Spirit of Ireland moves ahead

NRA's murphaph

Some of the risks:
NIMBYs get their way.
Energy prices go too low. (But then the economies of the world would prosper)
Wind speeds slow due to changes in Gulf stream, global warming.
Steorn Orbo.
Mismanagement.
Dam breaks.

Capt'n Midnight

NRA's murphaph wrote: »

Some of the risks:
NIMBYs get their way.
Energy prices go too low. (But then the economies of the world would prosper)
Wind speeds slow due to changes in Gulf stream, global warming.
Steorn Orbo.
Mismanagement.
Dam breaks.

NIMBy's - recession is the best time to do this
Energy prices if only
Weather - don't think we get less wind in most scenarios, also we use wave/tidal too
Orbo :rolleyes:

Mismanagement, ESB/ESBI have been fairly OK so far, it's them boyo's down in Leinster house you need to keep an eye on
Dam Breaks - bigger dams tend to have better safety records , in most areas the run off are will be to the sea, no idea if any towns or villages in the way. If Poulaphouca goes then a lot of Dubs will be unhappy, the recent floods in Cork show that there are a lot of people below dams already , in theory if the new dams are good enough then we might not need to keep as much water behind the others.

penguin2010

luohaoran,


I agree with you in the sense that if someone wishes to invest, they take the full risk that their investment may disappear without trace.

Unfortunately, in Ireland we have some strange anomalies whereby bad or plain stupid investments are bailed out by the State sector. We also have had some extremely poor and short sighted decisions made at national level regarding state spending and subsidies: the tax breaks for hotels and holiday homes being one example.

Therefore it is important that any proposal to lob (borrowed) public money into SoI, is evaluated in a very wide context which includes societal benefits and costs, and other infrastructural investment options.


"1. Energy independence is not achievable, if you take it to mean 0% imports.
Perhaps though it makes more sense to think of energy independence as safeguarding our country from sudden fluctuations in energy costs, or indeed significant medium to long term increases."

I would use a different word to describe this!!

"With that idea in mind, I would suggest that your calculations are sufficiently correct and I agree that we probably need up to about five 4km*4km reservoirs, to offer up to a week of backup for no wind conditions. This would significantly reduce our susceptibility to international energy prices. The more resevoirs we build the less likely we are to have to import during no wind conditions. However, each subsequent resevoir is going to be less financially viable. "

I would agree with that too, and apply the same qualifier to wind farm expansion.


2. I wouldn't worry too much about the salt, sure it will not be good for the land that suddenly finds itself next to the sea, but SoI have said the valleys in the short list are of little arable value. (and in perspective , its irrelevant)

As indicated in earlier posts, I was simply pointing out that all possible benefits and negative outcomes should be assessed.

penguin2010

Capt,

Yes salt can be a fertiliser (albeit in extremely limited quantities) but if you study the development of human agriculture you will quickly find that the build up of salt on agricultural land was a key factor in the demise of many if not most of the earlier civilisations, and is currently a massive problem in Egypt, Pakistan and a host of other countries.

Wouldn't you agree its always best to carry out a full environmental assessment in advance of concluding that any given impact is negligible?

Again, human history is full of examples of stupidity-driven projects, whereby far reaching impacts were not acknowledged until it was too late. The precautionary principal should always apply.

gizmo555

I don't know if it's part of the SoI plan, but would it be economically feasible to buy cheap off-peak electricity from Europe via interconnectors to fill their reservoirs overnight during periods of no wind? This is exactly what Turlough Hill is used for at present, after all. It would just involve scaling up from a national to an international level.

gizmo555

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

People seem to forget that that before July 19th 12,000 BC much of the country was covered in glaciers . . .

What happened on July 19th, 12,000 BC?

penguin2010

NRA's murphaph,

The main risk is that huge amounts of public money will be wasted in something that will deliver little in the way of benefits.

SoI has been very coy about the exact location of the proposed facilities, even though these must be clearly known at this stage.

Equally, while the website is an imaginative palette of regurgitated and largely inconsequential information, as far as I can see there is no actual figure of the usable volume of the lakes, hence all the speculation as to the actual size.

If this was a school science project that I was assessing, I'd give encouragement (for imagination) but would point to the lack of detail as something to work on.

NRA's murphaph

gizmo555 wrote: »

I don't know if it's part of the SoI plan, but would it be economically feasible to buy cheap off-peak electricity from Europe via interconnectors to fill their reservoirs overnight during periods of no wind? This is exactly what Turlough Hill is used for at present, after all. It would just involve scaling up from a national to an international level.

To gizmo's point, isn't the interconnectors with the UK & Europe which is what will really make this work. During low or no wind periods, buy cheap electricity at off-peak times from Europe to fill the reservoirs. This load balances the efficient European plants. Also due to the 1 to 2 hours offset between the peaks in usage between Denmark and Ireland windfarms and the fact that the weather systems usually reach Denmark a day later will tend to reduce the amount of time that there is no wind at both locations. It would be interesting to see the wind data overlaid.

Does anyone know if reverse pumping could be used at the Ardnacrusha hydro plant (I'm not sure how big the "lower" reservoir capacity is)?

Capt'n Midnight

gizmo555 wrote: »

What happened on July 19th, 12,000 BC?

