Sexton v O'Gara

Spiritoftheseventies

Okay this could be a re run of the Wardy Campbell question from late seventies and early eighties.
Will management choose O Gara's kicking over Sextons silky skills. I would go for Sexton and bring O Gara on if we run into trouble.

r3nu4l

Um, Sexton only kicked 1 of 5 or 6 yesterday iirc? One of those was a simple enough kick that I think O'Gara would have converted easily.

However, Sexton is younger and not as experienced so the comparison is not really like-for-like. Sexton will improve with time and may then become as god as O'Gara.

fifth

We've had this many times now.. I'd still choose sexton, his kicking was off yesterday but he didn't have a terrible game.

Micky Dolenz

I'm not going to vote but I will say this, and ye may think I am mad. But if Kidney can use these two guys in tandem we can be lethal. They are both class, sure, Sexton missed a few kicks, every 10 will have days when they hurt their kicking stats but I've seen him kick those types of angles and distances before and no doubt he'll do them again in a green shirt.

The young lad has no fear and good hands, that with ROG's experiance and kicking the sky could be the limit, roll on RWC '11 :pac:

Kev_ps3

O'Gara imo.

CatFromHue

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I'm not going to vote but I will say this, and ye may think I am mad. But if Kidney can use these two guys in tandem we can be lethal. They are both class, sure, Sexton missed a few kicks, every 10 will have days when they hurt their kicking stats but I've seen him kick those types of angles and distances before and no doubt he'll do them again in a green shirt.

The young lad has no fear and good hands, that with ROG's experiance and kicking the sky could be the limit, roll on RWC '11 :pac:

i'd second this. if you remember when humphreys and o gara were both going for the ireland 10 jersey, what tended to happen was one would play 50/60 mins then the other would come on and make a difference for the rest of the game.
It resulted on the team being the winners by having proper competition for the jersey wth 2 guys pushing themselves to be the best. like it should be.
why go for the blonde and the bruenette when you can have both at once:D

Magic eye

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I'm not going to vote but I will say this, and ye may think I am mad. But if Kidney can use these two guys in tandem we can be lethal. They are both class, sure, Sexton missed a few kicks, every 10 will have days when they hurt their kicking stats but I've seen him kick those types of angles and distances before and no doubt he'll do them again in a green shirt.

The young lad has no fear and good hands, that with ROG's experiance and kicking the sky could be the limit, roll on RWC '11 :pac:

This sounds like the way forward tbh.

Spud83

Sexton is the future. One difficult day from the tee doesn't change that. Especially when he was very threatening for the rest of the game, created one try, and heavily involved in the second one.

What he needs is experience, which is why he should start the two remaining games.

O Gara came on yesterday and played well while using his experience, we can't rob Sexton of the chance of getting some experience over him missing a few difficult kicks. You would swear O'Gara never had a bad day at the tee.

We can safely say Ireland does not have a nailed down number ten. They will be rotated and picked on form for the foreseeable future, but for the reason I stated above I want Sexton starting the next two games.

thomond2006

For the remaining two games, I would give both one start each.

Off topic, but I would do the same for TOL/Reddan and tighthead.

_blank_

Hmmmm.

I'm locking this because I'm not going to be here all day, if another mod feels like unlocking, then be my guest

uberwolf

open for a wee while, until I head out or a rugby mod says otherwise

Spiritoftheseventies

appreciated Uberwolf but is there a worry that this thread will get out of hand. Doesnt really matter where Sexton is from really if that is the worry. I think we have the chance here for a really good debate. Hope it is given a bit of time. But again thanks for re opening it.

corny

Its Sexton for me, just. Rog can prove a liability in defence sometimes and probably isn't as good a playmaker as Sexton. Rog controls the game better though and he'd be the man for the pressure kicks for me too.

Ian_K

Imo, every aspect of Sexton's game is better than O'Gara's except his kicking (from hand and from the tee), hopefully that will come with more experience.Yesterday was his first international match away from home in fairness.

I like what Deccie did yesterday, springing ROG's experience from the bence might have won the game for us but i wouldnt be surprised if he started him next time.

