Why change oil after a year?

woody33

My little 1 liter '97 Polo, with 145K miles up,has only done 4K Miles in the year, (not driven every day and usually with the coolant temp getting up to normal when it goes on a run) but all the oil info says to change once a year. I will change oil and filter soon anyway, but I wonder why oil goes off while sitting in an engine? I used Duckhams 10w-40 semi-synth last change, I don't know if there is anything cheaper and/or better around?

Mr.David

Because the Americans will have found and stolen your oil after a period of 1 year, no doubt claiming your vehicle to be a weapon of mass destruction?

I've heard they do that sort of thing.....:)

stevenmu

Oil will degrade over time, it reacts with the air and picks up moisture etc which reduces it's effiency.

I'm listening

You should be grand until the day you find some people with blue caps and UN written on their clothes inspecting your car.. Once that happens....Hide

I'm listening

woody33 wrote: »

My little 1 liter '97 Polo, with 145K miles up,has only done 4K Miles in the year, (not driven every day and usually with the coolant temp getting up to normal when it goes on a run) but all the oil info says to change once a year. I will change oil and filter soon anyway, but I wonder why oil goes off while sitting in an engine? I used Duckhams 10w-40 semi-synth last change, I don't know if there is anything cheaper and/or better around?

There are many factors at work — how you drive, the condition and age of the engine, the external environment you drive in, and stop-and-go versus Motorway driving.
Be on the safe side and change twice a year

Hal1

I would change it depending on the frequency of use. Or if the oil looks black. Bang on a new oil filter if changing it and a new sump plug.

Yawns

also as your car is getting older you might look at 20w-50 oil it's a thicker mix and might be better for the older engine. Just ask an expert for sure tho, I was told this recently

fonecrusher1

Because its good practice & its something and you can do yourself no problem.
The oil filter can only do so much to keep the oil fresh & after that point its just working its way around the engine becoming more & more contaminated & less affective as a lubricant which accelerates engine wear & tear etc etc.
As someone else said it doesn't matter if the car isn't used much, the oil still gradually goes off.

Yawns

Also if your going to be doing it yourself it might be worth it to get an oil suction pump. Just a simple tube in where the dipstick goes and it'll suck all the oil out. A lot less messier. No sump nut removal needed. They can be expensive but if you shop around (across the border) you should find one cheap enough. It'll more than pay for it's self after like 2 uses as it saves so much time and mess. Defo handy if there's many in your family or friends with a car as they can use it too.

Only messy part left is the oil filter itsself which is easy enough. You can also get an oil filter grip which fits most oil filters ( yet to come across one mine hasn't fit ) which is handy too as it can grip it better and gives more leverage for a turn. Looks like a vice-grips can be found cheap in most motor factors.

fonecrusher1

Yawns wrote: »

Also if your going to be doing it yourself it might be worth it to get an oil suction pump. Just a simple tube in where the dipstick goes and it'll suck all the oil out. A lot less messier. No sump nut removal needed. They can be expensive but if you shop around (across the border) you should find one cheap enough. It'll more than pay for it's self after like 2 uses as it saves so much time and mess. Defo handy if there's many in your family or friends with a car as they can use it too.

Only messy part left is the oil filter itsself which is easy enough. You can also get an oil filter grip which fits most oil filters ( yet to come across one mine hasn't fit ) which is handy too as it can grip it better and gives more leverage for a turn. Looks like a vice-grips can be found cheap in most motor factors.

Whats wrong with popping the sump plug & letting gravity take over?:)

Scruff

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Whats wrong with popping the sump plug & letting gravity take over?:)

not tightening the sump plug properly afterwards and having it destroy your drive way!
As happened the last time a "professional" changed my oil when it was getting a bit of work done.....

stevenmu

Don't forget when taking off the sump plug you also need to (or at least should) change the washer that goes with it.

(I can't remember exactly what they're called, crush gasket?)

woody33

I'm well used to changing oil and filter on my own cars, always with German filters. I wouldn't mind finding a good cheaper oil though. I was surprised to see my trusted local mechanic using a suction device the other day, but he said they work well. Still, I'd prefer to put the money towards the oil. And yeah, I did once dump a load of oil out through a badly-tightened filter - always wise to do a visual check after re-starting the engine.

fonecrusher1

Scruff wrote: »

not tightening the sump plug properly afterwards and having it destroy your drive way!
As happened the last time a "professional" changed my oil when it was getting a bit of work done.....

And thats exactly why i change the oil myself.:)
On the two occasions i have had my car "professionally" serviced, the car came back with oil on the driver seat the first time & the second time some clown had left a cigarette on the dash & there was a scorch mark burned into the plastic speedometer window.

JHMEG

A car of that age, mileage and value I wouldn't be too arsed about oil changes. Change it every 10k miles (or whatever you've been doing) and you'll be fine.

fonecrusher1

JHMEG wrote: »

A car of that age, mileage and value I wouldn't be too arsed about oil changes. Change it every 10k miles (or whatever you've been doing) and you'll be fine.

I would be arsed about how often the oil is changed but i couldn't care less if it was that expensive Castrol oil or halfords cheap home brand. Oil is oil.

GTE

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Oil is oil.

If that is the case then why doesnt every oil brand get the manufacturers official stamp?
For example
VW 505.01
BMW-LL-01
MB 229.5

fonecrusher1

bbk wrote: »

If that is the case then why doesnt every oil brand get the manufacturers official stamp?
For example
VW 505.01
BMW-LL-01
MB 229.5

Not sure what your talking about. Explain?

