Pre Marriage Course

whatnext

Can someone please definitively answer this question on pre marriage courses for me?

To get married in a Catholic Church is it compulsory?

or

Is it at the discretion of the Priest?

and

if it is not compulsory and the priest is digging his heels in do I have any course of action? ie appeal to the bishop,

or

can he refuse me access to the church with another priest?

also

If it is compulsory are those of you out there who were not subjected to this waste of time and money not married after all in the eyes of the Church?

These are very specific questions I am seeking answers to and would appreciate Yes / No answers from people who actually know the answers, not yet another sermon.........

Thank you in advance.

snuggles09

Yes to get married you MUST attend a pre marriage course

No he can't refuse you access to the Church with another priest as far as I'm aware but some churches can make up thier own rules so you might want to check that out.

A civil ceremony , you are not marrying in front of God so you arent married in eyes of Church.

hth

tatli_lokma

snuggles09 wrote: »

A civil ceremony , you are not marrying in front of God so you arent married in eyes of Church.

and thank god for that!
However, as far as I am concerned I am still married in the eyes of God and that is what is important to me, not what some priest thinks.

AFAIK it is compulsory - and you will be hard pushed to find a priest who will allow you to forgo this waste of time. (They probably get a cut out of every course booked or something! actually, I'm only saying that half in jest - I don't know if they do get a cut actually, but it wouldn't surprise me however!)

Jumpy

Pre-marriage course is a money maker for the church. It has some good points, but to be honest if you actually learn anything from it, then you arent really ready to be married in the first place.
There is very little religion in it, just enough to remind you that its the church that is running it.

BC

snuggles09 wrote: »

Yes to get married you MUST attend a pre marriage course

Not necessarily true.
It can be at the discretion of the priest. I have a number of friends who did not have to do the course however it is HIGHLY unusual for a priest to allow this. In all the cases i've seen, the priest was a friend or relation of the couple and/or their family and thats why they waived it.

OP in answer to your questions:
It is usually compulsory unless you know the priest. The priest in question is not necessarily the priest who is marrying you, it is the priest who you do the pre-nuptual enquiry with. As part of the pre-nuptual enquiry the priest has to ask you what marraige preparation you have undertaken and sign a form saying he is happy that you are prepared for marriage. The course is supposedly so that the priest can sign that with the confidence that you are prepared.

No - you don't have any course of appeal. Its up to the priest.

Yes the priest can refuse you access to the church. But its more than that, the priest has to sign off on the pre nuptual enquiry. Without this form you cannot get married in any catholic church.

chillin_penguin

OK I happen to know for a 100% fact YOU DO HAVE TO attend a pre marriage course. It is normally one hour and i have never heard of anyone having to pay for it. However you do have to pay the priest for his time to marry you and use the church so in a scene you are paying for it.

I AM NOT A PRIEST but I do work for the catholic church..they offered me a job and it was that or the dole.

You are coming to the church to say i want to get married in the eyes of god and since you are catholic and wish to proceed with a catholic marriage then you do as they say and to be honest i have had many people over the years treating to phone joe duffy and the bishop and everyone else under the sun its a waste of time.

You want to get married in a church you do as the church says... if you dont like it go get married somewhere else i can honestly say its actually a lot of hassle for a priest and they dont like it as 99% of time the place is left in a mess outside with confetti etc

Hope this helps. I do not agree with it but you wanted a honest answer so there is its

tatli_lokma

chillin_penguin wrote: »

. It is normally one hour and i have never heard of anyone having to pay for it.

do you actually live in the real world? most priests recommend 2 pre-marriage course providers - Avalon and some other one (don't know actual names as thankfully I never had to do it). They CHARGE for the course, AFAIK its about €150.

chillin_penguin wrote: »

.You want to get married in a church you do as the church says... if you dont like it go get married somewhere else i can honestly say its actually a lot of hassle for a priest and they dont like it as 99% of time the place is left in a mess outside with confetti etc

Hope this helps. I do not agree with it but you wanted a honest answer so there is its

whilst I agree to some extent that if you want a religious ceremony you should adhere to some rules, I think the objection most people have is that the church will marry you if you have been living "in sin" with 10 kids, but yet they want to see that you are 'prepared' for marriage!! its a bit rich!
and as for the mess - well ah god love them! with the state the catholic church is in a bit of confetti for people who want to participate in their faith is the least of their worries!

