[Feedback] Rant and Raving forum to go private.

Boston

Conspicuous in the lack of discussion surround this. What are the reasons for the forum going "private" what protection exactly will be provided by making it so? Why private the first and only option looked out? Surely a request access system like soccer would have redressed some of the issues.

Below is a referenced post by one of the forum moderators.

keefg wrote: »

Like that cranky old bollix Bob Zimmerman croaked..."The times they are a changing"....


And so it is for your beloved R&R forum. Due to a number of reasons we have to make some changes to the forum.

The first is to protect boards from any legal fallout as a result of the type of forum here without restricting the rules any further.
The second is that there has been a slew of new people or those unfamiliar with the forum who just don't read the rules etc. and counter rant, argue with posters

We discussed different suggestions but in the end the general consensus is that the forum will have to go private.

What does this mean?

None of the R&R threads will show up on the boards "homepage".

Access to the forum will require pre-approval by the mods of the forum.

This does not mean R&R will become an exclusive club to the mods and their mates. We still want to encourage as many fresh rants and ranters as possible so existing ranters will be encouraged to put small links in their sigs to let others know the forum is still alive and kicking.

We will have some basic rules for entry though and ranters will be vetted on their previous user history and post count. Final rules are still being chewed over.

Just post once in this thread if you want access to R&R once it switches to private. I will set up a new discussion thread* for suggestions about new rules.



Until then....Happy Ranting

* Poor Galva will be rolling in his grave to see a discussion thread in R&R

Oh...and I would also like to point out that the existing mods of the forum are open to bribery

star-pants

If you read the thread (sorry and the other thread about what you want from new r&r)- they further explain why it's going private. It's after a lot of discussions between the forum mods and I assume higher ups. Other ideas may have been bandied about and private came out the best idea. Wasn't just thought up of yesterday.
They've had to introduce new rules of not talking about any person or business at all, due to potential libel. Making it private makes this easier, and they won't have to keep that rule.

Like if I wanted to say 'I hate George Clooney, he smells and so forth' that could be subject to libel, defamation of character and so forth.
Same goes for 'I hate McDonalds, it's all fake crap in there' -- again libel issue, false accusations etc.
Lots of things come under that bracket, if you were annoyed at BusEireann, oh no can't talk about that, DublinBus? oh no... Spar? oh no wait.. can't... taxi company? no... how bout Cadburys? no... Gerry Ryan? Def not. (I could go on all day)

Going private removes the bulk of this issue, it's not viewable to the general joe soap, access only, saves the mods and Darragh (&Boards) a lot of unnecessary hassle.

Boston

star-pants wrote: »

If you read the thread - they further explain why it's going private. It's after a lot of discussions between the forum mods and I assume higher ups. Other ideas may have been bandied about and private came out the best idea.

The moderator in question made it clear that thread wasn't for dicussing the issue.

star-pants wrote: »

Wasn't just thought up of yesterday.

Obviously given the thread was started before yesterday. Your suggestion seems to be to have faith in whatever rational was behind the decision. There is no need for faith when people have the capacity to explain the situation.

star-pants wrote: »

They've had to introduce new rules of not talking about any person or business at all, due to potential libel. Making it private makes this easier, and they won't have to keep that rule.

This libel business is a mess, but aside from that, making it private will not negate the liability. False sense of protection.

Handsome Bob

Boston wrote: »

The moderator in question made it clear that thread wasn't for dicussing the issue.

There are two threads Boston, one for requesting access and the other for discussion.

Obviously given the thread was started before yesterday. Your suggestion seems to be to have faith in whatever rational was behind the decision. There is no need for faith when people have the capacity to explain the situation.

This libel business is a mess, but aside from that, making it private will not negate the liability. False sense of protection.

You're right, going private will not completely negate the liability, but it will go a long way to limiting the potential for legal ramifications.

Keano

LZ5by5 wrote: »

There are two threads Boston, one for requesting access and the other for discussion.



You're right, going private will not completely negate the liability, but it will go a long way to limiting the potential for legal ramifications.

Agreed. Those granted access will no doubt be told, there is a line and if you even stick a a toe over it then you kiss your access goodbye.

VolvicMinerial

The only thing I'd be afraid of is by making it private, and in a couple of months will it be dead and people will start their threads in other fora and were back to square 1.