GTE

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Not sure what your talking about. Explain?

Since you asked so nicely :rolleyes:


VW is the brand I know about so I’ll talk about them.

For my engine the only oil VW have allowed to be used in it is an oil that conforms to the VW505.00 standard. There are some newer ones but I’ll leave them out for clarity. They also have stated that all their TDI engines should be filled with fully synth oil 5w40 (or 0w40 according to some TDI gurus up in the colder parts of the USA).


The newer version of my engine has some different bits and bobs in it and VW explicitly only allow oils that have passed their tests and conform to the VW505.01 standard.

If you use the older VW505.00 oil in the new engine that needs VW505.01 then you are going to end up with engine trouble of some sort down the line and engine go boom basically.

For the most recent TDI I think they are at VW507 or 509. You cant use the older 505.00 or 502 with those new engines.


VW and other manufacturers test the oils and then once they pass they are given the official stamp.
Keep in mind there may be a fair few out there that do conform to the standard for your car.
Your owners manual will have the details needed for that.

Some brands of oil do have the VW505.01 or whatever it is written on the bottle but have some kind of * or blurb about it being recommended, but they don’t actually have the official go ahead from VW.

Here is an example of the VW Cert (and soome others) for the Total Quartz 9000 oil which is stocked locally for me, so tis why I know about it.

fonecrusher1

bbk wrote: »

Since you asked so nicely :rolleyes:


VW is the brand I know about so I’ll talk about them.

For my engine the only oil VW have allowed to be used in it is an oil that conforms to the VW505.00 standard. There are some newer ones but I’ll leave them out for clarity. They also have stated that all their TDI engines should be filled with fully synth oil 5w40 (or 0w40 according to some TDI gurus up in the colder parts of the USA).


The newer version of my engine has some different bits and bobs in it and VW explicitly only allow oils that have passed their tests and conform to the VW505.01 standard.

If you use the older VW505.00 oil in the new engine that needs VW505.01 then you are going to end up with engine trouble of some sort down the line and engine go boom basically.

VW and other manufacturers test the oils and then once they pass they are given the official stamp.

Some brands of oil do have the VW505.01 or whatever it is written on the bottle but have some kind of * or blurb about it being recommended, but they don’t actually have the official go ahead from VW.

Here is an example of the VW Cert (and soome others) for the Total Quartz 9000 oil which is stocked locally for me, so tis why I know about it.

Thanks for the detailed explanation but do you not think its a bit of a racket to make you buy certain oil brands?
Surely if you adhered to the recommended viscosity there would be very little difference to the engine.

Oh & by the way we're talking about a 1997 1 liter VW polo!! I wouldn't be too picky about the quality/brand of oil used. Its only worth a few hundred euro.

GTE

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed explanation but do you not think its a bit of a racket to make you buy certain oil brands?
Surely if you adhered to the recommended viscosity there would be very little difference to the engine.

Oh & by the way we're talking about a 1997 1 liter VW polo!! I wouldn't be too picky about the quality/brand of oil used. Its only worth a few hundred euro.

No, not a racket at all for me personally. The Quartz 9000 is some of the cheaper oil in my place so I dont mind at all
And take service stations as an example, you would expect all the petrol and diesel to be of the same standard, but they you can get some utter crap.

I dont really care what car its for to be honest. If you plan to run it into the ground a few extra quid or some quid less if you look around will keep your engine going for that lil bit longer.

Anyway, your main question has been answered.

fonecrusher1

In this case for the car that the OP has.....oil is oil.:D

Show me solid conclusive proof that using cheaper oil in a car will damage it or using high grade/expensive oil will improve a cars performance.;)

Tea drinker

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed explanation but do you not think its a bit of a racket to make you buy certain oil brands?
Surely if you adhered to the recommended viscosity there would be very little difference to the engine.

No, for some engines it really is required.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Oh & by the way we're talking about a 1997 1 liter VW polo!! I wouldn't be too picky about the quality/brand of oil used. Its only worth a few hundred euro.

You're not wrong! I'm sure it's fairly tolerant of whatever you put in it.
Still for the cost of it I would change every 8-10K or approx 12 months.
Depending if it was an oil of colour or not ;-)

T-Maxx

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

In this case for the car that the OP has.....oil is oil.:D

Show me solid conclusive proof that using cheaper oil in a car will damage it or using high grade/expensive oil will improve a cars performance.;)

With your level of ignorance and attitude you'd best not give any advice here.

martyc5674

What jhmeg says...spend your money on something else!!

GTE

Upon reading up on the older VW petrol engines they seem to be prone to a bit of sludge, so if you ignore the VW standard stuff Id say you are best off with a 5w30 rather then a 10w40 but Id need to be backed up on this by some pros.

Eoin

T-Maxx wrote: »

With your level of ignorance and attitude you'd best not give any advice here.

No more of that.

fonecrusher1

bbk wrote: »

Upon reading up on the older VW petrol engines they seem to be prone to a bit of sludge, so if you ignore the VW standard stuff Id say you are best off with a 5w30 rather then a 10w40 but Id need to be backed up on this by some pros.

Although i will admit that it does seem that newer VW's do require specific oils that are recommended by the manufacturer, in all fairness would you really go to the same trouble for a 13 year old car with 145k on it?

