Which High Efficiency Gas Boiler

Ambersky

Hi.
My old gas boiler is 20 years old and has given good service.
Ive had a few problems with it lately however and even though it is not dead and is probably fixable I think it may be an opportune time to go for a new high efficiency gas fired boiler.
Im aware of the €700 grant available if I include a heating control upgrade and have it put in by a registered plumber.
If I wait untill next year the grant may be gone so I think Ill take advantage of it while I can.

So my question here is are Baxi boilers ok?
I think they are installed in quite a few houses in Dublin, so does that popularity mean they are reliable and easy to fix if the need arises?
Are there any boards members out there who either have a Baxi boiler and can recommend them or who have experience putting them in and servicing them.
My plumber also recommended a Worchester/Bosch as a good make he also installs.
So any comments or advice.

items

Its a good idea to go for Grant while they still remain, its only a matter of time before they become limited / gone completely. With the Massive Budget deficit I cant see Grants remaining in the current form, at the moment I'm not aware if any changes but I don't think its something that will become readily announced.

Once boiler is accepted by SEI as an energy saving boiler then you cant go to far wrong. Modern day boilers have to meet standards, plenty of competition out there so it wont take much to notice the good boilers making it to top of lists.

Their is a good few different boilers to choose from, Baxi is a well known brand with plenty sold all over Ireland so suppliers should have a good stock of spare parts should boiler require replacement.

From fitting different boilers over 10 years going back 5 years ago I found Viessmann and Vokera performed well over that 10 year period, If I had to buy a boiler tomorrow I'd go for a Viessmann Condensing.

From my experience Potterton boilers had plenty of issues along with some Italian made Gas boilers. These were manufacture issues / faulty parts that only came to light 3 + years after install. Things might have changed with newer models.

It's all about budget really, find the best boiler within your budget, all Gas boilers are capable of performing well, majority of Gas boiler problems comes down to bad installation and poor maintenance.

Their is only so much a Gas boiler can do, all you can do is match heat requirement to boiler output, find most efficient boiler within your budget and then look after boiler with an annual service.

I find a lot of homeowners don't bother have boiler serviced until boiler breaks down, so if you've heard mixed reports about a certain boiler the boiler might not be the problem, its the user creating the problem, looking after boiler is important so its possible to select any boiler, boiler will work well once installed correctly and regular serviced by a good service person.

JohnnieK

Hi Ambersky

Most modern boilers are very similer in efficency with some being a nose in front of the rest like items has mentioned Viessmann and your own plumber Worcester they are probably the best but a bit more expensive but you get what you pay for. Ariston are also a very good boiler.

Also the boiler is only as good as the system it's installed on. If it's an open system (your plumber should know) well then it will need to be flushed prior to the boiler being installed and then an inhibitor put in. Boiler manufactures will not stand over the warranty if it has not been treated.

You mentioned the boiler is 20 years old, it's possible your system might not be suitable for the controls. If you have a valve somewhere that can turn the rads off in the summer and only use the boiler to heat hot water well then your laughing. If not well the cost of upgrading the system will make the €700 grant look like a drop in the ocean.

I hope it works out for you because a fully controlled system would make back what you spent on it within 5 to 10 years. If you just go for a condensing boiler on it's own you would only make a saving of between 3 to 5% on your heating bill. Some installers are quoting 20% with just a new boiler but this is false. you need the controls.

yoshytoshy

If you decide to go for baxi ,get a megaflow. They are a good baxi boiler with everything built in ,pump ,vessel etc.

Worcester is good ,but when they finally need to be worked on ,they will be expensive to look after.

I've also heard viesmann are a good boiler ,along with Glowworm.

Lemo

Is the Ideal Elise a good boiler? And is the 15kW model good enough for a normal 3-bed semi?

Thank.

Ambersky

Thanks for the advice.
items I think you are right, this grant could be stopped at any time and I would be kicking myself, so I think I will act on this soon.
My old boiler probably did so well because I did get it serviced annually.

