England v. Ireland (Twickenham) Sat 27th, Pre/During/Afters !Match Thread!

faigs

http://www.irishrugby.ie/10735_19810.php

Sexton, O'Callaghan, Murphy and Best all getting starts.

Harsh on Leo Cullen I think! Also thought Shaggy would get on the 22.

15 - Geordan Murphy (Leicester)
14 - Tommy Bowe (Ospreys)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Tomas O'Leary (Dolphin/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - John Hayes (Bruff/Munster)
4 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
5 - Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
6 - Stephen Ferris (Dungannon/Ulster)
7 - David Wallace (Garryowen/Munster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements (from):

16 - Sean Cronin (Buccaneers/Connacht)
17 - Tony Buckley (Shannon/Munster)
18 - Leo Cullen (Blackrock College/Leinster)
19 - Shane Jennings (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)


EDIT: Sorry mods I see it's being discussed in another thread, delete if necessary!

maddness

I agree, very harsh on Cullen as i thought he really brought something to the team.
As for TOL at no9??????? I get another grey hair every time I wait for him to pass the ball from the back of a ruck.
I also think that we would be much better off with Paddy wallace on the bench.

JJ

Don't forget that The Bull now has his 100th Irish cap.

Chucky the tree

TOL starting and buckley on the bench? Not enough roflcopter's in the world to describe those two decisions.

spank_inferno

It could be argued though that this is a stronger team than lined up against the french.

...... O'leary aside though.

gav86

maddness wrote: »

I also think that we would be much better off with Paddy wallace on the bench.

Ah with Trimble on the bench its ok as he can cover the center too. Couldn't believe in the lions 2nd test i think it was Jones and Bowe playing center!! Need a center on your bench.

keano_afc

Extremely harsh on Leo Cullen.

Podge_irl

gav86 wrote: »

Ah with Trimble on the bench its ok as he can cover the center too. Couldn't believe in the lions 2nd test i think it was Jones and Bowe playing center!! Need a center on your bench.

Bowe is probably the next best OC centre available to Ireland after BOD at the moment. Centre is covered far better on the pitch than back 3 and the last thing we need is having to move D'Arcy out to the wing again.

Harsh on Cullen but I suppose Doc was gona get a shot at some stage.Im more annoyed about the Selection at 9,where O'Leary for me nearly makes Ireland unwatchable.

Sexton is not afraid of speaking his mind so Im sure he will tell O'Leary to speed up if the ball isnt quick enough for him.
Horgans non inclusion almost beggars belief tbh.

Podge_irl

Malakai Rich Poltergeist wrote: »

Harsh on Cullen but I suppose Doc was gona get a shot at some stage.Im more annoyed about the Selection at 9,where O'Leary for me nearly makes Ireland unwatchable.

Sexton is not afraid of speaking his mind so Im sure he will tell O'Leary to speed up if the ball isnt quick enough for him.
Horgans non inclusion almost beggars belief tbh.

Considering DOC will lack match fitness it kind of makes sense to start him with a view to taking him off at half time/50 minutes. Harsh on Cullen but he may yet get back on the team. Interesting to see if the lineout works as well, it's clearly the best aspect of Cullen's game.

Not really sure where Horgan would fit in. Once Murphy was brought into full back Trimble was always going to be ahead of him on the bench.

conno16

JJ wrote: »

Don't forget that The Bull now has his 100th Irish cap.

whats that meant to mean?

NU8

Chucky the tree wrote: »

TOL starting and buckley on the bench? Not enough roflcopter's in the world to describe those two decisions.

Is Tom Court injured or something? That is a terrible decision if he isn't.

Podge_irl

NU8 wrote: »

Is Tom Court injured or something? That is a terrible decision if he isn't.

No mention of it, and no one at the press conference seemed to considering it worthy of asking. He wasn't in the Ulster team at the weekend despite presumably being released so he may indeed by injured.

edit: he was named in the larger Ulster squad but then "rested" for the game. Hopefully its just a small knock and he'll be back in a fortnight. I was impressed with him against France.

Mr.Applepie

Defensively I'd say TOL is the right choice as I'd say England will spend most of their time try to plough through the fringes. Going forward, hopefully Sexton will just scream at him all game long to get the ball out.

However having Tony Buckle anywhere near the matchday 22 is a crazy. Lots of people say he's great in the loose but that's why we have backrows. The primary concern of the frontrow should be scummaging and he has proven time and again that his scrummaging is AIL level at best.