500sel

Yawns wrote: »

also as your car is getting older you might look at 20w-50 oil it's a thicker mix and might be better for the older engine. Just ask an expert for sure tho, I was told this recently

The hydraulic lifters in this engine are designed to run on 10w40 semi syntetic. using 20w50 will cause the lifters to wear due its "thicker mix"
stick to what is recomended be it castrol 10w40 or lidil 10w40
Thats your choice.

500sel

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Although i will admit that it does seem that newer VW's do require specific oils that are recommended by the manufacturer, in all fairness would you really go to the same trouble for a 13 year old car with 145k on it?

as above

GTE

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Although i will admit that it does seem that newer VW's do require specific oils that are recommended by the manufacturer, in all fairness would you really go to the same trouble for a 13 year old car with 145k on it?

Depending on the availabilty of the oil and how reasonable the price is then I would have to say yes.

I have a 10 year old car with 155,000 miles on the clock and I wouldnt want to chuck anything else into it other then the VW505 fully synth.
You can get 250,000+ miles on the engine I have and I intend get as far as I can with the car. Id prefer the car to break then any of the mechanicaly components. Ive even read some as high as 340k miles on an 2002 TDI Golf. Crazy stuff!

Also, the furthest back that I can see a VW standard applied to is 1996.


EDIT: On the mileage front
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2749168&postcount=133
Madness

fonecrusher1

500sel wrote: »

The hydraulic lifters in this engine are designed to run on 10w40 semi syntetic. using 20w50 will cause the lifters to wear due its "thicker mix"
stick to what is recomended be it castrol 10w40 or lidil 10w40
Thats your choice.

Thanks.Thats what i was getting at before that ignoramus jumped in.
I know you have to stick to a certain viscosity (ie; 10w40 or whatever) but i don't think theres much of a difference between very expensive brand stuff & halford's engine oil.
Ive been using halfords oil for a year & my car runs fine. Ive also bought dear stuff in the past & i didn't notice any difference.

bbk i take your point as well.

T-Maxx

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

The oil filter can only do so much to keep the oil fresh & after that point its just working its way around the engine becoming more & more contaminated & less affective as a lubricant which accelerates engine wear & tear etc etc.

The oil filter doesn't keep the oil "fresh", it simply filters out solid particles above a certain size.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I would be arsed about how often the oil is changed but i couldn't care less if it was that expensive Castrol oil or halfords cheap home brand. Oil is oil.

Halfords' own brand of oils are just as good or better as any other. FYI Halfords oil is rebadged Mobil oil, and as such is only marginally cheaper than the "big" brands. Castrol is not the be-all-end-all either.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Not sure what your talking about. Explain?

Never seen or heard of these specs no?

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Thanks for the detailed explanation but do you not think its a bit of a racket to make you buy certain oil brands?
Surely if you adhered to the recommended viscosity there would be very little difference to the engine.

No-one forces you to buy a specific brand. Shop around, there are loads of makes with the correct spec. But hey, vehicle manufacturers just slap any old oil spec in their recommendations, because all that matters is the viscosity, right? I mean, after all, oil is oil right?

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

In this case for the car that the OP has.....oil is oil.:D

Show me solid conclusive proof that using cheaper oil in a car will damage it or using high grade/expensive oil will improve a cars performance.;)

Loads of info on the net about using the wrong spec oil. Nothing to do with the cost of the oil though.

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Thanks.Thats what i was getting at before that ignoramus jumped in.
I know you have to stick to a certain viscosity (ie; 10w40 or whatever) but i don't think theres much of a difference between very expensive brand stuff & halford's engine oil.
Ive been using halfords oil for a year & my car runs fine. Ive also bought dear stuff in the past & i didn't notice any difference.

bbk i take your point as well.

Who's the ignoramus?

Eoin

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

Thanks.Thats what i was getting at before that ignoramus jumped in.

No more of that. You two can have your spat elsewhere, not here.

GTE

Was there a spat here?

T-maxx, that's interesting what you say about the re-badged Mobil 1 oil.
Do you know if its any specific Mobil 1 product that they re brand?

Esel

He said Mobil, not Mobil 1.

corktina

yeah I dont think it needs changing every year at that age...and I never changed a sump plug washer in my life! Suction pump thing all very well but Im not sure it would get ALL the oil out of the sump as efficently as undoing the sump plug.

Mr.David

Personally I believe it is a false economy to use cheap oil. Do it yourself, you are already saving on garage labour and so spend the extra tenner on the oil. Maybe you would get away with the cheap stuff but for the sake of a tenner is it worth the risk?

Interesting questions below about oil (sorry its so long) that I borrowed from another motoring forum I use. Its posted by Opie Oils and I for one couldnt recommend them enough for buying oils (no I am not affiliated!!:D)

We get asked many oil related questions every day and decided to put some of the most frequently asked ones to an Oil Expert called John Rowland. He has been the Chief R&D Chemist for Fuchs/Silkolene for many years and previously developed ahead of their time ester based oils for the RR Jet industry. What he doesn’t know about oil is not worth knowing in our opinion!

Even though some of these topics may have been covered before here, this post is well worth reading.


1) How is an oil manufactured; transformed from the black sludge that comes out of the ground, into the nectar-like substance we pour into our cars and bikes?


Crude oil, which is usually very thin, (contrary to popular belief!) is distilled into light and heavy fractions, with several intermediate ones. (The evil left-overs are used to fuel the 15 million cc/40RPM diesels in the giant oil tankers that bring the crude to the refinery.)

