Pensions - grow old at your own expense

xoxyx

FFS. FFFFFFFFFS. What are the crazy powers that be going to come up with next to take away the money that we work hard to make? Oh yes, compulsory pensions!

This really pisses me off. For a number of reasons.

It's going to be compulsory! Oh hai - you are not paying into a pension scheme. Obviously you have your reasons not to want to start a pension yet, but they must be stupid reasons. So, let me help you by taking away 5% of your money to provide for your future.

Um - hai. Actually, I'm in the process of providing for my future. Maybe:

1. I've bought a second home as security (which I'm sure you are going to tax me through the arse for);

2. I'm about to patent my amazing new invention which will be paying out in royalties until my grandchildren have turned to fossils;

3. I have pots of money thanks, I'm going to live out my old age in the Bahamas living off my interest;

4. I have feck all money, but I'm sure something will work out - that's why I've birthed all these successful children;

5. I say to hell with the pension, I'm going to die young;

6. I'm only twenty-four - bugger off.

And these are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there are many legitimate reasons why people haven't yet started a pension fund and don't need to be strong-armed into doing so.

And

It's just another tax! Ok, it's a pension right now, but wasn't PRSI a form of insurance back in the day? Well, I've paid many years of PRSI and I don't feel very insured. And now PRSI has fallen into the dust and what do I get? Not so much as a plastic pair of glasses after my many €1000s of contribution! I hate to think what this pension scheme may have evolved into by the time I'm ready to enjoy my senior years (probably at age 97 the way things are going).

Flipping government schemes to generate money. What is going to come next? I'll tell you what. Job loss insurance fund, whereby we'll have to pay a percentage of our salary out to ensure that if we lose our job we'll be able to pay for our own dole.

Blood boiling!

bleg

Ya it sucks. Country's broke though, what can you do?

Danbo!

Summary please?

It's not that long, but there's 2 "hai's" in the first few lines, and I really don't think I could stomach another

galwayrush

Thank you FF.:mad:

alwaysadub

I was counting down the next 35 years for when i retired with great anticipation-now i have to tack on another 3 years to it:mad:

And lose more money in the process :mad:

Oisintarrant

I think it makes genuine sense. Ive always turned down pension payments when starting a new job as I felt a bit like yourself only not as extreme.
Im young mid 20s no point in paying into something for 50 years in the future. Thing is though,
its either pay 5 % of your own money to be spent by YOU in the future,
OR
pay tax increases for the rest of your life to pay Joe McScumbag whos only had a job long enough to scrape a state pension.
It will strenghten the country in the long run as long as theyre not investing it in the same bottomless holes that private pensions have disappeared into.
Good to see something economically strategic coming from the goverment

galwayrush

galwayrush wrote: »

Thank you FF.:mad:

Fred Flinstone?

genericguy

So we now can add this to the litany of offences against the state that this government has committed.

the priests raped you and your childrens' arseholes, and the government doesn't want them punished.

the bank played monopoly with all your money, costing you a fortune on our house. the government takes another fortune from you to help the bank out.

the minister for defence commits perjury, for which a normal citizen would be jailed. they send him to sit on the back bench, collecting a huge salary, and give him a ministerial pay-off to soften the blow to him.

they are actively seeking to force people out of employment via the headshop legislation, which will also have the extra added bonus of giving money to the gangland thugs who are shooting each other and innocent people for the laugh. on top of this they aren't recruiting any more police despite the huge increases in serious crime.

they've removed care assistants from special needs schools, leaving our most vulnerable members of society without essential education services.

the hospitals are fcuked.
the schools are fcuked.
there's no funding for academic research.


but fcuk it, they dropped the price of a pint, so fianna failure still retain enough support to stay where they are. if this was any other country i'm positive the bodies of all the FF and Greens would be lining the streets.

State pensions to be eventually phased out.

pookie82

z_topaz wrote: »

FFS. FFFFFFFFFS. What are the crazy powers that be going to come up with next to take away the money that we work hard to make? Oh yes, compulsory pensions!

This really pisses me off. For a number of reasons.

It's going to be compulsory!

You can opt out. You're automatically signed up for it but you can choose to opt back out again. So it's not compulsory in the extreme sense. It just means you have to make an effort NOT to participate.

xoxyx

Stee wrote: »

Summary please?

It's not that long, but there's 2 "hai's" in the first few lines, and I really don't think I could stomach another

The first "hai" is meant to be representative of the helpful manner of the people who wish to take away a portion of our wages in order to better improve our lives.
The second "hai" is responding in a friendly, yet bemused manner to the first "hai".
There are no more "hai's" in the body of my post. I don't "hai" very often - I just thought it suited the context in this post.

