WITSU Elections - 2010 - 2011

Sully

With every new year, we get the hustle and bustle towards the latter end of the term with the student union elections. I think, personally, that the last few years have had fairly decent officers. Not perfect, fair enough, but still high on the list of the "Best WITSU Team".

Now other colleges and universities have begun or are at least in the final stages of their campaigns, but things are much slower this year with talk about the campaigns going over two weeks - beginning the week before mid-term, then having mid-term and finishing up the week we return. This date is being suggested by the returning officer and while looks certain, it may change. The returning officer is external to WITSU and is actually new to this job (the usual person has retired).

Over the years, plenty of WITSU teams and their candidates have either watched this forum closely or posted in it. Even this year the forum has been talk about around WITSU and the college. Its very likely that people thinking of running this term are also reading this forum and some may even be amongst us regular posters but will never admit it. So, lets start with a topic covering the run up to the elections and if it goes well we can try get respective candidates onto interact with members.

What do you want to see from the new WITSU Team? Do you feel that maybe the current and previous teams have continually neglected a certain area? Post your thoughts and lets get the debate going.

We welcome speculation on possible candidates putting their name into the hat. Ill start with - no, I am not running for WITSU despite the idea being suggested for some daft reason. :P

Mod Note:
Remember folks, read the forum charter:-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=20530

Lets not get personal.

Sunny86

Former WIT student here, thing that really annoys me about students union
all over the country is you often get people with political ambitions beyond the college and this is a bad thing in my opinion as they often use their position to promote political parties within colleges. So i hope nobody from any youth wings of politcial parties get elected.
External Politics should be kept seperate from SU

Sully

Sunny86 wrote: »

Former WIT student here, thing that really annoys me about students union
all over the country is you often get people with political ambitions beyond the college and this is a bad thing in my opinion as they often use their position to promote political parties within colleges. So i hope nobody from any youth wings of politcial parties get elected.
External Politics should be kept seperate from SU

A good point and I have yet to see this occur in WIT anyway. Curious though, what examples have you based on other SUs?

MitchKoobski

Its a small gripe but I'd like to see candidates from every department of the college. It seems last year the candidates were from one big social group bar a few, and voting wasn't really promoted as well as it could be.
The union needs fresh faces is basically what I'm trying to say. Conor Doyle left his position only to be replaced by Paddy waiting in the wings, so getting brand new people in as candidates wouldn't be so bad.
That being said, Paul O' Dea has done a fantastic job so far, so more from him would be welcomed.

Sully

MitchKoobski wrote: »

Its a small gripe but I'd like to see candidates from every department of the college. It seems last year the candidates were from one big social group bar a few, and voting wasn't really promoted as well as it could be.
The union needs fresh faces is basically what I'm trying to say. Conor Doyle left his position only to be replaced by Paddy waiting in the wings, so getting brand new people in as candidates wouldn't be so bad.
That being said, Paul O' Dea has done a fantastic job so far, so more from him would be welcomed.

Conor Doyle, I believe, is being paid to do RAG week with Paddy. An excellent line up we have IMO. Conor has done some excellent work while under the role previously also.

Yossarian_Lives

Sunny86 wrote: »

Former WIT student here, thing that really annoys me about students union
all over the country is you often get people with political ambitions beyond the college and this is a bad thing in my opinion as they often use their position to promote political parties within colleges. So i hope nobody from any youth wings of politcial parties get elected.
External Politics should be kept seperate from SU

its only natural that those who are interested/invloved in politics will get invloved in SU elections, personally i prefer them to the SU lackies that as sombody else said are "waiting in the wings", who will really do nothing new and just slightly improve what has been done before.

also if they even try to premote their own party i a substantial way such as funding etc they will be caught by class reps or Clubs and SOcs etc.

like Colm Murhy is a member of YFG and im sure has other political ambitions outside the college but he in my opinion has done little to promote YFG in the WIT. most of the work was done by ppl like robbie flynn, sully and others, am im not mistaken?

celica00wd

We have a new candidate with no ulterior motives, no political connections and absolutely no other reason to to run for the office other than to offer something new fresh and dynamic to the student body of WIT.

The candidate of which i speak is planning on declaring his intentions to stand for election in the coming days.

This candidate shall be representing the School of Business, the largest in the college and one that has not been represented sufficiently in recent years.

Watch this space for an announcement.

Sunny86

Sully wrote: »

A good point and I have yet to see this occur in WIT anyway. Curious though, what examples have you based on other SUs?

Have alot of friends who are/were in students union, and often heard them complaining about people from youth wings, apart from using the SU for self/party publicity. It very often is the case that what students union is fighting for is the opposite of what a political party in government might be trying to achieve. Conflicts of interest will occur.
Its hypocritical at times to be supporting the party you will be fighting once they are in power. You can't fight and serve.

Canvas for Fine Fail one week then protest about them introducing fees the next.
Brown nose Mr Kenny in WIT this week and then have to fight fine Gael because of changes he makes if he get into power, Its simply hypocritical.

Sully

Sunny86 wrote: »

Have alot of friends who are/were in students union, and often heard them complaining about people from youth wings, apart from using the SU for self/party publicity. It very often is the case that what students union is fighting for is the opposite of what a political party in government might be trying to achieve. Conflicts of interest will occur.
Its hypocritical at times to be supporting the party you will be fighting once they are in power. You can't fight and serve.

