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Bibles-for-porn stunt draws crowd at UTSA

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    #32
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    ...so long as he pays Oxfam of course...

    At least some good would come of it then. If this group in the OP were to donate the religious texts to some charity or other who might be able to raise funds by selling them on or whatever then I have no problem with their publicity stunt. If they're simply planning on burning/shredding/binning them, well that's just destruction for destructions sake.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    ...
    You should have a word with my mother. My father is what Oprah would call a "hoarder", he has books all over the house that he has read once or twice but is holding on to them.

    Ha, I bet he's got some great books then. I'm the same, books everywhere :pac: Perhaps that makes me biased on this topic.


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    #33
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    Ha, I bet he's got some great books then. I'm the same, books everywhere :pac: Perhaps that makes me biased on this topic.

    Perhaps :pac:

    I was just trying to clarify if it is all books or just the Bible you hold this position on


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    #34
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    prinz wrote: »
    Actually the FBI has released information that one of the factors linking many of the serial killers in US history is an above normal appetite for pornogrpahy. There was also a study done IIRC about the majority of prison inmates in the US having reported earlier than average exposure to porn.

    Correlation =/= causation.


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    #35
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Correlation =/= causation.

    Well while there may be some truth in it, the problem is that when these reports ultimately end up getting presented in the media they have been fudged some what.

    As anyone who has spend 5 minutes on the Internet knows "pornography" is a term used to describe all sort of stuff.

    Porn can be two people having sex in a "couples" adult video (designed for couples to become aroused by) which has nothing more crazy that two people having normal sex.

    And it can go right the way up to the quite disgusting videos like simulated rape and violence or even actual violence.

    "Pornography" can be a woman rubbing her breasts and looking suggestively into the camera or it can be child porn.

    The idea that these are all one and the same thing is frankly ridiculous.

    I've little trouble imagining that serial killers tend to be attracted to violent pornography in order to fantasize about the violent acts they wish to carry out.

    The problem is when people try and make that out as if that is the same thing a middle age couple trying to get a bit of spark back in their relationship with an adult DVD are watching.


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    #36
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The idea that these are all one and the same thing is frankly ridiculous..

    ..and no one was trying to argue that so it's all good, my point was not against pornography itself per se, more against the attitude that it is harmless fun and would never be abused/misused/harmful to people in their lives.. in the same way as alcohol for instance, yes it can be 'harmless' fun to a majority of people but there are a significant number who succumb to addiction etc.


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    #37
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    Similarly if you equate the acts or characteristics of a person based the sex they enjoy, then what of abstinent priests? Are they just dead inside. No.

    Porn has always been an area of concern for many. As someone who has nothing personal against it, I would worry about children viewing it - nit because they may become homicidal maniacs, but because it may enforce a belief if sexual inadequacy.

    I think it's fine for this group to be handing it out though. Each to their own. But they are not encouraging the growth of murderers un any sense.


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    #38
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    prinz wrote: »
    ..and no one was trying to argue that so it's all good, my point was not against pornography itself per se, more against the attitude that it is harmless fun and would never be abused/misused/harmful to people in their lives.. in the same way as alcohol for instance, yes it can be 'harmless' fun to a majority of people but there are a significant number who succumb to addiction etc.

    Same could be said about religion. Or, infact, almost anything that gives any form of gratification really!


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    #39
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    mehfesto wrote: »
    Same could be said about religion. Or, infact, almost anything that gives any form of gratification really!

    Exactly I agree with you...


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    #40
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    prinz wrote: »
    Exactly I agree with you...

    Ah, my mistake


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    #41
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    ..and no one was trying to argue that so it's all good, my point was not against pornography itself per se, more against the attitude that it is harmless fun and would never be abused/misused/harmful to people in their lives

    But when you say it is not harmless fun what type of pornography are you talking about?


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    #42
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    But when you say it is not harmless fun what type of pornography are you talking about?

    Well when it gets to that stage the type is irrelevant tbh, it's down to the user. Obviously some people are drawn to the disgusting extremes and the centre is relatively softcore, but it can all be harmful depending on the state of mind of the user, in the same way a pint of beer is harmless enough to your average person but to a chronic alcoholic..


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    #43
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    But when you say it is not harmless fun what type of pornography are you talking about?

    Possibly the kind of pornography that is produced and distributed by organised crime. Or the kind where vulnerable women are exploited into degrading themselves for the entertainment of others in order to feed their drug habits. Or the kind of pornography that quite deliberately promotes the 'rape fantasy' (the idea that women really quite enjoy being raped and get sexually turned on during the act).

    Or, of course, the kind of pornography that persistently portrays strangers engaging in casual sexual without using a condom. This kind of pornography, which is produced in the west and widely distributed throughout Asia and Africa, probably contributes much more to the spread of HIV / AIDS than the pronouncements of the Pope when he advises his flock to abstain from both extra marital sex and from contraception.

    And yet we have atheists who try to paint the Pope as the arch-cause of AIDS in Africa while simultaneously trying to portray pornography as harmless fun. Such ideologically motivated inconsistency is IMHO quite breathtaking.


