to arrogance etc, which in turn may not be good for them spiritually. In no way am I saying reading books is wrong but what is being said is they can usually learn more spiritually from going out and chatting to a homeless person and sitting down and having a cup of tea with them, than having all the knowledge about spiritual matters etc.0 -
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munsterdevil wrote: »But how do we know that the original person was not mad, a liar, delusional, or all three? You see we know a banana and a water source is real, we can see them and taste them, we do not know how genuine these eye witness and hear say reports are, which is a major cornerstone of how many reject religion.
That would be an ecumenical matter!!! On a more easier note, millions of people see ghosts/spirits etc, similar, there is more out there.
You see that is what I find a total cop out in theology, “gods exist outside of our dimension, thus the laws of physics that apply to us does not apply to god”, it is rather.............. well, convenient.
Have you ever seen down the rabbit hole? Its about quantum physics, too heavy for me but they in a laymans way try to explain the existence of a source, Now these are the most scientific heads out there and they generally believe in a Divine order etc. That aside this thread is turning in to a match about the existence of something beyond human comprehension which admittedly a lot of people have problems with.
I’m not trying to be offensive, and this is just my opinion, but anyone that claims they can “physically” see angels has serious mental problems. I’m not saying you can see them as I think you’re level headed enough for that.
Personally its not a good idea for me to judge another persons experience with the spiritual, we could go down the lines of was it an extra terrestrial sighting they saw and so on so forth, doesnt matter really, what matters is what became of it and why this happened this is where the story becomes more tangible, To hear that someone saw Angel and automatically think they are delusional is not something for me to get involved in.
I found myself a long time ago, when I left religion behind, and trust me when I did, it was a tremendous release. I’m thinking we were both at the same point in the spectrum at one time, and both of us chose to move to opposite ends, and as you say, both believe we are right!
Religion is here and it CAN serve a greater purpose but in reality its people/Humans who tend to mess with it that the problems arise, all the countless wars and insane acts created by MEN/WOMEN
because of their beliefs.
I wouldn’t call that learning more about spirituality, I would call that getting in touch with one’s humanity.
When done with Love and understanding there is more to be gained spiritually for people. As in getting in touch with one's humanity, that is a spiritual exercise that has lasted down through the ages.
Either way while Im not trying to convince you of anything, as all this turns in to is a debate about the existence of something not in the physical. If by all means you would like to experience something try something that is level and not too airy fairy. Though my suggestion would be a weekend workshop which would include some deep meditation, give it a shot who knows, you may experience something either way you will probably find yourself more relaxed after a weekend of meditation than say drinking.
My answers are in the quote, sorry I havent figured out the whole multi-quote thing as of yet.0 -
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munsterdevil wrote: »Fortunately I fall under the "wasn't" something else category.
The reasons were numerous:
1: Who created the creator?
2: The vast amount of different gods that are worshipped on this planet, they are millions.
3: The idea of heaven is not compatible with evolution, for instance at what stage did god decide that we as a bipedal humanoid species had evolved far enough to enter heaven, I mean was there an exact cut off point
4: As for the Christian Judea god, the Bible is totally unreliable, it was written decades after Jesus was on Earth, so it is merely hear say. Also, why would god send his son to an illiterate society?
5: How can you believe in something that you cannot see touch or smell?
If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.
Bertrand Russell, Paths to Freedom
I thought I might respond to some of those questions.
1: Who created the creator?
This question is tied into the inevitable paradox that arises from the fact that eternal and infinite realities co-exist with temporal and finite realities. I doubt that this question can be fully resolved until we stand in the presence of Deity.
2: The vast amount of different gods that are worshipped on this planet, they are millions.
Similarly with the vast amount of names for the sun or water, it does not follow that there exists millions of suns. Individual cultural and personal approaches do not, in and of themselves, create individual gods, just the individual's experience of God.