The lighter fractions, usually more than 90% of the original crude, are converted into petrol and diesel. Some of the heavier oils, (still dark and smelly!) go through several processes to clean them up and remove wax. Out of about a dozen oily products 4 clear, bright amber oils are commonly used to blend modern engine and gear oils. These are roughly equivalent to SAE 10, 20, and 30 engine rating and 140 gear rating. Oil refineries also produce all sorts of gases and chemical compounds which can be used to build up 'tailor made' lubricants: synthetics!


2) What are the most important substances added to the refined base oils? What do they do?


In the Dark Ages, engines used blends of refined mineral oils 'straight', with nothing added. The trouble was, even in the slow-revving engines of 80 years ago the oil didn't last very long, and the engines didn't either.

Black sludge and corrosion were the killers, and both were tackled in the 1950s with detergent and antioxidant chemicals. (When I was a lad, I used to visit a mate of my Dad's who rebuilt the very popular side-valve Ford engines. The thick crap inside these things was unbelievable! The valve tappets were moving in holes in solid blocks of carbon!) The detergents washed the carbon from fuel combustion off the bores and out of the ring grooves, and at the same time reduced bore and piston ring corrosion.

The antioxidants stopped the oil reacting with oxygen in the air, which cut acid sludge formation which in turn reduced corrosion and oilway blockages. Some antioxidants had the useful side-effect of reducing wear as well. This added up to longer oil and engine life, both improving about three times. (Straight oil had to be changed every 1000miles, and even lightly-stressed engines running on it were ready for a full overhaul at 15-20,000.) OK, I admit there were design and metallurgical improvements, but they needed that vital 'liquid component' to be fully effective.
Later came dispersant compounds which held the carbon as tiny particles in the oil which didn't settle out anywhere, and slipped through the oil filter as if it wasn't there.(Solid bits in well-used modern oil are about 1/1000mm across; the pores in an oil filter are at least 15 times bigger.)
The other big problem with oil used to be cold starting. It was usual to have SAE 20 Winter or 'W' grades, and SAE 30 or 40 Summer grades, and even the so-called Winter types would defeat the starter in serious cold weather. Unfortunately, oil is very thick when it's cold, and very thin when it's hot. To have an oil thick enough to look after a
hard working engine, you had to use a grade which was too thick when it was cold.

The answer was (and is) multigrade! What was needed was an oil that behaved like a 20 'W' grade in the cold, but only thinned down to a SAE 40 or 50 when really hot; yes, 20W/50! This can be done by mixing thin oil with thick polymers based on plastics and synthetic rubbers; these don't do much in the cold, but as the oil warms up they unwind and thicken it up to some extent. The oil still thins down, but not as quickly as a polymer-free or monograde type.

Multigrades started to catch on around 1960, but these pioneer types were easily ruined by mechanical shear effects, more so in gearboxes than engines. These days the better quality polymers resist shear even in combined engine/transmissions, so it is essential to use good quality shear-resistant types in a gearbox fed by the engine (such as the traditional mini!), which gives its oil a hard time in both engine and gearbox.

Incidentally, there are large amounts of these additives and polymers in there, it's not just 'a little bit of this, a little bit of that'! A good quality mineral 10W/40 can be 80% base 20% additive chemistry, and guess which is the expensive ingredient!


3) What are the differences, in layman's terms, between mineral, semi-synthetic and fully-synthetic engine oil? (In terms of structure and performance.)


Before we get into details, the first thing to realise that there is no chalk and cheese difference between mineral and synthetic based oils. After all, the chemical compounds which make mineral engine oils so much better are themselves synthetic.
Synthetic lubricant bases are stepwise improvements on mineral oil, with more desirable properties and fewer undesirable ones. The second important point is that there's no one thing called 'synthetic'! There are several different types of synthetic lubricant, and to say something like: 'the Supergrunt GTI TURBO must have a full synthetic' is meaningless unless the 'expert' explains what sort of synthetic he means.

Equally, to imply that dreadful things will happen if the 1970 RV8 is run on anything other than good’ ole mineral oil is ridiculous. It may not need a 2007 synthetic, but it isn't going to come to any harm if the owner uses a 2007 synthetic!

The most basic type of synthetic is really a special mineral oil. Known as 'hydrocracked' bases, these are made in oil refineries by putting certain types of mineral fraction through special processing, so they cost more than the usual mineral types but not much more. They are useful because they resist evaporation at high temperatures. Although
used for years for genuine technical reasons, they are now popular with marketing men because the magic sexy word 'synthetic' can legitimately be printed on the label without spending much on the oil inside the can!

Yes, all low-cost 'synthetics' contain anything from a few percent to 20 percent (i.e. 'semi-synthetic') of special mineral oil. Using fairly simple chemical compounds or gases from oil refineries or other sources, it is possible to 'synthesise' or build up tailor-made lubricant molecules which have very desirable characteristics, such as great resistance to cold, heat, evaporation losses or excessive thinning as they get hot. These are the true synthetics, and the two that are used in engine oils are PAOs (poly alpha olefins) and esters.

Neither is cheap! PAOs are related to mineral oils, and are the ideal carriers for all the chemical compounds used in mineral oils. Because they do not gel at very low temperatures, all genuine 0W-something oils have to be based on PAOs to pass the 0W test at a sub-arctic -35C.