Canvas for Fine Fail one week then protest about them introducing fees the next.
Brown nose Mr Kenny in WIT this week and then have to fight fine Gael because of changes he makes if he get into power, Its simply hypocritical.

Out of all the youth political groups iv experienced - id say this is a Fianna Fail issue (I cant say in the 5 years I have been in WIT at least, I have seen them do much) especially since they have been in power for so long. At the end of the day - regardless of who is in government, you will always have a group that is not satisfied. Even the best government in the world would upset someone. Thats just how life works. In addition, YFG or Ogra FF/SF or Young Labour - whoever - will not always support every view by the party. So if its fees - Ogra FF may not agree and campaign against it but support the government on other policies.

I guess one of the reasons why a SU would not like other political societies is because they are so similar - the only main difference is SU bodies are not representing a political party (usually). Some political societies do fight just as hard as SU bodies to bring change within a college and not just external matters such as fees. Despite political societies being an actual extra support branch for the SU bodies (if they agree on a campaign together) many of them despise each other because they simply wont work together.

I see no reason why political parties and SU bodies can not join forces to fight a campaign. It shows no political allegiance and just shows all groups fighting in common for the same thing.

Jayo4Prez

Ran in the NUI Maynooth elections myself. From my experience, the only advantage that you have if you are a member of a political party is that, generally, you get to canvass for local election candidates and Dáil candidates and this experience does serve you well in an election like this. Stuff like colour association, which mightn't seem that important, played a huge part in our elections. Simple linkages like that are hugely effectual. Lads who have taken part in local or general elections know this stuff, giving them a clear advantage.

dlofnep

I'd like to see an Irish Language officer position created. It exists in most colleges around Ireland, but none that I'm aware of in WIT. I would nominate myself for the role, but I'm finished in WIT in a few weeks.

Sully

The campaigns for elections have begun, all interested individuals have put themselves forward and received the required amount of nomination signatures. The posters are now up promoting each candidate for the various positions. The planned election date is Tuesday, 14th.

However, concerns are now arising over how these elections are being conducted. Following on complaints from concerned class representatives, and the president of the Law Society, WIT Young Fine Gael have established that the elections are currently operating in direct contravention with WITSU Constitution. In addition, it seems that last years elections were also operating in direct contravention with WITSU Constitution which raises questions about the current WITSU team and there ability to serve in office.

WIT Young Fine Gael and The President of the Law Society have written to the Board of Appeals of the Union and asked them to meet and deal with the issues that have arisen. The constitutional issues and allegations that are being made against WITSU are of a very serious nature and therefore must be investigated in the best interest of WIT Students.

While other allegations have surfaced with regards to expenses and lack of accounts over the last two years - these claims are currently without foundation but requests have been made for the accounts so the claims can either be proven or rubbished, whichever it maybe. They will also be looked at by the meeting of the Board of Appeals.

A statement was released yesterday by Pat McKee, The President of the Law Society.

To whom it may concern,

The importance of the WITSU Constitution cannot be underestimated; it is the document that sets out clearly the constitutional position of our Union. The WITSU Constitution is the document that protects both students and union representatives from unfair attack and unfair procedures. Furthermore, it is the document that ensures that no, one individual, has the authority to decide everything; it acts as a safety-block against any form of authoritarian control. It respects the independence of the Class Rep Council, the Executive, and the Presidency. This separation of powers maintains a system of democracy that upholds the rights of all parties involved.

As a Class Representative, I have been taken aback by the complete ignorance to particular constitutional provision such as the requirement to hold AGM’s or the requirement to produce financial accounts to the Class Rep Council. Not only are these most fundamental provisions not being adhered to, they’re totally ignored by those in high office. This form of constitutional illiteracy is not only unacceptable; it is an insult. It is an insult to those of us who respect the office of the WITSU President. It is an insult to those of us who act as class representatives, and importantly, it is an insult to our Union.
I believe the current procedural irregularities in relation to the upcoming WITSU elections go to the very heart of student democracy in WIT. These irregularities have serious consequences for any outcome to the proposed election and therefore require immediate action.

As an individual who believes in the democratic process, I feel that we should protect and respect our constitution. We should ensure that those who hold office abide by the provisions contained within; this is in the best interests of students.
__________________________
Patrick McKee
Class Representative, BA (Hons) Legal Studies with Business
(President WIT Law Society)

A statement from WIT Young Fine Gael will be made available in the coming days. A spokesperson for the group had this to say when asked to comment on the reports:-

"In recent weeks, concerns about the running of the WIT Students Union were brought to our attention. We are currently carrying out our own investigation into these claims and will make a full statement on the matter shortly.

We can confirm that, yes, we have requested the Board of Appeals of the Union meet over our initial findings in regards to irregularities with the running of the WIT Student Union election this year and last.

WIT Young Fine Gael will have no further comment to make until a full statement is released."

