So Israel? Good or not?

Wit the recent assasination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. Do we think the Israeli state is right in how they act in the middle-east? Is their foreign policy exasperating problems in the middle-east or if they were to extend the diplomatic olive branch, would they achieve their goals quicker?

Or do they want to prove that they are superior to other nations in the middle east through military strength due to past grievances?

OutlawPete

Complex situation is as complex as complex can get.

x PyRo

Damnit, why did i open this thread ?.

You've confused my little brain with politics!

I understand what you are saying OutlawPete. But , are they destabilising the region through their actions leading to greater worldwide problems? I mean to say would the gulf between the western world and the eastern world be the same if the Israeli state had not been created in the 40's?

CHD

Israel sucks balls tbh

OutlawPete

Deleted User wrote: »

I understand what you are saying OutlawPete. But , are they destabilising the region through their actions leading to greater worldwide problems? I mean to say would the gulf between the western world and the eastern world be the same if the Israeli state had not been created in the 40's?

Honestly, out of all the issues I have ever discussed, this situation is the toughest to call. I used to be very pro Palestine and saw Israel as a bully for a long time but the more I learn, the less I realise I know on the issue. It makes our own situation, look positively simple in comparison.

Here's a thread where some fine thinking folks are discussing it, including an ex soldier:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055829255&highlight=israel

Why cause so much trouble to kill somebody in the grand scheme of things was probably a very small fish?

sdanseo

To be honest I don't care that they assasinated a terrorist. I care that they used my countrymen's passports to do it. I also care that because of the actions of few, they have subjected 1.5 million people to a modern-day Warsaw. It's an international disgrace but as usual, because they're a "developed" country (with, coincidentally, fúck all oil, natural resources or just about anything useful really unless you're a devout christian), nobody is willing to do anything about it. Even Mícheál Martin tied his tongue.

Wars have started over less.

OutlawPete

sdonn wrote: »

nobody is willing to do anything about it. Even Mícheál Martin tied his tongue.

Apart from Carrickmacross that is .. :cool:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8544642.stm

m@cc@

Love the thread title, consise and to the point. In reply to the question, I think at this stage bad. But they should have been reined in by the Western alliance years ago.

Jazzy

they're a medium

brendansmith

Theyre the best.

m@cc@

OutlawPete wrote: »

Apart from Carrickmacross that is .. :cool:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8544642.stm

'But a local councillor defended the town's decision, saying he hoped it would send a serious message to Israel.'


Ah holy ****, that's priceless.

Caoimhín

m@cc@ wrote: »

'But a local councillor defended the town's decision, saying he hoped it would send a serious message to Israel.'
.

Thats gas, it reminds me of the the statement in the Skibbereen Eagle at the turn of the last century.

It reads as follows...

"The Skibbereen Eagle has got its eye both upon Lord Palmerston and on the Emperor of Russia." This terrible warning has elevated the little insignificant town of Skibbereen, in the southwest coast of Ireland, quite into a Lilliputian pre-eminence . Beware, beware, ye statesmen, emperors, and thrones, for the Skibbereen Eagle has its eye upon you!"

Joey the lips

Tbh I am more a supporter of the palestenians. Its not because I favor them its based on the facts.

Everybody needs to draw a line in the sand somewhere I would feel. The UN did that. They said "Right no more building beyond this point" Did Israel listen to this.... No. So by mind mind the Isrealies are antogonistic in all of this. There is more but this is the jist.

Having stated my position I do also agree that the palastinians do themselves no favors in how they are portrayed in the media.

The americans do themselves no favors when in one hand they are waveing an olive branch in the moddle east and in the other they are sending millions in arms to Isreal.


Every time a country in the middle east gets a new weapon it threatens to blow the sh1t out of isreal. Its like the teacher use to say in school.... Everyone is wrong except you.... Well they cant be all wrong.

Lanaier

It's a complex issue, and there are grievances on both sides.