Thoie

pookie82 wrote: »

You can opt out. You're automatically signed up for it but you can choose to opt back out again. So it's not compulsory in the extreme sense. It just means you have to make an effort NOT to participate.

You will be automatically re-enrolled after 2 years. It's not clear whether you can immediately opt out again.

pookie82

Thoie wrote: »

You will be automatically re-enrolled after 2 years. It's not clear whether you can immediately opt out again.

I think you can keep opting out. I was watching Hanafin talking about it on the news.

Though who believes anything out of her mouth anymore.

genericguy

rarnes1 wrote: »

Fred Flinstone?

not quite, but he'd undoubtedly do a better fcuking job.

Sofa King Great

1. People are stupid. It cannot be left up to people to look after their own pension so the government are making sure these people arent flat broke when they get old

2. The country is broke. They need money to pay out the old age pension, where do you think this money will come from?

heyjude

rarnes1 wrote: »

State pensions to be eventually phased out.

Seems like a logical conclusion

xoxyx

Of course, if you have statements like this:

"It is estimated that while there are almost six workers to support each pensioner today. But the middle of the century that ratio will have fallen to less than two workers per pensioner - creating an unsustainable burden on the working population."

(RTE Business, http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0303/pensions.html)

you would feel justified in taxing the crap out of everything that moves.

Am I very wrong, or does this seem like a blatant over exaggeration. Within 40 years the ratio of working non-pensionable people to pensioners will drop from 6:1 to 2:1?

We're not emigrating that quickly!!!

Sofa King Great

People are living longer and the birth rate is declining.

Therefore less young people, more old people

xoxyx

Yeah - but to such a rate?

LD 50

Sofa King Great wrote: »

1. People are stupid. It cannot be left up to people to look after their own pension so the government are making sure these people arent flat broke when they get old

And you're assuming the people that came up with this plan, or most of this gov'ts plans aren't stupid, that they're genius', or at least intelligent!!
HA!

Sofa King Great

z_topaz wrote: »

Yeah - but to such a rate?

6/7 = 86% per cent of population below 65
1/7 = 14% per cent of population above 65

in 40 Years
2/3 = 66% per cent of population below 65
1/3 = 33% per cent of populaiton above 65

I think that is possible

Sofa King Great

LD 50 wrote: »

And you're assuming the people that came up with this plan, or most of this gov'ts plans aren't stupid, that they're genius', or at least intelligent!!
HA!

So what would you do? Have all the people in their 70s/80s work like in america??

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

pookie82 wrote: »

You can opt out. You're automatically signed up for it but you can choose to opt back out again. So it's not compulsory in the extreme sense. It just means you have to make an effort NOT to participate.

Will I get any of the money that they take from me if I am not quick enough to opt out? Will this option be given to everyone before they start their new job or is it going to be the case of searching for forms filling them out and waiting months for a response? As you know, schemes like this means that people need to work more, plenty of problems which cause massive delays. What should take a week to sort out will probably take months. Like anything with the government.

Thoie wrote: »

You will be automatically re-enrolled after 2 years. It's not clear whether you can immediately opt out again.

If not, why not? I should be able to make the choice for myself if I wish for a pension or not.

Sofa King Great wrote: »

1. People are stupid. It cannot be left up to people to look after their own pension so the government are making sure these people arent flat broke when they get old

People are stupid, not everyone. A pension is not for everyone. People should be left with the choice of taking out a pension or not. It's quite possible that in the future the government may make more mistakes that cause them to lose billions. Then they dip into the pension fund and say "ALL YOUR PENSIONS ARE BELONG TO US!!!".

2. The country is broke. They need money to pay out the old age pension, where do you think this money will come from?

Lets see? The poor? Those on social welfare? Children? Disabled? OAP's? We should take the money from the less educated and less well off. It's easier to take money from an OAP or disabled person...

Seriously though, the people who broke this country should pay for it, but instead they are made redundant and handed millions of euros to say sorry to them for letting them go. Instead of taking them to a criminal court and prosecuting them and handing out hefty fines. They can't do this though, as a lot of the government and people in high places cover each others backs. They look out for each other and instead of them being punished for their crimes against this state, they are rewarded, while we are punished, the poor peons of this cluster fcuk of a country.

May those bastards that put us in this situation die a horrible horrible death.

Another thing. Watch the crime rates soar as we get fcuked head first in to a colossal shít storm, you think people will take this crap? Expect plenty of petty crimes being committed. I mean, people have to live, they have to survive and the government are making that extremely difficult to do. Honest hard working people will find other means to survive, and it's such a pity.