3: The idea of heaven is not compatible with evolution, for instance at what stage did god decide that we as a bipedal humanoid species had evolved far enough to enter heaven, I mean was there an exact cut off point
I recognise your confusion. Could you not see evolution as a divine technique for maximising potential? Your concept of 'heaven' is partially responsible for your confusion. The kingdom concept put forth by Jesus was the inner spiritual experience/realisation of the fatherhood of God with the corollary truth of the brotherhood of man. The higher worlds may indeed be idyllic but they are still populated by imperfect though perfection motivated beings. The idea of 'war in heaven' shows that free will and imperfection are still realities that must be contended with as we journey into eternity on our path toward the encounter with eternal deity. Milton once famously said that: Mind is a thing unto itself and of itself can make a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven. Thus we see that 'heaven' isn't so much a place as the attitude born out of a sublime faith in a loving God. Heaven is experienced right here, right now, not on some other world or plane of being. If you are waiting for the next life to enter the kingdom, then you'll have missed it in this one. From this you might be able to see how your confusion might arise and how there isn't much argument between heaven and evolution.
4: As for the Christian Judea god, the Bible is totally unreliable, it was written decades after Jesus was on Earth, so it is merely hear say. Also, why would god send his son to an illiterate society?
These statements are a similar mix of error and confusion. 1. It is possible to believe truths you don't understand. For example; one can tell a child that men went to the moon in a great, big ship. That's not false, but it is appropriate to their level of understanding. In time, as they grow, they can be taught exactly how such things are possible. Similar is true of God: God is our father. How this is possible is not easily explained, but time {eternity might be sufficient}, reason and faith will yield the ultimate insight 2. That society was not illiterate, they did have reading and writing, after all. I'll admit that literacy may not have been widespread but not having 'letters' is not the same as being dull. Many of our great visionaries were 'unlettered'. The truths of God can be appropriated by an innocent child easier than they can be by an adult whose imaginative faculties have been dulled by an over sophisticated education system. Even during Jesus' ministry he made a note of how his words were gladly received by the 'simple' but their truths remained hidden from the wise.
It may be hearsay but a sincere searcher for truth, someone truly desirous of knowing God, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, will be supported in their endeavour by the work of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, even the angels, for they are charged with the task of leading you into 'all truth'. Our starting point is the same, confusion and ignorance similarly our end point is in clarity and wisdom. However, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, similar is true of mere mortals, we can be led to truth but will often refuse to sup it – often because it is poisonous to our fondly held illusions, with which we so heavily identify ourselves. As for the last question, because HE LOVES THEM.
5: How can you believe in something that you cannot see touch or smell?
Okay... can you see, touch or smell numbers? Numbers are super-physical realities, non-material actors, they are mechanisms that allow us to peer beyond the limits of the senses. Our physical sense reveal only so much reality but where the senses stop mind pushes further on, into the strange and charmed domains of quantum realities with its own unique flora and fauna of photons, quarks, muon's and gluons. Though we cannot perceive such things with the senses, we can reached them through mind. They exist, have a function and a purpose, oblivious of our ignorance. Consequently, where limits of mind are reached {for mind has its limits just as surely as do the senses} the domains of the spirit press on, exposing to us the realities of truth, beauty, and goodness, which are not accessible by any other mechanisms.0 -
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Define this "Deity"1: Who created the creator?
This question is tied into the inevitable paradox that arises from the fact that eternal and infinite realities co-exist with temporal and finite realities. I doubt that this question can be fully resolved until we stand in the presence of Deity.
But it is a very arrogant thing to assume that one's god that they worship is the correct way to follow, and the Yahweh god and the millions of Hindu gods are radically different, thus it is not all down to "individual experience"2: The vast amount of different gods that are worshipped on this planet, they are millions.
Similarly with the vast amount of names for the sun or water, it does not follow that there exists millions of suns. Individual cultural and personal approaches do not, in and of themselves, create individual gods, just the individual's experience of God.