Esters were originally made for jet engine lubricants, and to this day all jet oils are ester-based. Although similar in performance to PAOs, they have a valuable extra trick: they are good lubricants and help to protect metal surfaces. Esters help with transmission and valve train lubrication. 100% fully synthetic oils are actually quite rare, probably because they are very expensive to make, and even more expensive to buy.
Even so, an ester/PAO with a very shear stable multigrade polymer is the ultimate oil for high output engines that are worked hard, which means racing.


4) How does oil work? What gives it its lubricating properties? How does it 'cling on' to surfaces?


A plain bearing such as a main or big end, when spinning fast is 'floating' on a relatively thick film of oil. The metal surfaces literally do not touch. The high velocity drives a wedge of oil between the two surfaces, and the oil film supports the load, just like a water skier skimming over that very thin lubricant, water. But, when the engine slows down and stops the bearing shells drop through the film and touch the crankpins, just as the skier sinks in up to his neck when he lets go of the rope.

It is where there is metal to metal contact that lubrication, that is, something to reduce wear and seizure, is needed. On gear teeth, valve components, and piston rings at top or bottom dead centre, there is no high speed rotation to generate 'wedge' support, so the oil films are very thin, and some metal contact is inevitable. Some fluids, even if they look thick and oily, are completely hopeless! Very pure mineral oils, and some synthetics fall into this group. They depend entirely on chemical load-carrying compounds which react with metal at high pressures and temperatures to provide very thin protective films which prevent micro-welds where metal surfaces come into contact.

Detergent and antioxidant chemicals often double up as anti-wear agents. The odd ones out are esters. These are attracted to metal by electrostatic forces and cling on when surfaces are forced into contact.


5) What are (or can be) the main differences between oils of the same type, i.e. what's the difference between a 'good' and a 'bad' oil?


It all comes down to honesty really.....so beware! A good oil is what it claims to be on the can. 10W/40? Does it really pass the cold test at -25C? Quite a few I've tested do not. There is usually an API spec quoted, such as API SH or SL. These are car-based, and a good basic quality guide. If absent, leave it on the shelf, and avoid lawyer-speak:
'meets the requirements of....' or 'recommended (by whom?) for use in....'.

Then there is the 'synthetic' minefield! Provided the price hasn't been pushed up by shipping an average oil 5000miles from the West coast of the USA, you get what you pay for. The best performance oils are made in the more developed European countries, but low price buys the cheap 'modified mineral' synthetic and not much of it, with a poor multigrade polymer. As is so often the case, quality follows cost.


6) What are the likely consequences of using poor-quality oil?


Usually, these are fairly long term, except in racing. Think of the oil as a liquid component, and poor oil as a cheap pattern spare. In a road car long-term reliability and performance retention (i.e. acceleration figures below new spec., fuel and oil consumption above) are the casualties. Particularly in a high performance or racing car,
the effects can be more immediate and catastrophic.


7) Some oil companies have run advertising campaigns that imply their products have special, unique qualities. Can these adverts be taken seriously?


Yes and no! Generally adverts in magazines are honest, with marketing-speak terms such as ‘Magnatec’ and ‘Electrosyntec’ really being code words for esters, which are particularly beneficial in performance engine oils. No manufacturer has any unique ‘secret’, so it’s all down to providing the best possible blend for the job at the right price, and making it clear that you get what you pay for. I personally think that the importance of shear stability or ‘stay in grade’ is not stressed enough when quality is talked about.

What is dodgy though is claiming that a mineral based oil with a few percent of modified mineral (‘hydrocracked’) synthetic is the DB’s and suitable for racing, etc. when it clearly isn’t.

Also, there is endless semantic manoeuvring and lawyer-speak around The Magic Word ’synthetic’.

For instance, a ‘synthetic’ oil is invariably semi-synthetic (’Ah! We didn’t say it was all synthetic did we?), and, if low priced, invariably the modified mineral type synthetic. It is a sad fact that you get what you pay for, but even so, stick to the reputable UK/European brands, and remember that shipping an oil half way around the world doesn’t automatically make it better than one made in your home town.

As for TV advertising…well, does anybody believe it? Due to its huge cost, a TV advertising campaign can significantly raise the cost of specialist items such as oil. Everybody assumes it’s just a few pence per gallon, but it can be pounds per gallon.)

Please can you explain the grading system? What is meant by the weight of an oil? What does 10W/40 mean for example?

Weight means viscosity, or resistance to flow. Water and paraffin flow very easily, so they are low or light viscosity. Golden syrup or 140 gear oil do not come out of the can so easily, so they are high or heavy viscosity.

Especially with oils, temperature is very, very important. An oil which looks ‘heavy’ at 20C will be very ‘light’ at 100C. People sometimes say, ‘I drained the oil when the engine was hot and it ran out like water…’ so I say, ‘Good! It’s supposed to be like that!’

The American Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) ratings cover cold starts and ‘up and running’ viscosities. There are two sets of standards, the ‘Winter’ (W) ratings, and the 100C standard ratings. (‘W’ does not, repeat not, mean ‘weight’!)

So a 10W/40 oil has to pass a 10W cold viscosity test at -25C, and a SAE 40 test at 100C. In an oil lab there will be a refrigerated viscosity measuring device for the ‘W’ tests and another at 100C for the standard SAE tests. There are 6 ‘W’ ratings from the difficult 0W at -35C to the dead easy 25W at -10C, occasionally used in India for example!