From limited personal experience:
I tend to favor Israeli's, as those I have met have been friendly and personable.
In contrast, the Palestinians I have met have been pretty closed-off....not unfriendly, but not really open to conversation with "outsiders" either.
I don't hold it against them, but it is what it is.

As far as the situation between these two countries go, it's impossible to judge.

One thing I do know though, Israelis may have done some questionable things, but they sure as hell never strapped any explosives to their children and used them as weapons.

That's just plain messed up, abhorrent and unnatural.
Many ethnic groups have been on the edge of desperation throughout history without resorting to this technique.

smokingman

I'm with Cartman on this...

yogy

Israel should give the land on which their State is built back to the people it belongs and **** off back to North Africa, Poland, Germany, Ukraine and whatever other countries they came from. Much more pro-active and peaceful move than bombing Palestinian schools, hospitals etc. and assassinating politicians.

Obviously this will never happen so let's just hope Iran keep them on their toes..

yogy

Lanaier wrote: »

I tend to favor Israeli's, as those I have met have been friendly and personable.

You should do some backpacking. They are the most hated race you will ever meet. After doing their service they **** off travelling to cheap countries (India, SE Asia, South America etc). They stay in Israeli hostels, get stoned all day to forget about the service they had to do, haggle and fight to save a few sheckels and do not mix with any other races....Horrible, horrible people to come across...


(There are exceptions to this gross generalisation of course!)

Jumpy

Caoimhín wrote: »

Thats gas, it reminds me of the the statement in the Skibbereen Eagle at the turn of the last century.

It reads as follows...

"The Skibbereen Eagle has got its eye both upon Lord Palmerston and on the Emperor of Russia." This terrible warning has elevated the little insignificant town of Skibbereen, in the southwest coast of Ireland, quite into a Lilliputian pre-eminence . Beware, beware, ye statesmen, emperors, and thrones, for the Skibbereen Eagle has its eye upon you!"

PITT THE ELDER!

Lanaier

@yogy:

I have done some backpacking, and you're not the first person to throw this observation my way.

Getting stoned all day and being a bit scabby with the sheckles is hardly the worst description I could level at a nationality.

As for staying in Israeli hotels....I don't see the difference between them and anyone else.
I'm sure many of you have lived abroad and noticed that Irish expats tend to stick to the Irish pub and hang out with other Irish.

Still, many people seem to share your disdain for Israeli backpackers

neilthefunkeone

Those damn Israelies stole my job.... Seriously!!!

MaybeLogic

In short, I think the Israelis' policy towards Palestinians is pretty disgusting and has been since the conception of the state and I tend to sympathise with the oppressed. Continually using their oppression under the Nazis is not a valid excuse. Nor is using a fictional book to back their claims.

Lanaier

MaybeLogic wrote: »

Continually using their oppression under the Nazis is not a valid excuse.

They use this as an excuse?
Link?

Guess I'm pretty out of the loop about these things.

r3nu4l

OutlawPete wrote: »

Honestly, out of all the issues I have ever discussed, this situation is the toughest to call.

Very true.

I used to be very pro Palestine and saw Israel as a bully for a long time but the more I learn, the less I realise I know on the issue.

Funnily enough, Bob Shephard, an ex-SAS man who worked for years as a private military contractor said in his book that he used to be totally pro-Israel, looking at the Palestinians as nothing more than terrorists but that his experiences of the Isaeli army as a civilian totally changed his viewpoint. As a military man he totally respected the Israeli army but as a civilian he saw them in a totally different light and was treated totally differently by them.
He himself said the same thing as you, as time goes on and he learns more, he realises how little he actually knows.

yogy

Lanaier wrote: »

@yogy:

I have done some backpacking, and you're not the first person to throw this observation my way.

Getting stoned all day and being a bit scabby with the sheckles is hardly the worst description I could level at a nationality.

As for staying in Israeli hotels....I don't see the difference between them and anyone else.
I'm sure many of you have lived abroad and noticed that Irish expats tend to stick to the Irish pub and hang out with other Irish.