Handsome Bob

VolvicMinerial wrote: »

The only thing I'd be afraid of is by making it private, and in a couple of months will it be dead and people will start their threads in other fora and were back to square 1.

I'm hoping that all those lurkers who I've never seen before and who have requested access will contribute a bit more. :pac:

star-pants

Boston wrote: »

The moderator in question made it clear that thread wasn't for dicussing the issue.

As you'll see from my edit - I'd forgot to mention the other thread asking people to give opinions on what they want in the 'new' r&r
Two quotes from that one

keefg wrote: »

Yeah, we're hoping that we can do away with the pre-mod for threads once the forum is private.

We'll explain all the how's, what's & why's in the new charter once it goes private.

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Just to add to my last post;

We just feel by going private we'll be protecting boards from legal ramifications and at the same time minimising the amount of damage that would have been done to the charter if we had stayed public.

Also, I'm sure you've all noticed that there does be a lot of counter-ranting going on, people trying to give advice or telling them "to cheer up" and just in general attempts to breach the peace of the forum. We're hoping that by going private that we will be reducing this kind of crap considerably.

Boston wrote:

Obviously given the thread was started before yesterday. Your suggestion seems to be to have faith in whatever rational was behind the decision. There is no need for faith when people have the capacity to explain the situation.

It's a figure of speech, like 'I wasn't born yesterday'

Well tbh, I don't see why we shouldn't trust the mods, if they've come to this decision, to try and make the forum a better place, because they were having to clamp down hard and make a lot more restrictions than they'd liked for it the way it is. I'm not saying every time a decision is made to go 'oh ok then', but at the same time, you need to have a little faith in them. They never said they weren't going to explain anything.

Boston wrote:

This libel business is a mess, but aside from that, making it private will not negate the liability. False sense of protection.

Well it's less of a liability when it's said privately than publicly.
Having had a lot of issues with liability in Animal Welfare I can understand the stress it causes, to the mods and to the likes of Darragh who has to deal with it. So I don't see a big issue with it going private tbh.

GLaDOS

VolvicMinerial wrote: »

The only thing I'd be afraid of is by making it private, and in a couple of months will it be dead and people will start their threads in other fora and were back to square 1.

I doubt it, there's been 477 replies to the access thread, which was started about 24 hours ago, I reckon it'll be fine

Boston

LZ5by5 wrote: »

There are two threads Boston, one for requesting access and the other for discussion.

You're right, going private will not completely negate the liability, but it will go a long way to limiting the potential for legal ramifications.

Sorry completely missed the other thread.

VolvicMinerial wrote: »

The only thing I'd be afraid of is by making it private, and in a couple of months will it be dead and people will start their threads in other fora and were back to square 1.

Not really. Thats the best protection. Centralised, indexed libel isn't a good idea.

keefg

Hi Boston,

I hope this will answer some of your questions.

We (the mods and cmods) have been bandying about ideas on how to improve R&R for the last few months so this isn't a kneejerk reaction.

There have been a couple of complaints to the admins about a few OTT posts in R&R so that accelerated the requirement to look at rule changes to the forum.

We looked at many different options on how to manage the "OTT" posts without imposing too many more restrictions on the rules (we already have a ban on politics, religion & football).

We came to the general conclusion that most of the problems we have with the forum are caused by either new boards users or established boardsies not familiar with R&R who stumble upon the rants on the front page and post replies without reading the forum charter.

All of the R&R regulars are very familiar with the rules of the forum and we don't have any trouble with them.

We are well aware that going private is no protection against libel but it will help us make sure the new "members" (I don't like to use that word but...) are aware of the rules before they post and to ensure that everyone knows where the line is drawn and not to cross it.

We are confident that once this is in place and all the ranters know the rules then we can ease up on the modding a bit (do away with the pre-modded threads etc).

There are concerns about a decline in traffic to the forum once it goes private but we are all staggered but the amount of pre-requests for access to the forum so we hope it will still prosper.

Although the forum will be private it won't be a secret, we will ask the R&R regulars to put links to the forum in their sigs and hopefully that will make newbies curious enough to request access.

I think I've covered all the bases but if not then just ask away.

Boston

Good post.

Tar.Aldarion

What is the main reason private is a better alternative to a soccer type system?