The whole point of these Winter ratings is to assist cold starts, to get the oil circulating quickly, and to avoid power and fuel wasting drag as the engine warms up. Once it is warmed up, the 100C ratings count. There are 5 of these, 20, 30, 40, 50, and 60 although why anybody bothers with 60 in the 21st Century is a mystery to me!

Sorry folks, but I’ve got to get technical. Viscosity is measured in standard units called ‘Centistokes’, names after a Victorian engineer, Sir George Stokes, who used to time ball bearings as they sank through oil. SAE 30 for example is from 9.3 to 12.5 Centistokes, and SAE 40 follows on at 12.5 to 16.3, although most SAE 40 oils are in the middle at about 14.

Now this is something most don’t realise: engines do not know what grade of oil they’re running on. They’re not clever enough! So an engine filled with 10W/40 will be running on a viscosity of 14 at 100C, but with a sump temperature of 90C its seeing a viscosity of 18, so as far as the engine is concerned it’s running on SAE 50. Likewise, at 110C, it’s down to 11 Centistokes so it ‘thinks’ it’s on a SAE 30! (Which is preferable.)

The lesson is, do not use power and fuel-wasting thick oils in cool climates. A decent 10W/40 or even thinner is perfectly OK unless you’re running a classic with wide clearances and a slow oil pump.

Radical race cars use 1300 Suzuki Hyabusas and work them very hard. (Didn’t one take the old Nurburgring absolute record at one point?). They use our high-ester 15W/50, but that’s OK because they see oil temps around 130C! (No problem for the oil or the engine, but they do fit special oil seals.) At 130C the true viscosity is 10cSt, so the engine thinks its on a thin SAE 30, which keeps it happy.


8) What is the best type of oil to use in a road car for general use? Is fully synthetic a waste of money?


Personally I’d go for a shear-stable part ester synthetic, SAE 10W/40 or 5W/40. The ‘shear-stable’ bit (ie, a decent quality multigrade polymer) is actually more important than the ‘synthetic’ part!

If strapped, I’d go for a shear-stable mineral based oil rather than a ‘synthetic’ of dubious stability that’s probably based on modified mineral oil anyway. Unless you’re covering a huge annual mileage, genuine 100% synthetics are probably an extravagance. High mileage long-distance fans can use a light full synthetic and save on fuel and oil changes, and cut overhaul costs if things get to that stage, but more later…..


9) What are the main differences between 2 and 4-stroke oil? Why does 2-stroke oil have to be mixed with fuel?


2-stroke oil has a very short working life, straight in and out, and it gets burnt. The 2-stroke engine doesn’t have a sump full of oil and the bearings are all rollers, so there’s hardly any oil drag, hence no need for multigrades. Long term stability is obviously not a problem!

But, 2-stroke must burn off without leaving any plug-fouling or detonation-initiating deposits. The detergent and anti-wear additives used in 4-stroke oil leave hard white ash behind when they burn, just what you do not need in a 2-stroke. So 2-stroke oils use low-ash detergents and dispersants, and the better types use ester synthetics to act as anti-wear compounds.

With current environmental concerns, smoke is a sensitive issue, so most ‘road’ 2-stroke oils are now low smoke, which requires yet another type of synthetic base designed to burn off invisibly. For some rather basic but very high-revving air-cooled racing 2-strokes there’s still some sense in using blends with that marvellous anti-seize liquid, castor oil!

Due to crankcase induction and compression, the classical 2-stroke obviously cannot have an oil-filled sump, so the only way to keep an oil film on anything was to add oil to the fuel, or inject oil into the crankcase space where it could mix with the fuel vapour. There are now some engines where the fuel and oil are injected separately, but the oil is still burnt.


10) How important is it to change oil regularly? What are the implications of failing to do so?


It is only really important to change oil regularly if the engine covers a low annual mileage made up of slow, short runs. This is being cruel to the oil and the engine! The oil, regardless of its quality, gets full of fuel and water vapour, and never gets the chance to evaporate it all off with a long fast run. The consequences are corrosion, ring and bore wear. It is essential to do a change at least once a year, even if the recommended mileage hasn’t been covered. On the other hand, if you eat up the miles on long blasts the engine and its oil will love it, so with a top-quality oil it is OK to cheat a little on oil drain periods.


11) Do some types of oil (i.e. fully-synthetic) ‘wear out’ quicker than others? How important are timely oil changes? Can you rely on the frequency suggested by your User Manual?


The type of oil that is likely to give trouble after low mileage is a light viscosity type with poor shear stability, either mineral or modified mineral based. (Such as one of the USA ‘fuel economy’ oils for lazy car engines that pushed the Japanese OEMs to bring in their own oil spec.) The important thing is the shear stability; the much hyped ‘synthetic or mineral’ nonsense is a red herring.

The oils that will last the longest are the relatively rare 100% genuine synthetic shear stable types, which will easily stand twice the recommended drain period in a high-mileage high performance engine. (So in the long run they aren’t really so expensive.) Just the thing for those touring fiends who pack up and set of for the Transylvanian Alps as soon as the clocks go forward!

Of course, User Manual drain recommendations are based on a back-covering ‘worst case’ scenario of low annual mileage on poor quality oil, so they can be regarded as a very safe minimum mileage.

