What have you/we/the universe learned this weekend?

anonymous_joe

After the... unpleasantness... of Paris (Irish lads get fcuked in city of love?) we move on to this, the sheer unadulterated joy of beating the English.

What makes me curious is whether we've actually learned anything of note this weekend.

The first thing I'd say isn't even about Ireland. Wales have not gone away. Off form both at club and international level, they've got an abundance of talent. I'd hesitantly suggest that Gatland might be approaching a time when he needs to go. Certainly, Wales either need to keep him, or get rid of him in time for a summer tour, autumn series and a 6 Nations before a World Cup.

Watching England, the only thing to learn was that Wilkinson really is struggling without someone offering him direction. He's not the out-half to unleash a backline, while England's pack is looking heavy, lazy and ineffective, married to a backline strangled by a lack of confidence and talent.

As for us, there were two lessons in my mind.

First was an obvious one - the breakdown is still key. We didn't do much, but we dominated the breakdown, slowed their ball to a trickle, making their attacking play nigh on useless, and had the capacity to launch our own attacks at a speed far beyond what the English could bring to bear.

The other one was this - in Sexton and O'Gara, we've two different out-halves, who, if used in tandem, give us far far far more tactical depth than we've ever had before. Using both situationally could allow Ireland to reach heights we've seldom seen before. Certainly, Kidney's handling of the pair was masterful this weekend.

As a final aside, one other thing I've learned (again) is that Kidney knows a lot more than I do about rugby. :pac:

thomond2006

I can't predict results for shít.

Wilkinson is not England's problem, the outside backs are.

France have a lot to prove, the potential is certainly there though. For their high standards, their performance against Wales was disappointing.

Wales need to realise that a match begins in the first half, not the second. They really need their talisman Mike Phillips back. Shane Williams is probably the most dangerous player in the world in a one-on-one situation.

Italy are great.

Dylan Hartley must have gotten lessons from Denis Fogarty on lineout throwing.

James Haskell is very overrated. When England are under the cosh, he disappears.

Harinordoquy and Danny Care are putting their hands up for the player of the tournament accolade.

Whoever chose Dan Parks as MOTM this weekend needs to go to Specsavers. Seriously.

Ireland beat England Martin Johnson. Happy Days.

profitius

We've not learned much about Ireland. The only thing would probably be that John Hayes is starting to look his age and they still lack belief when playing France.


Scotland do their best to throe away games.


Italy and England (not forgetting Argentina) are the dullest teams on the planet but theres nothing new there.

Morf

profitius wrote: »

We've not learned much about Ireland. The only thing would probably be that John Hayes is starting to look his age and they still lack belief when playing France.


Scotland do their best to throe away games.


Italy and England (not forgetting Argentina) are the dullest teams on the planet but theres nothing new there.

That's hardly a true statement after how they went about things against Scotland this weekend!

Podge_irl

I still don't like the way Ireland play the game. They won, so I guess you can't really complain, but it was turgid stuff and pretty much entirely relied on England being offensively inept. England really are rather poor.

Wales have shown some great attacking flair and you have to worry. Their style of play allowed them recover from their half time deficit against France.

France are gonna win the grand slam.

Happy for Italy. That try was impressive and showed good running lines and handling. Hopefully it's the start of something better.

pappyodaniel

I wish Jonathan Edwards would stop ruining the pronunciation of the name of France's No8. He's not called Hardinoroquy ffs.

thomond2006

He makes a worse job of prouncing Jauzion.

buck65

This weekend taught me that
1. Ireland have a winning mentality, we were outplayed and soaked up alot of English pressure and took all our chances (apart from a bad day from the tee). At this level we are probably the best after the top 4 who are still far ahead of us.
2. France destroyed Wales and fell asleep.
3. Scotland are woeful.
4. Italy are woeful.
5. Wilkinson is finished at international level.
6. Martin Johnson is a sore loser and a plank.

Junior

1. Wales are getting their tactics wrong - first half demolitions of them seem par for the course, however they seem to get it right for the second half, so someone's got brains.

2. Ireland had the right game plan in france but it didn't click (see wales's gameplan 2nd half)

3. We now have a squad, and without a second though I think everyone would agree every Irish player deserves his place either on the bench or starting, we've got impact players, we've got a good starting squad and we can now change our tactics with players as well

4. O'Leary can up his game, I'd still like to see Strings get a run out against Scotland with Sexton at 10, I think he's an asset we will only realise the worth of when he's gone.