MitchKoobski

well NOW the elections have got interesting

KeelanM90

IMO its absolute bull bringing this up! It doesn't change anything about the elections! If theres not time to hold an AGM to pick a returning officer to run the elections then I don't see a problem after all from being involved in numerous campaigns I would have said that they are run excellently and have found that everything is being strictly controlled! My personal experience of the individual is that he's quite bitter and spiteful! I understand about the whole not breaching the constitution but honestly this is just too far! Like what exactly is proposed to fix the situation

Sully

KeelanM90 wrote: »

IMO its absolute bull bringing this up! It doesn't change anything about the elections! If theres not time to hold an AGM to pick a returning officer to run the elections then I don't see a problem after all from being involved in numerous campaigns I would have said that they are run excellently and have found that everything is being strictly controlled! My personal experience of the individual is that he's quite bitter and spiteful! I understand about the whole not breaching the constitution but honestly this is just too far! Like what exactly is proposed to fix the situation

You could still hold the AGM and then just grant a special exemption in terms of time limits - but that would be for the Board of Appeals to decide. The last two years no AGM was held and the constitution which WIT Students voted in a referendum a number of years ago is being constantly ignored and is effectively worthless because nobody is enforcing it. No accounts, reports, rules on display and so on. With reports of a referendum on the student center being held around the same time - its clear the constitution articles covering that will be blatantly disregarded.

Things are changing now and WIT YFG at least want to ensure that the constitution is adhered to and if its not working then proposed changes in a referendum to the WIT Students for them to decide. Pat is in his final year but wants to ensure, as president of the Law Society, that the constitution is adhered to - we have a new union body coming in June so its important they know exactly about the constitution and that it must be adhered to. Its more then just an election - its about the protection of an important document and ensuring that its not fully abused leading to disciplinary procedures from the board against Union members. Its also your money they are spending, after all.

WIT YFG have no personal issues with any members of the union, never had and never will. We get on, generally speaking, on a personal and professional level with them. The constitution cant be ignored, it is being and nobody but the Board of Appeals which has been called to meet can do anything about it. With regards to Pat, I believe its the same personally from speaking with him but I wont speak on his behalf here anyway.

I personally do not like the way the union are ignoring the constitution and are doing nothing (despite repeated communication about the issue over the last two weeks) about resolving the issue. Therefore, I would urge more students become aware of the issue and make their voices heard - its your union, your constitution and its your right that its being taken aboard and fully adhered to.

There is an awful lot more to this story then posted here but I for one wont be making any accusations/allegations without having a decent foundation. Other items related to this will be revealed in the weeks ahead.

KeelanM90

Sully wrote: »

You could still hold the AGM and then just grant a special exemption in terms of time limits - but that would be for the Board of Appeals to decide.

Would that mean elections being held over exams/study week/summer?

Sully wrote: »

The last two years no AGM was held and the constitution which WIT Students voted in a referendum a number of years ago is being constantly ignored and is effectively worthless because nobody is enforcing it.

Now thats a huge overstatement. The constitution is not constantly being ignored, this is the one time we've ever heard of and in my opinion it was the only option to ensure that all candidates have a fair and equal opportunity when running for office. One decision does not render the constitution useless

Sully wrote: »

Its more then just an election - its about the protection of an important document and ensuring that its not fully abused leading to disciplinary procedures from the board against Union members. Its also your money they are spending, after all.

Yes i understand that it should be protected but after a more than eventful college term the union members were left with little or no options! To think that people feel that disciplinary actions should be taken against them is beyond ridiculous after all they were only trying to ensure every member of the student body had their opportunity to vote!

Sully wrote: »

I personally do not like the way the union are ignoring the constitution and are doing nothing (despite repeated communication about the issue over the last two weeks) about resolving the issue. Therefore, I would urge more students become aware of the issue and make their voices heard - its your union, your constitution and its your right that its being taken aboard and fully adhered to.

Patrick posted a number of times on facebook about the matter and very little interest has been shown most people recognize that the union members won't benefit from this and therefore don't feel its a matter of concern

Sully

KeelanM90 wrote: »

Would that mean elections being held over exams/study week/summer?

Doubtful. We have, what, two weeks when we go back? Depending on when the board meets and decides - it could easily be done as a way of compromising (constitution states "the board of appeal shall determine their own procedures based on the laws of natural justice" - so that should allow for it to be held within a tighter time frame)

Now thats a huge overstatement. The constitution is not constantly being ignored, this is the one time we've ever heard of and in my opinion it was the only option to ensure that all candidates have a fair and equal opportunity when running for office. One decision does not render the constitution useless

It has been two years, thats not an overstatement. Students should be entitled to a copy of the accounts and they have not been made available - whats to hide? The constitution has many breaches and could put motions passed in union into disarray. You only heard of it now because nobody ever took action against it before and let it be walked all over. Plus, to the best of my recollection, previous WITSU bodies before the current and last held everything correctly under the constitution. So its the last two years issues have arose and your only hearing about a summary here on Boards.

The excuse of time and fairness/equality does not come into it (and I would question that statement as the election rules were breached and nothing was done about it) because an AGM could have been called this year and last. The officer could be elected, lay down the rules and leave them around college as per constitution. There was time for all of that and for the executive to decide on a date for the elections (as per constitution) and not any signal individual. If WITSU could not keep a track of time and have an organised body doing things as they should be - I would seriously question the individual(s) ability to hold the positions they have (even if its illegal). The constitution is a very important document - work with it and prioritize to do everything correctly.