However, by the time the world cup comes around i'm sure Sexton will have established himself as the undisputed number 10

themont85

corny wrote: »

Its Sexton for me, just. Rog can prove a liability in defence sometimes and probably isn't as good a playmaker as Sexton. Rog controls the game better though and he'd be the man for the pressure kicks for me too.

Sexton won Leinster the Heineken Cup with a great clutch kick. Not saying O'Gara couldn't in fairness.

irishbucsfan

Sexton kicked his first 11 in a row for Ireland, didn't he?

He had a bad day with the boot on Saturday but he offers far more than O'Gara. O'Gara''s experience is valuable though.

toomevara

Christ are we doomed to have this tedious discussion after every bleedin' game? Look we've got two top class 10's who each offer different approaches to any given game. Glorious position to be in and tbh, I couldn't care less which of them starts the remaining games.

Kidney had the great luxury to be able to change tack with either as the game demands/dictates. As it stands either man will do an admirable job for Ireland. The parallels between this situation and the D.Humphries/O'Gara debate a few years back are obvious and I expect the situation to resolve in the same way.

anonymous_joe

toomevara wrote: »

Christ are we doomed to have this tedious discussion after every bleedin' game? Look we've got two top class 10's who each offer different approaches to any given game. Glorious position to be in and tbh, I couldn't care less which of them starts the remaining games.

Kidney had the great luxury to be able to change tack with either as the game demands/dictates. As it stands either man will do an admirable job for Ireland. The parallels between this situation and the D.Humphries/O'Gara debate a few years back are obvious and I expect the situation to resolve in the same way.

Pretty much.

It's basically the only contentious decision we have to make at the moment.

Take France as an example - they've got a half dozen or so good players in most positions. You just don't have the same reliance on one or two players, nor do you have the same continuity etc.

We might get to see arguments about Geordan Murphy v Rob Kearney and Cullen v DOC soon too though. :P

Colm R

Absolutely thrilled that Sexton had a bad game on Saturday.....why I hear you ask?

Because he can take more away from that game than if he had a good game. The England game could be the making of him. It will help him idenify where his weaknesses are and what he needs to work on. And while he is doing that, we have ROG to come on and do what he does best.

Sexton will be the number 10 at the RWC, and ROG will be there to back him up all the way.

Spud83

Can I ask. Do you think he had a bad game? Or a bad game from the tee?

Tim Robbins

Colm R wrote: »

Absolutely thrilled that Sexton had a bad game on Saturday...

Why do people keep saying this?
He had a critical role in two of Ireland's tries.

Have people forgotten the concept that back play is about creating space, understanding angles etc. ?

jimmybeige

He definitely did not have a bad game on Saturday. His kicking was a bit off in bad conditions but that does not equate to a bad game by any means. Nailing his kicks is important for any placekicker, and we would have been in a more comfortable position if he had slotted them over. But very difficult kicks and I think people are giving too much weight to his placekicking on Saturday in his perfomance as an OH overall.

Colm R

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Why do people keep saying this?
He had a critical role in two of Ireland's tries.

Have people forgotten the concept that back play is about creating space, understanding angles etc. ?

Fair point. His game was not 'bad' per se. Maybe the wrong word for me to use.

But his game was not perfect, more on the tee than in general play. But I'm just trying to make the point that this was a game where Sexton can take a lot away.

Spud83

Colm R wrote: »

But his game was not perfect, more on the tee than in general play. But I'm just trying to make the point that this was a game where Sexton can take a lot away.

Yeah I think thats a fair point. The experience will certainly stand to him in the future, and thats exactly what he needs experience.

pwd

why do they need to keep such a close eye on this thread?

Tim Robbins

Colm R wrote: »

Fair point. His game was not 'bad' per se. Maybe the wrong word for me to use.

But his game was not perfect, more on the tee than in general play. But I'm just trying to make the point that this was a game where Sexton can take a lot away.

Let's look at the imperfections: missing a few quicks, most international kickers miss. He hit one field kick out on the full (there was an advantage anyway) and his cross field kicking was pretty good.