Fcuk the ministers and their high profile supporters, tax those cnuts, cut their pays and see how they like it. The 1% income levy effects those on lower wages more than those prícks in the dail that are on 100K+... It's a shambles of a country, why do we take this shít?

Fcuk me, that was some tangent, sorry :P

Sofa King Great

Amora Drab Top wrote: »

Seriously though, the people who broke this country should pay for it, but instead they are made redundant and handed millions of euros to say sorry to them for letting them go. Instead of taking them to a criminal court and prosecuting them and handing out hefty fines. They can't do this though, as a lot of the government and people in high places cover each others backs. They look out for each other and instead of them being punished for their crimes against this state, they are rewarded, while we are punished, the poor peons of this cluster fcuk of a country.

So you are saying the people who are being made redundant from banks etc caused it??

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Sofa King Great wrote: »

So you are saying the people who are being made redundant from banks etc caused it??

Yes that's exactly what I said, the rest was just to throw you off, it was a coded message for the highly intelligent... ffs... :rolleyes:

How the hell did you get that from what I said? Try read it maybe? Like properly...

smurgen

hopefully the increased saving throught these pensions will lead to higher living standards to people in later life,just once it isn't mis-managed and squandered like everything else in this country

Sofa King Great

Amora Drab Top wrote: »

Yes that's exactly what I said, the rest was just to throw you off, it was a coded message for the highly intelligent... ffs... :rolleyes:

How the hell did you get that from what I said? Try read it maybe? Like properly...

I had already disregarded all the rest as rabble. You said all the people who are being made redundant should pay for it as they are at fauld did you not??

"the people who broke this country should pay for it, but instead they are made redundant and handed millions of euros to say sorry to them for letting them go."

epgc3fyqirnbsx

I'm no FF'er but compulsory pensions are a good thing, it's just that they seem abhorrent because we dont have them.

In Australia your employer must pay your wages, and must pay a sum of 9% minimum into your pension fund. I was there for a year, doing sh1tty backpacker jobs making crap money and I had €2000 in my fund at the end of it.
If we all had the same we would retire pretty comfortably.

Fact is we wont be able to pay the pensions that we're paying now in the future, we have a young population now, gonna have a very old one in the future. This has been on the cards for a long time, I remember a teacher telling me this 10 years ago.

Probably should have been introduced when we all had jobs and were flush, but that would have lost votes...

ejmaztec

Sofa King Great wrote: »

So what would you do? Have all the people in their 70s/80s work like in america??

The government would prefer the retirement age to be 95, and that all of your pension contributions be government property should you not make it that far. They'll also be introducing compulsory funeral pyres so that your sobbing wife can be tossed into the flames, and that will solve the problem of finding the cash for a widow's pension.

They've got it all sewn up.

DublinWriter

Grow old at my own expense? Damn, and there was I hoping that someone else would pay for it.

The solution is simple - encourage smoking and rescind the smoking ban. Why? Because a) 90% of the retail price each pack of ciggies goes directly into government coffers and b) smokers die young, decreasing the burden of the state pension.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Sofa King Great wrote: »

I had already disregarded all the rest as rabble. You said all the people who are being made redundant should pay for it as they are at fauld did you not??

"the people who broke this country should pay for it, but instead they are made redundant and handed millions of euros to say sorry to them for letting them go."

No, no I didn't say that at all. You take what I actually said and turned it into something else. Try not do that.

The people who broke this country, they were not fired, some did lose their jobs, asked to step down, made redundant, whatever way you want to say it, and were paid a lot of money as a "thank you" jesture.

Again, read what I said and read it properly, if you are confused about something I can explain it to you

You suggest that I said that people who were made redundant (joe soap) should pay? How did you even extract that from what I said? I don't think joe soap got a million euro handshake, did he?

If you admit to not reading what I have said properly and then trying to debate with me on one part of my post, then you do not have the tools or knowledge to continue this debate Read the rest of what I said to gather a true understanding, there's a good lad

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Douglas CoolS Troll wrote: »

I'm no FF'er but compulsory pensions are a good thing, it's just that they seem abhorrent because we dont have them.

In Australia your employer must pay your wages, and must pay a sum of 9% minimum into your pension fund. I was there for a year, doing sh1tty backpacker jobs making crap money and I had €2000 in my fund at the end of it.
If we all had the same we would retire pretty comfortably.

Fact is we wont be able to pay the pensions that we're paying now in the future, we have a young population now, gonna have a very old one in the future. This has been on the cards for a long time, I remember a teacher telling me this 10 years ago.

