Bye Bye Aer Lingus

RasTa

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0305/breaking46.html

If they reject a pay deal organized by their unions then what next? Will the unions still support the strike when they sack 1100 workers?

ei.sdraob

ah yes ill get the popcorn ready

nothing like sitting back and watching unions tear apart a (previously) good company

to think of it these very same people are trying their best to tear apart the country

In law, treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of betrayal of one's sovereign or nation

what is the punishment for treason in Ireland? these unions (like FF) should be all tried for treason for bringing down good companies and dragging the country into a sewer

DrumSteve

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ah yes ill get the popcorn ready

nothing like sitting back and watching unions tear apart a (previously) good company

to think of it these very same people are trying their best to tear apart the country




what is the punishment for treason in Ireland? these unions (like FF) should be all tried for treason for bringing down good companies and dragging the country into a sewer

I think thats a bit harsh but i would generally agree with the sentiment. these are harsh times as the man said and we'll see shortly whether the unions will cut off thier nose to spite their face. I think they will.

hiorta

Wasn't the start of Aer Lingus problems when Ryanair began trading? The customers preferred the newcomer.

AlekSmart

Well it will certainly allow for a fairly rapid re-think of the Hangar 6 stitch-up !
Bring it on sez Micko :P

ardmacha

nothing like sitting back and watching unions tear apart a (previously) good company

I am not quite sure how you get this, as the unions negotiated this deal and recommended it. Surely it should be that the workers are reluctant to do the needful.

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

I am not quite sure how you get this, as the unions negotiated this deal and recommended it. Surely it should be that the workers are reluctant to do the needful.

the company is already running at a loss, they keep pushing it itll go bankrupt (unless they are hopping for a bailout at the taxpayers expense :eek:) and all these workers loose their jobs
now that be something now wouldn't it?

edit: in first sentence replace "company" with "Ireland" and "workers" with "public sector workers" and we could be talking about a larger kettle of fish that the unions are slow boiling away

zootroid

Always thought the government should have sold it to Willie Walsh when it had the chance, in my opinion states have no business running companies where the service can easily be provided by the private sector. It was the public outcry about the romantic notion of our national airline and all that entailed that prevented the government from doing so. And now years later it looks as though it's not going to survive beyond a few years. Good riddance I say, I don't understand why people get all sentimental about it, the fact is they provide an average service at an expensive price. Because of that I won't be the least bit bothered by their demise.

Andrew33

zootroid wrote: »

Always thought the government should have sold it to Willie Walsh when it had the chance, in my opinion states have no business running companies where the service can easily be provided by the private sector. It was the public outcry about the romantic notion of our national airline and all that entailed that prevented the government from doing so. And now years later it looks as though it's not going to survive beyond a few years. Good riddance I say, I don't understand why people get all sentimental about it, the fact is they provide an average service at an expensive price. Because of that I won't be the least bit bothered by their demise.

Good riddance?? let Aer Lingus collapse?? you'd be very bothered by their demise which would leave one major airline serving the island. Monopoly anyone??

Seth Brundle

Maybe Mick will get his hangar in the end

silverharp

Andrew33 wrote: »

Good riddance?? let Aer Lingus collapse?? you'd be very bothered by their demise which would leave one major airline serving the island. Monopoly anyone??

exaggerate much? the only monopoly is Dublin Airport itsself

Andrew33

Silverharp2 wrote: »

exaggerate much? the only monopoly is Dublin Airport itsself

Why do you say that?? back in the dark old days only two airlines flew between Eire and the Uk (AL & BA) and it cost more then to fly to london then it does now to fly half way around the world. Ok it was a duopoly but the same rules apply. Do you really want Ryanair as the only way of flying shorthaul from Eire? Why do you think the monopolies commision blocked MOL's attempt to buy Aer Lingus? Not good for business, not good for competition and NOT good for the consumer, ie YOU.

zootroid

Andrew33 wrote: »

Why do you say that?? back in the dark old days only two airlines flew between Eire and the Uk (AL & BA) and it cost more then to fly to london then it does now to fly half way around the world. Ok it was a duopoly but the same rules apply. Do you really want Ryanair as the only way of flying shorthaul from Eire? Why do you think the monopolies commision blocked MOL's attempt to buy Aer Lingus? Not good for business, not good for competition and NOT good for the consumer, ie YOU.