If you want to see a 10 who kick a rugby ball, take out the old VHS video player and have a look at Brian Smith or Christian Warner.

The thing that Sexton has is he takes the ball very flatly and sucks in two players by running into the mddle of the two defenders. This creates huge space on the outside.

All Bowe and Earls had to do was run a simple line and they had a try thanks to Sexton. This is at international level, away from home. What he did in both those tries he made look very easy but its not that easy.

ROG's form has been all over the place. When he came on he nearly gave away a penalty for been stupidly offside at a ruck. This is when Laurence had been strict on this the hole game.

He's made a lot of mistakes in recent tests. Mistimes a critical pass against the Aussies, missing tackles as usual against the French and throwing the Lions series in the bin.

d'Oracle

pwd wrote: »

why do they need to keep such a close eye on this thread?

Because these often descend into petty provincial nonsense.

For my money Sexton had a great game.
O'Gara did well when he came on, I'm not sure he won the game or anything.
I mean you could point to the perfect kick for touch before Bowes try but you could counter that with Sextons kick for the Earls try.

And his pass.

And his running line, awesome step, and sweet kick through for Bowes first.

Micky Dolenz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Let's look at the imperfections: missing a few quicks, most international kickers miss. He hit one field kick out on the full (there was an advantage anyway) and his cross field kicking was pretty good.

If you want to see a 10 who kick a rugby ball, take out the old VHS video player and have a look at Brian Smith or Christian Warner.

The thing that Sexton has is he takes the ball very flatly and sucks in two players by running into the mddle of the two defenders. This creates huge space on the outside.

All Bowe and Earls had to do was run a simple line and they had a try thanks to Sexton. This is at international level, away from home. What he did in both those tries he made look very easy but its not that easy.

ROG's form has been all over the place. When he came on he nearly gave away a penalty for been stupidly offside at a ruck. This is when Laurence had been strict on this the hole game.

He's made a lot of mistakes in recent tests. Mistimes a critical pass against the Aussies, missing tackles as usual against the French and throwing the Lions series in the bin.

you couldn't just have left it at bigging up Johnney, you had to have a dig at O Gara at the end. This feeds into the tit for tat rubbish and will ensure that Sextons every mistake will be highlighted. Give the lad over 10 years at the highest level and he'll have a list of mistakes too.

Tim Robbins

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

you couldn't just have left it at bigging up Johnney, you had to have a dig at O Gara at the end. This feeds into the tit for tat rubbish and will ensure that Sextons every mistake will be highlighted. Give the lad over 10 years at the highest level and he'll have a list of mistakes too.

Indeed. But right now it's about whose the better player. And we can do that by sticking to rugby reasons looking at the various aspects of both their games: passing, kicking, tackling, running, timing, postionaly play, decision making and have an interesting conversation or with can just use a load of mindless rhetoric. I'm trying to give rugby reasons for my decisions with specific examples if you don't agree, why not deal with the specific and say why you think they are wrong.

Riskymove

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

you couldn't just have left it at bigging up Johnney, you had to have a dig at O Gara at the end.

in fairness, at least he gives a few specific examples of what is talking about to back up his view which is more than what many do

Christ are we doomed to have this tedious discussion after every bleedin' game?

the topic is not tedious, its an important selection choice and will continue until ROG retires I'd say; its unfortunately the replies that become tedious as many are hardly above schoolyard level

Because these often descend into petty provincial nonsense

exactly, its no wonder some people express the wish to see Sexton perform poorly, given the amount of increidibly childish and downright disrespectful guff aimed at ROG in recent times

I have no problem with discussing selection based on ability and form

I dont care about how likeable someone is or what club they play for.

stephen_n

I think Kidney got it right On Saturday, Sexton to start and O'Gara's experience to close out games, an amazing choice for a coach and a country to have. They both bring different dimensions to the gameand as there is very little if anything to seperate them it will always be down to the tactics from now till when O'Gara retires!