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    #44
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    PDN wrote: »
    And yet we have atheists who try to paint the Pope as the arch-cause of AIDS in Africa while simultaneously trying to portray pornography as harmless fun. Such ideologically motivated inconsistency is IMHO quite breathtaking.

    Ummm, I'm trying to think of some way to respond to that without you giving me an infraction for going off topic

    Perhaps I'll just leave it :rolleyes:


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    #45
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    Well when it gets to that stage the type is irrelevant tbh, it's down to the user. Obviously some people are drawn to the disgusting extremes and the centre is relatively softcore, but it can all be harmful depending on the state of mind of the user, in the same way a pint of beer is harmless enough to your average person but to a chronic alcoholic..

    But a chronic alcoholic gets to be an alcoholic by drinking?

    You seem to be saying that pornography can be harmful to a very very mentally sick person who becomes very very mentally sick independently of pornography?

    Which doesn;t have a lot to do with pornography


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    #46
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    But a chronic alcoholic gets to be an alcoholic by drinking?

    ...and somebody addicted to pornography gets that way by over indulging in pornography to an unhealthy level, regardless of what type of pornography it is.

    People can be addicted. As such it is detrimental to them and those around them and can be a very negative force on their lives. Even 'softcore'.


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    #47
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    ...and somebody addicted to pornography gets that way by over indulging in pornography to an unhealthy level, regardless of what type of pornography it is.

    But that is the bit I don't think there is any proper evidence for.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction

    Alcohol and drugs on the other hand have a physical effect on the body.


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    #48
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wicknight wrote: »
    But that is the bit I don't think there is any proper evidence for.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction

    Alcohol and drugs on the other hand have a physical effect on the body.

    I think you might be confusing physical dependence with addiction.


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    #49
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    But that is the bit I don't think there is any proper evidence for.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_addiction
    Alcohol and drugs on the other hand have a physical effect on the body.

    Witnesses before the Senate Commerce Committee's Science, Technology and Space Subcommittee spared no superlative in their description of the negative effects of pornography...
    Jeffrey Satinover, a psychiatrist and advisor to the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality echoed Layden's concern about the internet and the somatic effects of pornography.
    "Pornography really does, unlike other addictions, biologically cause direct release of the most perfect addictive substance," Satinover said. "That is, it causes masturbation, which causes release of the naturally occurring opioids. It does what heroin can't do, in effect."

    Read More http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2004/11/65772#ixzz0haE3xBsb


    A pornographic psychopharmacological flood yields epinephrine, testosterone, endorphins (endogenous morphine), oxytocin, dopamine, serotonin, phenylethylamine,3 and other pharmacological stimuli.

    3. Candace Pert, cited in Bill Moyer's Healing and the Mind, Doubleday, New York, 1991, p. 177

    In her book published by the Institute of Medicine, Sandra Ackerman notes that epinephrine alone gets the “vertebrate brain” “high” on its own self produced morphine or heroin.4

    4. Sandra Ackerman, Discovering the Brain, Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences, National Academy Press, Washington, D.C., 1992, p. 76-77

    Pornography, designed to alert the procreation instinct to the need to immediately respond, would be especially likely to cause users to self-medicate, kick-starting these endogenous LSD, adrenaline/norepinephrine, morphine-like neurochemicals for a hormonal flood, a “rush” allegedly analogous to the rush attained using various street drugs. 5

    5. Dr. Judith Reisman, The Psychopharmacology of Pictorial Pornography, Ibid., p. 21



    http://www.netnanny.com/blog/entry/id/29

    Both alcohol and drugs have similar affects on the brain's chemistry IIRC, again going off topic. I think most people will agree too much of anything can be bad for you.


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    #50
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Ummm

    The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality thinks that homosexuality can be cured (they used to be call the National Association for Research and Treatment of Homosexuality).

    They are a religious organisation masquerading as a scientific group.

    As for the quotes, I'm not disputing that sexual arosual doesn't produce chemicals in the brain that give people a natural high.

    But so does exercise and eating vegetables.

    What is in dispute is whether this can lead to an addiction. That idea seems to be ideological in nature, promoted by certain groups who view pornography as inherently bad for cultural reasons and then look around for a reason why it is.


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    #51
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality thinks that homosexuality can be cured (they used to be call the National Association for Research and Treatment of Homosexuality)..

    You may notice nothing in what I quoted comes from NARTH. It comes from an advisor to NARTH and a man respected enough in his field to appear before a US State Senate Committee.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    They are a religious organisation masquerading as a scientific group.

    Good on them. However what does this have to do with what I quoted? :confused:.. nice little tangent.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    What is in dispute is whether this can lead to an addiction. That idea seems to be ideological in nature, promoted by certain groups who view pornography as inherently bad for cultural reasons and then look around for a reason why it is.

    Is alcoholism an ideological idea? Certain groups such as?

    Which brings us back to my original point that pornography can be harmful to some people, and has been.