Still, many people seem to share your disdain for Israeli backpackers

Irish may hang out together but also along with any other nationalities that are willing to drink with or listen to them. Do Irish people actually hang out in Irish pubs abroad? I have never done. I think maybe in the likes of Oz perhaps where there are ex-pat communities but these are not backpackers.

In the likes of Bolivia and Peru many tour agencies refuse to accept Israelis because they want to book a trek for 15 of them, demand a huge discounts and break the hearts of the guide by constantly abusing and complaining about them. Unfortunately this has led to agencies willing to cater for Israelis only...

Again I am talking about the vast majority here, I have met some very decent Israelis travelling (i.e.those who are disgusted by the others behaviour and avoid them like the plague)

But this has nothing to do with Israel's foreign policy, that's a whole different reason to despise them..

Lanaier

yogy wrote: »

Irish may hang out together but also along with any other nationalities that are willing to drink with or listen to them. Do Irish people actually hang out in Irish pubs abroad? I have never done. I think maybe in the likes of Oz perhaps where there are ex-pat communities but these are not backpackers.

In the likes of Bolivia and Peru many tour agencies refuse to accept Israelis because they want to book a trek for 15 of them, demand a huge discounts and break the hearts of the guide by constantly abusing and complaining about them. Unfortunately this has led to agencies willing to cater for Israelis only...

Again I am talking about the vast majority here, I have met some very decent Israelis travelling (i.e.those who are disgusted by the others behaviour and avoid them like the plague)

But this has nothing to do with Israel's foreign policy, this is a whole different reason to despise them..

Yes, here in Beijing the Irish crowd definitely stick to the Irish bars, not sure why they came here myself

You're talking about the vast majority of Israeli's?
Hmm, well perhaps there is some truth to it, and I'm not an expert but I cant bring myself to agree with that I'm afraid.
There is a lowest common denominator of any countries tourists.

I've seen and heard of some terrible behavior by Irish tourists, same for British tourists.
No doubt there is someone is giving the same excuse for despising the Brits and also saying that they are "talking about the vast majority" due to the behavior of their tourists and their countries foreign policy.

I'm not saying your views are unfounded, just that I'd tend to explore the issue further before coming to the same conclusion.

Anyway you're right, this is off topic.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Say what you like, but THIS IS WHY THE MIDDLE EAST & AFRICA ARE IN DEEP SHIT.

Yogy as for their behaviour travelling, we all have our quirks - just wait until summer arrives and we're over run with Italian & Spanish students and posts on boards.ie about their behaviour!.

As now spending on their travels etc (Israeli's) - here's another, back to the Spanish & Italians. When I was working in Templebar it was door policy in a lot of bar's and clubs to allow Spanish & Italians in mid week when things were quiet but to deny them access on Friday & Saturday nights, why?... Because they wouldn't spend a penny, and its not a joke when people say they've seen 10 or 15 Spaniards sit around one pint of beer with straws!.

As for Paddy the Pig!.. Well we've hardly covered ourselves in glory on our travels either.

wes

Going to have to disagree with people here, the situation is actually pretty simple. Its about land, and all the other stuff is basically bull****, that people use to give the situation some sort of mystique, that it is some how different than other colonial occupations. The simple fact is that it isn't really different, and I would say the situation, isn't a million miles away from Apartheid South Africa.

Basically, once you realise that 2000 year old land claims are utter nonsense, and have about as much validity, as any of us on here claiming parts of Africa (seeing as all Humans came from there), then the situation becomes very simple. A group of Europeans went to another country, kicked off the people living there from there homes, and the those people took the whole thing in a bad way, and now we have conflict. This kind of thing has been happening for centuries, its not complicated, and it isn't unique, its actually really simple.