Yes i understand that it should be protected but after a more than eventful college term the union members were left with little or no options! To think that people feel that disciplinary actions should be taken against them is beyond ridiculous after all they were only trying to ensure every member of the student body had their opportunity to vote!

If the WITSU body let one issue - which was resolved fairly quickly in the end - take over the whole running of the office so much so they could not carry out the rest of their duty's as bound by the constitution then they should not be in office at all. The dispute which the union were involved in trying to sort did not take up ALL of the time. There was plenty of time to call for an AGM and sort everything out constitutional over the last two years. There are three sabbatical officers in charge of that union and I firmly believe they could have organised things to allow for the constitution be adhered to.

Besides all that, the WITSU body is there to protect students and carry out duties such as helping to resolve the dispute between the college/TUI etc. Its their purpose. Its what a student union body is supposed to do. Yet, you seem to think if them carrying out their tasks we elected them to do (as every other college in this country does) means they can not carry out their tasks constitutional - then the system is broken in WIT as its clearly not an issue in any other college. But we know that is not the case because every other WITSU body before the one of the last two terms was able to handle both without any problem. Therefore, it comes down to the current union.
(I am blaming the whole union as I wont point fingers at any one person who may/may not be responsible.)

Patrick posted a number of times on facebook about the matter and very little interest has been shown most people recognize that the union members won't benefit from this and therefore don't feel its a matter of concern

I'm not sure who approached Patrick after that, but YFG got calls from people about it. Indeed, they had calls external from the college about this. There were people very close to WITSU who are not happy judging by what I see and hear. Since the YFG initial statement went out, more inquiries have came in from students who are not on Pats facebook page and are none the wiser.

The above is only a fraction of a much bigger issue that has come to light, and those who are concerned just want to ensure that the union are not being accused of things that are unfounded. Until they are proven, like the breach of constitution, then nothing will be said. This has been proven, a constitutional breach has occured and those who raised the issue do not have an axe to grind and just want this approached fairly and correctly as per (as our constitution says) the "laws of natural justice". There is nothing personal from the YFG side anyway and I personally believe Pat is doing his job without prejudice.

Sully

KeelanM90 wrote: »

IMO its absolute bull bringing this up! It doesn't change anything about the elections! If theres not time to hold an AGM to pick a returning officer to run the elections then I don't see a problem after all from being involved in numerous campaigns I would have said that they are run excellently and have found that everything is being strictly controlled! My personal experience of the individual is that he's quite bitter and spiteful! I understand about the whole not breaching the constitution but honestly this is just too far! Like what exactly is proposed to fix the situation

Mod Note:

Putting my mod hat on here but can we avoid personal attacks - as per the forum charter, it also covers students and the like. Its a relatively new guideline but just be aware of it anyway

KeelanM90

Sully wrote: »

Doubtful. We have, what, two weeks when we go back? Depending on when the board meets and decides - it could easily be done as a way of compromising (constitution states "the board of appeal shall determine their own procedures based on the laws of natural justice" - so that should allow for it to be held within a tighter time frame)

But what if it isn't held within the college year. Between the candidates alone they have spent roughly 3000 euro. Now please tell me why it is acceptable to put campaigns at risk because of a situation that is completely out of their control? Everyone recognizes that this isn't going to mean that any individual is just going to waltz into the union positions regardless of results!

Guys,
upcoming WITSU Election is currently operating in direct contravention with WITSU Constitution. Consequence of this is that any person elected on the proposed date of the 14th of April will hold an illegitimate office and will not be entitled to exercise their official powers or draw a salary. I have brought this to the attention of the WITSU President and I am not satisfied with her response. As it stands the election cannot be held on the propsed date. I would suggest you ask President for copy of constitution, read articles regarding returning officer and elections. Its black and white.
Patrick McKee,
WIT Law Society President.
Class Representative.

Above in Patrick's statement I hold serious issue with how Patrick states that any member elected will hold illegitimate office. These people work hard to get the signatures to run for office let alone hold a campaign. To go and say something like that in my eyes is outrageous. There is no-one running for office that could possibly benefit from this or change this situation and to go and say it like that just makes it sound as if they're cheating their way in!

Sully wrote: »

It has been two years, thats not an overstatement. Students should be entitled to a copy of the accounts and they have not been made available - whats to hide? The constitution has many breaches and could put motions passed in union into disarray. You only heard of it now because nobody ever took action against it before and let it be walked all over.

I've been following this at least a week and its only one decision to ensure the smooth running of elections so I believe that going and saying they're walking all over the constitution is a huge overstatement

Sully wrote: »

If the WITSU body let one issue - which was resolved fairly quickly in the end - take over the whole running of the office so much so they could not carry out the rest of their duty's as bound by the constitution then they should not be in office at all.

The results issue did not get resolved quickly it required at least two weeks of WITSU staff members staying back late, something which they were never commended for. Along with this they've dealt with delays in grants along with a number of other issues!

Sully wrote: »

The above is only a fraction of a much bigger issue that has come to light, and those who are concerned just want to ensure that the union are not being accused of things that are unfounded.

To be fair this "much bigger issue" should be pushed aside until more emerges about because no-one has been found guilty of anything so in my opinion it shouldn't be recognized as part of the debate. I just feel its unfair to go and leave something hanging there for rumors to emerge.