JonnieK I can turn my boiler on to heat the hot water only in the summer. Didnt realise that was another money saver so thats great. The grant stipulates that it is for a High Efficiency Gas Boiler with Heating Controls Upgrade so thats what I will be getting.

yoshytoshy, Im going to ask my plumber about the Baxi megaflow. Thanks for that tip.

Seems like its a fairly straight forward process so. I will report back on how I got on.

yoshytoshy

All you need to do really is figure out who is installing the boiler ,you do the rest online.

Items is bang on with regards to the grant ,we are telling people that it will be harder to get it soon aswell.
I don't think it will be stopped ,but it will definetly dry up.

volvo 240

When I lived in the UK about 7 years ago now I was a CORGI registered gas installer and fitted a few worcester gas boilers (these were not condensing) and had no problems with them. My aunt has a 24i combination boiler thats about 7 years old now and has had no parts replaced and no breakdowns. My aunt has it under a British gas contract now as I used to service it for her.

I also fitted a glow worm boiler in my own home and it was a load of rubbish. Always cutting out, called out glow worm as it was a new boiler and they were never able to fix it!!

Worcester condensing boiler have their fare share of troubles with heating and hot water not working in the very cold weather recently because the condensate pipe has frozen solid. Needed insulating etc.

Viessmann are not a make I have seen for sale in the UK but are very popular in France. I would try a Viessmann if I was looking for a gas boiler. A link to the worcester information and a heating forum.
http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk/forum1/central-heating-boilers-f35.html James.

Ambersky

Uh Oh!
I was introduced to a plumber by a guy I know and have named this plumber who is registered with the SEI on my grant application.
He has been out to my house and installed a new 36 x 18 insulated cylinder and immersion with motorised valve and cylinder stat (?) for €720.
He says I have a closed system, Im able to seperate the heating of the water cylinder from my central heating in summer and there is some wiring done for a thermostat in the kitchen already

He gave me a quote

1. Supply and fit 24kw Hi Effeciency Gas Boiler Baxi Condensing Type.
2. SEI Kit (motorised valve and controller etc.)
3. 1 Ltr Inhibitor.
4. 1700 x 500 Double radiator installation
5. 3 Thermostatic Valves.

Total €3,400

I trusted him because he was recommended to me but now that I ring around another plumber whos offering to flush out the system first (which hasnt been mentioned by my origional plumber) and to install a Veismann boiler gave me a quote of €1800 but depending on the piping and how difficult it was would be no more than €2500.
Thats a thousand euros cheaper.

yoshytoshy

Are you sure the second guy is pricing for a radiator ?

That 2500 price sounds very rounded and I'd be worried that it's not for the same amount of work.

Get a written quote from anyone you get a price from and detailing accessories like TRV's and heating controls upgrade.

Some guys will do a cheaper job ,but you wont see them after the job is finished. Not saying this about this guy ,but there is always a reason for a cheaper price.

yoshytoshy

volvo 240 wrote: »

I also fitted a glow worm boiler in my own home and it was a load of rubbish. Always cutting out, called out glow worm as it was a new boiler and they were never able to fix it!!

The current glowworm condense boilers have a very low failure rate. In fact I don't know of anyone that has had trouble with a glowworm.
There standard effeciency ,micron ,had a bad pcb something like the potterton suprima.

I'd have no problem going for a glowworm boiler.

Ambersky

yoshytoshy your right the second quote dosent include the radiator.
It was just a rough quote over the phone of €1800 as base price going up to about €2500 as the most it would cost if the piping was a bit more complicated to do all work, including valves and heating controls. He was willing to come out to have a look and give a propper quote.

volvo 240

yoshytoshy wrote: »

The current glowworm condense boilers have a very low failure rate. In fact I don't know of anyone that has had trouble with a glowworm.
There standard effeciency ,micron ,had a bad pcb something like the potterton suprima.

I'd have no problem going for a glowworm boiler.

I can only go on what mine was like and everyone has their opinion. If you like glowworm great, but I personally wouldn't fit one. I would probably fit the cheapest with the longest manufacturers warranty in my own home and when it's uneconomical to repair, bin it. I like back boilered solid fuel stoves because of their simplicity. James.:)

yoshytoshy

volvo 240 wrote: »

I can only go on what mine was like and everyone has their opinion. If you like glowworm great, but I personally wouldn't fit one.