There are more airlines flying out of Ireland than just Ryanair and Aer Lingus.

And maybe I should have rephrased my earlier post. I won't be happy to see them go out of business, but they need to do a hell of a lot more to be competitive. And when flying I don't allow feelings of nostalgia come into it, I pick the airline that offers the best service at the price I'm willing to pay. And usually it's never Aer Lingus.

Competition is good, but it has to be real competition. If Aer Lingus do fail, I'm hoping the state doesn't step in to support it.

Incidentally, I once worked with a girl who had previously worked for both Ryanair and Aer Lingus. She said she earned more at Aer Lingus, but enjoyed working for Ryanair more. To me that says a lot about the management styles in each organisation.

rightwingdub

Once again the cabin crew fail to comprehend reality, O'Leary must be pi**ing himself laughing at the stupidity of 64% of cabin crew who voted against the Labour court recomendations, oh well unions don't have any concept of reality, at least the pilots saw sense but the cabin crew need to be medically assessed by a shrink as far as I'm concerned.

cson

Andrew33 wrote: »

Why do you say that?? back in the dark old days only two airlines flew between Eire and the Uk (AL & BA) and it cost more then to fly to london then it does now to fly half way around the world. Ok it was a duopoly but the same rules apply. Do you really want Ryanair as the only way of flying shorthaul from Eire? Why do you think the monopolies commision blocked MOL's attempt to buy Aer Lingus? Not good for business, not good for competition and NOT good for the consumer, ie YOU.

That's an irrelevant point.

Either Aer Arann will fill the gap for shorthaul or, more likely,a group of private investors will take over the shell of Aer Lingus and thing will continue as per usual. Minus the unions. So on a rather blunt level; if that scenario was to play out then Aer Lingus collapsing is a good thing and not this aviation apocolypse you're alluding to.

silverharp

Andrew33 wrote: »

Why do you say that?? back in the dark old days only two airlines flew between Eire and the Uk (AL & BA) and it cost more then to fly to london then it does now to fly half way around the world. Ok it was a duopoly but the same rules apply. Do you really want Ryanair as the only way of flying shorthaul from Eire? Why do you think the monopolies commision blocked MOL's attempt to buy Aer Lingus? Not good for business, not good for competition and NOT good for the consumer, ie YOU.

You dont understand the history. The "cartel" was gov. led. It was effectively a carve up between a couple of state run airlines. Aerlingus was able to veto new routes coming into Dublin until the EU made them change the rules. Not comparable to now. The market is saturated so cant imagine there would be much price gouging.

Andrew33

zootroid wrote: »

There are more airlines flying out of Ireland than just Ryanair and Aer Lingus.

And maybe I should have rephrased my earlier post. I won't be happy to see them go out of business, but they need to do a hell of a lot more to be competitive. And when flying I don't allow feelings of nostalgia come into it, I pick the airline that offers the best service at the price I'm willing to pay. And usually it's never Aer Lingus.

Competition is good, but it has to be real competition. If Aer Lingus do fail, I'm hoping the state doesn't step in to support it.

Incidentally, I once worked with a girl who had previously worked for both Ryanair and Aer Lingus. She said she earned more at Aer Lingus, but enjoyed working for Ryanair more. To me that says a lot about the management styles in each organisation.

Agreed, there are more airlines flying from Eire now but for multitude of routes there are only AL and RY, so NONE of the other airlines would offer any direct competition to ryanair. On the cost thing, I fly back and forth to Faro on a regular basis (20 return journeys in the past 2yrs) and just ONCE in all that time was Ryanair cheaper and not by a huge amount either.
Give me AL any day.