I'm not confused in the way you are defining it, I am confused as to why people believe evolution and religion to be compatible, such as followers of the Roman Catholic Church for example, and I fail to see the connection, despite your explanation, of the connection between heaven and evolution. If evolution was a way of maximizing potential, then it has miserably failed. We as homo sapiens sapiens are far from a perfect design. Why allow the dinosaurs to exist and then get them killed off, the list is endless against that argument.3: The idea of heaven is not compatible with evolution, for instance at what stage did god decide that we as a bipedal humanoid species had evolved far enough to enter heaven, I mean was there an exact cut off point
I recognise your confusion. Could you not see evolution as a divine technique for maximising potential? Your concept of 'heaven' is partially responsible for your confusion. The kingdom concept put forth by Jesus was the inner spiritual experience/realisation of the fatherhood of God with the corollary truth of the brotherhood of man. The higher worlds may indeed be idyllic but they are still populated by imperfect though perfection motivated beings. The idea of 'war in heaven' shows that free will and imperfection are still realities that must be contended with as we journey into eternity on our path toward the encounter with eternal deity. Milton once famously said that: Mind is a thing unto itself and of itself can make a heaven of hell or a hell of heaven. Thus we see that 'heaven' isn't so much a place as the attitude born out of a sublime faith in a loving God. Heaven is experienced right here, right now, not on some other world or plane of being. If you are waiting for the next life to enter the kingdom, then you'll have missed it in this one. From this you might be able to see how your confusion might arise and how there isn't much argument between heaven and evolution.
It's been over 2,000 years now and it still sounds as outlandish as ever.4: As for the Christian Judea god, the Bible is totally unreliable, it was written decades after Jesus was on Earth, so it is merely hear say. Also, why would god send his son to an illiterate society?
These statements are a similar mix of error and confusion. 1. It is possible to believe truths you don't understand. For example; one can tell a child that men went to the moon in a great, big ship. That's not false, but it is appropriate to their level of understanding. In time, as they grow, they can be taught exactly how such things are possible. Similar is true of God: God is our father. How this is possible is not easily explained, but time {eternity might be sufficient}, reason and faith will yield the ultimate insight
I think you are actually supporting my argument there, In my opinion those with a sophisticated education will not be gullible enough to believe in the outlandish stories of the Bible. I will rephrase the last part of your sentence "Even during Jesus' ministry he made a note of how his words were gladly believed received by the simple (uneducated, gullible and who wanted to believe in something) but their truths remained hidden from the wise (educated, skeptical and logical).The truths of God can be appropriated by an innocent child easier than they can be by an adult whose imaginative faculties have been dulled by an over sophisticated education system. Even during Jesus' ministry he made a note of how his words were gladly received by the 'simple' but their truths remained hidden from the wise.
Sorry but I don't buy that, relying on works that are thousands of years old that try to convince us of a benevolent god that watches our every move is not the way to "all truth".It may be hearsay but a sincere searcher for truth, someone truly desirous of knowing God, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, will be supported in their endeavour by the work of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, even the angels, for they are charged with the task of leading you into 'all truth'. Our starting point is the same, confusion and ignorance similarly our end point is in clarity and wisdom. However, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink, similar is true of mere mortals, we can be led to truth but will often refuse to sup it – often because it is poisonous to our fondly held illusions, with which we so heavily identify ourselves.
So he didn't love any other illiterate society all over the world?As for the last question, because HE LOVES THEM.
Numbers do not claim to have sent their only son to Earth to save us from all our sins, and enduring a horrific death in the process5: How can you believe in something that you cannot see touch or smell?
Okay... can you see, touch or smell numbers? Numbers are super-physical realities, non-material actors, they are mechanisms that allow us to peer beyond the limits of the senses. Our physical sense reveal only so much reality but where the senses stop mind pushes further on, into the strange and charmed domains of quantum realities with its own unique flora and fauna of photons, quarks, muon's and gluons. Though we cannot perceive such things with the senses, we can reached them through mind. They exist, have a function and a purpose, oblivious of our ignorance. Consequently, where limits of mind are reached {for mind has its limits just as surely as do the senses} the domains of the spirit press on, exposing to us the realities of truth, beauty, and goodness, which are not accessible by any other mechanisms.