As regards personal attacks i apologize won't happen again!:)

ec18

anyone know what the audi a3 is like to drive?

sparkling sea

Guys,
upcoming WITSU Election is currently operating in direct contravention with WITSU Constitution. Consequence of this is that any person elected on the proposed date of the 14th of April will hold an illegitimate office and will not be entitled to exercise their official powers or draw a salary. I have brought this to the attention of the WITSU President and I am not satisfied with her response. As it stands the election cannot be held on the propsed date. I would suggest you ask President for copy of constitution, read articles regarding returning officer and elections. Its black and white.
Patrick McKee,
WIT Law Society President.
Class Representative

KeelanM90 wrote: »

Above in Patrick's statement I hold serious issue with how Patrick states that any member elected will hold illegitimate office. These people work hard to get the signatures to run for office let alone hold a campaign. To go and say something like that in my eyes is outrageous. There is no-one running for office that could possibly benefit from this or change this situation and to go and say it like that just makes it sound as if they're cheating their way in!

It would appear from Pats statement that proper procedure is not being followed and therefore the SU would be working outside agreed and proper procedure as contained in the articles.

Why are you being emotive, why is it outrageous to conduct the elections in a legal way and according to the agreed terms. Its more outrageous to want to conduct them under made up and illegal terms surely.

The Constitution, articles and procedures are there for a reason - Have you learnt nothing form the mistakes made by all sorts of organisations in this country who used emotive reasoning to work outside regulations.

I would also suggested that the SU should get some advice on adminstration law as it would appear that they (a) may not understand how it operates and (b) could do with the advice so the can run the elections properly.

MitchKoobski

While I understand the point of view that the candidates have put a lot of time and effort into their campaigns, and that its going to be very difficult to get it all sorted out, you can't ignore the fact that the constitution isn't being followed.
I'm sure any of the candidates would agree that in order to be properly elected they would have to properly follow the constitution written out by the SU.
They can't expect to be properly elected when the actual elections were set up without the correct procedure. It sucks that its come about now, but if it doesn't get sorted out it will happen again.

sparkling sea

MitchKoobski wrote: »

While I understand the point of view that the candidates have put a lot of time and effort into their campaigns, and that its going to be very difficult to get it all sorted out, you can't ignore the fact that the constitution isn't being followed.
I'm sure any of the candidates would agree that in order to be properly elected they would have to properly follow the constitution written out by the SU.
They can't expect to be properly elected when the actual elections were set up without the correct procedure. It sucks that its come about now, but if it doesn't get sorted out it will happen again.

If only the elections were run for the good of the candidates and not the whole student body

The SU committee should have been aware of the issues to begin with, they should only work within the powers given to them under the articles. It is there job to be aware of the powers they have so that they don't operate outside these powers. It is a bit scary if its the case that an elected body are not aware of what they can and can't do.

Sully

ec18 wrote: »

anyone know what the audi a3 is like to drive?

While one of the rumours, its unfounded as the accounts have not been made available. I don't think its fair to throw accusations against the WITSU team without having proof tbh - especially such an allegation. Time will tell, the accounts have been requested and it will be checked. Until then, lets just stick with the facts on the constitution.

CT1

KeelanM90 wrote: »

......... My personal experience of the individual is that he's quite bitter and spiteful! ..........

Am new to this boards business, but I know most of the people involved in this issue.

Quick question, is it not true that the deputy president of the students union actually lives with Pat Mckee?

Sully

CT1 wrote: »

Am new to this boards business, but I know most of the people involved in this issue.

Quick question, is it not true that the deputy president of the students union actually lives with Pat Mckee?

The issues in question actually all lie with the President of WITSU. Looking at the constitution, the accounts and constitution enforcement all boiled down to the job of WITSU President.

From speaking with the deputy president, he has offered no comment (on or off the record - and has kept it that way) and likewise all the SU sabbatical officers have done same. The relationship Pat has with him while living together allows these issues to be "left at the door" as they say.

The WITSU president met with Pat when the concerns were first outlined and despite repeated requests for further communication - the next form of communication was just saying things will remain as is and no AGM will be called and the constitution will not be enforced. That has been it since, about a week ago maybe less.

WITYFG have received no communication from the WITSU president as it stands, despite requests for urgent contact.

sparkling sea

Why aren't the other committee members and/or class reps calling for an EGM to deal with the lack of an AGM - if there is a lack of an AGM?

Can the President refuse to call an AGM or is she working outside of her powers if she refuses to do so?

Will anyone really challenge the SU if they are not doing what they are meant to be doing - no matter how far they stray form their remit?

I am not saying the SU are doing anything wrong, I have no idea if they are or not, but if they were is Pat the only person who would call them on it?

Sully

sparkling sea wrote: »

Why aren't the other committee members and/or class reps calling for an EGM to deal with the lack of an AGM - if there is a lack of an AGM?

A member of the executive has actually called for a meeting of the WITSU team, the executive and the complainants. This was called tonight and I just got a phone call telling me the WITSU president has agreed to the meeting and will attend it. Its a public meeting but the location has not been confirmed - but its 6pm tomorrow. Anyone who attends will hear both sides and have a chance to comment.

