Che Guevara (Mod Note: read full thread before posting)

Junior D

I was in history class the other day when I happened to mention Guevara's name, when suddenly a war nearly broke out. Personally I see him as a hero who had his problems, but I love the way he stood for his opinions. However, other people in my class see him as a scumbag. I'd like to know what the general opinion on him is.

Nelson Mandela has referred to him as: "An inspiration for every human being who loves freedom"

biko

Interesting, what did the people that didn't like him say?
Was there comparisons to Michael Collins?

Junior D

Basically they blasted the harsh and ruthless regeime he developed and claimed he was nothing more than a blood-thirsty tyrant. Even though I think of him as a hero, I remember reading how once he blasted mens heads in pieces from just feet away with huge slugs. Although I do think this was excessive these men were themselves tyrants from Batistas regeime and the hopeful ends justified the means.

biko

Well it was violent times. To me (and a lot of people I think) he was a hero.
The historians will argue back and forth but in the context of the times I think he did the right thing, as Michael Collins did.

fontanalis

Junior D wrote: »

Basically they blasted the harsh and ruthless regeime he developed and claimed he was nothing more than a blood-thirsty tyrant. Even though I think of him as a hero, I remember reading how once he blasted mens heads in pieces from just feet away with huge slugs. Although I do think this was excessive these men were themselves tyrants from Batistas regeime and the hopeful ends justified the means.

But Cubas a basket case ran by nepotism, one shyte regime doesn't deserve another. I think people get caught up in the romanticism of that iconic photograph.

Junior D

I think people get caught up in the romanticism of that iconic photograph.

Well for me its not the photograph which makes him a standout icon, its his ideals, theories and motivations for making the change. As for the people he killed, they were the real villains who wanted the corroupt situation to continue and rightly so they were crushed

fontanalis

Junior D wrote: »

I think people get caught up in the romanticism of that iconic photograph.

Well for me its not the photograph which makes him a standout icon, its his ideals, theories and motivations for making the change. As for the people he killed, they were the real villains who wanted the corroupt situation to continue and rightly so they were crushed

And the Cuba that came after is something to be proud of?

R.Dub.Fusilier

i dont think he is a hero at all. he stayed behind the lines and left others to do the fighting. how great can he be when his idols were communist tyrants and his loyality was to communism which was responsible for the deaths of countless millions of people around the world.

and why on earth is he being compared to Michael Collins?

donaghs

Magnus wrote: »

Well it was violent times. To me (and a lot of people I think) he was a hero.
The historians will argue back and forth but in the context of the times I think he did the right thing, as Michael Collins did.

I don't think you can accuse him of staying behind the lines. He was involved in the frontlines in Cuba, and then later in Bolivia. And to some extent in the Congo, but that was a farce of an expedition.

I think he was idealistic and well intentioned, but did he achieve anything of value? One dictatorship replaced another. You could argue that the newer regime is fairer. Anything else?

When put in charge of the Cuban economy his crazy policies destroyed the economy within a few years, causing hardship for the Cuban people.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that he acted violently as he lived in "violent times". I'm no admirer of Batista but its worth remembering that Castro and other rebels had years earlier been released by Batista in an amnesty. Che prefered to execute his enemies so that he had seen the last of them.

biko

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

i dont think he is a hero at all. he stayed behind the lines and left others to do the fighting. how great can he be when his idols were communist tyrants and his loyality was to communism which was responsible for the deaths of countless millions of people around the world.

and why on earth is he being compared to Michael Collins?

He did fight and has a number of killings to his name (I suspect you'd call them murders). He, like Collins, was a major part of a revolution to overthrow a puppet regime and succeeded.

Don't bring the old "communism kills" into this, capitalism is still killing people in Iraq as we speak.

What other revolutionary political leader has participated in the overthrow of a reactionary regime, been for several years a leading figure in the new government and then voluntarily gone off to another front in the revolutionary struggle, as he saw it?

fontanalis

Magnus wrote: »

He did fight and has a number of killings to his name (I suspect you'd call them murders). He, like Collins, was a major part of a revolution to overthrow a puppet regime and succeeded.

Don't bring the old "communism kills" into this, capitalism is still killing people in Iraq as we speak.