It will die out imo, I'm not saying that it will be soon, I just think it is the nature of such private fora to slowly decline to either being dead or a small core group of posters, but we'll see! Just what i think will happen.

Overheal

I hate private forums but I need somewhere to bitch about that.

Oh the woeful irony of a private forum about bitching! /faints/delrious through exhaustion goodnight san francisco

Handsome Bob

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

What is the main reason private is a better alternative to a soccer type system?

It will die out imo, I'm not saying that it will be soon, I just think it is the nature of such private fora to slowly decline to either being dead or a small core group of posters, but we'll see! Just what i think will happen.

Any interest groups will still be able to see R&R if it's like the Soccer forum, the point is that we're trying to protect ourselves from legal ramifications. Thus, it's pointless for us to implement the Soccer system because we'd be no more protecting ourselves from legal ramifications than we are right now by being completely public.

You're concern is a valid one, but we've all been knocked sideways by the amount of access requests, if everyone contributes we should be fine.

Rabies

star-pants wrote: »

Like if I wanted to say 'I hate George Clooney, he smells and so forth' that could be subject to libel, defamation of character and so forth.
Same goes for 'I hate McDonalds, it's all fake crap in there' -- again libel issue, false accusations etc.
Lots of things come under that bracket, if you were annoyed at BusEireann, oh no can't talk about that, DublinBus? oh no... Spar? oh no wait.. can't... taxi company? no... how bout Cadburys? no... Gerry Ryan? Def not. (I could go on all day)

Going private removes the bulk of this issue, it's not viewable to the general joe soap, access only, saves the mods and Darragh (&Boards) a lot of unnecessary hassle.

Better make most of Boards private at that rate.

Does it really need to be private? Soon AH will be locked away.

star-pants

Rabies wrote: »

Better make most of Boards private at that rate.

Does it really need to be private? Soon AH will be locked away.

To be fair you get discussion in AH, you can't in R&R, so if it's bad, every single post is to be bad. So it looks like a big hate thread against X.
In AH it would be good and bad, more dilution of exclusive hate posts.

There's a difference between AH & R&R in my opinion.

Magenta

I am glad that the forum is going private. The amount of retards who do not understand what "don't go against the rant" means.
I do get a laugh out of reporting them, but they are still retards.
I don't get why people are saying "the forum will die out".
Ranting & Raving is far more relevant than the Mustard forum, or Flirt With Tar.
Check how many people in this country smoke, and how active the Smoking forum is... 11 new threads in the past month, and this is a forum that was taken off private?

Tar.Aldarion

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Any interest groups will still be able to see R&R if it's like the Soccer forum, the point is that we're trying to protect ourselves from legal ramifications. Thus, it's pointless for us to implement the Soccer system because we'd be no more protecting ourselves from legal ramifications than we are right now by being completely public.

You're concern is a valid one, but we've all been knocked sideways by the amount of access requests, if everyone contributes we should be fine.

Surely you would be protecting yourselves more by controlling who has access to post like in soccer? Although having a rant against a company in a particular place is dodgy enough yeah.. The only reason i am suggesting it is because I feel you will get more users that way.

I am aware of the access requests amount, it's the 'if' there that I would be concerned about, that won't happen. But it should be fine trafficwise for a good while yet.

Tar.Aldarion

Magenta wrote: »

.
I don't get why people are saying "the forum will die out".

Much more limited poster base, less people signing up will see it over time...posters stopping using it and not being replaced. If it's not in the drop down..or requires PM for access..it will always hinder numbers using it.

Handsome Bob

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Surely you would be protecting yourselves more by controlling who has access to post like in soccer? Although having a rant against a company in a particular place is dodgy enough yeah.. The only reason i am suggesting it is because I feel you will get more users that way.

I am aware of the access requests amount, it's the 'if' there that I would be concerned about, that won't happen. But it should be fine trafficwise for a good while yet.

IMO the problem in regards to legal ramifications isn't with controlling who can and can't post. I mean I haven't known a star's lawyer to post a public rebuttal and warning on thread. Usually they bypass all of that and take it straight to the likes of Dav and Darragh. So, the problem is with these people who are silently observing the forum. Even if they couldn't post it doesn't matter; they can still see the forum and that's all they need in order to take legal action. Thus, making the forum completely private is the only feasible solution in order to lemit the potential for legal action.

