Eircom wont oversell me their broadband

teddy b123

Don't know if anybody here has ever had this problem but eircom have point blank refused to put me on their 8Mb business package (its the cheapest truly unlimited package eircom offer)
My line can only support 2.5Mb and every time i ring eircom they say that their "system" will not allow this move to 8Mb

the reason i want the 8Mb business broadband is because last month i used over 560% of my usage limit and so far this month ive already gone over it


whats yere opinion on this?

MagicMarker

Why not find another provider with a higher cap?

teddy b123

cause im tied into a contract with eircom

i had to pull a fair few favors just to get a broadband suitable line

MagicMarker

How long have you been with Eircom and how long are you into your contract?

teddy b123

about 9 months and 9 months too

moved from bt to eircom cause eircom said they could get us broadband when bt couldnt

Joseph

Same with me eircom point blank refuse to let me even TRIAL a higher speed, bloody irritating

teddy b123

i dont even expect the higher speed, i just want the unlimited usage and ive told them that

guess they only oversell to people who dont want it

smellslikeshoes

pssst! Eircom have never charged or cut anyone off for going over the limit so all their packages are in essense already unlimited. :pac:

teddy b123

i know that and ive been using my 200 to 600% every month for the past 9 months(with a small fear of a ~€500 bill one day) but now theyve been changing their T&C around im getting a bit worried.

dub45

They are doing you a favour by not upgrading you. The higher speeds will put more pressure on your line and you will get constant disconnects.

Cabaal

If the systems don't allow the upgrade thats fair enough to be honest, its good that they have some sort of system in place that will stop accounts been upgraded to higher speed packages when the lines can't take it.

You don't have a leg to stand on here in relation to this.

mrblues

If your line can take more than they're currently providing don't do anything. I had 18 months of hell with BT and UTV because they didn't follow this line. Connection cycled to connect every 90 seconds. Eventually went to UPC and now have 30mbps unlimited when my eircom line can still only deliver 3mbps.

P. Breathnach

teddy b123 wrote: »

... moved from bt to eircom cause eircom said they could get us broadband when bt couldnt

That's interesting. It might indicate that Eircom were not being fair with their competitors.

teddy b123

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's interesting. It might indicate that Eircom were not being fair with their competitors.

well bt didn't seem too bothered about getting me broadband so i was happy to move to eircom who said they would be able to get it for me


Just out of curiosity, anybody else here with a high excess usage worried about eircoms change to their TOS?

P1erce

I havn't seen the TOS but I have known that they always have that clause in it just encase one day it makes sense to enforce it.

I have to say I do miss being with BT/Vodafone in the respect that they never really bothered with caps. With digiweb now im watching it and 70GB is not that much. But at least they do offer unlimited packages which my line can handle!

Pierce

dub45

teddy b123 wrote: »

well bt didn't seem too bothered about getting me broadband so i was happy to move to eircom who said they would be able to get it for me


Just out of curiosity, anybody else here with a high excess usage worried about eircoms change to their TOS?

What exactly are you basing this on?

Cabaal

dub45 they won't be happy till Eircom charge them at this stage :rolleyes:

Board Senseless

dub45 wrote: »

What exactly are you basing this on?

Eircom amended their terms to change the charge for excess usage to €2 a GB from around €10. The change will be introduced later this month. It may, or very well may not, mean they will then begin applying it.

P1erce

Kahnyl wrote: »

Eircom amended their terms to change the charge for excess usage to €2 a GB from around €10. The change will be introduced later this month. It may, or very well may not, mean they will then begin applying it.

Thats pretty reasonable... not..

Down from €3160/mbit over quota..

To: €632/mbit over quota...

(I mean per megabit over an entire month (or: 316GB) which is how data centers do it and subsequently how eircom pay for it)

----
Math: 1GB/30days = 414.252247 bytes per second
(1 megabit) / (414.252247 bytes) = 316.40625

316*10 = 3160
316*2 = 632
----

Pierce

lucernarian

I don't get this, why would eircom not essentially use a similar system use as is used in the UK by BT to provide the highest stable speed possible on the line? Or even their more crude but basically effective system which they use for 7.6 mbps products?? If the line's not good enough, offer 4, 5, 6, or 7 mbps max on the line. They really should let the customer know if this happens as opposed to saying nothing until the customer has to check the line stats.


