Help with parents and Mass

ItsAWindUp

I'm a 16 year old atheist, and my parents still force me to go to Mass! They're just your average Irish Catholic, no meat on Ash Wednesday, say your prayers before you go to bed, blah blah etc. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't got a problem with that, but why is it being forced on me? And even when I go to mass, for about two years now, I just sit there, I don't even get Communion. I consider myself enlightened, because about two years ago I finally woke up and realised the only reason I prayed and stuff was out of fear of 'hell'. Anyone else have/had this problem with religious parents, and how did you deal with it?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dades

If you have to broach the subject with your folks - tell them you're a Deist or an agnostic. They're less likely to flip than if you tell them you're an atheist.

You will need to convince them that this isn't just a teen rebellion, peer pressure, or "get out of mass" thing, but a conclusion you reached yourself after much thought.

Do not go down the route of belittling or trying to discredit their faith - they won't thank you for it.

Best of luck.

Nevyn

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

I'm a 16 year old atheist, and my parents still force me to go to Mass! They're just your average Irish Catholic, no meat on Ash Wednesday, say your prayers before you go to bed, blah blah etc. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't got a problem with that, but why is it being forced on me? And even when I go to mass, for about two years now, I just sit there, I don't even get Communion. I consider myself enlightened, because about two years ago I finally woke up and realised the only reason I prayed and stuff was out of fear of 'hell'. Anyone else have/had this problem with religious parents, and how did you deal with it?

Where you confirmed as an adult in the Catholic church? ie did you make your confirmation?

If so then your parents handed over to you the responsibility for your soul and your religious practice to you, they were the care takers from you baptism but once you make your confirmation it's between you, that god and which ever priest you choose to involve and they should respect that.

Rev Hellfire

Welcome to the real world, sometimes you have to do things you might disagree with. But lets face it, its what an hour out of your life a week for easy passage with two people who've cloth and feed you the past 16 years.

Though I'd agree with Dades that you should try and reach an accommodation if possible, though I suspect this case one will not be forthcoming.

Try and remember from their perspective they're trying to help you, its not done out of devilment.

Cactus Colm

To be honest, living with my parents when I didn't want to go to mass, I just went for a stroll, popped into the local video rental shop and browsed videos for a while, stuff like that. Always "went" to the 12 noon mass or the 5pm evening one. Was pretty much an open secret that's what was going on. Of course it made family dinners more interesting when my brothers would try to catch me out (or I'd try and catch them out) on skipping mass.

Canis Lupus

I at first started leaving directly after communion which progressed to standing at the back (if you have one of those churches where people stand) and that progressed to waiting till my mom had sat down and I'd about face and piss off to do my own thing for 30ish minutes.

Eventually I just simply refused to go regardless of what they said/did/threatened.

I found the key was to do the rebelling in the church where they can't cause a scene

branie

Did you get the usual, "as long as you're under my roof, you'll go to mass " speech?

Malari

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

I'm a 16 year old atheist, and my parents still force me to go to Mass! They're just your average Irish Catholic, no meat on Ash Wednesday, say your prayers before you go to bed, blah blah etc. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't got a problem with that, but why is it being forced on me? And even when I go to mass, for about two years now, I just sit there, I don't even get Communion. I consider myself enlightened, because about two years ago I finally woke up and realised the only reason I prayed and stuff was out of fear of 'hell'. Anyone else have/had this problem with religious parents, and how did you deal with it?

I had this problem, although my father is an athiest and my mother recently admitted she's more of a humanist than a catholic which I'll be reminding her about come census time!

I didn't know their beliefs at the time. They sent me and my younger siblings to a catholic school and were worried that if I started rebelling the younger ones would decide they didn't need to go to church either and they still had to do confirmation. Basically they didn't want me rocking the boat.

It took a few months of various tactics, from derision of catholicism (I don't advise this) to sitting like a sulking teen caricature in church, to point blank refusal to attend. I did sit down on several occasions with them and explained I didn't believe any of it and I didn't want to be a hypocrite. They eventually accepted this and I think it's the best approach.

Having said that, I think my parents are reasonable and approachable on the whole, and we often have conversations about religion now. But my 40 year old boyfriend still gets told "don't be so silly" when he tells his mother he doesn't go to church because he doesn't believe it. :rolleyes: Hope you can explain to them rationally and they will respect your decision.