Probably should have been introduced when we all had jobs and were flush, but that would have lost votes...

It's all well and good, but when people struggled to pay the 1% income levy, how are they going to pay a further 5% into a pension fund that they may never see?

I agree that if you opt out of this, which is exactly what I will do, that you do not get a state pension. This, I am perfectly happy with. Some of us actually have the ability to save and put aside a nest egg for the future. It's the greedy fools that cause these problems for the rest of us.

Sofa King Great

Sofa King Great wrote: »

1. People are stupid. It cannot be left up to people to look after their own pension so the government are making sure these people arent flat broke when they get old

2. The country is broke. They need money to pay out the old age pension, where do you think this money will come from?

jaysus your lookin at it the wrong way the goddamn pension reserve fund is being raided every few weeks to put billions into the banks........

1)The banks are stupid
2)The banks are broke
3)The Govt and people are stupid for using their own money to bail the banks

PDD

Pensions are on of the oldest scams on the planet. You pay in a shed load of money over your working lifetime so you can get a miserly ammount paid out when you retire buts its ok coz when you die all that money you earned and put away (not to mention the renturn on investment using that capital) goes to............. someone else and not to your estate. Its morally repugnant.

To a certain extent yes its required because the vast majority of people are useless with finance and could not be left to their own devices to create a financial nest egg for retirement plus we live in a social welfare state. The question you have to ask yourself is wether you trust the judgement of those holding the keys, a good place to look is past performance.

Can ye blame a banker for being so risky when at the end of the day after he's lost millions or billions he gets a golden parachute or at worst a slap on the wrists, not much of a deterent is it? Anyone else in any other instance would be strung up for embezzlement.

Thoie

Douglas CoolS Troll wrote: »

I'm no FF'er but compulsory pensions are a good thing, it's just that they seem abhorrent because we dont have them.

Some of us already pay into a compulsory pension/social insurance fund - it's called PRSI.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Thoie wrote: »

Some of us already pay into a compulsory pension/social insurance fund - it's called PRSI.

Yes thats a very good point, but PRSI goes to so many other things that it would be messy

I was actually going to post that perhaps they should lower prsi to compensate for a separate pension fund, but hadn't given it enough thought, this being AH surely I'd be pulled on a point, and thought that i'd think it through later (I'm enduring the Notebook at the moment hence break time postings)

But yeah, lower PRSI say 2-3% for a 5-6% individual pension sounds good to me

arybvtcw0eolkf

I'm reminded of the old;

When they came for the gypsies no one spoke,
When they came for the gays & trades unionists, no one spoke.
When they came for the handicapped, no one spoke.
When they came for the Jew's, no one spoke.
When they came for me, there was no one left to speak..

Well I posted here last year that this would happen and was laughed out of the place!.

When they came for the public servants, no one spoke.
Now they've come for the private sector worker....

To be continued.

randylonghorn

Sofa King Great wrote: »

1. People are stupid. It cannot be left up to people to look after their own pension so the government are making sure these people arent flat broke when they get old

Might make sense if there was even a shred of evidence that the government are any less stupid ...

Thoie

Douglas CoolS Troll wrote: »

this being AH surely I'd be pulled on a point, and thought that i'd think it through later

It's late - let's sleep on it

Xluna

genericguy wrote: »

So we now can add this to the litany of offences against the state that this government has committed.

the priests raped you and your childrens' arseholes, and the government doesn't want them punished.

the bank played monopoly with all your money, costing you a fortune on our house. the government takes another fortune from you to help the bank out.

the minister for defence commits perjury, for which a normal citizen would be jailed. they send him to sit on the back bench, collecting a huge salary, and give him a ministerial pay-off to soften the blow to him.

they are actively seeking to force people out of employment via the headshop legislation, which will also have the extra added bonus of giving money to the gangland thugs who are shooting each other and innocent people for the laugh. on top of this they aren't recruiting any more police despite the huge increases in serious crime.

they've removed care assistants from special needs schools, leaving our most vulnerable members of society without essential education services.

the hospitals are fcuked.
the schools are fcuked.
there's no funding for academic research.


but fcuk it, they dropped the price of a pint, so fianna failure still retain enough support to stay where they are. if this was any other country i'm positive the bodies of all the FF and Greens would be lining the streets.

I nominate this for post of the season.

Doc

So do I get the tax back that I have already paid into the state pension fund if I am no longer going to be getting one?

ejmaztec

Doc wrote: »

So do I get the tax back that I have already paid into the state pension fund if I am no longer going to be getting one?

