What is the fate of the Mark 3's?

Run_to_da_hills

I heard rumors that they are all going to be cut up because they cannot get buyers for them and there is no space to keep them in secure storage. :mad:

JHMEG

Fate. That would certain be a pity. I always had a fondness for those and they are far more comfortable for intercity journeys than any railcar.

lord lucan

Tbh i don't think they've even looked for buyers for them. Looks to me like IE management decided that locos and rolling stock were to be banished with immediate effect. There were MKIII's all over the network following their withdrawl,i was in Waterford last November and there were 2 rakes down there,another load at North Wall and some at Heuston in the old Guinness sidings.

Shocking waste of excellent coaching stock,their comfort and ride qualities are far superior to the MKIV's that replaced them,only the DeDietrich sets on the Enterprise have comparable qualities.

Rud

is there still a set of mk3s stored in Dundalk?

lord lucan

Rud wrote: »

is there still a set of mk3s stored in Dundalk?

There was up to late last year,no idea if they're still there though.

FlameoftheWest

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I heard rumors that they are all going to be cut up because they cannot get buyers for them and there is no space to keep them in secure storage. :mad:

Can't beleive there is no interest in them.

ardmacha

As there is significant land beside railway lines, how much would it cost to build a couple of big sheds to store these in running order? Properly managed this could provide a bit of spare capacity to run specials on bank holiday weekends and for Rugby Internationals, All Ireland semi finals and the like.

Run_to_da_hills

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Can't beleive there is no interest in them.

I would guess its all down to "snobbery" every country in Europe wants fancy streamlined Virgin style EMU/ DMU sets instead of carriages pulled by single locos. I would prefere to see them donated to some third world country in Africa rather than be cut up with a gas axe and sold for scrap.

There would also be other factors to be taken into consideration, Ireland uses 5ft 3" track gauge which is only used in Victoria Australia and remote parts of Brazil giving them a very limited market without major modifications to their bogie sets.

Cookie_Monster

There is one set being restored exclusilvy for some promo or otherr on the WRC.

It is insane that they are letting these go to waste, only to be replaced by those awful 22ks


As for their faith, I think they're Protestant

corktina

Protestant isnt a faith ..Christian is...:)

I think the thing with the Mk3s is they are quite elderly and need a life-extention overhaul which would be quite major. With that and the savings to be made not having to run-round at the end of each trip, the new 22 series units were judged to be a better option.

csd

Rud wrote: »

is there still a set of mk3s stored in Dundalk?

There were at least two, possibly three rakes stored in Dundalk when I passed on the Enterprise a few weeks ago.

/csd

alpha2zulu

Theres still 2 rakes down in Waterford aswell-one of which had a 071 hooked up to it there on Thursday night for some reason. At least one rake was cut up in the Waterford yard last year also.

Captain Chaos

The sets in Dundalk are said to be in such a state after being stored for so long in the open that they will have to be scrapped where they are. They are not likely to be moved.

There were 3 sets in North Wall yard at the end of last year. The Mk3A set is gone now. 2-3 were sold off, the rest of the set was scrapped. There are 2 sets left there and are shunted around almost every day.

There is 1 set being made up of all the left overs. The 7-8 coaches in the best condition are being made ready for one last rail tour. Thats why all the set are being moved around.

3 of the Mk3 gen vans have gone North to York Road to be re painted and to be added to the Enterprise sets to reduce the 201 failures. One has already been completed and is back in Inchicore for further modifications such as couplings and wiring to work with the Enterprise coaches in pushpull modes.

Ham'nd'egger

ardmacha wrote: »

As there is significant land beside railway lines, how much would it cost to build a couple of big sheds to store these in running order? Properly managed this could provide a bit of spare capacity to run specials on bank holiday weekends and for Rugby Internationals, All Ireland semi finals and the like.

All told for track laying and construction of a shed that will be hundreds of yards long, probably a few million; it would possibly be cheaper to purchase more 22000's.

Another problem with Mark 3's is that they get manky inside if they are not run so they are not ideal for long term storage.

Run_to_da_hills

Hamndegger wrote: »

All told for track laying and construction of a shed that will be hundreds of yards long, probably a few million; it would possibly be cheaper to purchase more 22000's.

Another problem with Mark 3's is that they get manky inside if they are not run so they are not ideal for long term storage.

I heard that before with any AC units.

Victor

There is a suggestion that a UK operator may be interested in a few.

Medium term, there is a hope to enhance the Dublin-Belfast service.

Captain Chaos

Victor wrote: »

There is a suggestion that a UK operator may be interested in a few.

Medium term, there is a hope to enhance the Dublin-Belfast service.

For a UK operator the only hope was for the Mk3A set but they are all gone now. Our Mk3s were fitted with automatic doors and wiring, all UK Mk3s have slam doors so they would not be able to mix and match them. Then there would be the cost or re-gauging them back to the UK gauge. It would be very expensive for them to only have one set that could only work by itself unless they practically rebuild each one.