BC

Cincikchick wrote: »

do you actually live in the real world? most priests recommend 2 pre-marriage course providers - Avalon and some other one (don't know actual names as thankfully I never had to do it). They CHARGE for the course, AFAIK its about €150.

Accord is the other one and its 200 euro. Its a friday night and all day saturday.

I've never heard of one that you DON'T have to pay for!!

tatli_lokma

BC wrote: »

Its a friday night and all day saturday.

so a considerable bit more than an hour then! :rolleyes:

BC wrote: »

I've never heard of one that you DON'T have to pay for!!

no, me neither. Only ever heard of the ones you have to pay for and as you have pointed out, it is quite expensive.

Toots

Chillin penguin, I think you're mixing up a pre marriage course with a pre nuptial enquiry. The pre nup enquiry is where you sit down with the priest for about an hour and they essentially size you up; you don't pay for this. The pre marriage course is a workshop type thing that usually lasts over a weekend and is supposed :rolleyes: to help prepare couples for marraige; it costs upwards of 150 lids depending on which course you choose.

Bookkeeper09

I have a friend getting married this year who isnt doing a pre marriage course. The Priest is a family friend and is happy for her not to do it. Also a work colleague of mine got married 2 years ago and the priest waived the pre marriage course on the basis that her and hubby had been together for nearly 20 years, So I think its at the discretion of the priest.

whatnext

Thank you all for your replys (except for Chillin Penguin whom I believe is totaly incorrect)

Here is my situation, I too know many people who have married in a Catholic Church without attending a pre marriage course. However the Priest is insisting that this is not true, and that it is Compulsory.

I also believe it is at the priests discression as a previous poster stated. If the priest admits this, and that "he" will not marry us by his own choice because of the course then thats cool, I can move on to another Church, and my parents can deal with the fall out, as the priest will have lied to them too. They (my parents) want this Priest / Church and we were happy to accomodate.

So again I ask can any one confirm Is the Course Compulsory? The answer I suspect is that they can't as I have not seen it written anywhere, and that it is just a money making racket for another Catholic CULT.

Can anyone direct me to a document that says it at the Priests discression? Thats all I really want.

Thanks again

snuggles09

What do I do when I’m getting married?

Contact the Parish Office to book the Church as early as possible.

Make an appointment with the priest of your area to establish if he is available.

At least three months before the wedding day you must make an appointment with the priest of your district so that the necessary pre-marriage papers can be completed and later, that arrangements can be made for the important wedding rehearsal.

Attendance at a Pre-Marriage Courses is seriously expected.

source:www.ballymenaghparish.org

whatnext

snuggles09 wrote: »

Attendance at a Pre-Marriage Courses is seriously expected.

source:www.ballymenaghparish.org

Thanks Snuggles09.

What is your interpretation of the above statement??
Its "seriously expected" is that seriously desired or compulsory?

RentDayBlues

I would think that if you want to get married in the church and the priest says do a pre-marraige course then do it! Otherwise, find a priest who will marry you without one or what might be your best option, have a civil ceremony.

You dont seem too impressed with the catholic church so why are you getting married there? Its their house, their rules I'm afraid

snuggles09

as it says "expected" i would think that they frown upon you for not having it but they can't beat you into doing it

I'm having a civil ceremony for the very reason that I can't see how a priest who is celebate and has never had a relationship qualifies to tell me how i'm to live my life and raise my children and then to charge me 150 euro for the "pleasure"..i couldnt be listening to him..i was raised catholic but i don't agree with a lot that has transpired recently within the church and i just dont' want any part of it

we are marrying as we have 3 children and want them to have a secure family unit and for other personal reasons..nothing to do with religion at all..it's the union we want..couldnt give a rats ass about the church if i'm completley honest

would you not consider going down the civil route? my mother is a MAJORLY religious woman and i was cacking myself telling her we were having a civil ceremony and her answer was just "each to their own, whatever makes you happy" which was a shock..i was prepared to do battle

seamus

The basic fact here is that you cannot force a priest to perform a marriage.