Zillah

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Welcome to the real world, sometimes you have to do things you might disagree with.

I'm afraid you don't get to be the authority on what the real world requires. In this case you're wrong. There is absolutely nothing fundamental about ItsAWindUp having to go to mass. In the real world, sometimes you have to upset people to do what you feel is right.

And frankly enough young people in this country have wasted hours of their lives weekly listening to short sighted, arrogant old men lecture on subjects they know little about.

Every young Irish person that refuses to toe the lie for this child abusing, homophobic, sexist, money farming, HIV spreading cult is another nail in the coffin of the Catholic Church.

Rev Hellfire

Zillah wrote: »

Every young Irish person that refuses to toe the lie for this child abusing, homophobic, sexist, money farming, HIV spreading cult is another nail in the coffin of the Catholic Church.

This has nothing to do with the church and is really about their relationship with their parents.

In the real world if you don't pay the piper you don't pick the tune.

But by all means spout a diatribe about the church, you're sure to win your parents to your view of things.

imho etc etc

krudler

Welcome to the real world, sometimes you have to do things you might disagree with. But lets face it, its what an hour out of your life a week for easy passage with two people who've cloth and feed you the past 16 years.

Its that kind of sheepish "cos you have to" attitude thats given the church so many attendants over the years, hes perfectly within his rights to refuse to do ANYTHING his parents ask that he doesnt feel comfortable with in regards to faith or lack thereof

Rev Hellfire

krudler wrote: »

Its that kind of sheepish "cos you have to" attitude thats given the church so many attendants over the years, hes perfectly within his rights to refuse to do ANYTHING his parents ask that he doesnt feel comfortable with in regards to faith or lack thereof

They're also totally within their "rights" to not eat their "broccoli" either.
The issue remains the same, assuming they can't convince their parents of the error of their ways (and I'd hazard a guess we're all assuming they can't). Is it worth the disruption to their family life for the sake of 'principle'. Or perhaps better to swallow their pride and go through the motions, taking a hit for the team as it where.

Least anyone think I'm saying the parents are in the right here I'm not, its in a way unimportant.

uncleoswald

Cactus Colm wrote: »

Of course it made family dinners more interesting when my brothers would try to catch me out (or I'd try and catch them out) on skipping mass.

I used to get the old "So what was the sermon about?" question. "Er, Jesus?"

Sympathies OP. You just have try and judge if this is a deal breaker for your parents and if it is then is important enough for you to make a stand on. Getting into a screaming match about it isn't worth it, don't elevate religion to a non-earned status in your life. As an adult I only used to go to mass on Christmas Day but the last few times I've just pretended to go like I used to when I was a teenager. My parents certainly have no idea of my lack of religious belief, they just know I don't go to mass, I have no interest in making a deal out of it.

If you don't think you can reason with them then, and if you can stand it for awhile, try to make a deal that you'll keep going till you're 17 or something. Or maybe just say you think at your age you shold be going by yourself, depending on your location this will give more chance to simply not go. I think if you keep chipping away at their resilience they'll soon give up.

Malari

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

They're also totally within their "rights" to not eat their "broccoli" either.
The issue remains the same, assuming they can't convince their parents of the error of their ways (and I'd hazard a guess we're all assuming they can't). Is it worth the disruption to their family life for the sake of 'principle'. Or perhaps better to swallow their pride and go through the motions, taking a hit for the team as it where.

Least anyone think I'm saying the parents are in the right here I'm not, its in a way unimportant.

I don't think it HAS to be a disruption. Most people here have advised trying to reason with the parents. And it's not just because it's atheism. if he wanted to become a vegetarian or wanted to dye his hair blue I'd be advocating the same approach.

I do not see anything wrong with open discussion between parents and teenagers who are starting to make their own life-changing decisions and it can only encourage trust and respect and a healthy relationship going into adulthood where you are not "afraid" to talk about certain traditional topics that may raise a bit of aggro.

Phew

goat2

I know that you have your own reasons, but beleive me, the people who really care about you are the parents, keep the peace, go to mass, and when you are a bit older you can make your own decisions, I had to do same. a very small problem, I still beleive but i am not big into this church thing.