**EDIT**
As for whether Israel is good or not. Well, if they stuck to there borders, and didn't insist on stealing more land, and escalating a conflict about land, then they might actually have a chance at peace, which btw they have achieved with both Egypt and Jordan, and the Arab league offered full recognition to Israel, if they went back to the 1967 borders, but Israel seems to still be trying to achieve the greater Israel nonsense. So any peace seems deader than a door nail at this point, and the 2 state solution seems next to impossible due to colonization of the West Bank. So there actions are certainly making conflict more likely.

As for the Palestinians, well in the West Bank, they have actually bent over backwards with working with Israel to hunt down terrorists, and yet more of there land is stolen.

As for Hamas, they certainly are a shower of idiots, but when Israel collectively punished 1.5 million people, in a massive act of state terrorism, which is supported by the West, they are in no position to say they are better.
**END EDIT**

Bodhidharma

The Israeli government treat every other nation, except the US, badly. They treat their negihbours like vermin and organisations like the EU and UN like idiots.

They are bad, and making things worse.

neil_hosey

Deleted User wrote: »

Why cause so much trouble to kill somebody in the grand scheme of things was probably a very small fish?

to give 2 fingers to every emeny of israel in the world and say that no matter where you are, who you are, we will get you if we want, and fúck what the international community think about us...

they're a shower of wánk-bags with may too much firepower and arrogance..

arybvtcw0eolkf

Have to agree with Wes.

History in a nutshell.

yogy

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

Say what you like, but THIS IS WHY THE MIDDLE EAST & AFRICA ARE IN DEEP SHIT.

Yogy as for their behaviour travelling, we all have our quirks - just wait until summer arrives and we're over run with Italian & Spanish students and posts on boards.ie about their behaviour!.

As now spending on their travels etc (Israeli's) - here's another, back to the Spanish & Italians. When I was working in Templebar it was door policy in a lot of bar's and clubs to allow Spanish & Italians in mid week when things were quiet but to deny them access on Friday & Saturday nights, why?... Because they wouldn't spend a penny, and its not a joke when people say they've seen 10 or 15 Spaniards sit around one pint of beer with straws!.

As for Paddy the Pig!.. Well we've hardly covered ourselves in glory on our travels either.

Look I was just responding to Lanaier comment that they were a friendly and personable race. This has nothing to with the OPs question.

The fact that they are tight as **** and so are young Spanish and Italians has nothing to do with them being a horrible race. Who cares if they are tight? Who cares if the Spanish kids don't piss all their money away. I was talking about how they have no interest in mixing with other races and completely abuse the people of the lands they visit.

You would be surprised how good a stamp the Irish nationality is when backpacking. I'm not talking about Oz where many go to live in Irish ghettos and wear their county colours to the Irish pub every Sunday. **** that. I've no doubt alot of bad rep has been created. I'm talking about backpacking in the likes of India, Asia and South America where most Israelis go after their service..

arybvtcw0eolkf

Bodhidharma wrote: »

The Israeli government treat every other nation, except the US, badly. They treat their negihbours like vermin and organisations like the EU and UN like idiots.

They are bad, and making things worse.

Your probably blinded by hatred to bother looking, but here's a little more for you..

CLICK HERE.

yogy

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

Have to agree with Wes.

History in a nutshell.

That's just taken straight out of an Israeli schoolbook. Completely biased ****e.

meditraitor

Isreal, Good or not. . . . ?

In their short history so far; BAD, more than BAD, downright savages. Ignorant religious nuts, worse than the nuts they fight/slaughter in my opinion.

arybvtcw0eolkf

yogy wrote: »

That's just taken straight out of an Israeli schoolbook. Completely biased ****e.

So you'd rather we re-write history to suit you?.

And reading your posts and your attitude to Israeli's, you could be talking about rats - so its a little tongue in cheek for you harp on about anything being biased.

arybvtcw0eolkf

meditraitor wrote: »

Isreal, Good or not. . . . ?

In their short history so far; BAD, more than BAD, downright savages. Ignorant religious nuts, worse than the nuts they fight/slaughter in my opinion.

We're still talking about Israeli's right?.

meditraitor

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

We're still talking about Israeli's right?.