Anyway, there should be no reason why eircom will sell the up to 7.6 mbps product to the large majority of lines and not sell the 8 mbps product to anyone except those lines estimated to handle it. Constant disconnects wouldn't happen if they even used their existing system, never mind the more thorough approach taken by BT in the UK...

Cabaal

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I don't get this, why would eircom not essentially use a similar system use as is used in the UK by BT to provide the highest stable speed possible on the line?

BT Retail in the UK use a BT Wholesale product which breaks down as follows:
512K Fixed
1MB Fixed
2MB Fixed
ADSL Max provides anywhere from 512K to 8MB depending on line quality
They also offer ADSL2+ but its not as available

Or even their more crude but basically effective system which they use for 7.6 mbps products?? If the line's not good enough, offer 4, 5, 6, or 7 mbps max on the line. They really should let the customer know if this happens as opposed to saying nothing until the customer has to check the line stats.

I'd imagine Eircom don't want to say sell upto 7MB that ends up as 2MB because ultimately it'll piss of customers if this is the speed they end up with.

If you take the UK as an example the vast majority of ISP's sell their products as upto 8MB but if the customer gets 512K they get pissed off, the same would happen to eircom if they did that to.

lucernarian

I'm not sure where you got the product info for BT broadband, as their website is markedly different. They offer all customers a speed of up to 20 mbps per second when you order now. See http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do?categoryId=CON-TOTAL-BB-R1

The FAQs also imply that nearly every half-decent exchange has ADSL2+ rolled out to it by now.

The issue of dissatisfied customers is easily addressed by not advertising the product or offering it to anyone who has an inferior line, but should anyone come to eircom explicitly looking for the product that they are told they will receive less than the stated speed. They are quite good at selling "up to" 7.6 mbps to a wide variety of customers already, so I don't think realistic speeds of 4 or 5 mbps would really deter them in this case either.

novarock

I reckon that it is because eircom legally cant sell you a product that they cant provide you. Its the opposite side of the stick from "I cant get my full 8 meg". The only way you will get it is to sign off on support basically, which they wont do. Unfortunately it is the case that a majority of the country's copper needs to be overhauled, but there is no money there to do it...

Cabaal

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I'm not sure where you got the product info for BT broadband

I'm referring to BT Wholesale products which the vast majority of ISP's in the UK incl BT Retail re-sell.

They offer all customers a speed of up to 20 mbps per second when you order now. See http://www.productsandservices.bt.com/consumerProducts/displayCategory.do?categoryId=CON-TOTAL-BB-R1

Upto 20MB is not available on every exchange...infact it still pretty much in a minority outside of the bigger citys and towns this is very common knowledge for anyone dealing with ADSL in the UK.

The BT Retail website will still allow you to order an 20MB package even if your line can only support say 1.5MB

Small print is fun

"BT always give you the best speed possible on your line. The speed prediction we have given here is an estimate. The actual speed is dependent on several factors such as whether you have internal wiring, our network management policy and the number of people using the internet at the same time. Speeds can be lower in the evening at peak times. Please note that availability for BT Infinity is an estimate only when entering your postcode and house number.

"

The FAQs also imply that nearly every half-decent exchange has ADSL2+ rolled out to it by now.

Yeah its nice to imply, but doesn't always make it the case

The issue of dissatisfied customers is easily addressed by not advertising the product or offering it to anyone who has an inferior line,

Yet thats what they do in the UK and it often leads to complaints

This is why ISP's in the UK just offer upto 8MB, 15MB or 20MB etc yet line speeds can be as low as 512K on a 20MB package.

but should anyone come to eircom explicitly looking for the product that they are told they will receive less than the stated speed.

I get where your coming from, however its not worth Eircom's time or money changing its ordering system just because a handful of users actually understand their line quality....most users don't understand such technical limitations

teddy b123

Just had a nice little chat with another eircom sales rep, here's what
I've learnt from it:
1. I can't get the up to 7.6mb broadband because the box for that
option is grayed out (he'd add it if he could)
2. He has heard nothing about the impending €2 per GB price change
3. He does not know the difference between megabit and megabyte and
keeps refering to the packages as x megabytes a second
4. He claims that the excess usage is now, and has been for the past 4
& 1/2 years 4c per megabyte

Just thought I'd let you guys know that

Aside from that I have a few questions,
why am I repeatedly being told that if I try to go on a package higher
up than my line can support I will get constant disconnects, I'm on
the 3mbit package now, my line can support slightly over 2mbit and my
modem is synching with the exchange at 1600kbps at the moment most
other times I get 2xxx kbps sync speed. It hasn't disconected once
while I was using it and has never attempted to synch at the full
3mbit because it knows my line won't support it

Also. Does any broadband sales rep in eircom know the right excess
usage charge is? I have rang them on many occasions and always get
different answers and rarely get told the right one (1c per mb)

lucernarian

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm referring to BT Wholesale products which the vast majority of ISP's in the UK incl BT Retail re-sell.