Rev Hellfire

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

They're also totally within their "rights" to not eat their "broccoli" either.
The issue remains the same, assuming they can't convince their parents of the error of their ways (and I'd hazard a guess we're all assuming they can't). Is it worth the disruption to their family life for the sake of 'principle'. Or perhaps better to swallow their pride and go through the motions, taking a hit for the team as it where.

Least anyone think I'm saying the parents are in the right here I'm not, its in a way unimportant.

Why would this kid being honest and open about his beliefs be such a bad thing?

Wouldn't it cause more disruption for him to keep his atheism secret until, say when his mother expects him to get his first kid baptised?

Rev Hellfire

King Mob wrote: »

Why would this kid being honest and open about his beliefs be such a bad thing?

Its not and that's not an issue here, both parties are aware of the position of the other.

King Mob wrote: »

Wouldn't it cause more disruption for him to keep his atheism secret until, say when his mother expects him to get his first kid baptised?

No because by then they'll be living in a house of their own (you would hope) and can deal with their parents as peers.

Rev Hellfire

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its not and that's not an issue here, both parties are aware of the position of the other.

So then why would it be a problem for him to bring up what he brought up here (which he did so quite reasonably) with his parents in a calm and reasonable way?

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

No because by then they'll be living in a house of their own (you would hope) and can deal with their parents as peers.

So the sudden bombshell that her grandchild won't be baptised wouldn't be a bit disruptive to his mother?

I fail to see what's wrong with open, honest discussion.
I do however see what's wrong with not discussing personal beliefs and hiding them "because it's easier."

Malari

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Its not and that's not an issue here, both parties are aware of the position of the other.

We don't really know that. We only know that the OP currently being "forced" to go against his/her wishes. The parents might just think it's boredom or something and not know that the OP's been thinking about his beliefs in any way.

I just think there's no harm in at least one or two discussions. If they are really forcing the issue then I suppose it might be best to go along to avoid too much upset.

Rev Hellfire

King Mob wrote: »

So then why would it be a problem for him to bring up what he brought up here (which he did so quite reasonably) with his parents in a calm and reasonable way?

Who said it would be ? I even stated that the preferred solution would be just that.

King Mob wrote: »

So the sudden bombshell that her grandchild won't be baptised wouldn't be a bit disruptive to his mother?

I'm sure it would be, but I believe the situation as far as the level and nature of confrontation would be changed by virtue of the fact they would no longer be domiciled in their parent’s home.

Ginger Nut

Hey be a pet and just go with the flow for now. I know my folks would have believed they failed if I didnt go to mass etc. I used to hide out in a friends shed while mass was going on and they never suspected a thing (at least I dont think they did!)

Funny thing is now that they are gone I tend to go every now and then just to find a connection with them.

Rev Hellfire

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Who said it would be ? I even stated that the preferred solution would be just that.

Really?
You also said:

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

They're also totally within their "rights" to not eat their "broccoli" either.
The issue remains the same, assuming they can't convince their parents of the error of their ways (and I'd hazard a guess we're all assuming they can't). Is it worth the disruption to their family life for the sake of 'principle'. Or perhaps better to swallow their pride and go through the motions, taking a hit for the team as it where.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I'm sure it would be, but I believe the situation as far as the level and nature of confrontation would be changed by virtue of the fact they would no longer be domiciled in their parent’s home.

Or, maybe the Mother could have a good understanding of this guy's positions and beliefs due to the open and honest discussions they've had in the past.
So when the time comes she'd know that her grandchild won't be getting baptised and possibly understand the reasons why.
Doing otherwise doesn't negate the situation or improve the understanding.
It just delays it to a time when emotions are running high and possibly to a time when "You've kept this from me for so long" could enter the argument.

If your concerned about "causing disruption to the family" surely this is the preferred path?

Malari

Ginger Nut wrote: »

Hey be a pet and just go with the flow for now. I know my folks would have believed they failed if I didnt go to mass etc. I used to hide out in a friends shed while mass was going on and they never suspected a thing (at least I dont think they did!)

OK, but it's not the same for everyone. It wasn't for me, as I've already explained. I think he should first establish if his parents are absolutely unwilling to listen to his views on this, before he just shuts up and puts up for the sake of peace.