In the past, there used to be trouble with heavy carbon deposits and sludge around the engine with early low-detergent oils, but these days almost any oil with a good API specification will keep everything clean for 10 to 15,000 miles, so that’s the least of your worries.


12) Does oil have to be warm to do its job properly? Is it important to warm up your engine before using at speed?


Yes, it does have to be at least warm, and preferably hot. Most people except the sort with white finger syndrome find metal at 60C too hot to touch, yet 60C is too cold for oil in an engine that’s going flat-out. The best approach is to use a good 5W/40 or even a 10W/40, and take it easy for the first couple of miles, especially in very cold weather.
For racing, a really good warm-up is essential, except perhaps with special 0W/20 low-drag race oils. The trouble is, oil pumps are very good at pushing oil out at 60PSI, but unfortunately there is only 14PSI (atmospheric pressure) pushing it in! (Even less in Katmandhu.) So it’s easy for an oil pump to pull voids or pockets of vacuum in the oil if it doesn’t flow fast enough into to uptake. This ‘cavitation’ obviously reduces the amount of oil the pump can deliver.

Also, in high-speed bearings the oil can be too thick to keep up with the high rubbing speeds reached in modern engines so the ‘wedge’ or hydrodynamic’ effect breaks down. I know it goes against common sense (whatever that is) but the faster a bearing is turning the thinner the oil should be. (A 4cm. diameter main bearing is rubbing its shells at 56 MPH at 12,000RPM! To avoid cavitation the oil need to be less 10cSt or less, which is SAE 30 if the oil happens to be at 100C, or SAE 40 if its at 110C.))
What is the difference between road and racing oils?
The days of incense-like ‘R’ oils for racing only are past, except for classics. At least as far as 4-strokes are concerned, the best synthetic types are ideal for both race and road use.

With ultra-precise components, high-pressure pumps and high engine RPM there has been a move to special synthetic low cavitation/low drag oils to release more power with no reliability loss. These can be (and are!) used in road cars, but 0W/20 is not mentioned in the user handbooks, so there is always some warranty risk. Honda is perhaps the only exception!


13) How does a high-performance oil allow the motor to produce more power?


An engine wastes fuel energy in several ways, and most of them are due to the laws of thermodynamics, which is another way of saying you can’t do much about it. But up to 6% of engine output is lost due to oil drag, made up of pumping losses and viscous drag between moving components. The transmission is included in this.

Provided wear and friction are kept down, there are real gains to be made by using a ‘tough’ but low viscosity oil. Surprisingly, frictional losses are low, down at 3% or less even with conventional oils, so there are few gains to be made here.

I have actually seen this extra power output on the dyno! A very experienced operator in Peterborough who does a lot of test work for Lord Emap used his own year-old Honda Blackbird, with the first run on his favourite 15W/50 high-ester synthetic. 128BHP.

Then we changed to a 5W40 high ester synthetic. (So it wasn’t an unfair comparison with B & Q 15W/50!) This time we saw 131.6BHP with a corresponding torque increase.

Finally we went to a new (at that time) 0W/20 special synthetic and 134.4BHP appeared! Even the boss was impressed! Later trials in different race and road engines showed this level of improvement was no fluke, so it really does work; and, with the right chemistry to look after the engine and transmission internals, there’s no down side of increased wear.


14) Why do some engines consume oil? Is this a problem?


Large air-cooled engines or classics with wide piston clearances, or very highly stressed liquid-cooled engines which flex under load, or which use ultra-light pistons with the minimum number of rings are likely to be oil users. There is little that can be done about it. Unfortunately, burnt oil tends to leave hard deposits in the combustion chambers which can initiate pre-ignition, so more frequent top overhauls are usually necessary.
Occasionally, touring engines will use oil for no apparent reason. This is often due to the oil level rising in the crankcase due to air retention, leading to oil loss through the breather. The answer is to move to a lighter grade of oil to improve air release.


15) If you need to top up your engine oil, how important is it to use exactly the same brand and type?


Not very important at all. Unfortunately, due to ‘arse covering’ reasons we cannot print this advice on the can! Although officially all manufacturers advise against mixing different makes and grades, in fact there is very little chance of any harm being done, even if one is a mineral 20W/50 and the other is a 5W/30 synthetic. Obviously, avoid this if you can, but do not panic if there’s no other alternative. Just don’t mix 2 stroke and 4-stroke oil!


16) There are all sorts of additives available which are supposed to improve ordinary oil and reduce friction, improve power output etc. Are they worth a try?


Oil is already a very advanced and deeply researched fluid which does not need any ‘enhancement’. There is no secret formula out in the backwoods that the mainstream lubricant chemists do not know about; but there are plenty of half-baked ideas and gullible people out there!

These wonder additives are usually 1930s chlorinated paraffins, long obsolete gear oil additives which should have disappeared in the 1950s, but they keep turning up as ‘Xxtrasuperlube ZX3’ with a mark-up of several thousand percent. They actually corrode engine and transmission internals, so they do far more harm than good.

Others depend upon the total myth that PTFE powder coats engine internals and reduces friction. It doesn’t do anything or the sort. It just blocks the oil filter. The AA tested one of these overpriced PTFE concoctions (‘Quick 60’ or something) very thoroughly back in the 80s. They stated: ‘This is an expensive way of coating your oil filter’.

So there we have it, would just like to thank once again John Rowland (R&D Chemist) for taking the time to provide these answers to questions that we are frequently asked.

The Opie Oils Team.