What other revolutionary political leader has participated in the overthrow of a reactionary regime, been for several years a leading figure in the new government and then voluntarily gone off to another front in the revolutionary struggle, as he saw it?

Wow, I know who to ignore in this thread from now on.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Magnus wrote: »

Don't bring the old "communism kills" into this, capitalism is still killing people in Iraq as we speak.

why not? he was politicaly a communist / marxist and supported communist/marxist tyrants and the the so-called "workers republics".

and just for the record i think capitalism has killed as many people as Guevara's communism.

i have no problem with people taking up arms to over throw tyrants and oppressors in their own countries such as Collins , Pearse and the Irish Volunteers etc. but the "hero" Guevara went to other countries in south america and africa to help spread , with the use of murder and terror , communism which as we all know was responsible for the deaths, murder and stavation of millions more innocent people than the Third Reich or the british empire.

grenache

On a side note, i'm sure this has been mentioned many times before, but his full name is Che Guevara Lynch. He has relations in both Galway and Kerry. One of the Kerry lads in the my supporters club is a third cousin of his.

seanybiker

Cant understand his hero status. He murdered people. Whats heroic about that?

Artur.PL

As a person who lived in the soviet times in Poland I can't see him as a hero. He adored Stalin's verison of communism, he is known as the organizer of the first labor camp in Cuba where the homosexuals and dissidents and later people with AIDS were kept.

Junior D

He adored Stalin's verison of communism

I'd just like to point out that Che had a general dislike of the Soviet model for communism, and favoured the the Chinese model formed by Mao. He apparently dreaded his compulsary visits to Russia, but relished his Chinese visits, where he was seen more as a hero

Artur.PL

Later he was, but not from the beginning. After Nikita Khrushchev's Secret Speech he said that was an imperialistic propaganda not truth. He approved of soviet invasion in Hungary in 1956 also.

R.Dub.Fusilier

Junior D wrote: »

I'd just like to point out that Che had a general dislike of the Soviet model for communism, and favoured the the Chinese model formed by Mao.

what made this version any better than the original ? the mass execuations , the starvation , the inprisonment of countless chinese citizens ?

R.Dub.Fusilier

Artur.PL wrote: »

He approved of soviet invasion in Hungary in 1956 also.

wasnt sure what his view was on this .thanks

brianthebard

Artur.PL wrote: »

He approved of soviet invasion in Hungary in 1956 also.

Link/Evidence?

Artur.PL

brianthebard wrote: »

Link/Evidence?

Only in polish language. I've just read about that long time ago.

brianthebard

I'll suspend belief until I see a link so.

twitch1984

Wheather people think he is a hero or not is everyones personal opinion. The main problem is people think they know everything about che just because they have a t-shirt/poster etc.. with his picture on it.
Personally I think he was a hero fighting for what he believed in. Just because someone doesnt understand or agree with the reasons he was fighting doesnt make him a scumbag or tyrant.
If you look back at our own civil war there would still be a divide as to who were heros and who were scumbags. It just depends what side of the fence your on

R.Dub.Fusilier

twitch1984 wrote: »

Just because someone doesnt understand or agree with the reasons he was fighting doesnt make him a scumbag or tyrant.

your the only poster to bring "scumbag" into the debate.

twitch1984

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

your the only poster to bring "scumbag" into the debate.

Read the first post again..........

dlofnep

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

he stayed behind the lines and left others to do the fighting.

Wrong.

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

how great can he be when his idols were communist tyrants and his loyality was to communism which was responsible for the deaths of countless millions of people around the world.

Communism wasn't responsible for one death. The people behind the wheel of states that may have used communist policies on the other hand is a different story. Che was a marxist. He saw mass inequality in Cuba and created the framework that corrected what Batista promoted.

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

and why on earth is he being compared to Michael Collins?

I would imagine because both were revolutionaries.

dlofnep

seanybiker wrote: »

Cant understand his hero status. He murdered people. Whats heroic about that?

He fought in part of a civil war, with intent on removing Batista and his supporters. The same Batista that hung children from lamposts to warn off enemies. The same Batista that allowed for mass civil and economic inequality.

Today's Cuba, while not perfect affords everyone the right to have a roof over their head, free access to education up to university level and free access to healthcare. Cuba's literacy rating is higher than the US's. It does all this, despite an embargo on it from the US. Anyone who doesn't find the above impressive, from a country which is inherently poor - is in some serious denial.