Ginger Nut wrote: »

Funny thing is now that they are gone I tend to go every now and then just to find a connection with them.

Better reason to go to church than any other I can think of.

dan_d

OP have you asked your parents would they object if you stopped going when you're 18? Give them a while to think about it. In the meantime, it is only an hour in your life every week to think about someone other than yourself.

Rev Hellfire

In my opening post:

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Though I'd agree with Dades that you should try and reach an accommodation if possible, though I suspect this case one will not be forthcoming.

I'll fully admit I'm working from the idea that a resolution between them on the topic will not be forthcoming.

Cactus Colm

King Mob wrote: »

Or, maybe the Mother could have a good understanding of this guy's positions and beliefs due to the open and honest discussions they've had in the past.
So when the time comes she'd know that her grandchild won't be getting baptised and possibly understand the reasons why.
Doing otherwise doesn't negate the situation or improve the understanding.
It just delays it to a time when emotions are running high and possibly to a time when "You've kept this from me for so long" could enter the argument.

If your concerned about "causing disruption to the family" surely this is the preferred path?

The chap's 16 ... you already have him getting some young one knocked up. But why would he have to keep his atheism secret until he was having a child?

I'm sure he can do whatever now and still find time between now and then to discuss religion with his parents. I think Reverend Hell was just saying that as he matures into adulthood, his parents might be better able to deal with him making these decisions.

Rev Hellfire

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

In my opening post:



I'll fully admit I'm working from the idea that a resolution between them on the topic will not be forthcoming.

And even if that it is the case, it's not a good reason not to talk about it.
1) A resolution could be reached depending on how the topic is approached and discussed.
2) If that doesn't work at least his parents will know what he believes and hopefully might understand why he believes it.

I see both of those scenarios being more beneficial than "not causing disruption".

who the fug

Try and find the poker game, there is one in most churches in Ireland, if not team up with some mates and rotate the masses.


If it be a my House my rules place then

As Soon as you can get the feck out of the house (after getting goods grades in leaving and choosing a college as far away as possible) and tell them you will return when you don't have to go to mass on Sunday

that be the way I survived it

Lux23

Cactus Colm wrote: »

To be honest, living with my parents when I didn't want to go to mass, I just went for a stroll, popped into the local video rental shop and browsed videos for a while, stuff like that. Always "went" to the 12 noon mass or the 5pm evening one. Was pretty much an open secret that's what was going on. Of course it made family dinners more interesting when my brothers would try to catch me out (or I'd try and catch them out) on skipping mass.

In used to do this although I was 12 when I stopped going altogether, its funny because my brothers are a good bit younger than me and they never went at all. My dad never went and my Mum goes once in a blue moon and I thought for most people thats what has happened since all the horrible things that have come out about the church in the last few years.

Cactus Colm

Cactus Colm wrote: »

The chap's 16 ... you already have him getting some young one knocked up.

A hypothetical, thought that's usually when disputes around religion would crop up with parents.

Though you never know with kids these days.;)

Cactus Colm wrote: »

But why would he have to keep his atheism secret until he was having a child?

But why keep it secret at all?

Cactus Colm wrote: »

I'm sure he can do whatever now and still find time between now and then to discuss religion with his parents. I think Reverend Hell was just saying that as he matures into adulthood, his parents might be better able to deal with him making these decisions.

And I feel it would be better to have an open, honest discussion about what he feels now than hiding it till either it comes out in a fight or not at all.

fitz0

Before I plucked up the courage to tell my parents I wasn't going to Mass anymore (at the tender age of 18) I used to bring a book with me to mass. I was sent on my own so in the warm weather Id sit outside and read or go into town and do nothing in particular. If it was cold Id sit down the back of the chapel and either read or daydream. Its quite nice to be forced to do absolutely nothing for an hour a week.