No, a pre-marriage course it not compulsory, but the RC Church makes it an expectation of any couple to attend one, and many priests insist that they will not perform the ceremony without the couple having attended it. This is a lame attempt to strengthen the church's influence in the marriage, as the course have a strongly religious message. It's also a misguided belief that the church can avoid increasing divorce rates by having the couple attend a weekend session.

The Parish priest, if he so wishes, can refuse to allow you to use the parish church if you do not adhere to his rules, which may include mandatory attendence of a pre-marriage course.

You cannot force a priest to perform a ceremony if you do not abide by his wishes.
Use of the church is entirely at the discretion of the parish priest, you cannot force the priest to allow you to use the church.

There are some priests who dictate to the couple about the order of the ceremony and the music that will be played.

Some venues will only allow hymns and may dictate on the flower arrangements (and insist that you leave them in the church after the ceremony!).

They can do this because they are a private organisation offering a private service and if you do not wish to follow their rules, you can go elsewhere for your wedding.

Ultimately almost everything is at the discretion of the priest, including the paperwork, and many people have family friends who are priests who are willing to forgoe pre-marriage courses and other pieces of paperwork because they know the couple well enough.

Your trick is finding the right priest.

tatli_lokma

the fact that one priest can be hell bent (pardon the pun!) on a pre-marriage course, and another can allow the couple to forgo it just goes to show how totally arbitrary the RC Church is.
One rule for one......
Whilst I am not particularly religious, I would say that I belive in god and spirituality, and also religion plays a big part in my father's life, so initially we considered having a 'blessing' - only to be told that officially according to the Catholic church there is no such thing! They will not 'bless' a union which is not accepting the sacriment of marriage! But here's the kicker - my hubby is muslim and they had NO PROBLEM with bestowing the sacriment of marriage on him, even though he had not experienced any of the other sacriments! I also pointed out that whilst he would be happy to say the right things at the right time if it made me happy, he actually wouldn't understand or know what he was agreeing to, or what the 'sacriment' meant - the answer I got was that it doesn't matter! so basically it doesn't matter what he believes, it doesn't matter that he is Muslim, doesn't matter that he doesn't understand what he is agreeing to in the eyes of the church, all that matters is that he gets the sacriment and has a catholic marriage! what a load of BS!

I think the pre-marriage course is along the same lines - we don't care that you are not living in line with Catholic doctrine and have lived together for 20 odd years, have 10 kids and never go to mass. We don't mind that, we'll still marry you in the church, but we want you to pay for a course that will tell you how to be married and a good catholic! pardon my french but its a load of balls! I would actually have more respect for them if they said no you can't get married here because you don't attend church regularly - that I could understand, but to enforce a course on people is just silly.

Their time would be better spent encouraging younger generations into the church and weeding out the perverts and apologising for their mistakes - maybe then people would be more willing to attend church and their 'course' wouldn't seem so hypocritical. they should get their own house in order before they tell people what to do in their own homes!

:mad:

thats my 2 cents anyway. (rant over!)

tatli_lokma

snuggles09 wrote: »

would you not consider going down the civil route? my mother is a MAJORLY religious woman and i was cacking myself telling her we were having a civil ceremony and her answer was just "each to their own, whatever makes you happy" which was a shock..i was prepared to do battle

same here - my dad's nickname is 'The pope' lol. But he was ok with the idea of a civil ceremony (he would have liked a blessing, but when I explained that the wouldn't do it, had to be sacriment or nothing, even he found that ludicrous!).
When the day came and we had the ceremony, he said it was beautiful and very moving and that God was there shining on us regardless, which is all that matters. So even holy-joes can be won around if you put the effort into a civil ceremony (and as another poster pointed out, some priests are very controlling with weddings and you don't get the wedding you want anyway!)

whatnext

Thanks again everyone,

I think the majority of us agree that it is at the priest discression, which I am comfortable with.