As regards to before, I would imagine there has been disquiet and concern amongst the union and election candidates but its been relatively quiet. I assume the meeting tomorrow is being called.

Can the President refuse to call an AGM or is she working outside of her powers if she refuses to do so?

She can and I believe she will. It will be the Board of Appeals decide if she is correct in her reasons for not calling an AGM and ignoring the constitution.

Will anyone really challenge the SU if they are not doing what they are meant to be doing - no matter how far they stray form their remit?

I am not saying the SU are doing anything wrong, I have no idea if they are or not, but if they were is Pat the only person who would call them on it?

WIT Young Fine Gael have backed and re-iterated Pats call, also submitted their own request to the relevant bodies for the Board of Appeals to meet and are working very closely to ensure that everything is legitimate and above board. Its not just Pat and when Pat is finished at the end of the year, WIT YFG will remain on in WIT and will continue to represent the students in the best way it can.

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

A member of the executive has actually called for a meeting of the WITSU team, the executive and the complainants. This was called tonight and I just got a phone call telling me the WITSU president has agreed to the meeting and will attend it. Its a public meeting but the location has not been confirmed - but its 6pm tomorrow. Anyone who attends will hear both sides and have a chance to comment.

Well this is very good news - a touch of democracy at least

Sully wrote: »

She can and I believe she will. It will be the Board of Appeals decide if she is correct in her reasons for not calling an AGM and ignoring the constitution.

What exactly allows her to do this - who makes up the Board of Appeals?

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

WIT Young Fine Gael have backed and re-iterated Pats call, also submitted their own request to the relevant bodies for the Board of Appeals to meet and are working very closely to ensure that everything is legitimate and above board. Its not just Pat and when Pat is finished at the end of the year, WIT YFG will remain on in WIT and will continue to represent the students in the best way it can.

Pat must be loving the YFG backing:D

Sully

sparkling sea wrote: »

What exactly allows her to do this - who makes up the Board of Appeals?

The Board of Appeals is made up of:-
Union Solicitor retained by the Union Executive
A nominee of the College Director
A nominee of the Governing Body of the college
A former Sabbatical officer to be co-opted by the other members of the Board of Appeals.
A nominee of the TUI (Teachers Union of Ireland) from the college.

sparkling sea wrote: »

Pat must be loving the YFG backing:D

All supporting the same cause, great politics can be left aside.

Sully

This is what WIT Young Fine Gael have released today.

“WIT Young Fine Gael concerned over WITSU election irregularities”

WIT Young Fine Gael (YFG) have called for an urgent meeting of the Board of Appeals of the WIT Student Union (WITSU) following an investigation into alleged breaches of the WITSU constitution and concerns made in regards to the lack of accounts a being made available to the student union body over the last two years. Initial findings indicate that the elections that are currently operating are being done in direct contravention of the WITSU Constitution. In addition, the WIT Students Union is believed to be holding an illegitimate office for the last two years – following breaches of the constitution in relation to the running of elections. As a result of these findings and with the Student Union elections looming - WIT Young Fine Gael have called for an urgent meeting of the Board of Appeals of the union.

WITSU sabbatical officers are paid around €22,360 annually. The office of WITSU president handles the starter budget which is around €280,000 a year. WIT Young Fine Gael feels that is important that all elected officials, who are drawing a wage and handling large enough budgets, at least can work on the basic office duties such as adhering to the WITSU constitution which was voted in some years ago by WIT Students by means of a referendum.

Commenting on the issues, WIT Young Fine Gael PRO Sinead McDermott said;
“It is important that the WITSU constitution is upheld to ensure a fair, transparent and completely above board election but also to ensure that this document is not ignored by future WITSU officers and is fully adhered to. In addition, it goes without saying that it is also in the best interest of both WIT students and the hopeful candidates that are running for a coveted place in the next WIT Students Union officer term.”

WIT Young Fine Gael today call on the WIT Student Union president, Cathy Pembroke, to immediately call for an Annual General Meeting (AGM) as required under the constitution and revert any decisions taken surrounding the running of the WITSU elections that breach the constitution. We also seek for the immediate publication of the WITSU accounts of the last two years which have not yet been made available.

“One of the better examples regarding constitutional issues would be that a returning officer has not yet been appointed. However, the election guidelines are done, the election date is set, and candidates are already making their pitch to the students. None of these can be formally done without the appointment of said officer as per constitution. It opens the door to a candidate who loses, to then appeal on the above grounds and overturn the result. These issues need to be address without any unnecessary delay in accordance to the procedure in the constitution. The returning officer must also, when appointed, quickly set about ensuring the elections are run correctly and fairly in the interest of both the students and candidates. It’s the only way forward.” said Miss. McDermott.

Ends../

Contact:
Kevin O’Sullivan
WIT Young Fine Gael Chairperson
chairperson@wityfg.ie

Sinead McDermott
WIT Young Fine Gael PRO
pro@wityfg.ie

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

The Board of Appeals is made up of:-
Union Solicitor retained by the Union Executive
A nominee of the College Director
A nominee of the Governing Body of the college
A former Sabbatical officer to be co-opted by the other members of the Board of Appeals.
A nominee of the TUI (Teachers Union of Ireland) from the college.

Would the members of the Board of Appeals be considered to be objective ?