The Dublin-Belfast service is being enhanced with them by using the EGVs on the Enterprise sets. Using these will reduce each set by one standard carriage but since passanger numbers have dropped on the route it won't matter.

There was talk of using a Mk3 push pull set or two and this may still happen as the Mk3 DVTs are still intact but some of the Mk3 push pull coaches have been scrapped already but there should still be enough left.

IE and NIR will only use multiple unit or push pull type trains now as they don't want to have loco running around sets at each end and requiring a shunter loco for release. So thats the standard Mk3 rules out.

IE would want to move quick as the Mk3s are not going to last much longer unused. Even if they used 1 of the 12 idle 201s they have in Inchicore to give them a run once or twice a week between Inchicore and North Wall yard to keep them in a viable condition instead of letting them rot for no good reason they could be kept for GAA specials or whatever.

An interesting thing a few months ago was the test train IE ran on the Cork mainline. It consisted of half a Mk4 set and rest were Mk3s, they must have been working on the ride quality of the Mk4s again.

Captain Chaos

Captain Chaos wrote: »

An interesting thing a few months ago was the test train IE ran on the Cork mainline. It consisted of half a Mk4 set and rest were Mk3s, they must have been working on the ride quality of the Mk4s again.

A few photos here:

http://thewanderersirishrailphotos.fotopic.net/p59011401.html

It's an odd formation alright.

Captain Chaos

Here is one of the first Enterprise Mk3 gen van.

http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://userland.fotopic.net/logos/167818.gif&imgrefurl=http://northernirelandtransportphotos.fotopic.net/c1815911.html&usg=__PyOE_1Mm4CRMIZZeOj7E3dDTYl8=&h=567&w=1008&sz=130&hl=en&start=1&itbs=1&tbnid=IkSoyCxHkk81hM:&tbnh=84&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3DMk3%2Bgen%2Bvan%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DG%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1

On its way back to Inchicore after the repaint. Would love to see a full Mk3 set like this.

Maverick88

I would be more surprised if some didn't end up going to UK.

Yes, they have to be re guaged, however there's dozens of MK3 DVT's they used to work the West Coast main line sitting idle in an ex MOD base at Moreton in the Marsh. There's little chance of them being used again and they're sitting on bogies that had relatively little use. So no real shortage of bogies.

As to the power door issue, again not a real issue as currently one of the Train Operating Companies (TOC'S), Chiltern is looking at the possibility of adding power doors and chemical retention toilets to the MK3's that its been buying of late, Chiltern currently is an all DMU/Railcar railway and the Mk3 they've bought are to expand capacity.

Virgin recently released a completely refurb MK3 set to match the Pendolino's on the West Coast main line, and they look pretty dam good.

Another TOC using refurbed Mk3's is WMSR (sister company to Chiltern) who run from Wrexham/Shrewsbury to Marylebone.

There's very little spare stock in the UK, so a couple of rakes of MK3's refurbed would be a sensible idea.

The current cost of a new railway carriage is around £1 million pound a pop. You could refurb 4 or 5 Mk3's for that, if not more.

popebenny16

two carriages have been sold to the UK. There are plans (or were) to have an hourly Belfast - Dublin Services using the Mk3 with Enterprise Sets. Also planned was to have a spare set each end of Dublin-Cork line for emergency replacement of failed CDE services.

The only real reason for getting rid of Mk3's is this policy change to railcars (which is a debate in itself and not exactly on topic) mark3's were bang on the date for midlife refurb. They are more conformable and advanced than their UK counterparts in their time, refurbished they could have been very very good (I have seen refurbished UK mk3's and they kick the living **** out of 22ks).

Not to mention the collateral waste of 201 locos too (and that is another topic too I guess) no one will want those either.

Victor

Maverick88 wrote: »

Yes, they have to be re guaged, however there's dozens of MK3 DVT's they used to work the West Coast main line sitting idle in an ex MOD base at Moreton in the Marsh.

Is this it? Now a fire brigade training centre. Very few railway vehicles on site, most shown in this shot. Lots of fire trucks though. Oddly, I can't see how the railway is connected to the site.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Moreton+in+the+Marsh.&sll=51.994077,-1.687013&sspn=0.000614,0.002473&ie=UTF8&rq=1&ev=zi&t=h&radius=0.05&hq=Moreton+in+the+Marsh.&hnear=&ll=51.994077,-1.687013&spn=0.000614,0.002473&z=19


EDIT: there is loads of stuff further north at Long Marston. It looks like a variety of DVTs, locos, coaches and flat beds (note site is approximately 1500m in diameter and former airbase slightly north). http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Moreton+in+the+Marsh.&sll=52.118864,-1.769558&sspn=0.000613,0.002473&ie=UTF8&rq=1&ev=p&t=h&radius=0.05&hq=Moreton+in+the+Marsh.&hnear=&ll=52.118864,-1.769558&spn=0.000613,0.002473&z=19

http://petertandy.co.uk/longmarston%20page.html

/scrubs with bleach and steel wool.

corktina

road transport used to the Fire service place. I think the poster means long marston alright...