Now all I need to do is get the Priest to admit that so I can get my parents off the case, (not that its any of their business, but we were trying to accomodate their wishes)

My major issue at this point is the way it was presented to us was that it was "The Law", ie a legal requirement and when I challenged him on this in reality it was bound to end in tears.

He probably just expected me to accept this word as law, and bend over and take it, so to speak.

It will be an interesting Sunday, I know the Priest will win the arguement, but he misses out on his payday. One other thing is for sure Accord or the other croud will not be getting my money either, nor a day and a half of our lives:D

Next Parish I expect. Or maybe the other church in the town:eek: that would be interesting

tatli_lokma

whatnext wrote: »

Next Parish I expect. Or maybe the other church in the town:eek: that would be interesting

have a pagan hand-fasting and really freak them all out!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055835740

whatnext

Cincikchick wrote: »

have a pagan hand-fasting and really freak them all out!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055835740

Link sent to the folks, too funny to pass this up, I'll run with it for a week or so I think:D:D:D:D

BC

whatnext wrote: »

Thanks again everyone,

I think the majority of us agree that it is at the priest discression, which I am comfortable with.

Now all I need to do is get the Priest to admit that so I can get my parents off the case, (not that its any of their business, but we were trying to accomodate their wishes)

My major issue at this point is the way it was presented to us was that it was "The Law", ie a legal requirement and when I challenged him on this in reality it was bound to end in tears.

He probably just expected me to accept this word as law, and bend over and take it, so to speak.

It will be an interesting Sunday, I know the Priest will win the arguement, but he misses out on his payday. One other thing is for sure Accord or the other croud will not be getting my money either, nor a day and a half of our lives:D

Next Parish I expect. Or maybe the other church in the town:eek: that would be interesting

It is not that straightforward.
The priest who decides about the marriage course is the priest who does the pre-nuptual enquiry NOT the priest who is marrying you. The priest who does the pre-nup is the priest in the parish where you currently live, irrespective of where you get married. If that priest does not sign off you on the pre-nup (which includes the pre marriage prep) then you cannot get married in ANY church. Regardless of there views on the course, no priest will over-rule the decision of a priest elsewhere.

Eoin

There was another thread on this recently about the pre-marriage courses, and many of the people who had actually been on them (myself included) said that they were actually far more useful than they expected. In general, the people who wrote them off as a complete waste of time hadn't attended one themselves.

The one I went on was very light on the religious side of things. The only issue I had was the family planning module, but apart from that, we got something out of it (to our surprise). Even if you've been living together for a few years, there's a good chance it might raise some questions that you mightn't have discussed between yourselves.

BC wrote:

The priest who decides about the marriage course is the priest who does the pre-nuptual enquiry NOT the priest who is marrying you.

That's the reverse of how I remember it. The PP who did the pre-nup enquiry didn't ask for any details of a pre-marriage course, it was the priest who was marrying us who did.

BC

eoin wrote: »

That's the reverse of how I remember it. The PP who did the pre-nup enquiry didn't ask for any details of a pre-marriage course, it was the priest who was marrying us who did.

This is the pre-nup enquiry form. See the section about marriage preparation. This is the bit that the course is required for:

http://www.gettingmarried.ie/documents/prenuptial_enquiry.pdf

I also agree that the courses are light on the religious side.
We did the accord one. It was run by lay people. A priest attended for an hour on one day to discuss the legal and paperwork requirements. Other than that it was similar, the family planning section was really the only one that had a religious slant.