Can anyone tell me what clause, etc, allows for the refusal of the AGM - its very strange - why would it even exist

Sully

sparkling sea wrote: »

Would the members of the Board of Appeals be considered to be objective ?

There as independent you can get (within the college) for a body to listen to concerns about WITSU anyway.

Can anyone tell me what clause, etc, allows for the refusal of the AGM - its very strange - why would it even exist

There is nothing in the constitution that allows for the refusal. We will see tonight what the exact reasons are for such a refusal.

Sully

Following the announcement of the meeting, just another YFG comment.

“WIT Young Fine Gael welcomes public meeting on WITSU election concerns”

WIT Young Fine Gael (YFG) have today welcomed the announcement that WIT Students Union will today hold a public meeting on the concerns raised over the election irregularities. The news follows WIT YFGs call for an urgent meeting of the Board of Appeals of the Union over findings into alleged breaches of the WITSU constitution by WIT Young Fine Gael and additional concerns about WITSU accounts.

Commenting on the announcement, WIT Young Fine Gael PRO Sinead McDermott said;

“We are delighted that WITSU have responded to our call and agreed to hold a public meeting on the concerns. We hope that this meeting will help clarify the concerns raised by WIT YFG and others in relation to the elections and the accounts. However, we still stress the importance of the Board of Appeals of the union meeting as a matter of urgency on the concerns raised and allow them decide what course of action needs to be taken”

The meeting will be held tonight at 6pm, a venue has yet to be confirmed. Members of the WITSU Executive, WIT Young Fine Gael and other complainants will be in attendance to voice their concerns. The meeting will be chaired by a member of the WITSU executive.

Ends../

Contact:
Kevin O’Sullivan
WIT Young Fine Gael Chairperson
chairperson@wityfg.ie

Sinead McDermott
WIT Young Fine Gael PRO
pro@wityfg.ie

Ill post up the event location when I know it. All are welcome and if your interested to know more, do attend.

CT1

Sully wrote: »

This is what WIT Young Fine Gael have released today........It opens the door to a candidate who loses, to then appeal on the above grounds and overturn the result......

So, just say things stay as they are - no AGM, returning officer selected by the few in power. Elections go ahead as planned. Candidate "B" fails to get elected. Candidate "B" can cancel out the whole election on appeal?

Sure how cool is that?:cool:

Sully

CT1 wrote: »

So, just say things stay as they are - no AGM, returning officer selected by the few in power. Elections go ahead as planned. Candidate "B" fails to get elected. Candidate "B" can cancel out the whole election on appeal?

Sure how cool is that?:cool:

So it seems alright. Plus, I don't see how any candidate in the last two elections could not have done the same (could probably still try but a bit pointless).

ec18

hmmmm one would almost think a member of yfg was on the boards


surely a public meeting would be better next week when the college is open and more people are back from the easter break?

i call shenanigans! :P

WAFFLES10

seems to me that its all a smokescreen for incompetance

CT1

ec18 wrote: »

a public meeting would be better next week when the college is open and more people are back

It seems that constitutional issues are already complicated enough for union members and a few interested parties to comprehend.

Waiting to have more people next week would result in more people being confused and considering that the attention span of the average student is short an extended discussion wouldn't be productive as most students and some of the class reps just want to party not discuss important issues.

I know the above statement will generate attacks from all angles but its the truth.

In any case there will be an AGM to prove me correct!!!:p

Sully

ec18 wrote: »

surely a public meeting would be better next week when the college is open and more people are back from the easter break?

i call shenanigans! :P

Timing was of the essence due to the time frame involved but more information on an opportunity for students to voice their concerns will be released tomorrow.

sparkling sea

I am still lost as to what instrument allows the President to refuse to hold an AGM. If there is isn't one then she can't refuse ?

Has anyone asked for clarification of the rule allowing her to refuse ?

Also what rule allows for the overriding of the Consititution - if this rule and the criteria need to apply this rule dosen't exist then it can't be done. Have the SU committee given anyone clear information on this matter ? Surely if they are in breach of the Constitution and they have be made aware of the point but continue to act in an illegal fashion then there dismissal is automatic. There must be something that states this.

Sully

sparkling sea wrote: »

I am still lost as to what instrument allows the President to refuse to hold an AGM. If there is isn't one then she can't refuse ?

Has anyone asked for clarification of the rule allowing her to refuse ?

Also what rule allows for the overriding of the Consititution - if this rule and the criteria need to apply this rule dosen't exist then it can't be done. Have the SU committee given anyone clear information on this matter ? Surely if they are in breach of the Constitution and they have be made aware of the point but continue to act in an illegal fashion then there dismissal is automatic. There must be something that states this.

The issue was that of "precedent" - because it was being ignored before her term in office she believes she can continue ignoring it when she gets in office. Thats her argument at yesterdays meeting, which I have minutes from both the person taking them for YFG and for WITSU confirming it was not just me hearing things.