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    #52
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    You may notice nothing in what I quoted comes from NARTH. It comes from an advisor to NARTH and a man respected enough in his field to appear before a US State Senate Committee.

    Good on them. However what does this have to do with what I quoted? :confused:.. nice little tangent.

    Ok, let me be more specific

    Jeffrey Satinover (who is closely associated with NARTH, a group that believes homosexuality can be cured) believes that homosexuality can be cured.

    His work in "curing" homosexuals has been roundly criticized as having little scientific basis, and seems based on religious ideology rather than scientific reality.

    Just like NARTH then, strange they have him as an advisor ...
    prinz wrote: »
    Is alcoholism an ideological idea? Certain groups such as?
    The conservative religious movement in America, a movement that both NARTH and Jeffrey Satinover are active in.
    prinz wrote: »
    Which brings us back to my original point that pornography can be harmful to some people, and has been.

    And it brings me back to my original point, that those who seems to be claiming this appear to have a religious agenda and very little science to back it up.


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    #53
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    His work in "curing" homosexuals has been roundly criticized as having little scientific basis, and seems based on religious ideology rather than scientific reality.

    You'd swear it was a forced treatment or something :rolleyes: it's voluntary.. if people want help with something why shouldn't that be provided? Is there a scientific basis that getting your nose fixed boosts self confidence?
    Wicknight wrote: »
    And it brings me back to my original point, that those who seems to be claiming this appear to have a religious agenda and very little science to back it up.

    Is alcoholism an ideological idea?


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    #54
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    You'd swear it was a forced treatment or something :rolleyes: it's voluntary.. if people want help with something why shouldn't that be provided? Is there a scientific basis that getting your nose fixed boosts self confidence?

    Well I could get into that but I think it is some what off topic. My point was simply that I'm much less inclined to take what he says about pornography seriously given his some what out there ideas on homosexuality. He seems to have a strong religious agenda.
    prinz wrote: »
    Is alcoholism an ideological idea?
    No. Did I give the impression it was? I was referring to pornography addiction.


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    #55
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    No. Did I give the impression it was? I was referring to pornography addiction.

    So what is the science behind alcohol addiction that doesn't exist for pornography addiction?


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    #56
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    prinz wrote: »
    Actually I think PDN posted a great link before to an audio file of one man's experiences. I suggest you check it out.

    This is the talk you were talking about, I believe. (Download link available at the top right hand corner of the screen.) Of course, the the talk doesn't show the overall effects that porn has - maybe it is a individual thing - but it does afford two people who were once at the extremes of the porn industry and porn usage the chance to share their jaw dropping and so very shocking stories.


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    #57
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    prinz wrote: »
    So what is the science behind alcohol addiction that doesn't exist for pornography addiction?

    I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but alcohol addiction has been identified as a form of dependence. Pornography addiction hasn't.


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    #58
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Wicknight wrote: »

    And it brings me back to my original point, that those who seems to be claiming this appear to have a religious agenda


    Possibly, but this is the Christianity forum, after all.

    You should listen to the talk. I think it both supports and contradicts certain assertions you have made.


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    #59
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Possibly, but this is the Christianity forum, after all.

    True, and if people want to claim there is a religious/theological reason why porn is bad I've no issue with that.

    It is only when people try to use some what flaky scientific groundings to push a religious agenda that this needs to be questioned.
    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You should listen to the talk. I think it both supports and contradicts certain assertions you have made.

    I will when I get a chance, but anecdotal stories of his experiences talking to people about pornography are rather here nor there. If he is supporting or contradicting my assertions that doesn't matter unless he can back it up.


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    #60
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but alcohol addiction has been identified as a form of dependence. Pornography addiction hasn't.

    So where is the science behind dependancy? Both seem to exhibit a similar chemical reaction in the brain, but by your standards there is no science behind pornography addiction therefore it is an ideological concept dreamt up by people with a predisposition against porn.

    So where can you show me how alcohol addiction is not an ideological concept thought up by groups with an anti-alcohol agenda?
    The National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and The American Society of Addiction Medicine define alcoholism as "a primary, chronic disease characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking.

    People will confess to exhibiting all of the above in relation to pornography abuse.. see Fanny's link for one man's testimony.
    The DSM-IV (the dominant diagnostic manual in psychiatry and psychology) defines alcohol abuse as repeated use despite recurrent adverse consequences.[8] It further defines alcohol dependence as alcohol abuse combined with tolerance, withdrawal, and an uncontrollable drive to drink

    Again people addicted to pornography will comply with this definition. The frequent threads on the PI forum on this site will show how it affects some people/relationships etc.


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    #61
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Wicknight wrote: »
    It is only when people try to use some what flaky scientific groundings to push a religious agenda that this needs to be questioned.... If he is supporting or contradicting my assertions that doesn't matter unless he can back it up.

    How about you back up your claim that pornography addiction/ dependancy is based on flaky scientific groundings covering up a religious agenda but alcohol dependancy is not?


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