5. England surprisingly are bereft of leaders on the field, either they are cowed by one booming voice in training or no one speaks up.

JustinDee

pappyodaniel wrote: »

I wish Jonathan Edwards would stop ruining the pronunciation of the name of France's No8. He's not called Hardinoroquy ffs.

He'd take umbrage no doubt at the fact that you spell Davies with an 'E', a 'd', a 'w', an 'a' . . . etc etc

JustinDee

What did I learn?

- Ireland's backrow is a cracking unit.
- I like Friday 6N games.
- Scotland, Italy and England thrive on sucking the rugby out of rugby union in order to win. England coach even put 'playing too much rugby' as a reason for their losing to Ireland.
- Irish fans make more noise abroad than at Croke Pk.

Riskymove

JustinDee wrote: »

- Irish fans make more noise abroad than at Croke Pk.

that is always the case, not just the Irish

there is soemthing about being in a gropup of a few hundred fellow citizens in a corner of a stadium, surrounded by the opposition that encourages such emotion/noise etc

pickarooney

Anyone else think we should try O'Gara at 9 in order to have him and Sexton on the pitch at the same time and get rid of O'Leary (although TOL did improve over his last couple of games, in fariness to him).

Podge_irl

pickarooney wrote: »

Anyone else think we should try O'Gara at 9 in order to have him and Sexton on the pitch at the same time and get rid of O'Leary (although TOL did improve over his last couple of games, in fariness to him).

Em....no

stephen_n

We learned that having the ball is no longer the way to win modern rugby matches!

anonymous_joe

JustinDee wrote: »

What did I learn?

- Ireland's backrow is a cracking unit.
- I like Friday 6N games.
- Scotland, Italy and England thrive on sucking the rugby out of rugby union in order to win. England coach even put 'playing too much rugby' as a reason for their losing to Ireland.
- Irish fans make more noise abroad than at Croke Pk.

In fairness, we're not really ones to speak when it comes to attractive rugby.

d'Oracle

I learned I was right about James Hook.
He can only play one position well and its not centre.

d'Oracle

pickarooney wrote: »

Anyone else think we should try O'Gara at 9 in order to have him and Sexton on the pitch at the same time and get rid of O'Leary (although TOL did improve over his last couple of games, in fariness to him).

Wait.... what?

anonymous_joe

d'Oracle wrote: »

I learned I was right about James Hook.
He can only play one position well and its not centre.

I wouldn't be so quick to write him off. He's barely played there after all.

d'Oracle

anonymous_joe wrote: »

I wouldn't be so quick to write him off. He's barely played there after all.

Interesting logic.
What if they put Alyn Wyn Jones there?
I mean he would probably be awful, but he hasn't played there.

Kind of like the Hook fullback thing, that didn't work.
I remember having this discussion when he was brought out for the Lions.
I hadn't seen him play well anywhere but 10 and people were telling me he could play 3 positions.

2040

One thing that's interested me recently is the difference in mindset between the English and the Irish. England were talking about the Grand Slam almost from the beginning and then after an unconvincing win over Italy. Have a look at the Joe Worsley interview here for example.

The Ireland team last year were almost reluctant to talk about the Grand Slam even before the Wales game.

I just thought it was an interesting contrast. We also have quite an understanding media (in relation to Rugby anyway, with some exceptions). The pressure put on English players (see Cipriani) and their national team is a bit much.

edit: and Brian Moore is an absolute disgrace of a commentator.

anonymous_joe

d'Oracle wrote: »

Interesting logic.
What if they put Alyn Wyn Jones there?
I mean he would probably be awful, but he hasn't played there.

Kind of like the Hook fullback thing, that didn't work.
I remember having this discussion when he was brought out for the Lions.
I hadn't seen him play well anywhere but 10 and people were telling me he could play 3 positions.

Ah come on, that's fcuking pointless.

What can Hook do - he can kick, he can 'playmake', that is, good hands, good eye for a line or a kick, etc, and he can tackle.

What does an outside centre need to do? See above.

He can play 10 or 12 relatively well. It's not that big a stretch to have him at 13, which doesn't mean he'll be a success there. But he's being judged on the strength of two games. He did quite well in the first of the two.

Podge_irl

2040 wrote: »

edit: and Brian Moore is an absolute disgrace of a commentator.