It's not really anything to do with liking them ,I try to put in the best boiler on the market for people.
When you talk to the guys who have to do warranty work on all makes of boilers ,they tend to give you the best information:)

yoshytoshy

Ambersky wrote: »

It was just a rough quote over the phone of €1800 as base price going up to about €2500 as the most it would cost if the piping was a bit more complicated to do all work, including valves and heating controls. He was willing to come out to have a look and give a propper quote.

The term ,foot in the door ,comes to mind.

If you're not happy with the first guy ,tell him you think the price is a little dear.
But don't take anyones word for it over the phone ,you might not like the look of the second guy when you actually meet him:eek:

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Ambersky

A good recommendation means a lot to me. I like to get someone I can trust and Im willing to pay for good work and reliability.
Its just hard to know with trades when you are being overcharged and taken for a fool. I have no way of knowing other than to check it out here and compare quotes.
Well its good to see no one was reacting with shock or surprise at the amount of the origional quote.
You have a good point with the foot in the door, yoshytoshy and the origional plumber did a good job on the cylinder, was here on time, did a clean job and knows the system in my house and whats been going wrong.
Had a read of the thread 'Question about becoming self employed in heating industry' and noted complaints about price undercutting and customers not understanding that that dosent always compare like with like when it comes to the quality of the work.
Interesting from a customers perspective.

GopErthike

The first quote seemed about right to me, i'd always be wary of someone pricing over the phone. Again foot in the door. He'll have to cut corners to keep the price down.

I agree about the glow-worm, early microns had bad pcbs, but since si's and flexicoms were launched they've had few issues.
Also condense pipes froze on all makes of boiler.

PS always for repairs or installations go with someone with a good recommendation, even if it costs more, what price peace of mind?

JohnnieK

The system should be flushed before a new boiler goes in. The first quote sounds about right to me too. ask him to flush it as well in the price. he probably will.

mylesm

No wonder this country is in trouble with quotes like this and plumbers here agreeing its a good quote first price was 3400
I would estimate total cost of parts here would be 1500 so labour would be 1900 for about 2 days work how can anyone possibly justify this its mad

yoshytoshy

The cost of a lot of condense boilers has come down in the last few months ,so prices will be cheaper.

Theres also been a number of house fires lately ,down to muppets working on gas.

GopErthike

mylesm wrote: »

No wonder this country is in trouble with quotes like this and plumbers here agreeing its a good quote first price was 3400
I would estimate total cost of parts here would be 1500 so labour would be 1900 for about 2 days work how can anyone possibly justify this its mad

Well in my opinion its the other way around.

For someone to give such a low price usually means, they are not paying tax, cheap/stolen boiler, cheap fittings, shoddy workmanship, no back-up service and these all create problems down the line.
A lot of problems in this country are caused by people being shortsighted and doing things by halves to save a few quid.
Plumbers and installers get a bad name because of a handful of chancers doing sh1t installations.

If you want a good job, you pay good money.

mylesm

How do you mean such a low price as I said i estimate total cost of Parts here 1500 so say for 2 days labour 500 this would bring total to 2000 Thats not a cheap price but a fair one if you think im wrong tell me where how could it be 3400 as i said

And saying if you want a good job you pay good money is like mary harney saying if you pay peanuts you get monkeys so we paid the highest political wages in the world and look what we got

I agree a fair days wages for a fair days work but to charge 3400 for the above work is Extortionate as i said i would say 1500 for parts so how much would you say to install break it down for me I would say max 2 days work

yoshytoshy

mylesm wrote: »

How do you mean such a low price as I said i estimate total cost of Parts here 1500 so say for 2 days labour 500 this would bring total to 2000 Thats not a cheap price but a fair one if you think im wrong tell me where how could it be 3400 as i said

And saying if you want a good job you pay good money is like mary harney saying if you pay peanuts you get monkeys so we paid the highest political wages in the world and look what we got

I agree a fair days wages for a fair days work but to charge 3400 for the above work is Extortionate as i said i would say 1500 for parts so how much would you say to install break it down for me I would say max 2 days work

This is the type of crap that causes accidents in peoples homes and fires.