In addition, one other example of ignoring the constitution (minor enough, but still) was the lack of Class Rep Council which is required every month. She put the blame on the Deputy President/Education officer but I pressed her on the issue as it states clearly its her job to call it. She claims on occasions she did, and left the blame with the Deputy President for not going about it (rather insulting to talk about the competence of your colleague in a public meeting, whom I think has done a wonderful job all things considered). For the remaining occasions, she can not recall if she requested a meeting every month. Ill call it the Bertie Syndrome.

sparkling sea

Sully wrote: »

The issue was that of "precedent" - because it was being ignored before her term in office she believes she can continue ignoring it when she gets in office. Thats her argument at yesterdays meeting, which I have minutes from both the person taking them for YFG and for WITSU confirming it was not just me hearing things.

In addition, one other example of ignoring the constitution (minor enough, but still) was the lack of Class Rep Council which is required every month. She put the blame on the Deputy President/Education officer but I pressed her on the issue as it states clearly its her job to call it. She claims on occasions she did, and left the blame with the Deputy President for not going about it (rather insulting to talk about the competence of your colleague in a public meeting, whom I think has done a wonderful job all things considered). For the remaining occasions, she can not recall if she requested a meeting every month. Ill call it the Bertie Syndrome.

But if the Constitution does not allow for this, then wasn't the original precedent that was set incorrect to begin with, and because of this all actions taken following an incorrect precedent must be deemed to be incorrect?

Doesn't the buck stop with the President - doesn't she have ultimate responsilbity and is therefor ultimately accountable?

What did the Deputy President make of being blamed ?

Bertie Syndrome love it

Sully

sparkling sea wrote: »

But if the Constitution does not allow for this, then wasn't the original precedent that was set incorrect to begin with, and because of this all actions taken following an incorrect precedent must be deemed to be incorrect?

Doesn't the buck stop with the President - doesn't she have ultimate responsilbity and is therefor ultimately accountable?

What did the Deputy President make of being blamed ?

Bertie Syndrome love it

Overall, as I said yesterday at the meeting, I would prefer there was no "spirit of the constitution" or "precedent" and that the job was just got on with in accordance with the constitution. Therefore, regardless of what others did wrong before, WITSU should not carry on the same approach and continue to make a mockery of both the system and the constitution. There is no need. They can set a new standard, be a better union and be recognized as the union who respected the students, the laws of their job and the piece of paper that is known as the constitution which they agreed to abide by when running for election (as all candidates do).

Deputy President had no comment to make. Cant say I blame him tbh, completely landed in it unfairly.

Sully

WIT Young Fine Gael propose guidelines for upcoming WITSU elections

Following a public meeting yesterday between the WIT Student Union (WITSU), WIT Young Fine Gael (YFG) and other interested parties, WIT YFG have today released their own proposal document on addressing the constitutional crisis that is currently facing WITSU. The document, which been submitted to the WITSU executive and will also be given to the Board of Appeals of the Union, sets about addressing the main area of contention that is the running of the WITSU elections.

The meeting, which was held in the WIT boardroom, was chaired by a member of the WITSU executive and gave the opportunity for all parties to raise their concerns with the WITSU team while giving the opportunity for the WITSU President to respond.

Following the meeting, WIT YFG has again re-iterated their call for the Board of Appeals of the union to meet as a matter of great urgency. Speaking after the meeting, WIT YFG Chairperson Kevin O’Sullivan said;

“We had hoped that today’s meeting would be more productive and address the concerns we raised. However, we are now more concerned than prior to this meeting following the statement by the WITSU president that the constitution was ignored because of a “precedent” and the questioning of her deputy president’s ability to call class rep council meetings. Even more concerning was the “Bertie Syndrome” – being unable to recall if she requested a class representative council each month as required by the constitution.

As a result, we still feel the Board of Appeals of Union is the only option for addressing our concerns. We will be putting together our own proposal on addressing the issues which will be submitted to both WITSU and the Board of Appeals.”

WIT Young Fine Gael hopes that the issue is soon resolved in a “fair and transparent manner in the interests of WIT Students and the candidates running for elections.”

The proposal document can be downloaded here; http://www.wityfg.ie/WITYFG_WITSU_Proposals.pdf


Ends../
Contact:
Kevin O’Sullivan
WIT Young Fine Gael Chairperson
chairperson@wityfg.ie

Sinead McDermott
WIT Young Fine Gael PRO
pro@wityfg.ie

Attached is the document. Guess we will have to wait and see what happens from here. It seems that for calling a Board of Appeals you must go via the WITSU President (so was said yesterday) first. It seems the YFG initial request was not acted upon by her so another request has been sent in.

CT1

Sully wrote: »

Overall, as I said yesterday at the meeting, I would prefer there was no "spirit of the constitution" or "precedent" QUOTE]

I have an almost complete disregard of precedent and a faith in the possibility of something better. It irritates me to be told how things always have been done. ... I defy the tyranny of precedent. I cannot afford the luxury of a closed mind. I go for anything new that might improve the past.
- Clara Barton

Clara Barton was founder and first President of the American Red Cross.


The advice to the WITSU President is to harness the opportunity being given to her, now, by the challengers of the constitutional issues with regard to elections.

To thank them for giving her the opportunity to put things right for future generations. If not the long term consequences are unknown... it will be precedent that the President got it wrong...

WAFFLES10

recently i have become concerned with the incompetence of the witsu team , any comments??

Chochese

Care to give any examples of this alleged incompetence?

WAFFLES10

lets see agms and the lack thereof

Chochese

...continue.