Eoin

I wonder did the priest marrying us do that section with me, after my local PP had filled out the first section.

aldeniro

eoin wrote: »

There was another thread on this recently about the pre-marriage courses, and many of the people who had actually been on them (myself included) said that they were actually far more useful than they expected. In general, the people who wrote them off as a complete waste of time hadn't attended one themselves.

The one I went on was very light on the religious side of things. The only issue I had was the family planning module, but apart from that, we got something out of it (to our surprise). Even if you've been living together for a few years, there's a good chance it might raise some questions that you mightn't have discussed between yourselves.



That's the reverse of how I remember it. The PP who did the pre-nup enquiry didn't ask for any details of a pre-marriage course, it was the priest who was marrying us who did.

Useful, great if someone found them useful. I recently attended the avalon course, and was without doubt, the biggest load of arse crap ive ever attended. Prehaps the accord one is better, but i cannot recommend the avalon one is you are genuinely looking to get something out of it. The only positives are its shorter and cheaper than the accord one, so with that aspect it suited us. Oh course packed to capacity also, just under 100 people there!
Circumstances should dictate whether you should do the course or not, i.e living together 5 yrs?/going out for 10 yrs ect, why the hell should we have to do a course?
Suggestions for the accord one, and most priests push this as money goes some bit to the church. A lot are anti other providers as they dont get any cash!
FEckin money racket, and another aspect of the church fleecing folk who are getting married, i.e 150/200 for course, 150 for priest, 150 for reg office, they also charge for marriage cert!, money for church on day, money for dud who opens church, money for altar boys, ect ect ect

Eoin

Ours was in a place near Deansgrange (beside the fire station I think). It was a Friday evening and Saturday day. There were about 15-20 couples. There were a few different couples doing the different modules. I can't even remember if a priest was there at all - if there was, then he didn't do any talks. We had been living together for a few years at that stage, and it still raised points of discussion that hadn't come up. In fact, I'd go so far as saying that the course we did would be useful to any couple getting married, regardless of their religion.

Certainly I think they should be done at cost though. The other church costs of getting married are irrelevant to this thread though IMO.

BC

eoin wrote: »

I wonder did the priest marrying us do that section with me, after my local PP had filled out the first section.

That could be it. The PP has to send the form to the priest marrying you so he might have left that bit for him!

aldeniro

eoin wrote: »

....

Certainly I think they should be done at cost though. The other church costs of getting married are irrelevant to this thread though IMO.

Irrelevant??, i really dont think so. The point i was making was on top of everything else , the course is 150/200 euro.i.e the "church" makes money as well! IF they insist on people doing the course, and its for the good of the marriage ect ect, then should it not be free/greatly or sudsidised reduced from 150/200?

Eoin

aldeniro wrote: »

Irrelevant??, i really dont think so. The point i was making was on top of everything else , the course is 150/200 euro.i.e the "church" makes money as well! IF they insist on people doing the course, and its for the good of the marriage ect ect, then should it not be free/greatly or sudsidised reduced from 150/200?

I said the other costs that you mentioned aren't relevant to a thread about a pre-marriage course.

150 for priest, 150 for reg office, they also charge for marriage cert!, money for church on day, money for dud who opens church, money for altar boys, ect ect ect

I also said that the course itself should be at cost.

aldeniro

Directly relevant , then No. No thread sticks 100% to any topic without some element of it slightly off topic. Pre marriage course in my opinion is a money racket, money making for the church, as well as other things "church" related that has to also be paid. While hopefully some couples get something from it, thats great. But would suggest that maj do not. 5 other couples i knew attended same one i did and were all of same opinion as myself.

Yes you did mention "at cost" for the course, bravo i agree.

billybunty

Hi OP, we are getting married in Sept. I can tell you that I have checked out if we have to do Pre-marital course with our local parish office and a bishop. BOTH have advised me to ask the priest marrying us - so I did, and the priest that is marrying us told me we do NOT have to do this, he will write a letter to the local parish priest to state that he is satisfied that we have the appropriate requirements to get married - hope this helps!