So my advice is to find something to do in that hour. Go play pool or kick a ball around if you don't go with the parents. If you do, I can't really help you. There's very little point in flat out refusing to go since they will just dismiss you as rebellious and say its a fad. Even if you win a debate/argument on the matter it will do you no good.

philologos

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

I'm a 16 year old atheist, and my parents still force me to go to Mass! They're just your average Irish Catholic, no meat on Ash Wednesday, say your prayers before you go to bed, blah blah etc. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't got a problem with that, but why is it being forced on me? And even when I go to mass, for about two years now, I just sit there, I don't even get Communion. I consider myself enlightened, because about two years ago I finally woke up and realised the only reason I prayed and stuff was out of fear of 'hell'. Anyone else have/had this problem with religious parents, and how did you deal with it?

OP: I have a few inkling questions for you.

What knowledge of Biblical texts do you have? Have you read the Bible through, or what is your standing on it. I mean, when I was 16 my knowledge of the Bible was slim to none apart from what brief slithers I had heard about Jesus in primary school.

How did you come to the conclusion that prayer, or anything else you happen to do was only to save you from hell? This seems inconsistent with Christian belief.

How did you arrive to the conclusion that atheism was suddenly better than anything else?

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

How did you arrive to the conclusion that atheism was suddenly better than anything else?

Where are you getting this from?

Atheism has nothing to do with what's better or worse. It's to do with what you actually believe. The OP doesn't believe the religious stuff he has been told is true. What he (or any of us) want to be true is irrelevant.

Stercus Accidit

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: I have a few inkling questions for you.

What knowledge of Biblical texts do you have? Have you read the Bible through, or what is your standing on it. I mean, when I was 16 my knowledge of the Bible was slim to none apart from what brief slithers I had heard about Jesus in primary school.

How did you come to the conclusion that prayer, or anything else you happen to do was only to save you from hell? This seems inconsistent with Christian belief.

How did you arrive to the conclusion that atheism was suddenly better than anything else?

I certainly hope you are up to date with the Tipitaka, qu'ran, bible(oh you are), Torah, Holy Piby, Kojiki, dianetics, Daozang, etc. etc.

Because to not believe in the teachings of each of these is an illogical approach to life if you have not read them. All.

I tend to take the illogical position of boiling all these texts down to the following.

Fluff, basic and kind of good morals, disgracefully inhuman aggression, unverifiable claim about magic.

The awful morals and some decent ones can be taken as opinions, the unverifiable claims though? No matter how many times its written, I can't take them as any more valid than harry potter, no matter how many people unreasonably believe that quidditch is real.

philologos

Stercus and Dades, I'd like the OP to give me an answer I'm just trying to assess how this step from apparent theism to atheism happened, or if it was really something all along, and why the resentment exists. Is it because of the substance of Christianity, or is it because of the role that his parents have had on him coercing him to go to church.

Let's not get petty over semantics. I'm just curious about this whole situation. I'm not making an argument, rather I am trying to find out.

Dades

Jakkass wrote: »

Let's not get petty over semantics.

This isn't about semantics - this is about you reading stuff into the OP's post that wasn't there. By all means grill him on his decision (if it's genuine he should be able to defend it) but don't misrepresent things he said.

philologos

The reason why one subscribes to one view over another is generally because it is more reasonable (which I referred to as better).

Turtwig

Jakkass wrote: »

How did you arrive to the conclusion that atheism was suddenly better than anything else?

A hot blonde chick told me so.:cool:

kev9100

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

I'm a 16 year old atheist, and my parents still force me to go to Mass! They're just your average Irish Catholic, no meat on Ash Wednesday, say your prayers before you go to bed, blah blah etc. Now don't get me wrong, I haven't got a problem with that, but why is it being forced on me? And even when I go to mass, for about two years now, I just sit there, I don't even get Communion. I consider myself enlightened, because about two years ago I finally woke up and realised the only reason I prayed and stuff was out of fear of 'hell'. Anyone else have/had this problem with religious parents, and how did you deal with it?

I was in a similar position a couple of years ago and it was'nt fun. My advice to you would be to calmly talk to your parents and explain your decision. Don't lose your temper or insult their faith, they have a right to chose just as much as you do.

Galvasean

Jakkass wrote: »

How did you arrive to the conclusion that atheism was suddenly better than anything else?

If there's a soul that needs saving you can always count on Jakkass to show up.

mehfesto

To the OP.

I suggest going to mass one more time. Look around. How people there under 18 look any way interested. Most don't believe, but toe the line anyway. It's sad, but as most are not trusted in their home on their own for 30mins a week, they're made go. They don't, no CANT believe, but it's more for show than anything religious these days. But don't toe the line. You've already come to he conclusion that your not a sheep in the flock!