I realise I go on about this a bit much, but seriously, why? Bar his moaning about the Care penalty, which was a bit OTT but I can see why he was frustrated - and he has a bit of a pathalogical hatred for scrum halves it seems - he was informative and as far as I'm concerned even-handed.

JustinDee

anonymous_joe wrote: »

In fairness, we're not really ones to speak when it comes to attractive rugby.

Would you say there is ever a time when Dec or any coach in fact will blame "playing too much rugby" for a loss?
There is a lot more to this Irish team than just spoiling and hoping to hang around the opposition third of the field waiting for a three-pointer.

Podge_irl

JustinDee wrote: »

Would you say there is ever a time when Dec or any coach in fact will blame "playing too much rugby" for a loss?
There is a lot more to this Irish team than just spoiling and hoping to hang around the opposition third of the field waiting for a three-pointer.

I'm almost certain EOS has used that phrase before.

Johnson really should have complained about being completely ineffectual with the massive amounts of possession they had. It's not playing rugby when you're mindlessly going from ruck to ruck. It is interesting/worrying though that more and more the team with less possession appears to be winning.

2040

Podge_irl wrote: »

I realise I go on about this a bit much, but seriously, why? Bar his moaning about the Care penalty, which was a bit OTT but I can see why he was frustrated - and he has a bit of a pathalogical hatred for scrum halves it seems - he was informative and as far as I'm concerned even-handed.

I can't think of any one thing specifically, although i'm sure i could if i watched the game again, but i just felt he was unbelievably one-eyed and moany. He seemed to harp on about things far more than was necessary when things weren't going England's way.

And i'm not really one to complain about commentators usually. He just really annoyed me on Saturday. The Saffers in the pub i was in thought he was a bit much too.

JustinDee

Podge_irl wrote: »

It is interesting/worrying though that more and more the team with less possession appears to be winning.

I'll never get this way of thinking. Some hack was going on about it before in the media too. Whats worrying about it (if it were the case)? The aim of the game is to score more points than the opposition after all. Not keep the ball the longest.

Podge_irl

JustinDee wrote: »

I'll never get this way of thinking. Some hack was going on about it before in the media too. Whats worrying about it (if it were the case)? The aim of the game is to score more points than the opposition after all. Not keep the ball the longest.

True, I just dislike the "kick the ball to the opposition as far back as possible and hope they make a mistake" type of rugby it produces. I don't mean worrying in the sense of it affecting Ireland's ability to win or anything, it can just makes for crap rugby.

Podge_irl

2040 wrote: »

I can't think of any one thing specifically, although i'm sure i could if i watched the game again, but i just felt he was unbelievably one-eyed and moany. He seemed to harp on about things far more than was necessary when things weren't going England's way.

And i'm not really one to complain about commentators usually. He just really annoyed me on Saturday. The Saffers in the pub i was in thought he was a bit much too.

Fair enough. Probably not much point getting into it because Moore is one of my favourite commentators and I can't for the life of me figure out people's problem with him. He's far, far less biased than the RTÉ commentators in my view (he does concentrate on England a lot, but they are generally the BBC's target audience. He is by absolutely no means one-eyed in the sense of looking kindly on England or "bigging them up" or anything) and is technically astute and a good communicator.

pappyodaniel

JustinDee wrote: »

He'd take umbrage no doubt at the fact that you spell Davies with an 'E', a 'd', a 'w', an 'a' . . . etc etc

2040

Podge_irl wrote: »

Fair enough. Probably not much point getting into it because Moore is one of my favourite commentators and I can't for the life of me figure out people's problem with him. He's far, far less biased than the RTÉ commentators in my view (he does concentrate on England a lot, but they are generally the BBC's target audience. He is by absolutely no means one-eyed in the sense of looking kindly on England or "bigging them up" or anything) and is technically astute and a good communicator.

Yeah, RTE are far worse and it would be very annoying for an English person to listen to it. Thing is, i actually like Brian Moore. He does know what he's talking about and i've heard interviews with him where he's very introspective and likeable. He just gets a bit too excited when England are playing though, and i found it hard to listen to him the last day.

Teferi

I learned that Drico isn't quite the talismanic figure that many make him out to be. Our best bit of rugby was the final 10 after he had went off.

I wouldn't say no to him being on the field though.