Toots

We asked our PP if there was any way of getting out of the course, seeing as we're together 7 years and living together for 4 of them. He said he wanted us to do the course on account of our ages (we were 23 and 25 when we got engaged). However my OH's older brother got married at 32, after being with his wife for the same amount of time, and the PP was happy not to send them on the course. He also knows the brother very well, and they'd actually socialise a bit together, so he was happy that they were both prepared for marriage.

dmcg21

how much is it for the marriage cert and the course and can they be done any cheaper

BC

dmcg21 wrote: »

how much is it for the marriage cert and the course and can they be done any cheaper

The pre marraige course is a church requirement and ranges from about 120 to 200 depending on the course from what i've seen.

By marriage cert I assume you mean the state registrars appointment. Thats 150 euro and no it can't be done cheaper. To actually get your marriage cert after the wedding has happened then costs about 10 euro.

Dataighom

I found the Accord people giving the course to be condescending and more than a little arrogant.
It is a catholic based course so i expected it to be a little biased towards the churches teaching but i didn't expect it to be deliberately misleading.

The family planning section could be summed up as
"The pill is bad" and we were actually told that the Natural family planning method is 98% effective. I still wonder how many of the other attendees went home and managed to get their girlfriend knocked up because they believed what they were told.

We didn't get any information that i would consider practical such as the legal forms we need in advance of getting married and any of the tax implications.

If you want to spend a weekend getting talked to like you were a 10 year old and listen to someone in their 50s who got married when they were 18 start every sentence with "Well in my day ..." then knock yourself out. Otherwise try and find some other organisation the does the course.

I did the course in Carndonagh in Co. Donegal so maybe it's a little different up here as opposed to the one in the city. But i still rate the weekend worse than one were my dog got run over by a car, Thierry Henri knocked us out of the world cup and i managed to get my lottery tickets mixed up and though i had won the jackpot for 2 hours.

tinkerbell

^^ This is why I'd never do the heap of **** that is the pre-marriage course. Absolute waste of time and to be talked down to from those condescending bunch of idiots.

And this whole thing about natural family planning method being 98% effective, they are off their rocker, feckin nutjobs.

sse

I attended the accord one which went on for two saturdays and the only thing I learned from it is that 1 in 5 marriages breakdown.

I hated it....just remember the course was broken up into various modules where you where taught how to be married!! You then had to fill out this booklet(or marriage manual of some sort) and answer questions with the other half......then every so often you would here, "And now we'll go knee to kee" this soppy music would come on in the background and you would have to review the answers with the other half!
Major Cringe Worthy Stuff

They also split the males and females up into groups for discussion. Some of the stuff people came out with was unreal....you could see they had issues.

The whole thing is really for gob****es who don't realise what they're getting themselves into. I can understand how some people might gain from it but its not something I'd like to go through again

Dataighom

I'd actually forgotten about the music. It's funny how the mind will suppress things that are emotionally damaging.

After i had done the course i had a look around online and i found these guys.
http://premarriagecourse.org/aboutus.aspx

They all seem to have degrees that specalise in Counselling & Psychotherapy as opposed to accord people doing our course whose only qualification was they had a pulse

sharonl

Its not compulsory to do one, it may be for your priest, depending on if they are open minded or not. We;re getting married in July and while our priest recommended we do one, he's leaving it entirely up to us to decide if we do it or not, he said he will be sending the paperwork off wether we choose to do it or not so if we don't do it, it won't stop anything happening, we have been living together for 5 years and are in our 30's and both see the pre marriage course as a bit of a waste of time for us, so we're not doing it. If living together for 5 years and going through all the regular financial/relationship issues that go with it don't prepare you for marriage, then a day long course is certainly not going to, so we won't be wasting our money doing one. Best thing is to check with your priest, we told ours while we would prefer not to do it, and explained why, if he required us to do it we would, but he was happy enough for us not to bother.