Che Guevara was certainly and is certainly worthy of hero status. Civil war is never pretty - but in the sake of Cuba, it was certainly a necessary evil.

R.Dub.Fusilier

twitch1984 wrote: »

Read the first post again..........

sorry . my mistake . i was lookig in the antis for scumbag didnt think it was in the op.

"Communism wasn't responsible for one death. The people behind the wheel of states that may have used communist policies on the other hand is a different story." come on . to say it was the people behind communism and not those who carried it out , who were communists / marxists , and the mass murder of millions and millions dying in the gulags that followed is a bit much. every country behind the old iorn curtain suffered none more than russia.

"He fought in part of a civil war, with intent on removing Batista and his supporters. The same Batista that hung children from lamposts to warn off enemies. The same Batista that allowed for mass civil and economic inequality."
replace the word batista with communism / marxism and the same could have been said about communist cuba or any countries over run by communism.

"Today's Cuba, while not perfect affords everyone the right to have a roof over their head, free access to education up to university level and free access to healthcare. Cuba's literacy rating is higher than the US's. It does all this, despite an embargo on it from the US. Anyone who doesn't find the above impressive, from a country which is inherently poor - is in some serious denial."
i agree with some of what you say here and the embargo is wrong as the one on iraq was wrong , but if what you say about how cuba is so great , why has there been so many refuges fleeing cuba in little boats for decades rather than live in the communist utopia that has always been promised to the communist foot soldiers before the revolutions? they took their chances in the ocean for a chance of freedom in another country rather than live in their homeland.

donaghs

Che supported the 1956 invasion of Hungary.

brianthebard wrote: »

Link/Evidence?

I've read this too. Most recently here: Jorge Companero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara
http://www.amazon.com/Companero-Life-Death-Che-Guevara/dp/0679759409

And how he was annoyed with Kruschev for comdemning Stalin. The more I've read of Che, the more of a dissapointment he becomes post Cuban revolution.

Where are the redeeming characteristics? What good did he do?

The disinterested reaction of Bolivian peasant to his "revolution" was very telling.

To go back to the Cuban Civil War, it wasn't a Marxist Che force which overthrew Batista. It was a larger coalition. As Castro moved further towards the Soviets, many in the revoutionary movement who disagreed were jailed or forced to flee. Even in the early years there was talk of the revolution being betrayed. e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huber_Matos

seanybiker

twitch1984 wrote: »

Wheather people think he is a hero or not is everyones personal opinion. The main problem is people think they know everything about che just because they have a t-shirt/poster etc.. with his picture on it.
Personally I think he was a hero fighting for what he believed in. Just because someone doesnt understand or agree with the reasons he was fighting doesnt make him a scumbag or tyrant.
If you look back at our own civil war there would still be a divide as to who were heros and who were scumbags. It just depends what side of the fence your on

sure didnt hitler fight for what he believed in. Sadly one of my mates thinks he is a hero. Fecking plonker. Not you, my mate.

dlofnep

seanybiker wrote: »

sure didnt hitler fight for what he believed in. Sadly one of my mates thinks he is a hero. Fecking plonker. Not you, my mate.

Hitler fought for a supreme race and murdered 6 million jews.

Che Guevara fought to remove a brutal dictator that hung children from lamposts, who upheld mass social inequality.

They are hardly comparable Seán.

If you compare Cuba from before and after Ché, there is a quantifiable improvement in the lives of Cubans.

Only 8% of the rural population of Cuba had access to healthcare before Ché - Now 100% of cubans have access to healthcare. 23% of Cubans were illiterate before Ché - Now it's down to between 3-4%. Unemployment was reduced, homeless rates were reduced. Cuba is a better place because of Ché Guevara.

Likening him to Adolf Hitler is silly.

donaghs

Probably more accuarate to say that Cuba was a better place to live after any control over the economy was taken away from Che.

In his defence, he was hard-working (e.g. long office hours and volunteering to cut sugar cane) and well-intentioned (trying to raise living standards and grow the Cuban economy). But still incompentant. Like many a Marxist before him he thought he could change peoples fundamental nature through agit-prop, hard work, and a lack of material incentives.