Upto 20MB is not available on every exchange...infact it still pretty much in a minority outside of the bigger citys and towns this is very common knowledge for anyone dealing with ADSL in the UK.

The BT Retail website will still allow you to order an 20MB package even if your line can only support say 1.5MB

Small print is fun
"




Yeah its nice to imply, but doesn't always make it the case



Yet thats what they do in the UK and it often leads to complaints

This is why ISP's in the UK just offer upto 8MB, 15MB or 20MB etc yet line speeds can be as low as 512K on a 20MB package.



I get where your coming from, however its not worth Eircom's time or money changing its ordering system just because a handful of users actually understand their line quality....most users don't understand such technical limitations

I'm not sure why you're addressing every part of my post out of context, my substansive point is small and straightforward. If customers are not offered it full stop unless they insist on it, then they would walk into signing up to it with eyes open. I'm not asking for the business product to be offered to the general market, I'm simply making the point that customers who are fully informed of the risks should be able to spend their money on a DSL product, limitations and all.

I believe it's wrong to say that what happens in the UK is the same as what I proposed. They are clearly offering an "up to" service to all customers, while I'm saying that it should only be given to customers who explicitly ask for it after being told that the speed element of it will be sub-par. Eircom's systems already tell the call operators what the expected speed is based on attenuation readings, so it would be clear to anyone that there is a likelihood of it not working at full speed from the very outset.

There's no real change to eircom's ordering systems if they simply provide it on the same basis as the home 7.6 mbps service, except that they do not offer it to consumers who won't get full speeds without an explicit request over the phone. Like what happens for customers who explicitly request for a change in their line's interleaving. I've never heard of anyone complaining from such a request in the past, the users generally know what they're getting into when they go looking for something specific like that.

Besides, I really didn't mind about just how widespread BT's ADSL2+ is. You claimed BT's max wholesale product was 8 mbps, which is not the case from what I sourced to. I can only assume that if BT retail offer that, Ofcom would ensure that wholesalers have access to the same speeds and availability? Even if not all wholesalers were to provide up to 20 mbps, the point is that BT wholesale themselves do provide it?

lucernarian

@teddy b123

The issue with lines running at max speed is that there is a higher *risk* of disconnects happening, but each line is different and some may still avoid it. So what Dub45 said is correct from what I know, but some lines are affected more than others and it depends on how the ISP "fine-tunes" their DSL.

Some lines have more variable amounts of noise than others. If the line is set to work as fast as it can up to a limit of background noise, then it will work until that limit is broken and the line will have to reconnect. Eircom set the limit fairly low (6dB signal margin) so if the amount of noise increases by 6dB, even for a few milliseconds, generally it's game over for the connection and the line has to reconnect with the 6dB limit in mind.

Probably in your case, the noise level is stable so the modem doesn't have to suffer from disconnects. So a package change is not going to change that fact, but eircom see you as getting a speed lower than even the middle-class package so they are effectively deciding for you and saving your money from being wasted on a higher speed package. They haven't catered for customers who want a higher download limit, but that's probably because they don't charge people for going over the limit anyway.

Cabaal

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Besides, I really didn't mind about just how widespread BT's ADSL2+ is. You claimed BT's max wholesale product was 8 mbps, which is not the case from what I sourced to. I can only assume that if BT retail offer that, Ofcom would ensure that wholesalers have access to the same speeds and availability? Even if not all wholesalers were to provide up to 20 mbps, the point is that BT wholesale themselves do provide it?

BT Wholesale's ADSL Max and ADSL2+ products are separate wholesale products, ADSL Max is only upto 8MB.

BT Wholesale provide both; however ADSL2+ is not yet on every exchange where as ADSL Max is.

teddy b123

@To_Be_Confirmed
Thanks for making that clear to me i understand now that my line is a bad line, but its "stable" so thats why i suffer very few reconnects

lucernarian

Cabaal wrote: »

BT Wholesale's ADSL Max and ADSL2+ products are separate wholesale products, ADSL Max is only upto 8MB.