WalterMitty

if aer lingus go bust, Easyjet will move into dublin anyway. They already have planes on the island in Belfast. I bet though that the gov would end up taking over aer lingus due to political pressure and AL workers become state employees again with no reason to be efficient.

gurramok

I've been checking prices for flying from Dublin to London Heathrow return lately, they look to me have doubled. :eek:

Take next week for example, beginning Mar 8th, cheapest is 200quid return which is not on a Monday. The rest are heading to 300quid territory.:mad: I'm postponing that trip.

What happened to the sub 200quid return prices of '09? No wonder Aer Lingus are in the crapper when their pricing on the busiest route is too expensive.

dan_d

What do Ryanair cost?
Personally I find the 2 airlines to be the same at this stage...except AL fly you to central airports and are occasionally civil to their passengers and well, Ryanair....don't. And aren't....
I can safely say I'd be devastated if AL went bust and Ryanair had a monopoly. And no, I don't fly with Ryanair, ever.
I've said before though....it's always mildly ironic to hear the AL story on a news bulletin followed by the CPSU whinging about their pay cuts, and announcing strikes. They just don't seem to be getting the big picture here....

donkey balls

WalterMitty wrote: »

if aer lingus go bust, Easyjet will move into dublin anyway. They already have planes on the island in Belfast. I bet though that the gov would end up taking over aer lingus due to political pressure and AL workers become state employees again with no reason to be efficient.

under eu law the govt are not allowed to bail them out as for easy jet operating out of dublin that would take months if not years.
first they would have to get a operators licence for ireland then source ground handling agents FBO's etc and in the mean time ryanair would just pile more acft onto the routes that they would fly.

Dotsie~tmp

Aer Lingus are already finished. They have blown their €600mln new aircraft purchasing fund. Even if they secure the unions n a new deal they are still skint. Does anyone think private capital is going to come in to an Irish airline so hopelessly uncompetitive in these times?

Some of the unions now realise how dire their situation is, though barely. Sad to see some still telling members their job is viable without hard cuts and harder work. I know a guy who empties bins for them who turned down over 50 grand last year and would still have kept his job. He wanted to stick it to management and bizarrely M O'Leary !??!

Taxipete29

Union recommend deal.

Staff reject it

Union = Villains??

Even the worst of the right-wing anti-union idiots on this forum cant blame the unions on this one.

Dotsie~tmp

Aer Lingus are already finished. They have blown their €600mln new aircraft purchasing fund. Even if they secure the unions n a new deal they are still skint. Does anyone think private capital is going to come in to an Irish airline so hopelessly uncompetitive in these times?

Some of the unions now realise how dire their situation is, though barely. Sad to see some still telling members their job is viable without hard cuts and harder work. I know a guy who empties bins for them who turned down over 50 grand last year and would still have kept his job. He wanted to stick it to management and bizarrely M O'Leary !??!

zootroid

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Union recommend deal.

Staff reject it

Union = Villains??

Even the worst of the right-wing anti-union idiots on this forum cant blame the unions on this one.

I'm not a fan of unions at all, but the blame here lies solely with the staff.

Diarmuid

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Union recommend deal.

Staff reject it

Union = Villains??

Even the worst of the right-wing anti-union idiots on this forum cant blame the unions on this one.

You are right. But in reality the union IS the members. It was just the union-heads that recommended the deal.

Andrew33

donkey balls wrote: »

[/B]

under eu law the govt are not allowed to bail them out as for easy jet operating out of dublin that would take months if not years.
first they would have to get a operators licence for ireland then source ground handling agents FBO's etc and in the mean time ryanair would just pile more acft onto the routes that they would fly.

Are you sure about that? what about Alitalia in the past 12 months? if ever there was an airline basket case there's one! Its govt has bailed them out and what do you think our govt has done with the banks here?
Thats right! they've bailed them out(with your money).
There are ways around everything.

cson

dan_d wrote: »

What do Ryanair cost?
Personally I find the 2 airlines to be the same at this stage...except AL fly you to central airports and are occasionally civil to their passengers and well, Ryanair....don't. And aren't....
I can safely say I'd be devastated if AL went bust and Ryanair had a monopoly. And no, I don't fly with Ryanair, ever.
.

