Pre Marriage Course

whatnext

Can someone please definitively answer this question on pre marriage courses for me?

To get married in a Catholic Church is it compulsory?

or

Is it at the discretion of the Priest?

and

if it is not compulsory and the priest is digging his heels in do I have any course of action? ie appeal to the bishop,

or

can he refuse me access to the church with another priest?

also

If it is compulsory are those of you out there who were not subjected to this waste of time and money not married after all in the eyes of the Church?

These are very specific questions I am seeking answers to and would appreciate Yes / No answers from people who actually know the answers, not yet another sermon.........

Thank you in advance.

snuggles09

Yes to get married you MUST attend a pre marriage course

No he can't refuse you access to the Church with another priest as far as I'm aware but some churches can make up thier own rules so you might want to check that out.

A civil ceremony , you are not marrying in front of God so you arent married in eyes of Church.

hth

tatli_lokma

snuggles09 wrote: »

A civil ceremony , you are not marrying in front of God so you arent married in eyes of Church.

and thank god for that!
However, as far as I am concerned I am still married in the eyes of God and that is what is important to me, not what some priest thinks.

AFAIK it is compulsory - and you will be hard pushed to find a priest who will allow you to forgo this waste of time. (They probably get a cut out of every course booked or something! actually, I'm only saying that half in jest - I don't know if they do get a cut actually, but it wouldn't surprise me however!)

Jumpy

Pre-marriage course is a money maker for the church. It has some good points, but to be honest if you actually learn anything from it, then you arent really ready to be married in the first place.
There is very little religion in it, just enough to remind you that its the church that is running it.

BC

snuggles09 wrote: »

Yes to get married you MUST attend a pre marriage course

Not necessarily true.
It can be at the discretion of the priest. I have a number of friends who did not have to do the course however it is HIGHLY unusual for a priest to allow this. In all the cases i've seen, the priest was a friend or relation of the couple and/or their family and thats why they waived it.

OP in answer to your questions:
It is usually compulsory unless you know the priest. The priest in question is not necessarily the priest who is marrying you, it is the priest who you do the pre-nuptual enquiry with. As part of the pre-nuptual enquiry the priest has to ask you what marraige preparation you have undertaken and sign a form saying he is happy that you are prepared for marriage. The course is supposedly so that the priest can sign that with the confidence that you are prepared.

No - you don't have any course of appeal. Its up to the priest.

Yes the priest can refuse you access to the church. But its more than that, the priest has to sign off on the pre nuptual enquiry. Without this form you cannot get married in any catholic church.

chillin_penguin

OK I happen to know for a 100% fact YOU DO HAVE TO attend a pre marriage course. It is normally one hour and i have never heard of anyone having to pay for it. However you do have to pay the priest for his time to marry you and use the church so in a scene you are paying for it.

I AM NOT A PRIEST but I do work for the catholic church..they offered me a job and it was that or the dole.

You are coming to the church to say i want to get married in the eyes of god and since you are catholic and wish to proceed with a catholic marriage then you do as they say and to be honest i have had many people over the years treating to phone joe duffy and the bishop and everyone else under the sun its a waste of time.

You want to get married in a church you do as the church says... if you dont like it go get married somewhere else i can honestly say its actually a lot of hassle for a priest and they dont like it as 99% of time the place is left in a mess outside with confetti etc

Hope this helps. I do not agree with it but you wanted a honest answer so there is its

tatli_lokma

chillin_penguin wrote: »

. It is normally one hour and i have never heard of anyone having to pay for it.

do you actually live in the real world? most priests recommend 2 pre-marriage course providers - Avalon and some other one (don't know actual names as thankfully I never had to do it). They CHARGE for the course, AFAIK its about €150.

chillin_penguin wrote: »

.You want to get married in a church you do as the church says... if you dont like it go get married somewhere else i can honestly say its actually a lot of hassle for a priest and they dont like it as 99% of time the place is left in a mess outside with confetti etc

Hope this helps. I do not agree with it but you wanted a honest answer so there is its

whilst I agree to some extent that if you want a religious ceremony you should adhere to some rules, I think the objection most people have is that the church will marry you if you have been living "in sin" with 10 kids, but yet they want to see that you are 'prepared' for marriage!! its a bit rich!
and as for the mess - well ah god love them! with the state the catholic church is in a bit of confetti for people who want to participate in their faith is the least of their worries!

BC

Cincikchick wrote: »

do you actually live in the real world? most priests recommend 2 pre-marriage course providers - Avalon and some other one (don't know actual names as thankfully I never had to do it). They CHARGE for the course, AFAIK its about €150.

Accord is the other one and its 200 euro. Its a friday night and all day saturday.