I suggest you hint at it first. It's what I did. You sound like a bright chap and I'd your points are clear and coherant I don't think any right minded person would begrudge you your own beliefs.

panda100

I know exactly where your coming from OP. Really it depends on how open minded your parents are.
Mine are not,they grew up in a differnet generation and just accept what is put infront of them. I once started to explain my atheism to them and my mum just looked so damn worried I decided that there was no need to tell them.

I'm 27 now and still go to mass with them on a Sunday when Im down at home as it makes them happy. Its only an hour a week,my parents are getting old and If my presence at mass makes them feel happy then its really not a big sacrifice on my part. It's preferable to the big arguments that start up when I dig my heels in about not going to mass.
I have my own little amusment on the way home when I ask them what the sermon and readings were about and dsicover they were daydreaming as much as I was

If your parents are open-minded and you are well able to discuss difficult matters like this with them, then I would try and explain your reasons for not attending mass. It really depends on your parents and family situation really.

liamw

panda100 wrote: »

I have my own little amusment on the way home when I ask them what the sermon and readings were about and dsicover they were daydreaming as much as I was

It would be an interesting experiment for the priest to read something like Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT and see if anyone bats an eyelid. Probably not.

Turtwig

panda100 wrote: »

I have my own little amusment on the way home when I ask them what the sermon and readings were about and dsicover they were daydreaming as much as I was

Time for this little gem again...



One of the questions the visting priest inspector would always ask at our school was "What was the gospel about last Sunday?". I'm ashamed (and, I suppose, in an odd geeky way proud) to admit that I always knew the answer.
I invite my fellow atheists to ask this question to your fellow Catholics in the middle of the week (not during Easter obviously enough) and see do they remember? My parents nearly always do; others not so much.

Also reminds me of the time in mass I was daydreaming and starting shaking someone's hand well before I was supposed to. Yet, to the priest's and many others' amazement, at least two whole rows of what we call the "long aisle" joined in before it was copped. I don't know what he said, but the people certainly laughed.

Truley

panda100 wrote: »

I have my own little amusment on the way home when I ask them what the sermon and readings were about and dsicover they were daydreaming as much as I was

Ha, brilliant! When I was a teenager I used to hate going to mass but would go anyway just to keep the peace - not without much winging and complaining mind! One day I was feeling particularly angsty and in the car on the way home asked my parents 'so can you even tell me what the sermon was about today'. Of course neither of them could and I got a reply along the lines of 'what's being said is irrelevant, what's important is that you make the sacrifice to go blah blah' Typical Irish Catlics :rolleyes:
I used to spend the entire time dozing and making up mind games to keep me occupied for what felt like the longest hour of my life. One particular time I was dozing away and the priest came to the end of a speech and I 'woke up' and started clapping! The shame...

PeterIanStaker

Zillah wrote: »

Every young Irish person that refuses to toe the lie for this child abusing, homophobic, sexist, money farming, HIV spreading cult is another nail in the coffin of the Catholic Church.

F*ckin A, man!

strobe

Galvasean wrote: »

If there's a soul that needs saving you can always count on Jakkass to show up.

Ha, he's like the Christian Batman, batarangs in the shape of crucifixes, a spot light that shines the jesus fish into the sky, a Volvo 850 instead of the batmobile......you get the idea.

Tim Robbins

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd like the OP to give me an answer

There have been 500,000 sightings for UFOs since World War II, in the US alone. Must someone refute every single one of the 500,000 sightings to come to the reasonable conclusion that UFOs don't exist? No, of course not.

There have thousands of editions of the Sunday Independant. Must someone read every single one to ascertain it's a cr*p newspaper. No of course not.

So why should someone drag their head through a massive collection of ancient books (i.e. the Bible) when even people who believe the central thesis of those books admit it requires faith?

Daftendirekt

strobe wrote: »

Ha, he's like the Christian Batman, batarangs in the shape of crucifixes, a spot light that shines the jesus fish into the sky, a Volvo 850 instead of the batmobile......you get the idea.

Wha-?

strobe

Daftendirekt wrote: »

Wha-?