Maverick88

D'oh I did of course mean Long Marston

corktina

i dont think them getting manky inside is THAT much a problem as they are due for refurbishment anyway. UK operators would only be interested in the body shells really, rather like the New Zealand operators who have bought Mk2s from the UK

Maverick88

Corktina- Correct, the bodyshells would be what they're after.

These are just too good to be scrapped when they've got years of potential use left in them. Would be a terrible waste

foggy_lad

i would have to agree that those old mkIII carriages are far more comfortable than the current Dublin-Cork trains!

Judgement Day

I don't think that we should get hung up on the age thing when it comes to MkIIIs - OK so they are 25 years old BUT they were built to a hi tech/safe modern design, unlike the 30 year old timber bodied stock that I hurtled up and down to Cork, and elsewhere, well into the early 1980s. The carriages to which I refer were the various CIE 1950's built vehicles which were basically identical in construction to those of the 1880/90 period - an obsolete design that was found so wanting in the horrific accidents at Buttevant (1980) and Cherryville (1983). While these 1950 carriages were on steel underframes, they were not integral with the frames and were simply bolted on. They were fitted with the old screw couplings and internally had changed little from their Victorian counterparts. It will probably surprise many to know that many of these CIE carriages contained parts from the days of the Great Southern & Western Railway - that's right pre-1925!

There is no way that Mk IV stock is in any way superior to either the Mk II or Mk III stock - in terms of safety/comfort or speed - the main difference being more internal displays/sliding toilet doors/power points for laptops etc. The Mk IIIs, with an internal refit, were good for at least another 20/30 years and it is a criminal waste of money to withdraw and scrap them. Somebody needs to be held accountable - preferably Noel 'Laissez Faire' Dempsey and his side kick John Lynch. :mad:

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

I don't think that we should get hung up on the age thing when it comes to MkIIIs - OK so they are 25 years old BUT they were built to a hi tech/safe modern design, unlike the 30 year old timber bodied stock that I hurtled up and down to Cork, and elsewhere, well into the early 1980s. The carriages to which I refer were the various CIE 1950's built vehicles which were basically identical in construction to those of the 1880/90 period - an obsolete design that was found so wanting in the horrific accidents at Buttevant (1980) and Cherryville (1983). While these 1950 carriages were on steel underframes, they were not integral with the frames and were simply bolted on. They were fitted with the old screw couplings and internally had changed little from their Victorian counterparts. It will probably surprise many to know that many of these CIE carriages contained parts from the days of the Great Southern & Western Railway - that's right pre-1925!

There is no way that Mk IV stock is in any way superior to either the Mk II or Mk III stock - in terms of safety/comfort or speed - the main difference being more internal displays/sliding toilet doors/power points for laptops etc. The Mk IIIs, with an internal refit, were good for at least another 20/30 years and it is a criminal waste of money to withdraw and scrap them. Somebody needs to be held accountable - preferably Noel 'Laissez Faire' Dempsey and his side kick John Lynch. :mad:

Well I agree entirely JD. But in the Celtic Tiger mindset, a decision was taken to buy new toys and new toys is what they bought. As the money flowed in, they thought it would never end. New frequent timetables were planned (already falling asunder) and the need to run "specials" was deemed unecessary.

The funny thing is that these trains were actually the best to run on Irish railways and if the oul maverick pussycat hadn't happened then we may have had no choice but to find the money to refurb the MK3s. Oh the irony. Bought in a time of poverty and then discarded in a time of wealth. One can only ponder the what "if we" had converted them to railcar type operation akin to the UKs 125s (best train ever built). The biggest pity is that CIE were obsessed with locos from across the atlantic and rolling stock from across the pond. The two never did gel! And now we have a mish mash of poor times overlapping with rich times. Half arsed loco hauled ****e on the Cork - Dublin line and Korean lego railcars everywhere else.

So we are ridding ourselves of non life expired rolling stock in favour of newer stuff that I can guarantee will not last the distance the MK3s did. But you know IRISH "Decades of under investment" RAIL were born as beggars and it now looks like they are on horseback and riding to blazes!

Hope nobody minds but I thought I might share some high res interior photos from my personal collection.

Standard Mk3
CityGold coach
Composite coach
63xx Push-pull (note no toilet at the end of the coach)
Push-pull restaurant coach 6402

Not sure if I have a decent interior shot of the standard 74xx restaurant car, need to do some digging.

Jonathan

Karsini wrote: »

63xx Push-pull (note no toilet at the end of the coach)
Push-pull restaurant coach 6402

Taken in Tralee with the trains on platform 1 and 2?