Very harsh on Leo as I think he has been our best forward so far the 6 nations. The scrum and lineout looked to have improved with him in it but maybe the tight 5 have just uped their game since the autumn internationals. I suppose we'll find out on Saturday.

gav86

Podge_irl wrote: »

Bowe is probably the next best OC centre available to Ireland after BOD at the moment. Centre is covered far better on the pitch than back 3 and the last thing we need is having to move D'Arcy out to the wing again.

Would always prefer Darcy/BOD at OC and move a Trimble/Bowe to Inside if one of the centers had to come off, my opinion anyway. Better not to disrupt the team too much moving Darcy to wing etc etc when there is an injury

Reloc8

Very surprised at the decision to omit Cullen presuming he is fit to play - think he was a standout performer in the two games within his position...also would have expected him to play well v England.

O'Leary is luck imo...possibly benefiting from the fact that we had one enforced change in the backline and one by way of selection (Sexton), couple with a new hooker (all in the 'spine' of the team(...reluctance to make too many changes in one go there I think (i.e. if Kearney & Flannery were available I suspect a change at 9 was more likely).

I can't see what Court did that merited being dropped - actually thought he was quite effective within his role.

Looking forward to seeing Cronin get a run, and welcoming Murphy back...come on Ireland etc.

I really thought we missed Horgan or a Horgan like player (well eh we only have one actually that being Horgan) against France not least as a bail out option up the middle off slowish ball.

Spud83

If Darcy or BOD come off I'm presuming we will se Earls move to center, and Trimble put on the left wing.

If Bowe was being considering as cover for center surely Horgan would have been a better shout for the bench.

d'Oracle

conno16 wrote: »

whats that meant to mean?

It means that John Hayes has been selected to play an international Rugby match, representing Ireland for the 100th time.

peterako

And also be the first Irish Player to reach 100 international caps

(I think...)

thomond2006

peterako wrote: »

And also be the first Irish Player to reach 100 international caps

(I think...)

Correct.

BOD should be the 2nd.

conno16

d'Oracle wrote: »

It means that John Hayes has been selected to play an international Rugby match, representing Ireland for the 100th time.

still dont understand what ur trying to say here
has to be selected cause its his 100th cap?
who might you replace him with? ryle nugent?

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not really sure where Horgan would fit in. Once Murphy was brought into full back Trimble was always going to be ahead of him on the bench.

I would have had
15-Bowe
14-Horgan
11-Earls

Also Horgan covers every position Trimble does bar full back and Darcy,earls and Bowe can play there.So Horgan could have made the bench instead of Trimble.

Podge_irl

peterako wrote: »

And also be the first Irish Player to reach 100 international caps

(I think...)

Being really technical, it's 100 Irish caps. He has one Lions cap (and BOD has 6, putting him ahead in that regard).

Fair play to him though. Shame it's not at Croker.

Podge_irl

Malakai Rich Poltergeist wrote: »

I would have had
15-Bowe
14-Horgan
11-Earls

Also Horgan covers every position Trimble does bar full back and Darcy,earls and Bowe can play there.So Horgan could have made the bench instead of Trimble.

As would I, but Horgan was never gonna start once Murphy was selected at fullback. Horgan could have made the bench ahead of Trimble, but considering Trimble was already involved it was always likely he'd move back there. He's younger as well which may be an issue. It's not as if we're losing anything with him there. I imagine Horgan would drop straight in if Bowe was unavailable.

trippyrez

No way Earls should be on that team. He was shoved around the park by the French and the England back three are bigger than the French back 3.

He's going to be targeted by Wilkonson who'll put inky jinky ones down on him and you'll see Cueto and Armitage racing toward him to put him down. He isn't strong enough to counter against those kind of players and I'm willing to bet that England will score off a cross field kick into his corner.

Shocking decision on TOL. He is way too slow and while he is defensively strong so is Redden. I'm not a massive fan of Redden either as I think his pass is also very slow and that step he takes is a killer - but you could see it against the Scarlets on Saturday he was making a effort to get the ball out the line quickly.

Delighted for Sexton. He deserves his place and he really is playing great stuff at the moment. BOD and GD are playing great stuff together and linking well so I have no worries there. Murphy in at FB is great to see as he is a class act and he really can score from anywhere.

Leo Cullen being dropped is outrageous. He was the standout player in the pack against France and he is every bit as physical as DOC. I can see him coming off the bench and making an impact. The front row shows no surprises. You have to give it to Hayes for his 100 caps but I expect him to come off at half time or shortly after it. He is getting very creaky in the scrums and the England backroom team will have spotted that.