To run a business ,theres thousands in overheads. Tradesmen don't just get out of bed jump on a bicylce with a ladder tied to their bike:rolleyes:

People with cop on know what it costs to run a business and everything else that goes along with it.

Just because you see a few prices on the internet ,doesn't give you a B.A.

mylesm

Not prices on internet but in Plumbing outlets in Dublin Most Condensing Boilers approx 1000 Euro go ahead if you think its crap break it down I am quite happy that 2000 is a fair price and 3400 is extortiante its those kind of crap prices that have us where we are

mylesm

mylesm wrote: »

I am quite happy that 2000 is a fair price

Good for you, get yourself a bag of tools and put the country right

mylesm wrote: »

3400 is extortiante its those kind of crap prices that have us where we are

Based on what, you haven't seen the job.

You have decided it's the plumbing mafia:cool: that are at fault based on a post on boards and now your going to bitch at the plumbers on here who put the effort into giving free and knowledgeable advice. The good plumbers i know don't rip off their customers or they wouldn't last long and without them what would you be left with:eek:.

yoshytoshy

2000 less VAT = around 1750

Good luck to anyone buying a worcester ,1700 x 500 radiator ,wiring pack ,pipe ,fittings ,cable and the cost of getting rid of rubbish for 1750.

Oh yeah ,any moneys you do manage to scrape for yourself you have to pay tax on.
You also need to pay for diesel etc ,phone bills ,insurance.


Of course ,us plumbers get everything for free. We are so special ,everything is handed to us on a silver platter.

It's muppets who have us were we are at the moment.

Joey the lips

i have mainly supplied baxi and potterton so they are the main brand names i am familuar with however the company i use to work for had the agency for Ravenheat to supply all of ballymun. Have to say they impressed the hell out of me. They have a version on the market that actually recycles the flue gases to give you 20% more energy in the form of hot water.

As any plumber knows 20% of all energy consumed in a gas boiler is down to hot water requirement so it effectivly works out as free hot water.

Anyway enough of the sales pitch.

I like the boiler. Availability of part....Hummm i dont know...but what goes wrong on them...Nothing!

B&Q do ravenheat so i am sure as they will have to stand over them will have contact numbers for spare parts...

Outside that i have the agents number for ireland if anyone wants any more info on them.


My overall feeling on boilers would be dont go spending good money on boilers to buy sh1t controls and do make sure that all the controls are fitted...Down to the TRV on the rad.

The grants will end soon so i would get any work needed done as soon as possible

yoshytoshy

Joey the lips wrote: »

company i use to work for had the agency for Ravenheat to supply all of ballymun. Have to say they impressed the hell out of me. They have a version on the market that actually recycles the flue gases to give you 20% more energy in the form of hot water.

Joey any idea what diameter the exchanger coil is ?

mylesm

gary71 wrote: »

Good for you, get yourself a bag of tools and put the country right

Based on what, you haven't seen the job.

You have decided it's the plumbing mafia:cool: that are at fault based on a post on boards and now your going to bitch at the plumbers on here who put the effort into giving free and knowledgeable advice. The good plumbers i know don't rip off their customers or they wouldn't last long and without them what would you be left with:eek:.

Based on what the op said


1. Supply and fit 24kw Hi Effeciency Gas Boiler Baxi Condensing Type.
2. SEI Kit (motorised valve and controller etc.)
3. 1 Ltr Inhibitor.
4. 1700 x 500 Double radiator installation
5. 3 Thermostatic Valves.

Total €3,400

Baxi Boiler here no mention of worcester and the rest is standard I still maintain 3400 is a crazy price even without seeing the job but based on years of experience unless this persons house is totally different to the hundreds I have worked in over the years

Joey the lips

yoshytoshy wrote: »

Joey any idea what diameter the exchanger coil is ?

No not a clue but it adds a quarter to the length of the boiler from memory.

yoshytoshy

Joey the lips wrote: »

No not a clue but it adds a quarter to the length of the boiler from memory.