Micky Dolenz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Indeed. But right now it's about whose the better player. And we can do that by sticking to rugby reasons looking at the various aspects of both their games: passing, kicking, tackling, running, timing, postionaly play, decision making and have an interesting conversation or with can just use a load of mindless rhetoric. I'm trying to give rugby reasons for my decisions with specific examples if you don't agree, why not deal with the specific and say why you think they are wrong.

With all due respect Tim, saying O Gara "throwing the Lions series in the bin." is just begging for a reaction from the O Gara camp. To me this is mindless rhetoric.

As I have already alluded too, I am happy to have Sexton start with O Gara getting game time when his experiance is needed. I would apply the same thinking to all players over 30, the way forward is to introduce young players if they are good enough.

Sexton is good enough and has all the right ingredients to start, age being a major factor.

Angus Og

And it's absolutely essential that they both feel wanted by Ireland, not just Leinster or Munster fans. What would happen if one of them got injured? This happened with Sexton already. Need to keep them both.

d'Oracle

Angus Og wrote: »

And it's absolutely essential that they both feel wanted by Ireland,

It's International Rugby, not a long term romantic relationship.
If they need to feel "wanted" then they shouldn't be there.

Angus Og

Yeah, but Ireland has a habit of drawing lines. Didn't you hear the way some people talked when Leo Cullen was left out of the start against England?

Anyway, don't take my words so seriously.

Tim Robbins

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

With all due respect Tim, saying O Gara "throwing the Lions series in the bin." is just begging for a reaction from the O Gara camp. To me this is mindless rhetoric.

Fair enough but he missed a tackle and gave away a needless penalty and lions lost a match they should of won. That equates to throwing the series in the bin, I'm afraid.

Also, in that test he came on in the last 10 - 15 minutes. Are we sure he's the type of player you bring on for ten minutes to go?

EOS built his defensive system around ROG's weaknesses so did DK. EOS used the blind side winger to cover him (see the French game in the World Cup, where trimble comes in to cover him and then Michalak puts the ball in the zone where Trimble left), Kidney used to take a flanker out of the lineout to cover him.

So the people who are saying he should come on for the last ten minutes, are you saying we should also change our defensive system for the last ten minutes as well?

Come on you have to think it through...

As I have already alluded too, I am happy to have Sexton start with O Gara getting game time when his experiance is needed. I would apply the same thinking to all players over 30, the way forward is to introduce young players if they are good enough.

Sexton is good enough and has all the right ingredients to start, age being a major factor.

I disagree with the age thing. I remember reading somewhere O'Gara had a huge fight with EOS because he didn't like being taken off with ten minutes to go for Humphries.

People should be picked on merit not because they are old or young.

thebaz

stephen_n wrote: »

I think Kidney got it right On Saturday, Sexton to start and O'Gara's experience to close out games, an amazing choice for a coach and a country to have. They both bring different dimensions to the gameand as there is very little if anything to seperate them it will always be down to the tactics from now till when O'Gara retires!

agree totally - O'Gara was class when he came on - back to his confident best

Podge_irl

Angus Og wrote: »

Yeah, but Ireland has a habit of drawing lines. Didn't you hear the way some people talked when Leo Cullen was left out of the start against England?

Some people thought it was an odd decision, which is was to a point. I don't remember much crowing about it though.

Podge_irl

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Fair enough but he missed a tackle and gave away a needless penalty and lions lost a match they should of won. That equates to throwing the series in the bin, I'm afraid.

Also, in that test he came on in the last 10 - 15 minutes. Are we sure he's the type of player you bring on for ten minutes to go?

In his defence, the Lions were in complete disarray for those 10-15 minutes with all their injuries.

d'Oracle

Angus Og wrote: »

Didn't you hear the way some people talked when Leo Cullen was left out of the start against England?

Still not getting you.
What do these people have to do with anything?
Leo Cullen played against England and I'm sure is not thinking about if Ireland want him.

Or was your post a joke then?

Micky Dolenz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Fair enough but he missed a tackle and gave away a needless penalty and lions lost a match they should of won. That equates to throwing the series in the bin, I'm afraid.

Also, in that test he came on in the last 10 - 15 minutes. Are we sure he's the type of player you bring on for ten minutes to go?