Is also a fair point that "fighting for what you believe in" isnt always a good thing.

dlofnep

donaghs wrote: »

Probably more accuarate to say that Cuba was a better place to live after any control over the economy was taken away from Che.

Cuba is a socialist state. That would not be more accurate.

donaghs wrote: »

Is also a fair point that "fighting for what you believe in" isnt always a good thing.

It is a fair point if it's meant in a general consensus. It's not a fair point in regards to Ché - as his work directly bettered the lives of Cubans. What he fought for, and what he believed in - is the reason why Cuba, despite being ridiculously poor - has better healthcare penetration, and better literacy rates than it's larger neighbour.

ejmaztec

This is some anti-Che propaganda on a site presumably set up by those opposing the Castro regime.

http://www.therealcuba.com/MurderedbyChe.htm

paky

Junior D wrote: »

I was in history class the other day when I happened to mention Guevara's name, when suddenly a war nearly broke out. Personally I see him as a hero who had his problems, but I love the way he stood for his opinions. However, other people in my class see him as a scumbag. I'd like to know what the general opinion on him is.

Nelson Mandela has referred to him as: "An inspiration for every human being who loves freedom"

Che Guevara today would be classed a terrorist. no different from todays real ira

brianthebard

*sigh* I didn't think things would get like this. The thread is about Che, the historiography relating to, etc.
It is not about Cuba. There are plenty of threads in politics on that topic. I'll decide later if I'm bothered deleting the off topic posts, but from now on its either about Che Guevara or its off topic, and that's not allowed. Mod.

dlofnep

Apologies for going off-topic. It's hard to separate Ché and Cuba when discussing his works. I'll try keep the content more relevant to Ché as an individual.

brianthebard

I don't have a problem with discussing the politics and running of Cuba while he was finance minister but once he left that position he no longer had any input and thus it doesn't relate to the thread topic.

brianthebard

Posts without reference to Che deleted. Keep it topical people.

Junior D

brianthebard wrote: »

*sigh* I didn't think things would get like this. The thread is about Che, the historiography relating to, etc.
It is not about Cuba. There are plenty of threads in politics on that topic. I'll decide later if I'm bothered deleting the off topic posts, but from now on its either about Che Guevara or its off topic, and that's not allowed. Mod.

But how Cuba is today, is because of Che. Che cant really be discussed without referring to the legacy he has left behind, and that is modern Cuba isn't it?

ejmaztec

Junior D wrote: »

But how Cuba is today, is because of Che. Che cant really be discussed without referring to the legacy he has left behind, and that is modern Cuba isn't it?

I get the impression that Castro wasn't as left-wing as Che, but pretty much left Che to his own devices after the revolution. With Che dead, I don't think that Cuba became as extreme as Che would have wanted.

I also think that Soviet money, technology and influence made Cuba what it is today, and that the Castro regime would have failed by the end of the 60s without this backing.

shqipshume

For them he was a hero for the other side he was a terrorist.So if they can call IRA terrorists from back in the years of freedom then so shall he be called.
Someone said like Micheal Collins above.Yeah in the regard called terrorists in their own country by their own people.But i dont think many of his people would sell his men and his name up river so fast.

Personally i think anyone who stands up against oppressors of the people are heroes.So che wanted better for people so land mark hero.

brianthebard

Junior D wrote: »

But how Cuba is today, is because of Che. Che cant really be discussed without referring to the legacy he has left behind, and that is modern Cuba isn't it?

I deleted about a dozen messages that had no relation to the thread topic/Che. There is a political forum for a reason and if people want to talk about the politics of Cuba they are welcome to do so there. But this is a history forum and thus the discussions should be about historical issues. It is possible to talk about the politics of Cuba while Che was finance minister as I already said, but once he left that position then his connection to Cuban politics ends, and so the discussion of Cuban politics in this thread should also end. There's no point in me saying that people can discuss modern Cuba if its with reference to Che, because people will just continue their off-topic bickering and throw the occasional name drop to avoid censorship. I'm not going to allow that.

AttackThePoster

dlofnep wrote: »

Wrong.



Communism wasn't responsible for one death. The people behind the wheel of states that may have used communist policies on the other hand is a different story. Che was a marxist. He saw mass inequality in Cuba and created the framework that corrected what Batista promoted.



I would imagine because both were revolutionaries.

Um, what about the camps?