Isreal, read the title Maki......

The Saint

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

Have to agree with Wes.

History in a nutshell.

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
Thanks for the chuckle.

arybvtcw0eolkf

The Saint wrote: »

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:
Thanks for the chuckle.

Stop trying to lick arse, your not getting back into my facebook!.

super_furry

Israel - So hot: ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''ll'''''' So not!

Time to shape up Israel.

wes

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

Have to agree with Wes.

History in a nutshell.

As a general rule, I don't get my history from badly made flash presentations.

I do love the start, its about as irrelevant as it gets, because the land mass of various countries doesn't matter. The Palestinians are a unique people (which racist Zionists deny) who had there small bit of this planet stolen from them by a group of lunatic Europeans. I fail to see the relevance of the size of Egypt in this matter.

Secondly, the whole mess started in the late 19th century with the arrival of Zionist colonists and not with the British mandate. So another fail from you "source". Also, the British had no right to give away land that didn't belong to them, but as we know they had a habit of doing that, and we have been on the recieving end of the British empires utter idocy.

Thirdly, general Assembly resolutions are not binding. Basically, instead of talking to there neighbours, Israel declared independence, which to most people is an act of war, and kicked off the conflict, and then enacted a plan to ethnically cleanse the indigenous populace, which you can read about in:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palesinte By Illan Pappe

The ethnic cleansing of Palestine, is a well established fact at this point, and all the Zionist denialism in the world, won't change it. Thirdly the Mufti of Jersualem, was not a political leader, and was appointed by the British, but Zionists like to make him out to be a lot more than he really is. Also, the Palestinians, were not encouraged to leave by other Arab states, Zionists launched a campaign of murder and terror to drive them from there homes, which is all well documented by Israels own archives of all places.

Also, I find it funny that Palestinians are held responsible for Jews being ethnically cleansed by other states, which btw happened years after the Nakba in most cases, but let not let facts get in away of Zionists nonsense.

Now, I could got throught the entire flash presentation, but I think I have shown most of it to be utter nonsense as it is. Filled with plenty of racist Zionist nonsense, that has long ago shown to be untrue.

wes

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

Your probably blinded by hatred to bother looking, but here's a little more for you..

Its interesting that Israel is creating a Humanitarian disaster in Gaza as we speak. Its unfortunate for your position that people won't forget Israel murderous outrages and state terrorism.

reprazant

meditraitor wrote: »

Isreal, Good or not. . . . ?

In their short history so far; BAD, more than BAD, downright savages. Ignorant religious nuts, worse than the nuts they fight/slaughter in my opinion.

Really?

Well, personally, I would much rather live in Israel with its 'Ignorant religious nuts' than any of the countries around it.

But then again, I guess I like democracy, free speech, etc. :rolleyes:

wes

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

So you'd rather we re-write history to suit you?.

Well, you see there is no need to re-write anything at all, but there is a need to point out when someone is wrong, and your flash animation is pretty wrong.

Dyr

On one hand all they're surrounded by nutjobs who want to wipe them out.
On the other hand, they appear to be f***in ****.
It's a tough call.

I'd be up for them if they stopped expecting uncle Sam to bankroll their shenanigans while bringing the US nothing but grief, like some international equivalent of ross o'carroll-kelly.

arybvtcw0eolkf

wes wrote: »

Its interesting that Israel is creating a Humanitarian disaster in Gaza as we speak.

Nope, Hamas is creating a humanitarian disaster in Gaza as we speak.

Kev_ps3

Probably one of the most evil/bad country's in the world. Not as bad as the UK or USA though.

The Saint

Baylor Damp Senior wrote: »

Stop trying to lick arse, your not getting back into my facebook!.

:mad:

The Saint

Bambi wrote: »

On one hand all they're surrounded by nutjobs who want to wipe them out.

Every Arab country has repeatedly offered full peace and normalisation or relations with Israel for a withdrawl to its legal borders. This has repeatedly been ignored.