Nope.:(

Grimreaper666

Bernie Madoff would be proud of this scam, i'm suprised Fianna Fail haven't hired him as an advisor.

Amhran Nua

Sofa King Great wrote: »

2. The country is broke. They need money to pay out the old age pension, where do you think this money will come from?

We had the money, sadly it was all handed to the banks in the form of the pension reserve fund.

Douglas CoolS Troll wrote: »

In Australia your employer must pay your wages, and must pay a sum of 9% minimum into your pension fund. I was there for a year, doing sh1tty backpacker jobs making crap money and I had €2000 in my fund at the end of it.
If we all had the same we would retire pretty comfortably.

We do have the same, its the employer's contribution and its more like 10%.

We have a similar policy in AN, but the trick is to remove public sector pension entitlements and standardise across the board at the same time, so things balance out nicely. Naturally FF missed the point on that as well.

xoxyx

DublinWriter wrote: »

Grow old at my own expense? Damn, and there was I hoping that someone else would pay for it.

Well yes, I was hoping somebody else would fund at least part of my elderly lifestyle in the form of the state pension I was expecting to get. If people aren't working because of illness or because they can't get a job, they get the dole. If a person isn't working because they are past the retirement age, they should get the pension equivalent of the dole IMHO.

Accordingly to Article 45.4 of the Irish Constitution:

1. The State pledges itself to safeguard with especial care the economic interests of the weaker sections of the community, and, where necessary, to contribute to the support of the infirm, the widow, the orphan, and the aged.

2. The State shall endeavour to ensure that the strength and health of workers, men and women, and the tender age of children shall not be abused and that citizens shall not be forced by economic necessity to enter vocations unsuited to their sex, age or strength.

Of course this is completely completely open to interpretation, but obviously the drafters of the Constitution thought it important to include the elderly as a sector of society which may need protection. However, this pension requirement and the raising of the retirement age seems to be being forced upon us due to economic necessity without so much as a "by your leave".

As far as I'm concerned, a certain percentage of the taxes we pay throughout our working lives should be allocated into providing us a basic pension once we retire. If we want to supplement that with a private pension then that's our choice.

Sofa King Great

z_topaz wrote: »

Well yes, I was hoping somebody else would fund at least part of my elderly lifestyle in the form of the state pension I was expecting to get. If people aren't working because of illness or because they can't get a job, they get the dole. If a person isn't working because they are past the retirement age, they should get the pension equivalent of the dole IMHO.

Accordingly to Article 45.4 of the Irish Constitution:

1. The State pledges itself to safeguard with especial care the economic interests of the weaker sections of the community, and, where necessary, to contribute to the support of the infirm, the widow, the orphan, and the aged.

2. The State shall endeavour to ensure that the strength and health of workers, men and women, and the tender age of children shall not be abused and that citizens shall not be forced by economic necessity to enter vocations unsuited to their sex, age or strength.

Of course this is completely completely open to interpretation, but obviously the drafters of the Constitution thought it important to include the elderly as a sector of society which may need protection. However, this pension requirement and the raising of the retirement age seems to be being forced upon us due to economic necessity without so much as a "by your leave".

As far as I'm concerned, a certain percentage of the taxes we pay throughout our working lives should be allocated into providing us a basic pension once we retire. If we want to supplement that with a private pension then that's our choice.

SO would you prefer they raised income tax by 5/6%?? You are saying it is our constitutional right to get a pension from the state. How do you propose we pay for that? Before pepole start giving out about the current taxes they should really look at the income tax levels paid in this country in the 80s when iincome tax was as high as 60%

stovelid

Cloud skin: saving me from black text since 2000 and something.

xoxyx

Sofa King Great wrote: »

SO would you prefer they raised income tax by 5/6%?? You are saying it is our constitutional right to get a pension from the state. How do you propose we pay for that? Before pepole start giving out about the current taxes they should really look at the income tax levels paid in this country in the 80s when iincome tax was as high as 60%

I'm saying that the Constitution took care to include the elderly in its provisions, and we all know that it doesn't do such a thing lightly.

And, seeing as how pensions have been provided to the retired thus far, obviously our taxes are already taking pensions into consideration.

Don't get the relevance of the end of your post btw.

xoxyx

Sofa King Great wrote: »

6/7 = 86% per cent of population below 65
1/7 = 14% per cent of population above 65

in 40 Years
2/3 = 66% per cent of population below 65
1/3 = 33% per cent of populaiton above 65

I think that is possible

I thought you were showing stats initially when I saw your post, but you're actually just converting percentages to fractions.

Why do you think that is possible? I still think it's a completely fabricated, pull-a-figure-out-of-the-air, exaggeration.