BT Wholesale provide both; however ADSL2+ is not yet on every exchange where as ADSL Max is.

I see in your earlier reply that you did highlight an ADSL2+ product, that's fair enough. So you didn't say that they only provided ADSL1:)

The public availability of the fixed products do seem to be fairly limited, BT retail don't seem too bothered to provide them either. In fact, I could only come across one example of a fixed 1 mbit product being offered on various websites. My "study" was pretty inconclusive though!

teddy b123

just had a look at it and it will probably work out cheaper for me being on the broadband time (if i cant get put on to the business 8 meg) as i have allready clocked up an extra €54 in excess usage in 8 days :eek::eek: (thats if they will charge)

oh and this made for an interesting read: http://www.eircom.ie/bveircom/pdf/Sn1_14.pdf
Never knew that they did unlimited uploads (shame i dont upload much, i dont p2p, just use sky anytime, download itunes hd movies and stream radio and youtube)

also anybody know what they mean by an eircom broadband Temporary Line (10)

HereticPrincess

It looks like you may only be able for 1mb.

The 8mb package, would constantly disconnect your line & would be more frustrating than having no broadband.

Are you outside Dublin?
Could be quite a distance from the nearest exchange, or just old lines.

teddy b123

yeah im outside dublin, and the shortest route the phone cable can take to the exchange is 6.5KM

lucernarian

HereticPrincess wrote: »

It looks like you may only be able for 1mb.

The 8mb package, would constantly disconnect your line & would be more frustrating than having no broadband.

Are you outside Dublin?
Could be quite a distance from the nearest exchange, or just old lines.

That's an interesting conclusion, the poster is able to sync up to 2 mbps and seems to manage 1.6 with stability... That wouldn't change on any higher speed package as the business package also uses the same RADSL.

Cabaal

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I see in your earlier reply that you did highlight an ADSL2+ product, that's fair enough. So you didn't say that they only provided ADSL1:)

The public availability of the fixed products do seem to be fairly limited, BT retail don't seem too bothered to provide them either. In fact, I could only come across one example of a fixed 1 mbit product being offered on various websites. My "study" was pretty inconclusive though!

Fixed
512K
1MB
&
2MB are available on every exchange in the UK...obviously line quality will limit you to what product you can actually avail of.

Its actually pretty common for ISP's in the UK to take end users of a Max profile if their line is very bad quality and instead stick them on a 512K profile as this will more then likely provide a more stable service when compared to Max (this normally only applys to so called "long lines" after a SSFP socket is fitted).

ISP's all tend to provision lines for ADSL Max or ADSL2+ due to it costing pretty much the same as provisioning a line for a fixed service compared to max and that max will in most situations provide a faster service.

teddy b123

Just had the most entertaining conversation with a lass in the complaints department of eircom

She says that shes also heard nothing of the €2 per GB change
She said to me: "my god you've used alot this month"
She also said: "Eircom only charge for excess usage for downloading songs, you can download 6000 Songs a month but if you go over that they charge 5 Cent per song" -Now thats one i haven't heard from eircom before :rolleyes:
She also kept saying im on the 3 MegaBYTE package and every time she said that i corrected her by saying, no, its megabit. She finally got the hint.
Again just thought id put this up

MagicMarker

teddy b123 wrote: »

Just had the most entertaining conversation with a lass in the complaints department of eircom

She says that shes also heard nothing of the €2 per GB change
She said to me: "my god you've used alot this month"
She also said: "Eircom only charge for excess usage for downloading songs, you can download 6000 Songs a month but if you go over that they charge 5 Cent per song" -Now thats one i haven't heard from eircom before :rolleyes:
She also kept saying im on the 3 MegaBYTE package and every time she said that i corrected her by saying, no, its megabit. She finally got the hint.
Again just thought id put this up

Don't you sound delightful.

teddy b123

Ok, it appears we're getting places with eircom :D:D
Dunno if this is a step forward or backwards but anyway, the eircom broadband Tech support lad said my line can support up to 3.7 megabit (1st person in eircon to say megabit too) he increased my speed profile to
Max Allowed Speed (kbps) 3072 384 SN Margin (dB) -2.00 13.00 Line Attenuation (dB) 54.50 31.00 CRC Errors 0 1

But it appears to have settled at
Downstream Upstream Max Allowed Speed (kbps) 3072 384 SN Margin (dB) 8.00 12.00 Line Attenuation (dB) 53.50 31.00 CRC Errors 0 1
Now to ring sales and see has this made things change at their end as im theoretically in the Up to 8 megabit range now

teddy b123

MagicMarker wrote: »

Don't you sound delightful.