I've never heard of one that you DON'T have to pay for!!

tatli_lokma

BC wrote: »

Its a friday night and all day saturday.

so a considerable bit more than an hour then! :rolleyes:

BC wrote: »

I've never heard of one that you DON'T have to pay for!!

no, me neither. Only ever heard of the ones you have to pay for and as you have pointed out, it is quite expensive.

Toots

Chillin penguin, I think you're mixing up a pre marriage course with a pre nuptial enquiry. The pre nup enquiry is where you sit down with the priest for about an hour and they essentially size you up; you don't pay for this. The pre marriage course is a workshop type thing that usually lasts over a weekend and is supposed :rolleyes: to help prepare couples for marraige; it costs upwards of 150 lids depending on which course you choose.

Bookkeeper09

I have a friend getting married this year who isnt doing a pre marriage course. The Priest is a family friend and is happy for her not to do it. Also a work colleague of mine got married 2 years ago and the priest waived the pre marriage course on the basis that her and hubby had been together for nearly 20 years, So I think its at the discretion of the priest.

whatnext

Thank you all for your replys (except for Chillin Penguin whom I believe is totaly incorrect)

Here is my situation, I too know many people who have married in a Catholic Church without attending a pre marriage course. However the Priest is insisting that this is not true, and that it is Compulsory.

I also believe it is at the priests discression as a previous poster stated. If the priest admits this, and that "he" will not marry us by his own choice because of the course then thats cool, I can move on to another Church, and my parents can deal with the fall out, as the priest will have lied to them too. They (my parents) want this Priest / Church and we were happy to accomodate.

So again I ask can any one confirm Is the Course Compulsory? The answer I suspect is that they can't as I have not seen it written anywhere, and that it is just a money making racket for another Catholic CULT.

Can anyone direct me to a document that says it at the Priests discression? Thats all I really want.

Thanks again

snuggles09

What do I do when I’m getting married?

Contact the Parish Office to book the Church as early as possible.

Make an appointment with the priest of your area to establish if he is available.

At least three months before the wedding day you must make an appointment with the priest of your district so that the necessary pre-marriage papers can be completed and later, that arrangements can be made for the important wedding rehearsal.

Attendance at a Pre-Marriage Courses is seriously expected.

source:www.ballymenaghparish.org

whatnext

snuggles09 wrote: »

Attendance at a Pre-Marriage Courses is seriously expected.

source:www.ballymenaghparish.org

Thanks Snuggles09.

What is your interpretation of the above statement??
Its "seriously expected" is that seriously desired or compulsory?

RentDayBlues

I would think that if you want to get married in the church and the priest says do a pre-marraige course then do it! Otherwise, find a priest who will marry you without one or what might be your best option, have a civil ceremony.

You dont seem too impressed with the catholic church so why are you getting married there? Its their house, their rules I'm afraid

snuggles09

as it says "expected" i would think that they frown upon you for not having it but they can't beat you into doing it

I'm having a civil ceremony for the very reason that I can't see how a priest who is celebate and has never had a relationship qualifies to tell me how i'm to live my life and raise my children and then to charge me 150 euro for the "pleasure"..i couldnt be listening to him..i was raised catholic but i don't agree with a lot that has transpired recently within the church and i just dont' want any part of it

we are marrying as we have 3 children and want them to have a secure family unit and for other personal reasons..nothing to do with religion at all..it's the union we want..couldnt give a rats ass about the church if i'm completley honest

would you not consider going down the civil route? my mother is a MAJORLY religious woman and i was cacking myself telling her we were having a civil ceremony and her answer was just "each to their own, whatever makes you happy" which was a shock..i was prepared to do battle

seamus

The basic fact here is that you cannot force a priest to perform a marriage.

No, a pre-marriage course it not compulsory, but the RC Church makes it an expectation of any couple to attend one, and many priests insist that they will not perform the ceremony without the couple having attended it. This is a lame attempt to strengthen the church's influence in the marriage, as the course have a strongly religious message. It's also a misguided belief that the church can avoid increasing divorce rates by having the couple attend a weekend session.

The Parish priest, if he so wishes, can refuse to allow you to use the parish church if you do not adhere to his rules, which may include mandatory attendence of a pre-marriage course.

You cannot force a priest to perform a ceremony if you do not abide by his wishes.
Use of the church is entirely at the discretion of the parish priest, you cannot force the priest to allow you to use the church.

There are some priests who dictate to the couple about the order of the ceremony and the music that will be played.

Some venues will only allow hymns and may dictate on the flower arrangements (and insist that you leave them in the church after the ceremony!).

They can do this because they are a private organisation offering a private service and if you do not wish to follow their rules, you can go elsewhere for your wedding.

Ultimately almost everything is at the discretion of the priest, including the paperwork, and many people have family friends who are priests who are willing to forgoe pre-marriage courses and other pieces of paperwork because they know the couple well enough.