Podge_irl

Teferi wrote: »

I learned that Drico isn't quite the talismanic figure that many make him out to be. Our best bit of rugby was the final 10 after he had went off.

I wouldn't say no to him being on the field though.

Ireland had the ball for about 1 minute after O'Driscoll went off. It was basically O'Gara's kick, the line-out and Bowe's try, O'Gara's clearance behind his goal line and Heaslip's kick to end the match.

Teferi

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ireland had the ball for about 1 minute after O'Driscoll went off. It was basically O'Gara's kick, the line-out and Bowe's try, O'Gara's clearance behind his goal line and Heaslip's kick to end the match.

Perhaps I should have said our most cohesive instead of best.

anonymous_joe

JustinDee wrote: »

Would you say there is ever a time when Dec or any coach in fact will blame "playing too much rugby" for a loss?
There is a lot more to this Irish team than just spoiling and hoping to hang around the opposition third of the field waiting for a three-pointer.

I don't think a team under Declan Kidney has ever played enough rugby to be able to use that excuse.

Eddie O'Sullivan's side played more attractive rugby, this one plays more effective rugby.

All we do is kick, defend and hit teams on the counter basically.

d'Oracle

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ah come on, that's fcuking pointless.

What can Hook do - he can kick, he can 'playmake', that is, good hands, good eye for a line or a kick, etc, and he can tackle.

What does an outside centre need to do? See above.

He can play 10 or 12 relatively well. It's not that big a stretch to have him at 13, which doesn't mean he'll be a success there. But he's being judged on the strength of two games. He did quite well in the first of the two.

There are at least two criteria that I would disagree with right there.
But seeing as my opinion is being reduced to that of the baying masses by yourself, I shall opt out of further discourse.

That and your above comment that EOS team played more rugby.
Eddie had us kicking away everything before it was cool.

anonymous_joe

d'Oracle wrote: »

There are at least two criteria that I would disagree with right there.
But seeing as my opinion is being reduced to that of the baying masses by yourself, I shall opt out of further discourse.

Which criteria? I'm not for a moment suggesting that James Hook will turn out to be a world-class outside centre. I'm just not convinced he'll definitely be bad at it.

That and your above comment that EOS team played more rugby.
Eddie had us kicking away everything before it was cool.

In fairness, Eddie O'Sullivan's team kicked the ball a lot. I said they played more attractive rugby than the current side, I hardly compared them to the Harlem Globetrotters.

Junior

Oh yah, forgot to add on the James Hook debate, he's a poor mans Gavin Henson.

Judgement Day

Seems to be a lot of moaning out there considering we won the damn match and by 3 good tries to 1 dubious one. One sided matches are dull, dull, dull and nobody could say that the last three games weren't edge of the seat stuff.
Like Thomond I am seriously doubting my ability to call a game and Paddy Power went home laughing - once again. Only a point in the Italy game and three in the Wales game and I was on the pig's back.
I can't wait for Wales and Scotland now, the boys are going to eat them and don't worry about John Hayes' scrummaging, TOL etc - this Ireland team are more than a match for the celtic cousins.
I also learnt that France are no great shakes and England may well put them away in Paris.

profitius

stephen_n wrote: »

We learned that having the ball is no longer the way to win modern rugby matches!

Teams need a cutting edge to win games and breakdown tight defences.

Zzippy

I learned that trying to get a barman in an Austrian ski resort to show the Wales-France game when the Winter Olympics are on in Vancouver is an exercise in futility. :mad:

I learned also that drinking too much Jaegermeister is a central part of any skiing holiday in said country.

Finally, I learned that in future my mates bird won't be booking the ski trips, so we don't end up on an Aer Lingus flight over the Alps when the Ireland match is on! :mad::mad::mad:

corny

I learned that the English will never just accept they have an average team. When they lose it always has to be somebody's fault. Jonny Wilkinson, Martin Johnson, Brian Ashton, Andy Robinson, the coaches, the RFU, Rob Andrew, the Guinness Premiership, the list is endless! Its been like that for 6 or 7 years now. Its really simple, nothing is broken, average players will achieve average things. Great players (2003) will win you a WC by contrast.

Just out of interest i went through their side and ours 1 to 15. Their front rowers, maybe only a couple of them at that, and Danny Care are the only players i'd like wearing green jerseys. I actually thought they were heroic against us and i was surprised we didn't beat them by more. We were good in defence with a couple of moments of class and that was enough to beat them.