AttackThePoster

dlofnep wrote: »

Hitler fought for a supreme race and murdered 6 million jews.

Do people still forget that Jewish people weren't the only ones that were sent to their deaths at the camps?

ejmaztec

AttackThePoster wrote: »

Do people still forget that Jewish people weren't the only ones that were sent to their deaths at the camps?

Only in Hollywood, but that's beside the point.

brianthebard

AttackthePoster infracted for ignoring 4 (yes four) in thread warnings. Last warning for everyone.

Snickers Man

grenache wrote: »

On a side note, i'm sure this has been mentioned many times before, but his full name is Che Guevara Lynch. He has relations in both Galway and Kerry. One of the Kerry lads in the my supporters club is a third cousin of his.

No it wasn't. His full name was Ernesto Guevara De La Serna.

In the Spanish tradition, your full name comprises both your father's and mother's surnames. Che's mother was De La Serna so that was where he got the second half of his surname.

His father was indeed called Ernesto Guevara Lynch for exactly the same reason. So Che's granny was indeed called Lynch but she was of American origin. I think his Irish ancestry goes some way back.

As to whether I regard him as a hero or not. I think it is always dangerous to idolise somebody from a situation of which one has no particular knowledge. The Batista regime was indeed brutal, but Castro (and his lieutenants like Che) were guilty of some excesses as well.

Having said which, Cuba has done remarkably well as a society in the face of a debilitating blockade and swingeing trade embargo by the United States.

For an island with few export markets and limited capital investment it still has basic health indicators (infant mortality, life expectancy etc) which compare with western democracies. If you doubt this, don't take my word for it. Go to that bible of the dry factual statistic the CIA world factbook and see how Cuba's indicators in those areas stack up against western democracies on the one hand, and other Latin American countries on the other.

Not to mention African countries where the life expectancy for men is often in the 40s.

Rebelheart

paky wrote: »

Che Guevara today would be classed a terrorist. no different from todays real ira

As would George Washington. Your point?

Then again the sort of people who throw the word "terrorism" at anybody who uses violence to achieve aims contrary to their own (violence-supported) aims are generally grade A idiots of the Bill O'Reilly/George Bush/Jim Allister type.

They're not even intelligent rightwingers like P. J. O'Rourke. For them it's just a nice, simplistic modern-day cowboys versus "Indians", western civilisation versus "terrorism". They are as offensive as the PC-driven "liberal" (the PC motivation usually nullifying the genuinely liberal aspect of their positions) types any day. And more is the pity.

Rebelheart

Snickers Man wrote: »

No it wasn't. His full name was Ernesto Guevara De La Serna.

In the Spanish tradition, your full name comprises both your father's and mother's surnames. Che's mother was De La Serna so that was where he got the second half of his surname.

His father was indeed called Ernesto Guevara Lynch for exactly the same reason. So Che's granny was indeed called Lynch but she was of American origin. I think his Irish ancestry goes some way back.

Good man, Marathon. And of course, while he came from the Lynch family of Gaillimh (Patrick Lynch, born Galway 1715, appears to be the earliest known relative), that Lynch family had left Cnoc an Línsigh in Meath in the 14th century. Cnoc an Línsigh was known as "Lynch's Knocks" in English until around 1667 when it was renamed Summerhill. You can still see the quite massive ruins of Lynchs' Castle in Summerhill there today. There was a massive battle there in 1647, the Battle of Dungan's Hill.

Snickers Man wrote: »

As to whether I regard him as a hero or not. I think it is always dangerous to idolise somebody from a situation of which one has no particular knowledge. The Batista regime was indeed brutal, but Castro (and his lieutenants like Che) were guilty of some excesses as well.

Fair comment. Heroes are very thin on the ground the longer one lives, I find. If there are "heroes" they are probably the mothers or fathers of large families who work huge hours and overcome massive obstacles - drugs, abuse, poverty etc - to provide for their families without any recognition.

Snickers Man

Rebelheart wrote: »

Heroes are very thin on the ground the longer one lives, I find. If there are "heroes" they are probably the mothers or fathers of large families who work huge hours and overcome massive obstacles - drugs, abuse, poverty etc - to provide for their families without any recognition.

Ah g'wan ya big PC softie!!

You just said that because it was Mother's Day!