Your trick is finding the right priest.

tatli_lokma

the fact that one priest can be hell bent (pardon the pun!) on a pre-marriage course, and another can allow the couple to forgo it just goes to show how totally arbitrary the RC Church is.
One rule for one......
Whilst I am not particularly religious, I would say that I belive in god and spirituality, and also religion plays a big part in my father's life, so initially we considered having a 'blessing' - only to be told that officially according to the Catholic church there is no such thing! They will not 'bless' a union which is not accepting the sacriment of marriage! But here's the kicker - my hubby is muslim and they had NO PROBLEM with bestowing the sacriment of marriage on him, even though he had not experienced any of the other sacriments! I also pointed out that whilst he would be happy to say the right things at the right time if it made me happy, he actually wouldn't understand or know what he was agreeing to, or what the 'sacriment' meant - the answer I got was that it doesn't matter! so basically it doesn't matter what he believes, it doesn't matter that he is Muslim, doesn't matter that he doesn't understand what he is agreeing to in the eyes of the church, all that matters is that he gets the sacriment and has a catholic marriage! what a load of BS!

I think the pre-marriage course is along the same lines - we don't care that you are not living in line with Catholic doctrine and have lived together for 20 odd years, have 10 kids and never go to mass. We don't mind that, we'll still marry you in the church, but we want you to pay for a course that will tell you how to be married and a good catholic! pardon my french but its a load of balls! I would actually have more respect for them if they said no you can't get married here because you don't attend church regularly - that I could understand, but to enforce a course on people is just silly.

Their time would be better spent encouraging younger generations into the church and weeding out the perverts and apologising for their mistakes - maybe then people would be more willing to attend church and their 'course' wouldn't seem so hypocritical. they should get their own house in order before they tell people what to do in their own homes!

:mad:

thats my 2 cents anyway. (rant over!)

tatli_lokma

snuggles09 wrote: »

would you not consider going down the civil route? my mother is a MAJORLY religious woman and i was cacking myself telling her we were having a civil ceremony and her answer was just "each to their own, whatever makes you happy" which was a shock..i was prepared to do battle

same here - my dad's nickname is 'The pope' lol. But he was ok with the idea of a civil ceremony (he would have liked a blessing, but when I explained that the wouldn't do it, had to be sacriment or nothing, even he found that ludicrous!).
When the day came and we had the ceremony, he said it was beautiful and very moving and that God was there shining on us regardless, which is all that matters. So even holy-joes can be won around if you put the effort into a civil ceremony (and as another poster pointed out, some priests are very controlling with weddings and you don't get the wedding you want anyway!)

whatnext

Thanks again everyone,

I think the majority of us agree that it is at the priest discression, which I am comfortable with.

Now all I need to do is get the Priest to admit that so I can get my parents off the case, (not that its any of their business, but we were trying to accomodate their wishes)

My major issue at this point is the way it was presented to us was that it was "The Law", ie a legal requirement and when I challenged him on this in reality it was bound to end in tears.

He probably just expected me to accept this word as law, and bend over and take it, so to speak.

It will be an interesting Sunday, I know the Priest will win the arguement, but he misses out on his payday. One other thing is for sure Accord or the other croud will not be getting my money either, nor a day and a half of our lives:D

Next Parish I expect. Or maybe the other church in the town:eek: that would be interesting

tatli_lokma

whatnext wrote: »

Next Parish I expect. Or maybe the other church in the town:eek: that would be interesting

have a pagan hand-fasting and really freak them all out!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055835740

whatnext

Cincikchick wrote: »

have a pagan hand-fasting and really freak them all out!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055835740

Link sent to the folks, too funny to pass this up, I'll run with it for a week or so I think:D:D:D:D

BC

whatnext wrote: »

Thanks again everyone,

I think the majority of us agree that it is at the priest discression, which I am comfortable with.

Now all I need to do is get the Priest to admit that so I can get my parents off the case, (not that its any of their business, but we were trying to accomodate their wishes)

My major issue at this point is the way it was presented to us was that it was "The Law", ie a legal requirement and when I challenged him on this in reality it was bound to end in tears.

He probably just expected me to accept this word as law, and bend over and take it, so to speak.

It will be an interesting Sunday, I know the Priest will win the arguement, but he misses out on his payday. One other thing is for sure Accord or the other croud will not be getting my money either, nor a day and a half of our lives:D

Next Parish I expect. Or maybe the other church in the town:eek: that would be interesting

It is not that straightforward.
The priest who decides about the marriage course is the priest who does the pre-nuptual enquiry NOT the priest who is marrying you. The priest who does the pre-nup is the priest in the parish where you currently live, irrespective of where you get married. If that priest does not sign off you on the pre-nup (which includes the pre marriage prep) then you cannot get married in ANY church. Regardless of there views on the course, no priest will over-rule the decision of a priest elsewhere.