bamboozle

recently did the pre-marriage course in all hollows in drumcondra, it cost €150 from 9.30 to about 4.45, i found it useful enough and to be honest with so many silly costs attached to weddings like favours, presents for groomsmen and bridesmaids, buying a round for your guests for the toast etc etc etc i didnt think paying 150 for a pre-marriage course to be an issue as we're getting married in a catholic church.

its very simple in my mind, if you have an issue with the catholic church dont get married in one, if you have an issue with the church and feel you need the church wedding then suck it up and live with the associated costs.

billybunty

Very well put!

prinz

Dataighom wrote: »

The family planning section could be summed up as
"The pill is bad" and we were actually told that the Natural family planning method is 98% effective. I still wonder how many of the other attendees went home and managed to get their girlfriend knocked up because they believed what they were told.

"The Natural Family Planning Method"...as if there wasn't more than one.:rolleyes: Here's a hint, take a look at the actual and possible physical side effects of the pill, then do similar for NFP methods...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6375261.stm

BBC nutjobs?

tinkerbell wrote: »

And this whole thing about natural family planning method being 98% effective, they are off their rocker, feckin nutjobs.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/02/070221065200.htm

Science Daily... nutjobs?

Once the ovaries have released an egg, there is a 24-hour window during which time the egg can be fertilized. However, sperm can remain viable inside a woman for as long as seven days. Therefore, it is possible to become pregnant even if you don't have sex during your most fertile time. For this reason, some couples using this method choose to abstain from sex prior to ovulation. Known as the post-ovulatory temperature method, with perfect use it can be as much as 99% effective.

http://www.epigee.org/guide/symptothermal.html

Effectiveness and acceptibility of the symptothermal method of natural family planning in Germany.
Frank-Herrmann P, Freundl G, Baur S, Bremme M, Döring GK, Godehardt EA, Sottong U.
Frauenklinik Städtisches Krankenhaus, Düsseldorf-Benrath, Germany.
Abstract
Throughout Germany, 851 women who were instructed in natural family planning participated in a prospective study. Of these, 255 women with 3174 cycles used only natural family planning for family planning and 274 women with 3995 cycles occasionally used barrier methods in the fertile phase. For natural family planning--only users, the Pearl rate for unplanned pregnancy was 2.3 and for mixed-method users 2.1.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1755469

For a contraceptive method to be rated highly efficient as the hormonal pill, it requires a method failure rate of less than one pregnancy per 100 women per year. Our method-effectiveness of 0.4% can be interpreted as one pregnancy occurring per 3250 cycles (assuming a 13 cycle year). We therefore maintain that the method effectiveness of the STM investigated in this study is comparable to the method effectiveness of modern contraceptive methods like oral contraceptives.

http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/5/1310

This is the first time that a large STM database has been established with sufficient detailed information on sexual behaviour. It enables the true method effectiveness for the STM to be calculated. Our results show that 0.4 unintended pregnancies occurred per 100 women years, if there was abstinence during the fertile time. In addition, our results showed that when barrier methods were used during the fertile time the rate of unintended pregnancies was not significantly different. The use-effectiveness of the method, i.e. the overall pregnancy rate was 1.8% after 13 cycles of use

ibid.

Idiot nutjobs indeed :rolleyes: I can see why a pre-marriage course wouldn't be of any use for people who already think they have all the answers.

tatli_lokma

Dataighom wrote: »

I still wonder how many of the other attendees went home and managed to get their girlfriend knocked up because they believed what they were told.

well, just to play devils advocate (or priests advocate )....technically, in the eyes of the catholic church you should not be indulging in sex before marriage anyway, so that being the case you are quite unlikely to get your girlfriend knocked up!

Yes, personally I agree, that the catholic concept of the pill is bad, no sex before marriage and holier than thou preaching about marriage is a total waste of time - I would not go if you paid me, let alone me paying €150.
BUT it is a CATHOLIC service you are looking for. The catholic church condones use of contraception, sex before marriage, divorce etc etc. If you have a serious problem with that then get married elsewhere, otherwise as other posters have said suck it up. Its not like these concepts are new in the catholic church - thems the rules and have been for centuries!

bamboozle wrote:

its very simple in my mind, if you have an issue with the catholic church dont get married in one, if you have an issue with the church and feel you need the church wedding then suck it up and live with the associated costs.