No worries ,I had a look at the make up of the boiler online and their condenser looks pretty much like the baxi megaflow.
Same type of exchanger and burner.

Joey the lips

yoshytoshy wrote: »

No worries ,I had a look at the make up of the boiler online and their condenser looks pretty much like the baxi megaflow.
Same type of exchanger and burner.

No its not the same from what i can read...


www.ravenheat.co.uk/pdf/manuals/Energycatcher%20rev.%2016%20.pdf

hope this link works... but if it does not go to the ravenheat website type in "energy catcher" and no 5 is specific to the workings of the energy catcher...

Ambersky

As I have said in a previous post in this thread.

A good recommendation means a lot to me. I like to get someone I can trust and Im willing to pay for good work and reliability.

Ive had a problem with water dripping out the overflow pipe from my attic into my back garden for a couple of years.

No one seems to be able to fix it.

It usually happens if I don’t use the shower in my house for three days, so if I go away I come back and find it leaking again.
If I go away for a couple of weeks it pours.

So far Im on my third plumber.
The first guy was frustrated and gave up.
Then I asked a guy who does some work around the house for me and whom I trust to have a go.
He fitted non return valves to some of the pipes and refitted the ball cock.
The problem remained and so he advised I call in a friend of his whom he said was a kind of an expert and was a fully registered plumber.

This plumber said I had a problem with water pitching from my hot water cylinder that it was overheating and advised me to get a new cylinder.
He said that would fix the problem.
So he Supplied and fit 36x18 insulated cylinder and immersion.
Supplied and fit motorised valve and cylinder stat.
Total €720

That didn’t fix the problem and water continued to flow out the back of my house.

Called him again to look at the problem and he said water must now be Pitching ( I think thats the phrase) from my boiler. It couldn’t be from anywhere else.
My boiler was nearly 20 years old but it was going fine, I thought.
I knew I would probably be needing a new one as they don’t last forever.
And there were government grants available that this plumber was registered for.
So discussing it with the plumber and wanting to end this problem once and for all I decided to go for it and get a new radiator in one room as well.
This time as I have already posted
Supply and fit 24Kw Hi efficiency gas boiler Baxi Condensing type
SEI Kit motorised valve and countroller etc
1Ltr inhibitor
1700 x 500 double radiator
3 thermostatic valves
Total €3400

Again it didn’t work water flowed out the pipe the next time I was away.

The plumber came back and said it didn’t make sense.
He fitted non return valves under my kitchen sink and said that he wouldn’t charge unless it worked.
I was happy with that deal and thought this showed he was really trying and would fix the problem.

But this last effort didn’t work.
The water came out the pipe again and the plumber called to my house while I was at work looked at it from the outside with the water leaking and said it definitely was the ball cock. It was a small job and he would do it soon.
Weeks passed but that was ok if he was going to fix it.


There was water coming out of the pipe again this morning.
The handyman guy called climbed into the attic and saw that the ball cock was working all right.

Now the plumber says its not his problem.
He says he did his work properly and dosent understand what Im upset about, I should just turn off the water at the mains.

I think he just wants to do the big jobs but cant be botherd with trying to figure out the little fiddly things that go wrong.
I also think that I paid him for his expert advice and paid him quite a lot of money. His advice was incorrect but at no stage did he say he made any kind of mistake. It was always the water must also be coming from here now that we have fixed that.

What can I do is there any way I can make him fix things for me after paying so much money?
Is there a regulatory body I could contact, or that I should contact?

Im going away for a holiday soon and below is an image of the overflow which had been directed into my drainpipe last year.
It seemed like a good enough solution untill the big freeze came and all the water in my drainpipe froze and left me with hanging icicles.
The water also dripped down onto a bench and produced some impressiveSnow 2009 051.jpg icicles there.
Now the water comes out the shorter of the two pipes in the photo. I hope that dosent freeze when I go away.
I dont want to be worrying about water and where its going while Im on holidays and the guy that does work for me says he will drop in to check on it and that I can turn off the mains. But now even when I hear something like shutting off the mains will definitely fix it I dont believe it but figure I have to wait and see.