Eoin

There was another thread on this recently about the pre-marriage courses, and many of the people who had actually been on them (myself included) said that they were actually far more useful than they expected. In general, the people who wrote them off as a complete waste of time hadn't attended one themselves.

The one I went on was very light on the religious side of things. The only issue I had was the family planning module, but apart from that, we got something out of it (to our surprise). Even if you've been living together for a few years, there's a good chance it might raise some questions that you mightn't have discussed between yourselves.

BC wrote:

The priest who decides about the marriage course is the priest who does the pre-nuptual enquiry NOT the priest who is marrying you.

That's the reverse of how I remember it. The PP who did the pre-nup enquiry didn't ask for any details of a pre-marriage course, it was the priest who was marrying us who did.

BC

eoin wrote: »

That's the reverse of how I remember it. The PP who did the pre-nup enquiry didn't ask for any details of a pre-marriage course, it was the priest who was marrying us who did.

This is the pre-nup enquiry form. See the section about marriage preparation. This is the bit that the course is required for:

http://www.gettingmarried.ie/documents/prenuptial_enquiry.pdf

I also agree that the courses are light on the religious side.
We did the accord one. It was run by lay people. A priest attended for an hour on one day to discuss the legal and paperwork requirements. Other than that it was similar, the family planning section was really the only one that had a religious slant.

Eoin

I wonder did the priest marrying us do that section with me, after my local PP had filled out the first section.

aldeniro

eoin wrote: »

There was another thread on this recently about the pre-marriage courses, and many of the people who had actually been on them (myself included) said that they were actually far more useful than they expected. In general, the people who wrote them off as a complete waste of time hadn't attended one themselves.

The one I went on was very light on the religious side of things. The only issue I had was the family planning module, but apart from that, we got something out of it (to our surprise). Even if you've been living together for a few years, there's a good chance it might raise some questions that you mightn't have discussed between yourselves.



That's the reverse of how I remember it. The PP who did the pre-nup enquiry didn't ask for any details of a pre-marriage course, it was the priest who was marrying us who did.

Useful, great if someone found them useful. I recently attended the avalon course, and was without doubt, the biggest load of arse crap ive ever attended. Prehaps the accord one is better, but i cannot recommend the avalon one is you are genuinely looking to get something out of it. The only positives are its shorter and cheaper than the accord one, so with that aspect it suited us. Oh course packed to capacity also, just under 100 people there!
Circumstances should dictate whether you should do the course or not, i.e living together 5 yrs?/going out for 10 yrs ect, why the hell should we have to do a course?
Suggestions for the accord one, and most priests push this as money goes some bit to the church. A lot are anti other providers as they dont get any cash!
FEckin money racket, and another aspect of the church fleecing folk who are getting married, i.e 150/200 for course, 150 for priest, 150 for reg office, they also charge for marriage cert!, money for church on day, money for dud who opens church, money for altar boys, ect ect ect

Eoin

Ours was in a place near Deansgrange (beside the fire station I think). It was a Friday evening and Saturday day. There were about 15-20 couples. There were a few different couples doing the different modules. I can't even remember if a priest was there at all - if there was, then he didn't do any talks. We had been living together for a few years at that stage, and it still raised points of discussion that hadn't come up. In fact, I'd go so far as saying that the course we did would be useful to any couple getting married, regardless of their religion.

Certainly I think they should be done at cost though. The other church costs of getting married are irrelevant to this thread though IMO.

BC

eoin wrote: »

I wonder did the priest marrying us do that section with me, after my local PP had filled out the first section.

That could be it. The PP has to send the form to the priest marrying you so he might have left that bit for him!

aldeniro

eoin wrote: »

....

Certainly I think they should be done at cost though. The other church costs of getting married are irrelevant to this thread though IMO.

Irrelevant??, i really dont think so. The point i was making was on top of everything else , the course is 150/200 euro.i.e the "church" makes money as well! IF they insist on people doing the course, and its for the good of the marriage ect ect, then should it not be free/greatly or sudsidised reduced from 150/200?

Eoin

aldeniro wrote: »

Irrelevant??, i really dont think so. The point i was making was on top of everything else , the course is 150/200 euro.i.e the "church" makes money as well! IF they insist on people doing the course, and its for the good of the marriage ect ect, then should it not be free/greatly or sudsidised reduced from 150/200?

I said the other costs that you mentioned aren't relevant to a thread about a pre-marriage course.

150 for priest, 150 for reg office, they also charge for marriage cert!, money for church on day, money for dud who opens church, money for altar boys, ect ect ect

I also said that the course itself should be at cost.