Explain to me how your are in any way placed to comment on this having never flown with them? Or do you just base it on the opinions of others? I'll knock it down to nursery level so you might be able to get a grasp of it; to assume is to make an ass of u and me

Fyi; Ryanair are an outstanding example of a well run company that has taken advantage of the extinction of competition barriers in the EU and the inefficiencies of other airlines. This fairytale romanticism of air travel shouldn't exist in this world. It's a way of getting from one place to another.

Btw; Aer Lingus are pretty much headed for insolvency no matter waht. And like any insolvent company they should be let fold.

thebman

Andrew33 wrote: »

Agreed, there are more airlines flying from Eire now but for multitude of routes there are only AL and RY, so NONE of the other airlines would offer any direct competition to ryanair. On the cost thing, I fly back and forth to Faro on a regular basis (20 return journeys in the past 2yrs) and just ONCE in all that time was Ryanair cheaper and not by a huge amount either.
Give me AL any day.

Seems like your saying no other airline would want to fill the gap in the market. Seems unlikely.

donkey balls

Andrew33 wrote: »

Are you sure about that? what about Alitalia in the past 12 months? if ever there was an airline basket case there's one! Its govt has bailed them out and what do you think our govt has done with the banks here?
Thats right! they've bailed them out(with your money).
There are ways around everything.

if that was the case how come Sabena air the belgium airline went to the wall as the govt where not allowed to bail them out,as for Alitailia i think some other airline has taken a stake in them.

ei.sdraob

thebman wrote: »

Seems like your saying no other airline would want to fill the gap in the market. Seems unlikely.

exactly if there's money to be made and profit to be had
then a company (or more) will step in
let AL fail


tho its quite likely well just endup bailing them out, because they are of "systematic importance" or some other crap like that

rugbyman

dan_d wrote: »

What do Ryanair cost?

I can safely say I'd be devastated if AL went bust and Ryanair had a monopoly. And no, I don't fly with Ryanair, ever.

Dan, if you do fly at all, I `d say you would be devasted all right.

Rugbyman

FlutterinBantam

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Some of the unions now realise how dire their situation is, though barely. Sad to see some still telling members their job is viable without hard cuts and harder work. I know a guy who empties bins for them who turned down over 50 grand last year and would still have kept his job. He wanted to stick it to management and bizarrely M O'Leary !??!

There in a nutshell ,my friends is where the problem lies.

Some gimp who empties bins wants to 'stick it to management' and refuse 50k and keep the job on a lower wage:D


Extrapolate that throughout the company and you have a very sound reason as to why they are on their last legs.

These people are the last vestiges of the 'old guard' who think that EI is still a semi-state or that the Govt. has either the will or cash to bale them out, and that unskilled people who, just because they are employed there are different from the rest of us.

Big big dose of reality will be making a solid landing on RWY 10 pretty soon I would expect.

Andrew33

Btw; Aer Lingus are pretty much headed for insolvency no matter waht. And like any insolvent company they should be let fold.

In your humble opinion:rolleyes:

And BTW, there are a couple of other low fares airlines in Europe who prove you CAN offer a low fare without treating your pax like ****e.

Take the Ryanair sunglasses off.

Diarmuid

Andrew33 wrote: »

IAnd BTW, there are a couple of other low fares airlines in Europe who prove you CAN offer a low fare without treating your pax like ****e.

Well fly with them instead and quit whinging about Ryanair.

Andrew33

Diarmuid wrote: »

Well fly with them instead and quit whinging about Ryanair.

Thats a nice measured, well thought out, adult response. how old are you? 12?

I'm not whinging about Ryanair, I'm pointing out that they're a sh1t airline and AL will survive.

FlutterinBantam

Andrew ,you are coming across to me as a typical Aer Lingus employee.

Instead of looking at Ryanair and learning from them,and trying to figure out why they are so successful,you merely slag them and dismiss them.

They are far far from perfect, but are doing something right, and instead of childishly waving the AL banner, why don't you and your colleagues study how FR do it and try to emulate their work practices and cost base.