Beanmachine

I learned that Stephen Ferris is even more of an animal than i thought and that sometimes even the Ugly unattractive games are the most enjoyable to watch.

2040

He's a legend, and i believe the best is yet to come from him, injuries permitting.

Crash

Zzippy wrote:

I learned that trying to get a barman in an Austrian ski resort to show the Wales-France game when the Winter Olympics are on in Vancouver is an exercise in futility.

I learned also that drinking too much Jaegermeister is a central part of any skiing holiday in said country.

Finally, I learned that in future my mates bird won't be booking the ski trips, so we don't end up on an Aer Lingus flight over the Alps when the Ireland match is on!

Hah, had all of the above, except I went to the Irish bar for the Wales-France game, so at least got that :P (actually, I was sitting in Salzburg airport during the irish game, rather than flying )

anonymous_joe

corny wrote: »

I learned that the English will never just accept they have an average team. When they lose it always has to be somebody's fault. Jonny Wilkinson, Martin Johnson, Brian Ashton, Andy Robinson, the coaches, the RFU, Rob Andrew, the Guinness Premiership, the list is endless! Its been like that for 6 or 7 years now. Its really simple, nothing is broken, average players will achieve average things. Great players (2003) will win you a WC by contrast.

Just out of interest i went through their side and ours 1 to 15. Their front rowers, maybe only a couple of them at that, and Danny Care are the only players i'd like wearing green jerseys. I actually thought they were heroic against us and i was surprised we didn't beat them by more. We were good in defence with a couple of moments of class and that was enough to beat them.

I think what annoys most English fans is that they have guys who are potentially as good as quite a few Irish lads but just aren't.

As examples - Haskell, Tait, their entire front row, Armitage, Cueto, Monye - all those lads have plenty of talent. They just haven't come anywhere near fulfilling it, whereas pretty much all the Irish lads have done so.

twinytwo

wales are not that good.. gatland needs to go and ryan jones and andy powell should be banned from international rugby.

Scotland have zero dept whatsoever

Haskell needs to cut down on the baby food or whatever he is on

Ferris is a god damn machine

If we could combine drico and earls the resulting player would be so awesome the world would end

Tommy bowe is the sh1t

Armitage is not international standard he is woefull.. foden should have been playing from the start.

mk1600

I learned that France have as good as won the grand slam.

Unless Ireland miracle a good scrum/replacement tight head that winning another grand slam (in the near future) and even the shred of hope we might have of a semi final/final in the 2011 RWC quickly falling away.

On the other hand the last 5 minutes in particular against england were exceptional, showed allot of hunger to keep them out.

Zzippy

Crash wrote: »

Hah, had all of the above, except I went to the Irish bar for the Wales-France game, so at least got that :P (actually, I was sitting in Salzburg airport during the irish game, rather than flying )

LOL, well at least you could get text updates. Our captain didn't even want to give us the score as he was taping the match at home to watch later :rolleyes: Luckily got into DUB just in time to catch the last few mins...

Crash

Couple of people on our flight were avoiding the score...then the captain went and announced it :rolleyes:

Webbs

France are a good team that amazingly for them are playing pretty disciplined rugby with few mistakes but a resulting lack of flair and playing it the 'French way'. They are not unbeatable though as would be interesting to see how they did if they had to play catch up rugby.

Ireland have carried on from last year, again playing low risk controlled rugby with a great defence - only worry is that if you play that many games with low risk and generally low scoring then you are leaving yourself open to a sucker punch. At risk of getting shot down here Ireland need a plan B if A isnt working to be truly great team

Scotland are doing a Jekyll and Hyde in this championship, at times they have been very good and at others absolute muck and completely rudderless, they dont seem to have a strong leader on the field who can make the decisions on the hoof. As a unit along with France I think they have the best balanced backrow in the 6N and they arent making use of it.

Wales are playing high risk rugby and if they cut out their mistakes have the potential to turn anyone over. Their lineout is woeful and stops them when they have built up momentum on too many occasions. I think they have scored the most tries and made the most mistakes of anyone in the championship so far. They have missed Gethin Jenkins more than I thought they would particularly in the loose were he becomes a fourth backrow player. Wales have produced very very little turnover ball.

Italy are Italy, tough to breakdown well organised defence but need to show more adventure like they did against the Scots, even if they are limited in the backs they arent going to win again if they just rely on a forward game.