As for England - will JW is a slight injury concern and I'd expect to see the Irish back row in his face all day. He won't be as affective in the 9-10 channel as he usually is against Ireland cause he has to face up to a young and hungry Sexton. Expect him to put in some big hits on JW and DC.

England aren't a bad side. They just aren't playing like a team.

I'm hoping for a win but I just think with TOL at 9 the backline aren't going to get quick ball to run with which will allow a very organised England defense to shut us out.

Spiritoftheseventies

good to see Sexton getting the call up. Billy Keane was on last year. Pretty sure Keane said he was his godfather.

narwog81

delighted to see geordan murphy back in the side, lets hope he shows us on sunday what we've been missing out on....

PhatPiggins

I hope Wilkinson starts as you know exactly what type of game plan your going to get with him. As for Sexton putting the big hits on him he'll do well as JW will be taking most of the ball 10 yards behind the gainline.

trippyrez

PhatPiggins wrote: »

I hope Wilkinson starts as you know exactly what type of game plan your going to get with him. As for Sexton putting the big hits on him he'll do well as JW will be taking most of the ball 10 yards behind the gainline.

First game against new oppo and JW likes to run at them see what they're made of.

PhatPiggins

trippyrez wrote: »

First game against new oppo and JW likes to run at them see what they're made of.

Dont agree that the 09/10 version of Wilkinson does that but we'll find out come saturday.

Ciaran-Irl

Having mulled it over a bit, I can see the logic of picking DOC. He is better at countering mauls, which will be useful against England. He is slightly more physical, and will be a counter to Shaw, and Shaw is a threat. He will also know Shaw's game very well, and that also makes sense in including him. It is also possible that Cullen took / is taking a while to recover from the twisted ankle.

I think Horgan should be in the 15 myself. I don't think Earls is ready for this level yet, and I think he could be exposed. I would Have a back three of Horgan, Murphy, Bowe or Horgan, Bowe, Trimble with either Trimble or Horgan on the bench. I regognise Earls as a talent for the future, but the 6 Nations isn't where he should develop, Munster is where he should develop.

I would personally have Boss, Stringer, Reddan then TOL in that order, but Kidney was always going to have TOL because of his defense.

Chucky the tree

I don't really have a problem with Earls or Trimble selection over Horgan, these guys are far younger and they need the game time and experience for the World Cup. I would have liked to have seen SOB either starting or on the bench as well.

thomond2006

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I would have liked to have seen SOB either starting or on the bench as well.

Sean O'Brien broke his leg last weekend on Leinster duty.

trippyrez

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I don't really have a problem with Earls or Trimble selection over Horgan, these guys are far younger and they need the game time and experience for the World Cup. I would have liked to have seen SOB either starting or on the bench as well.

The problem is that Earls isn't strong enough. He was worse than useless against France and he doesn't have the physical strength to compete at this level yet. Trimble is much improved and could well come on to the pitch if Earls is getting creamed again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rg-qJl-2uM

trippyrez

thomond2006 wrote: »

Sean O'Brien broke his leg last weekend on Leinster duty.

Quite badly too I hear.

poncho000

trippyrez wrote: »

No way Earls should be on that team. He was shoved around the park by the French and the England back three are bigger than the French back 3.

He's going to be targeted by Wilkonson who'll put inky jinky ones down on him and you'll see Cueto and Armitage racing toward him to put him down. He isn't strong enough to counter against those kind of players and I'm willing to bet that England will score off a cross field kick into his corner.

Shocking decision on TOL. He is way too slow and while he is defensively strong so is Redden. I'm not a massive fan of Redden either as I think his pass is also very slow and that step he takes is a killer - but you could see it against the Scarlets on Saturday he was making a effort to get the ball out the line quickly.

Delighted for Sexton. He deserves his place and he really is playing great stuff at the moment. BOD and GD are playing great stuff together and linking well so I have no worries there. Murphy in at FB is great to see as he is a class act and he really can score from anywhere.

Leo Cullen being dropped is outrageous. He was the standout player in the pack against France and he is every bit as physical as DOC. I can see him coming off the bench and making an impact. The front row shows no surprises. You have to give it to Hayes for his 100 caps but I expect him to come off at half time or shortly after it. He is getting very creaky in the scrums and the England backroom team will have spotted that.

As for England - will JW is a slight injury concern and I'd expect to see the Irish back row in his face all day. He won't be as affective in the 9-10 channel as he usually is against Ireland cause he has to face up to a young and hungry Sexton. Expect him to put in some big hits on JW and DC.