Numbers do not claim to be watching us all the time, and if we do bad things we will go to hell.
We do not worship numbers or wage wars in their name (at least not officially).
Numbers are not going to appear at the end of the Earth and judge the living
Bit of a difference...0 -
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Sorry, but I'm not going to believe in a 2,000 year old outlandish story that a man rose from the dead, moreover the story was written decades after the event allegedly occurred. Miracle? No, superstition.eh.....the resurrection??
She clearly does not want someone to attack her beliefs, let it goc'mon.......who asks for comments on their posts??
i'm asking for your opinion...do you think its bullsh1t?
It really is clutching at straws if one uses the stigmata as evidence for god. Take a look at this link of Padre Pio where even a Pope believed him to be a fraud, and far more likely explanation of his wounds is given.obviously......never ever heard ofanyone faking stigmata.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2739751.ece
So now you have heard of someone faking the stigmata.;)
That's actually worse than the stigmata example, how accurate was she on the jacket, did she give the make of it, how long it was, how many buttons on it? I'm guessing she got the colour right and they jumped to conclusions.good friend of mine,his granny's dead.
on the anniversary of her death,
his sister was very very upset--bawlin her eyes out.
his niece{sisters daughter} reassured her,"don't worry-was talkin to Nana last night..."
{In her dream obviously.}
so to humour her she asked "what did she say,what was she wearing .."etc
"she said not to worry...."
"She was wearing her favourite coat with the big round buttons on it .
here's the rub:
the littlegirl never saw this jacket before,
no photo of it exists....
its the jacket that the granny used to wear when my mates Sister
was a little girl......30 years ago....
spooky.
i could go on.....
It's not spooky, it's ridiculous :rolleyes:
Those were medical miracles you posted i.e. the website is not putting it down to some supernatural force, they are putting it down to medical brillianceheres 10 of em......http://current.com/1l6na4c By the way, if you talked to a doctor they would probably call it something like "medical ingenuity" not "medical miracles" 0 -
munsterdevil wrote: »Sorry, but I'm not going to believe in a 2,000 year old outlandish story that a man rose from the dead, moreover the story was written decades after the event allegedly occurred. Miracle? No, superstition.
She clearly does not want someone to attack her beliefs, let it go
It really is clutching at straws if one uses the stigmata as evidence for god. Take a look at this link of Padre Pio where even a Pope believed him to be a fraud, and far more likely explanation of his wounds is given.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article2739751.ece
So now you have heard of someone faking the stigmata.;)
That's actually worse than the stigmata example, how accurate was she on the jacket, did she give the make of it, how long it was, how many buttons on it? I'm guessing she got the colour right and they jumped to conclusions.
It's not spooky, it's ridiculous :rolleyes:
Those were medical miracles you posted i.e. the website is not putting it down to some supernatural force, they are putting it down to medical brilliance By the way, if you talked to a doctor they would probably call it something like "medical ingenuity" not "medical miracles"
"For those that believe in God, no explanation is necessary, for those that do not believe in God, no explanation is possible."0 -
Becoming a policeman
Throwing in my 2 cents here, What I've always liked about the spirituality forum is that we don't get the arguments that happen in the christianity forum. What generally happens there is continous arguments about who is right and who is wrong, leading in to sometimes aggressive posts and slanders from christians and atheists and even different factions of christianity.
My suggestion here is to keep the OP's request that it becomes a place where people can give there reaons why they are CONVINCED either way. This then becomes a place where people can share their experiences. Trying to convince another is pointless as you can see from our posts if we try we fail. This counts either side of the was/wasn't debate.
So how about we all just surrender and let go our stuff so others who would like to share won't feel discouraged? What say you all? Or there could be a place where a new topic could form around an argumentative level? Say in the christianity forum, where they are used to it. Just kidding but seriously lads, do we all want this to degenerate further? 0 -
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