GopErthike

The first question I'd ask is which pipe is the water coming from?

If you have a large (or two large) and a small tank, can you trace the pipe thats always leaking and identify which tank it is coming from?

slavetothegrind

It usually happens if I don’t use the shower in my house for three days, so if I go away I come back and find it leaking again.
If I go away for a couple of weeks it pours.

If you have zero water consumption in your house for x amount of time it flows out the overflow pipe.

i can't understand how this flow would increase with time?

Was the ball cock replaced at all on the tank the pipe is coming from?

is the overflow fitting by any chance at or below the shut off level of the ballcock?

could you post a photo of the tank arrangement and positions of the above and also the pipe from the hot cylinder, this will be 22mm and looking into the main water tank.

might give us a clue!

Ambersky

Ah look, thanks lads for the thoughts and all the effort to figure out why there is still water coming out the overflow, but I honestly dont think this is a thing to be sorted out online.
slavetothegrind . Im not sure about the increase in flow, I wrote that based on a comment from a neighbour who promised to keep an eye on my house for me while I went on holiday two years ago. I dont know if would still be the case, because there has been work done and I havent gone away for any length of time recently.

When I wrote my last post I was upset at the attitude of the plumber.
I was probably venting a little here.
I had water running and he wouldn’t come and have a look at it actually happening because he was too busy with bigger jobs.
I had already paid him for a bigger job and he considered it finished and was now tired of it, even irritated.
He wouldn’t arrange a time to call out when I could be there, answer my phone calls or reply to the messages I left.
He told me the work he had done would fix the problem and it hadn’t.
I paid out a fair amount of money to this plumber based on his advice that the work was necessary in order to fix the overflow.
I believe I treated him very fairly, respected his professionalism, went with his advice, took time off work to facilitate his work schedule, paid him in cash as he requested as soon as he finished the work.

I’m going to go take this further but I don’t know the best or most effective way to go about it yet.
I have written down the events as I see them and taken photocopies of documents.
Some friends of mine involved in the building and rental industry who are more use to dealing with issues like this are going to look into things a bit for me and I will wait to see what they have to say.

not.a.plumber

Ambersky wrote: »

Ah look, thanks lads for the thoughts and all the effort to figure out why there is still water coming out the overflow, but I honestly dont think this is a thing to be sorted out online.
slavetothegrind . Im not sure about the increase in flow, I wrote that based on a comment from a neighbour who promised to keep an eye on my house for me while I went on holiday two years ago. I dont know if would still be the case, because there has been work done and I havent gone away for any length of time recently.

When I wrote my last post I was upset at the attitude of the plumber.
I was probably venting a little here.
I had water running and he wouldn’t come and have a look at it actually happening because he was too busy with bigger jobs.
I had already paid him for a bigger job and he considered it finished and was now tired of it, even irritated.
He wouldn’t arrange a time to call out when I could be there, answer my phone calls or reply to the messages I left.
He told me the work he had done would fix the problem and it hadn’t.
I paid out a fair amount of money to this plumber based on his advice that the work was necessary in order to fix the overflow.
I believe I treated him very fairly, respected his professionalism, went with his advice, took time off work to facilitate his work schedule, paid him in cash as he requested as soon as he finished the work.

I’m going to go take this further but I don’t know the best or most effective way to go about it yet.
I have written down the events as I see them and taken photocopies of documents.
Some friends of mine involved in the building and rental industry who are more use to dealing with issues like this are going to look into things a bit for me and I will wait to see what they have to say.

I hope by now some qualified tradesman has figured this out for you and not robbed you in the process. Your gutters have been cut by your neighbours and is obviously not joined up properly, rainwater is flowing backwards eventually overflowing. Plenty of 'advice' from the 'plumbers' but no mention that you have been completely robbed by a so-called professional tradesman. l hope you did society a favour and took this guy to court, reported him to the relevant governing body, and get his name out there that he did in fact con you out of a lot of money (word of mouth is powerful). P.S. don't, under any circumstances, let anyone cut your gutters.. They are a continuous system for a reason.