England aren't a bad side. They just aren't playing like a team.

I'm hoping for a win but I just think with TOL at 9 the backline aren't going to get quick ball to run with which will allow a very organised England defense to shut us out.

i agree with every single point you just made

premierstone

trippyrez wrote: »

The problem is that Earls isn't strong enough. He was worse than useless against France and he doesn't have the physical strength to compete at this level yet. Trimble is much improved and could well come on to the pitch if Earls is getting creamed again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rg-qJl-2uM

Earls was no where near as bad as you are making out against France and was actually playing quite well untill been moved to FB. There were far far worse Irish performances on the day.

Agree that its very harsh on Cullen, couldnt really have done much more in the last two games, TOL drives me cuckoo tbh and he's only saving grace it would seem is Redden isnt much better. As for Buckley on the bench, if Court isnt injured then this is a sick joke that has gone on long enough.

kmart6

trippyrez wrote: »

The problem is that Earls isn't strong enough. He was worse than useless against France and he doesn't have the physical strength to compete at this level yet. Trimble is much improved and could well come on to the pitch if Earls is getting creamed again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rg-qJl-2uM

Wow your showing a video where Earls gets hit twices by the beast that is Basteraud(who would walk over most wingers around the world) and isolated completely on his own at one stage.....bit harsh IMO!

Eoin

I think it's unfortunate for Cullen, but I agree with Ciaran-Irl. I think Cullen and O'Connell are probably too similar to each other, rather than complimenting the other's game. I don't understand Buckley being picked though, unless Court is indeed injured.

I had recorded the France game to watch again, but didn't want to in the end - was the slow ball definitely all TOL, or was there an element of the pack not giving him quick ruck ball either (or both)?

Podge_irl

premierstone wrote: »

Earls was no where near as bad as you are making out against France and was actually playing quite well untill been moved to FB. There were far far worse Irish performances on the day.

Agree that its very harsh on Cullen, couldnt really have done much more in the last two games, TOL drives me cuckoo tbh and he's only saving grace it would seem is Redden isnt much better. As for Buckley on the bench, if Court isnt injured then this is a sick joke that has gone on long enough.

From what I gather Court had some kind of rib injury and was withdrawn from the Ulster game at the weekend. Obviously it hasn't healed up properly, cause there is no way Buckley is there ahead of him (right? ).

Earls will be fine on the wing. I personally would have preferred Trimble, but not that concerned. The lack of a back 3 sub and the resultant shuffle in the backline was crap for everyone against France and unfortunately Wallace has lost his place cause of it.

The one saving grace that Reddan has over TOL, at least currently, is that he makes a decision on what he's going to do on his way to the ruck, then bloody well does it straight away. The downside is his decision making is fairly poor at times, but I honestly think making bad decisions quickly is better than making every decision as slowly as TOL is doing at the moment.

I had recorded the France game to watch again, but didn't want to in the end - was the slow ball definitely all TOL, or was there an element of the pack not giving him quick ruck ball either (or both)?

Both to a point, but TOL was the worse offender by far. I mentioned it in another thread, but at one point in the first 20 minutes when Ireland break up to within 10m or so of the French line TOL walks up to the ruck (seriously, you'd swear he was on a Sunday stroll), then looks around for 2 seconds, then passes the ball to a pod of three forwards standing perfectly still 5 feet away. It was a criminal waste of an opportunity.

conno16

could we try cullen and o'callaghan against the scots or the welsh?
would be very interested to see how that approach worked

Pride Fighter

Surprised to see Cullen dropped for an inferior player only overcoming injury. With Sexton coming in for ROG it would not surprise me if there was a quota of Leinster/Munster players for the side.

phog

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Surprised to see Cullen dropped for an inferior player only overcoming injury. With Sexton coming in for ROG it would not surprise me if there was a quota of Leinster/Munster players for the side.

Oh please, dont start down that route.

Re. DOC being inferior, I'm not sure what makes you think that, Donncha is as good as if not better than Cullen.

sting60

This in my opinion is a shocking 15.As i said ages ago Kidney is more interested in building for the now rather than the future,his c v is more important than anything else.Who cares about an outdated triple crown anymore.TOL should not be near the first 15,DOC,THE BULL,or Murphy,Buckley on the bench is a joke.This match is going to be the most shocking spectacle of rugby ever witnessed.England are very ordinary and yet will win with ease.The knifes are now well and truly sharpened for Kidney and rightly so .