There are loads of good sincere people at EI who have the skills, but sometimes they can be influenced unproportionately by so called hard liners who if you look closely always have another agenda or outlet.

You would do yourself and your company a lot more good to dwell on this post instead of sloganeering and burying your head in the sand.

the future of EI is in the hands of the employees.

CM doesn't take prisoners, ask the Sabena people now out of the industry.

zootroid

Andrew33 wrote: »

Thats a nice measured, well thought out, adult response. how old are you? 12?

I'm not whinging about Ryanair, I'm pointing out that they're a sh1t airline and AL will survive.

You may not be a fan of Ryanair, but there is no denying how successful they are. The same cannot be said of Aer Lingus.

Andrew33

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Andrew ,you are coming across to me as a typical Aer Lingus employee.

Instead of looking at Ryanair and learning from them,and trying to figure out why they are so successful,you merely slag them and dismiss them.

They are far far from perfect, but are doing something right, and instead of childishly waving the AL banner, why don't you and your colleagues study how FR do it and try to emulate their work practices and cost base.

There are loads of good sincere people at EI who have the skills, but sometimes they can be influenced unproportionately by so called hard liners who if you look closely always have another agenda or outlet.

You would do yourself and your company a lot more good to dwell on this post instead of sloganeering and burying your head in the sand.

the future of EI is in the hands of the employees.

CM doesn't take prisoners, ask the Sabena people now out of the industry.

I am not, and have never been an AL employee, I have no family working in or with AL, I don't even KNOW anybody who works in AL and it really pains me to see the AL employees acting like spoilt brats over this.
They are being incredibly stupid in their attitude and the travelling public will pick up on this very quickly and vote with their feet (excluding me).
I'll continue to fly with them provided they fly me to where I want to go at a price I'm willing to pay. If Ryanair changed a couple of their policies I would use them more often. Simple.

Sabena were from a different era of aviation in Europe and probably did deserve to go, Alitalia did get State help just as our banks here have gotten state help(with the EU's approval) AL don't deserve to go under and they won't.

cson

Pray tell me why they don't deserve to go under? There are plenty of businesses going under in this country at the moment because the outgoings are larger than what's coming in. Now in the real world that's referred to as insolvency; and businesses fold because of it. Now what makes you [and the EI employees by extension] think that Aer Lingus should be any different? Because it shouldn't. It's an inefficient company; it should be allowed go under and I have no doubt it will be replaced. Don't give me ****e about it being symbolic or other such nonsense; it's a business; it's air travel; it ceased to be romantic about 30 odd years ago.

Elevator

Sooner it collapses the better, piece by piece the governments plans and monopolies are being picked away yey

flanzer

Aer Lingus will never go under. Ryanair will end up paying tuppence for it, flush out the unions and deadwood, sell some of the Heathrow slots and use Aer Lingus' good reputation to develope more transatlantic slots and make it profitable again

ixoy

With the constant threat of industrial action, I've done my best to avoid booking with Aer Lingus recently, including for a holiday later this year. I generally prefer the service Aer Lingus offered but I've had too many holidays under the threat of strike action to be bothered anymore and go with other airlines. The airline need to realize they're souring good will with their refusal to reform and seek a more secure future.

ceret

ei.sdraob wrote: »

nothing like sitting back and watching unions tear apart a (previously) good company

Previously good? Aer Lingus charged a fortune to fly a short distance. The reason they are going bust is not exactly cause of the unions, but is because ryanair have been offering a the same (*cough*) service and better prices. Customers have switched. Aer Lingus can adapt or die. it looks like they can't adapt, so they'll die.

mike65

flanzer wrote: »

Aer Lingus will never go under. Ryanair will end up paying tuppence for it, flush out the unions and deadwood, sell some of the Heathrow slots and use Aer Lingus' good reputation to develope more transatlantic slots and make it profitable again

The decline of AL reminds me quite a bit of Waterford Glass, once successful and profiltable but slow to adapt, a few wrong moves, external buffeting, attempts to restucture that don't quite work, cost overhangs, the presumption that "something will come along" to rescue the situation and then BANG! Its over, except its not as the name is bought and a very reduced
version restarts for the tourist/trophy market.

jmayo

ei.sdraob wrote: »

ah yes ill get the popcorn ready

nothing like sitting back and watching unions tear apart a (previously) good company

to think of it these very same people are trying their best to tear apart the country

what is the punishment for treason in Ireland? these unions (like FF) should be all tried for treason for bringing down good companies and dragging the country into a sewer

Sometimes I do really wonder about you ei.sdraob
You claim EI were a good company ?
FFS they have nearly always lived off the taxpayer and being subsidised either directly or indirectly through regulatory requirements.