Tar.Aldarion

LZ5by5 wrote: »

IMO the problem in regards to legal ramifications isn't with controlling who can and can't post. I mean I haven't known a star's lawyer to post a public rebuttal and warning on thread. Usually they bypass all of that and take it straight to the likes of Dav and Darragh. So, the problem is with these people who are silently observing the forum. Even if they couldn't post it doesn't matter; they can still see the forum and that's all they need in order to take legal action. Thus, making the forum completely private is the only feasible solution in order to lemit the potential for legal action.

Oh yes, I thought I had agreed with you in a roundabout way...so is limiting what people are allowed to post

Handsome Bob

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Much more limited poster base, less people signing up will see it over time...posters stopping using it and not being replaced. If it's not in the drop down..or requires PM for access..it will always hinder numbers using it.

Self promotion in our sigs might help us keep the forum ticking over with new members.

Tar.Aldarion

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Self promotion in our sigs might help us keep the forum ticking over with new members.

Indeed it will, I think it could be active for a long time, just saying..have a think about how you want to try and keep in active over time is all.

Magenta

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Self promotion in our sigs might help us keep the forum ticking over with new members.

I for one will be putting a link in my sig once the forum is private

keefg

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Indeed it will, I think it could be active for a long time, just saying..have a think about how you want to try and keep in active over time is all.

Very valid point TA. At the moment I think we have enough angry punters around to keep R&R fresh (and funny) but you're right, down the road we might have to re-think how the forum is used/displayed if it starts to get stale.

But that's all for another day, at the moment we have to do what needs to be done to keep it alive.

If we impose all the restrictions required to avoid the legal monkeys on an open forum then it will kill the forum much quicker than switching it to private IMO.

Dav

The biggest concern over the R&R forum is the potential for legal recourse against the site after someone mentioning a person or business specificly (and being honest, there has been a lot of this). There's been a good chat about it and we felt this was the best compromise where the forum won't disappear, but won't be happened upon by someone googling themselves or their business and hitting us up with a (possibly valid) legal complaint. It's just the unfortunate reality of how these things work. The mods have worked really hard to make the forum work and we didn't want to just kill it off because there's a decent sized group of people who enjoy it, so this is the decision we've made on it.

If we were to go down a Soccer style route, the forum would still be searchable and would turn up in Google and so part of the problem remains.

I'll be setting the privacy stuff in motion later on today. Since I'm here, I just wanted to give a big thanks to the Mods of R&R for helping to make this an easy process.

Dav

pickarooney

Is it deliberate irony that the opening post publicly slanders a public figure?
Practise what you preach, surely?

Magenta

pickarooney wrote: »

Is it deliberate irony that the opening post publicly slanders a public figure?
Practise what you preach, surely?

Captain Bringdown is that youuuu?

Boston

pickarooney wrote: »

Is it deliberate irony that the opening post publicly slanders a public figure?
Practise what you preach, surely?

My opening post? I really can't reply to this without being condescending, so I'm just not going to.

Dav wrote: »

The biggest concern over the R&R forum is the potential for legal recourse against the site after someone mentioning a person or business specificly (and being honest, there has been a lot of this). There's been a good chat about it and we felt this was the best compromise where the forum won't disappear, but won't be happened upon by someone googling themselves or their business and hitting us up with a (possibly valid) legal complaint. It's just the unfortunate reality of how these things work. The mods have worked really hard to make the forum work and we didn't want to just kill it off because there's a decent sized group of people who enjoy it, so this is the decision we've made on it.

If we were to go down a Soccer style route, the forum would still be searchable and would turn up in Google and so part of the problem remains.

I'll be setting the privacy stuff in motion later on today. Since I'm here, I just wanted to give a big thanks to the Mods of R&R for helping to make this an easy process.

Dav

It's like moving a problem from A to B and throwing a bunch of coats over it as if it will make the issue go away. The important thing now will be not to take your eye off the ball on this one ans assume that a private forum is a safe forum. A general rule should be note to post anything there can people couldn't stand over in public.

Tar.Aldarion

Boston wrote: »

My opening post? I really can't reply to this without being condescending, so I'm just not going to.

keefg's post that you quoted