I did it in the nicest way possible

dub45

teddy b123 wrote: »

Just had the most entertaining conversation with a lass in the complaints department of eircom

She says that shes also heard nothing of the €2 per GB change
She said to me: "my god you've used alot this month"
She also said: "Eircom only charge for excess usage for downloading songs, you can download 6000 Songs a month but if you go over that they charge 5 Cent per song" -Now thats one i haven't heard from eircom before :rolleyes:
She also kept saying im on the 3 MegaBYTE package and every time she said that i corrected her by saying, no, its megabit. She finally got the hint.
Again just thought id put this up

Why would anyone working in a complaints department need to know the difference between bits bytes etc? there are plenty of people who are regulars on boards (incl myself) who never quite come to terms with it.

You seem to know all the answers - on your own admission you have loads of stuff downloaded that you can either watch or listen to or whatever so why do you keep ringing them?:rolleyes:

teddy b123

Cause i really enjoy speaking to them :P

dub45

teddy b123 wrote: »

Cause i really enjoy speaking to them :P

I wonder if the feeling is mutual!:rolleyes:

teddy b123

Probably not

Vyse

Cabaal wrote: »

I'd imagine Eircom don't want to say sell upto 7MB that ends up as 2MB because ultimately it'll piss of customers if this is the speed they end up with.

They did this to me and yes it did piss me off. Left them immediatly, never to return.

lucernarian

It would certainly piss people off if they didn't bother to tell the customer that a speed of 7.6 mbps isn't likely based on their line length.

Eircom should stop playing with people's money and tell them what they're likely to expect when they do buy something. It's up to eircom as they provide the service and are the only ones in a position to know this information. Even ignoring contention, being allowed to sell a product that they know will rarely reach more than half the full speed without telling the customer during ordering, is bad form.

oppiuy

Suppose to be 1cent per mb once your limit has been exceed. This isnt enforced but its frowned apon if customers are told. We've been told Adsl-2 exchanges are going to be launched pretty soon and up to 8mb will be the basic package on those exchanges.. But ive been hearing this for a while..
150 exchanges have been launched that with up 24mb speeds- new modem needed but most lines cant take 24mb. Average is 17mb. 69.99 is the cheapest available for that one but havent had a feedback from customers on how reliable and fast is really is yet..

Sorry is this is disjointed, im in a hurry

lucernarian

The current eircom issue netopia 2247s can do ADSL2 sure? It's a pretty widespread modem.

Yawns

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

pssst! Eircom have never charged or cut anyone off for going over the limit so all their packages are in essense already unlimited. :pac:

Havn't read past page one but when I saw this I had to quote it. Eircom can charge and DO!

Just because you havn't been charged yet for breaking the cap, does not mean you will always get away with it. OH's mother was charged when the sons were up for a few weeks and on all the laptops, xboxes etc etc.

One was downloading and streaming youtube non stop apparently

M cebee

teddy b123 wrote: »

Just had a nice little chat with another eircom sales rep, here's what
I've learnt from it:
1. I can't get the up to 7.6mb broadband because the box for that
option is grayed out (he'd add it if he could)
2. He has heard nothing about the impending €2 per GB price change
3. He does not know the difference between megabit and megabyte and
keeps refering to the packages as x megabytes a second
4. He claims that the excess usage is now, and has been for the past 4
& 1/2 years 4c per megabyte

Just thought I'd let you guys know that

Aside from that I have a few questions,
why am I repeatedly being told that if I try to go on a package higher
up than my line can support I will get constant disconnects, I'm on
the 3mbit package now, my line can support slightly over 2mbit and my
modem is synching with the exchange at 1600kbps at the moment most
other times I get 2xxx kbps sync speed. It hasn't disconected once
while I was using it and has never attempted to synch at the full
3mbit because it knows my line won't support it

Also. Does any broadband sales rep in eircom know the right excess
usage charge is? I have rang them on many occasions and always get
different answers and rarely get told the right one (1c per mb)

even the eircom tech-support guys don't seem to know the difference between megabit and megabyte.

thisisadamh

Eircom should have GB add ons. So people can add on say 30 GB on to their package.