The company has like a lot of semi states or ex semi states been more for the interests of their employees than the owners or customers.

hiorta wrote: »

Wasn't the start of Aer Lingus problems when Ryanair began trading? The customers preferred the newcomer.

Maybe it had something to do with fact you needed to save for months to afford an EI flight all the while you were being told how lucky you were to fly with our national carrier and how they cared so much about you. :rolleyes:
If they ever thought their service was so much better than some other airlines just showed how bloody deluded they were ?

ceret wrote: »

Previously good? Aer Lingus charged a fortune to fly a short distance. The reason they are going bust is not exactly cause of the unions, but is because ryanair have been offering a the same (*cough*) service and better prices. Customers have switched. Aer Lingus can adapt or die. it looks like they can't adapt, so they'll die.

Well said.

garyingalway

im supposed to fly ei107 snn-jfk on the 18th March, im very concerned about a cabin crew strike now, can anyone see a strike happening in the next week?? By the way, does anyone know which ei plane is operating as ei107 thursdayweek?

jimmycrackcorm

Taxipete29 wrote: »

Union recommend deal.

Staff reject it

Union = Villains??

Even the worst of the right-wing anti-union idiots on this forum cant blame the unions on this one.

But what is a union? It's the workers. There is no third party here- the workers have a select number to represent them but they still think militantly and are the actual union. So yes - they have rejected the deal.

Unions need to be both pro-company and pro-worker instead of holding historically only the worker-viewpoint.

Mind you - the news today of solely cabin crew redundancy is utterly bad management as it's a bullying tactic and not a fair and honest approach by management.

gandalf

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Mind you - the news today of solely cabin crew redundancy is utterly bad management as it's a bullying tactic and not a fair and honest approach by management.

Why is it bullying surely they had to expect consequences from their decision to go against their own unions recommendation and the fact all other staff voted for the plan.

They left the airline with no other choice but to force redundancies on them, what would have been fairer to force redundancies on those who voted for the cost saving plan as well?

Lemming

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Mind you - the news today of solely cabin crew redundancy is utterly bad management as it's a bullying tactic and not a fair and honest approach by management.

deadtiger wrote: »

Why is it bullying surely they had to expect consequences from their decision to go against their own unions recommendation and the fact all other staff voted for the plan.

They left the airline with no other choice but to force redundancies on them, what would have been fairer to force redundancies on those who voted for the cost saving plan as well?

I would agree with deadtiger here. Management have said (ref. today's Irish Times) that they would respect the vote of the other unions and seek voluntary redundancies from them, but that the cabin crew are to receive mandatory redundancies, that there would be no deals and no reballoting since they have left the company no other option.

The members of Impact within Aer Lingus have brought it upon themselves I'm sorry to say. Their union recommended that they accept; they rejected. What would be unfair would be management targetting every area of the company equally when every other union accepted the terms put to them. That would be bad management - not to mention utterly destroy morale company-wide and leave workers with a sense of the company playing opportunity with their livelihoods.

Idbatterim

The below are statements from Muller...

"a small number of SIPTU cabin crew who accepted the proposal will not face compulsory redundancy"

"Someone who votes 'No' to a proposition should not get an easier way out than the ones who have voted in favour."

I understand from the article that I read, that all cabin crew voted yes would be safe! Would the ballot not be secret? Unbelievable! it would take a German to put things in this bloody country right! If you want to gamble, others shouldnt have to pay the price if you lose! Why dont we get Muller in charge of PS reform?!