+1

I have problems with these issues, therefore did not get married in a church, therefore did not need to pay €150 to be preached at by someone who has no prior understanding of me or my relationship.

It comes down to where you want your wedding - in a catholic church? then you have to tolerate the catholic rituals and requirements. If you are lucky enough to find a priest to forgoe this then great, otherwise just mark it down as one of those things that has to be done.

tatli_lokma

prinz wrote: »

Idiot nutjobs indeed :rolleyes: I can see why a pre-marriage course wouldn't be of any use for people who already think they have all the answers.

point accepted, but would you be advising this to your teenage daughter???

I agree with you - there is a wide range of NFP methods out there, and to dismiss them as 'religious nonsense' is in itself nonsense. However, personally, I wouldn't be disciplined enough to be doing with all that faffing around!
But as you rightly point out, these are accepted methods, and if you are a practicing catholic then you should be happy enough to accept this as other forms of contraception are not acceptable to the catholic ethos.

prinz

Cincikchick wrote: »

point accepted, but would you be advising this to your teenage daughter??? .

I would point out the pros and cons of all methods. Particularly the health risks associated with some forms which are all to often ignored.

Cincikchick wrote: »

But as you rightly point out, these are accepted methods, and if you are a practicing catholic then you should be happy enough to accept this as other forms of contraception are not acceptable to the catholic ethos.

Agreed. The irony is that IMO the people who go to the prep courses, get married in the church etc are the first ones to turn around and accuse the catholic church of hypocrisy. As you rightly pointed out, don't like it, don't go.

H8GHOTI

eoin wrote: »

There was another thread on this recently about the pre-marriage courses, and many of the people who had actually been on them (myself included) said that they were actually far more useful than they expected. In general, the people who wrote them off as a complete waste of time hadn't attended one themselves.

The one I went on was very light on the religious side of things. The only issue I had was the family planning module, but apart from that, we got something out of it (to our surprise). Even if you've been living together for a few years, there's a good chance it might raise some questions that you mightn't have discussed between yourselves.

If you don't mind, could you tell me what you did find useful & what questions it raised that you hadn't already discussed?

Eoin

Questions like how many children you both want, when you both want them and what you'll do if you find out you can't conceive naturally. Other topics like dealing with conflict etc.

It's a few years ago now so can't remember for definite, but along those sort of lines. Not that they were topics that had never come up, but they might have been ones that you hadn't gone into in detail. Some couples want kids immediately and incessantly bore everyone discuss it a lot, while other couples might only have talked about having kids somewhere down the line.

Reading my post, I realise that it sounds like really obvious stuff, but there was more to it.

Heineken Helen

bamboozle wrote: »

recently did the pre-marriage course in all hollows in drumcondra, it cost €150 from 9.30 to about 4.45, i found it useful enough and to be honest with so many silly costs attached to weddings like favours, presents for groomsmen and bridesmaids, buying a round for your guests for the toast etc etc etc i didnt think paying 150 for a pre-marriage course to be an issue as we're getting married in a catholic church.

its very simple in my mind, if you have an issue with the catholic church dont get married in one, if you have an issue with the church and feel you need the church wedding then suck it up and live with the associated costs.

Well said, I'm catholic and we'll be getting married in a catholic church. I don't agree with everything that is catholic but if something's necessary in order for us to get married, well I'll simply jump through that hoop

However, the oh is not at all happy about this thing... I'm just worried he may answer questions truthfully :eek::D

coolusername

Heineken Helen wrote: »

if something's necessary in order for us to get married, well I'll simply jump through that hoop

I agree with that !

Although I do have one question (which may be a little stupid, but sure, anyway...!): Do the Pre-Marriage certificates have a validity period? For example, do you need to get married within a year of completing the course, or something?