I disagree with the age thing. I remember reading somewhere O'Gara had a huge fight with EOS because he didn't like being taken off with ten minutes to go for Humphries.

People should be picked on merit not because they are old or young.

The age factor is important though, if you keep on playing the 30 somethings, what happens when they are over the hill, fresh blood must be brought in to keep the future of Irish rugby bright.

I'm not going to get into the whole Lions thing with you. O Gara's impressive record speaks for itself. I hope Sexton can be as successfull in his career.

Angus Og

Sorry, I'm not getting you.

The point I'm trying to make is what's wrong with having two good players for one position?

Really, I didn't mean to come across like I was joking. Let's forget about it.

matt-dublin

Not quite back to his confident best, but out to prove a point that it wasn't his fault we lost the france match!

Plus from what i saw he was playing offside in two of the malls and was lucky not to be called on it.

Tim Robbins

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

The age factor is important though, if you keep on playing the 30 somethings, what happens when they are over the hill, fresh blood must be brought in to keep the future of Irish rugby bright.

Yeah it's important alright but not as important as defensive systems and winning test matches. Can you tell me if you think O'Gara should come on in the last ten minutes, if Ireland should change their defensive systems like various manages with ROG in their team have done?

I'm not going to get into the whole Lions thing with you. O Gara's impressive record speaks for itself. I hope Sexton can be as successfull in his career.

Is there any other big games from the last two years we are not allowed used to reference? It sounds like you don't like looking at the evidence.

Tim Robbins

matt-dublin wrote: »

Not quite back to his confident best, but out to prove a point that it wasn't his fault we lost the france match!

Who the f says it was? Tabloid media?

matt-dublin

no just the letter he wrote to the independent the week before last saying he wouldn't be used as a scape goat for ireland losing the match

Micky Dolenz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Yeah it's important alright but not as important as defensive systems and winning test matches. Can you tell me if you think O'Gara should come on in the last ten minutes, if Ireland should change their defensive systems like various manages with ROG in their team have done?


Is there any other big games from the last two years we are not allowed used to reference? It sounds like you don't like looking at the evidence.

Depends on how the game is going, I prefer subs coming on with 20 to go, but again it depends.

Evidence you say, well you seem to what to pick the parts of the evidence that suit your argument.

I would never blame one player for losing a series, soley because it is a team sport and losing and winning is a collective experience.

If we were to go over the Lions tour, there were mutilpe reasons why we lost and O Gara was a part of it but only a part and not the main reason the Lions lost.

Angus Og

matt-dublin wrote: »

no just the letter he wrote to the independent the week before last saying he wouldn't be used as a scape goat for ireland losing the match

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/ogara-letter-to-editor-why-i-refuse-to--be-scapegoated-by-kevin-myers-2070434.html

d'Oracle

Probably should be pointed out that O'Gara benefited immensely from a similar situation at the start of his career.

We didn't put Humphreys out to stud as soon as Rog showed up, I don't think its all over for Ronan by any stretch.

d'Oracle

Angus Og wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/ogara-letter-to-editor-why-i-refuse-to--be-scapegoated-by-kevin-myers-2070434.html

Opinions are like a55holes.
Everyone has them, but only some people are paid for them.

Tim Robbins

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Depends on how the game is going, I prefer subs coming on with 20 to go, but again it depends.

You still haven't really answered the question.
It's the week of a big test match. You sit down with your defensive coach. you go through all the weakness of your team and the strengths of the other team.

You have a plan to bring ROG on for the last 20 minutes of the game for various reasons. You defensive coach says to you, ok so in training do we use the same defensive system no matter whose playing 10 or do we have two one for with ROG or without ROG?

If you don't have two, you have a major weakness that you are not tactically covering. If you do have two, you waste a lot of training time, working on both of them.

Which do you pick?

Evidence you say, well you seem to what to pick the parts of the evidence that suit your argument.

I would never blame one player for losing a series, soley because it is a team sport and losing and winning is a collective experience.

We had the second test in the bag had it not been for O'Gara. Simple as.
The French game he was just one of many players who didn't perform.