Podge_irl

sting60 wrote: »

This in my opinion is a shocking 15.As i said ages ago Kidney is more interested in building for the now rather than the future,his c v is more important than anything else.Who cares about an outdated triple crown anymore.TOL should not be near the first 15,DOC,THE BULL,or Murphy,Buckley on the bench is a joke.This match is going to be the most shocking spectacle of rugby ever witnessed.England are very ordinary and yet will win with ease.The knifes are now well and truly sharpened for Kidney and rightly so .

Yeah, and who the hell cares about trying to win another championship. Sure Ireland have loads of them. Right?

Risteard

Amazing how one defeat spells doomsday.

Anyway, pretty happy with that team on the whole. Probably would have started Reddan though apart from that, no complaints on the starting 15. Buckley is a bit weird, though I will presume Court is injured.

I hope Cronin will get some decent game time as well, I think he's a great player and him and Healy in the front row has a lot of dynamism. Obviously TH is still an issue though Hayes will earn his 100th cap and deservedly so. Also hope Jennings will be sprung from the bench and we see if he can replicate his Leinster form for Ireland.

Spud83

sting60 wrote: »

This in my opinion is a shocking 15.As i said ages ago Kidney is more interested in building for the now rather than the future,his c v is more important than anything else.Who cares about an outdated triple crown anymore.TOL should not be near the first 15,DOC,THE BULL,or Murphy,Buckley on the bench is a joke.This match is going to be the most shocking spectacle of rugby ever witnessed.England are very ordinary and yet will win with ease.The knifes are now well and truly sharpened for Kidney and rightly so .

This is just crazy. What knives are being sharpened apart from your own. Kidney will be bringing us to the world cup regardless of what happens on this championship and indeed next years. So you might want to put the knives away they will be blunt fairly quickly.

Far as I can see there only three decisions that can be questioned in this line up.

TOL, which I agree is wrong but Kidney sees something in him. I willing him to trust him on this for another while.

DOC, 50 50 IMO. He would of started the championship if not injured. He was always gonna come in at some stage. Kidney has choosen now. This doesn't mean Cullen won't start again.

Hayes, lack of options here mean it makes sense for him to start. The two home games coming up provide a better chance to develop other options.

Murphy is not question IMO he is excatly what we need at fullback for this game.

As for England winning. It is off course possibly, but they will not do it with ease.

sting60

Podge_irl wrote: »

Yeah, and who the hell cares about trying to win another championship. Sure Ireland have loads of them. Right?

what championship are you talking about??look at what the far superior french organisation are trying to achieve.they were building quietly over last few years as we gloated in winning grand slam in which they had little interest in.they now have a hugh youth policy integrated into their squad and what is Kidney doing playing old punch drunk has beens.There is a massive difference between losing with youth than with old war horses.

Risteard

sting60 wrote: »

what championship are you talking about??look at what the far superior french organisation are trying to achieve.they were building quietly over last few years as we gloated in winning grand slam in which they had little interest in.they now have a hugh youth policy integrated into their squad and what is Kidney doing playing old punch drunk has beens.There is a massive difference between losing with youth than with old war horses.

As a matter of interest what team would you have picked?

France can do that as they have far more playing numbers than us and those players generally get regular game time at a high level due to the number of teams. We don't have that luxury in Ireland.

bleg

sting60 wrote: »

what championship are you talking about??look at what the far superior french organisation are trying to achieve.they were building quietly over last few years as we gloated in winning grand slam in which they had little interest in.they now have a hugh youth policy integrated into their squad and what is Kidney doing playing old punch drunk has beens.There is a massive difference between losing with youth than with old war horses.

Meh, I'd prefer him to select "old punch drunk has beens" and win a grand slam but not a world cup than play inexperienced young side and win neither.

chupacabra

sting60 wrote: »

what championship are you talking about??look at what the far superior french organisation are trying to achieve.they were building quietly over last few years as we gloated in winning grand slam in which they had little interest in.they now have a hugh youth policy integrated into their squad and what is Kidney doing playing old punch drunk has beens.There is a massive difference between losing with youth than with old war horses.

Ireland don't have the resources that the french do. Nowhere near it! They have nearly 30 professional outfits and a much bigger player pool than we do, of COURSE they can benefit from a policy such as that. Why are you even comparing both our countries in that regard? We will not win the world cup in 2011, that is fact. But neither will France. They are the most inconsistent side in world rugby and it wouldn't shock me if Wales put them to the sword on Friday.