Max_Damage

This should clear up a few issues:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEzdp7MSF2Y

witless_steve

OP I've had a few old cars with huge milage on them that I used to keep on cheap oil. The car you have may not be worth much but when its your main form of transport it is worth more to you than the amount you can sell it for.
I found that when I used good quality oil and changed the oil every 6 months that I had less engine trouble, better fuel economy and an altogether happier car. For the want of a few quid could you afford to be carless while it had repairs or you had to hunt for a replacement?

bryaner

Well I had an 96 BMW 325 TDS with 195'000 miles on it. The clutch fork
locater broke hence the fork kept slight pressure on the pressure plate constantly and proceeded to wear the thrust main on the crankshaft. We decided to pull the engine out to remove the shaft weld the thrust and grind
it back to tolerance. While we had it out decided to have a look at the cylinders and hone them and fit a set of rings. I bore blocks for a living and am allowed to bore them to +/- 1/2 a thousandth of an inch. There was only 1/2 a thou of wear on the cylinders after 195'000 miles. I think this is testament to regular servicing with high quality fully-synthetic oil (I used vavoline). Just spotted the car the other day god knows how much mileage is on it now..

bryaner

My lament about the shaft was to show that it was a freak thing for removing the engine btw.

E34

Even if the car's not worth much, for less than 30 euro why not change it?

I use GSF car parts, they sell 5L of Fuchs 10W-40 semi-synth for only 17+vat. Add a good quality filter for about a fiver and you've sorted.

JJJJNR

didn't change the oil in my corolla for fours years and it sailed through the NCT.. it was a 94

GTE

Would good or bad oil even matter in an NCT?

witless_steve

I wouldn't advise that buddy, you might shorten the life of your engine doing that and give yourself major aches in the future.
Though I am seriously impressed that you managed to pull it off, the oil must have been like tar when removed though.

E34

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1281659
:eek:

martyc5674

JJJJNR wrote: »

didn't change the oil in my corolla for fours years and it sailed through the NCT.. it was a 94

Yeah ive a starlet with 180K Miles on it...only change the oil every 40 or so thousand miles (top up in between).
Never missed a beat and never failed a test in the ten years ive had it...its never been to a mechanic either i just service engine every 40K miles...original brake pads and shoes,even the fan belt and power steerring belt are original on it!!!
Also i have never topped up the coolant in it and its all fine.
I changed the timing belt @ 92K Miles.

Obviously i dont condone treating your car like this but im just highlighting that cars(particularly japs) will get by with zero maintenance!!


Marty.

Merch

JJJJNR wrote: »

didn't change the oil in my corolla for fours years and it sailed through the NCT.. it was a 94

Thats some good info on oil Mr David and max dmage with the guy going through the oils, knew the oil ratings was to with viscsoty/centistokes at certain temps but was never 100% certain. I didnt read it in full but I will have a look at that again, cheers.

Like previous posters have said, oil picks up contaminants and water which decreases its usefulness, it lubricates and helps cool the engine, if you only change the oil and filter and air filter they are the best and cheapest things you can do for your car to prolong its life, never understand how garages can get away with robbing people hundreds of euro to put in oil,filter and air filter??

Oil can affect your emissions but in my opinion (and this probably seems obvious) good oil aint gonna do you no good if you leave it in there forever, better to go with the recommended spec oil and change it regular, 10000 or annually, if u do less miles, u still need to change it, in fact probably even more so, unless you hardly drive ur vehicle at all and dont do short journeys only.

As for the corrolla that passes or the guy that drives his merc for eons without changing and it still passes, well more power to you, but in the long run it cant be good and rather you than me I'd say you never hear about the 10 other corrollas that are belching smoke as they aint on the roads anymore.

fonecrusher1

JJJJNR wrote: »

didn't change the oil in my corolla for fours years and it sailed through the NCT.. it was a 94

As ive said on another thread, a few years ago i bought a civic that hadn't been serviced in almost 5 years & my buddy is still driving around in it.:D
Obviously i serviced it properly before i sold it on but i honestly wouldn't have noticed had i not been told about the neglect.

I change my oil every 6 months approximately , but i have to because its a diesel. Ive used Halfords brand on the last few occasions. Seems like decent enough engine oil so far.

Merch

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

As ive said on another thread, a few years ago i bought a civic that hadn't been serviced in almost 5 years & my buddy is still driving around in it.:D
Obviously i serviced it properly before i sold it on but i honestly wouldn't have noticed had i not been told about the neglect.

I change my oil every 6 months approximately , but i have to because its a diesel. Ive used Halfords brand on the last few occasions. Seems like decent enough engine oil so far.

I used to always buy the motorcraft stuff myself but the Halfords oil has the same spec as FORDs, I used it last time around, I'm thinking of lowering the service interval to less than 10000, thats as much as I used to do annually, as driving less that will happen naturally as I planned to do it every year but was considering dropping the interval to 6-7000 miles then change oil.

I'd like to get my hands on one of those suction kits for getting the oil out, I'm thinking I might be able to use it to get a product into the sump (sludge remover) to clean out the sump, rather than removing it. I'd prefer not to drain it past the crankshaft where it might get on other parts/crank seals and damage them?

If a car runs so great after not changing the oil, imagine how good it will run if you do.
I still think they are the exceptions though.

Maybe the civic was brning the oil and when it was replenished it was like it was full of new oil lol
continious topping up