Ted: Any idea why July 19th should be so important?
Dougal: Would that be the day the Ice Age ended?
Ted: No Dougal, we can't be that precise about the Ice Age.
Dougal: I'll look it up in the diary.
(Looks up diary)
Dougal: July 19th. On this day, Galway liberated from Indians. Marathon becomes Snickers. Aha, Ted: Ice Age ends.

Capt'n Midnight

penguin2010 wrote: »

Capt,

Yes salt can be a fertiliser (albeit in extremely limited quantities)

it's not a fertilizer it just releases other minerals, and once they are gone it's not much use.
Planting mangroves that like salt is one option

The precautionary principal should always apply.

it should apply in cases of unknowns,
shouldn't need to be applied where factors are known

environmental studies will be undergone anyway on projects of this size , the point I'm trying to make is that the environments aren't permanent. Also the benefits from reduced environmental impact of other power stations have to be taken into account too.

Rigor Mortis

Environments may not be permanent but i think it is best practice to let them evolve as opposed to making such a radical intervention.

That said there will be an EIS to determine all of this

Capt'n Midnight

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

Environments may not be permanent but i think it is best practice to let them evolve as opposed to making such a radical intervention.

That said there will be an EIS to determine all of this

Very little of our environment is natural. The whole country should be covered in woodland. Even the Aran islands used to be covered in trees before we chopped them down. Ceide fields in Sligo, Newgrange show that the environment here has massively been affected for many thousands of years. We don't have wolves or bears, we have cats and dogs and many other non-native species, most of our woodlands are non-native.

There will be an EIS, and like I said it should also include the benefits. Yes it will have some negative impacts on the locality. Then again we've drained so many wetlands and small lakes in the last century that we would still be drier afterwards. The Shannon basin used to be a seasonal lake. Most of the midland bogs correspond to a prehistoric lake.

Of course if the EIS finds that the area is unique then we have a problem, but there are plenty of other sites.

But we live in a country where putting a motorway though Tara, building on Wood Quay and mining Crogh Patrick for Gold ( pick your poison - cyanide or mercury ? ) are all possible as is building an incinerator that is uneconomic.

Rigor Mortis

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Very little of our environment is natural. The whole country should be covered in woodland. Even the Aran islands used to be covered in trees before we chopped them down. Ceide fields in Sligo, Newgrange show that the environment here has massively been affected for many thousands of years. We don't have wolves or bears, we have cats and dogs and many other non-native species, most of our woodlands are non-native.

There will be an EIS, and like I said it should also include the benefits. Yes it will have some negative impacts on the locality. Then again we've drained so many wetlands and small lakes in the last century that we would still be drier afterwards. The Shannon basin used to be a seasonal lake. Most of the midland bogs correspond to a prehistoric lake.

Of course if the EIS finds that the area is unique then we have a problem, but there are plenty of other sites.

But we live in a country where putting a motorway though Tara, building on Wood Quay and mining Crogh Patrick for Gold ( pick your poison - cyanide or mercury ? ) are all possible as is building an incinerator that is uneconomic.

Dont get me wrong, im not against the SOI proposal although i think it has been gone about in a somewhat strange manner in terms of time delay on information etc. I like the broad idea, i dont know if it will work, i dont know if it will make economic sense (economic sense should include benefits such as security of pricing which will play in its favour), i have some real doubts about its environmental merits, but like many other people i would like to be convinced of its merits.

Im a little worried whenever anyone quotes tara, croagh patrick or wood quay as an example of why their planning app is good enough or environmental enough. Im sure there are better cases can be made and you will lose the comms argument if you go that line. Many of the other changes you references were evolutions, not overnight changes which is the very point i was making

The EIS should absolutely include the benefits, mind you any reputable EIS will include the benefits, so i wouldnt worry about that.

Jim Martin

Whilst not, apparently, connected with the 'Spirit of Ireland' project, this is a hydro-electric scheme. This from the 'Burrenbeo' website:

"Burren Energy - Controversial new proposal to be launched in Ballyvaughan
A new energy company, Organic Power, based in Skibbereen, Co. Cork www.organicpower.ie are proposing a major seawater-pumped hydroelectric energy storage scheme for the Burren to be located at Gleninagh mountain close to the village of Ballyvaughan. According to a brochure circulated by the group, the proposal seeks to use surplus energy from wind generation to pump sea water to a reservoir on the summit plateau of Gleninagh Mountain. Power will then be generated by running the sea water down to sub-sea turbines to be sited off Murrough. A public meeting has been convened in Ballyvaughan May 5th at 8pm in the Burren Coast Hotel by the Ballyvaughan Community Group where Maurice McCarthy of Organic Power proposes to unveil its plans. Let us know what you think of this proposal on trust@burrenbeo.com"

banshee_bones

I attended the SoI lecture in October in the RDS and they put on a good show but personally im not convinced! It seems a bit too easy. . . and they sidestepped alot of the questions at the Q&A session afterwards.

whatisayis

The earthquake in Clare recently really shows that we do not know enough about the structure of the land in Ireland. It is well known about the instability of peat but this earthquake is another cause for concern.

The Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies (DIAS) says Thursday night’s earthquake in County Clare has forced geologists to re-evaluate the West of Ireland’s geology.
http://www.clareherald.com/local-news/environment/1323-clare-earthquake-results-in-west-of-ireland-geology-shake-up.html