Wasted Heritage Buildings - Your nominations

BFDCH.

Are there not grants available to maintain\develop those in private hands?

I remember hearing about some when I studied archaeology years ago, it could be that the grants are no longer available or that I wasn't paying attention properly given how boring that segment of the course was.

pedroeibar1

BFDCH. wrote: »

Are there not grants available to maintain\develop those in private hands?

I remember hearing about some when I studied archaeology years ago, it could be that the grants are no longer available or that I wasn't paying attention properly given how boring that segment of the course was.

There are some grants available, but the list is not extensive and relative to the hassle the amounts are not always worthwhile. The paperwork involved is onerous, inspections before, during and after the work, etc. , so many owners just do not bother. There are tax breaks if you open your home to the public for more than 60 days each year, but there are serious security and insurance issues involved. The new property tax might change that. There is now just one insurer in Ireland covering listed properties and they are insisting on a minimum of €4000 per sq.m rebuild, whereas a regular house is about 1000.
The most wasted heritage building in Ireland is the former town home of the Dukes of Leinster; sadly for too long it has been misused and abused by a succession of wasters.

expectationlost

eh2010 wrote: »

Good map of the landed estates of ireland

http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie:8080/LandedEstates/jsp/map.jsp

what happened to the east?

eh2010

expectationlost wrote: »

what happened to the east?

A far as I know the Project to map the big houses of Ireland is still a work in progress. They just haven't done the east yet.

jonniebgood1

I came across this house in the property pages. Hopefully it will be restored as it is currently wasted. It is for sale for €130,000 at auction!


It is bagenalstown house- don't think its mentioned yet on this thread (?)

A 2 storey Georgian house with a front of 2 curved bows joined by a conservatory. The home of Mr. John Hedges Becher (of the family of Becher / IFR, but not actually included in the pedigree).

Source: Mark Bence-Jones and his book "A Guide to Irish Country Houses". http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlcar2/Bagenalstown_House.htm

dubhthach

It's amazing the amount of magnificent period houses lieing bout the country in ruins, most of the "new money" from the Celtic Tiger years were more interested in building their own McMansions instead of buying/doing up such property.

pedroeibar1

dubhthach wrote: »

It's amazing the amount of magnificent period houses lieing bout the country in ruins, most of the "new money" from the Celtic Tiger years were more interested in building their own McMansions instead of buying/doing up such property.

That covers two topics (i) the physical state of many of the ruins following decades of decay and poor maintenance and (ii) the desires and lack of taste/discernment of the nouveaux riches of Celtic Tiger Ireland.

It is not amazing when you look at the economics of it. Restoration of any ‘heritage’ object – a house, a car or a clock - usually is not an economic proposition, it’s a labour of love to preserve history. It is a very rewarding activity, but not for the fainthearted or those who do not have bottomless pockets.

People get emotive about old houses and do not realize that they have a lifespan. Many of the listed houses in ruins have passed their lifespan and the cost of remedial work is so huge that like a family pet it often is kinder to put them down. Even if it is feasible to carry out repairs it takes years even for a midsize house. Take just the windows as an example. If they have not been properly maintained each has to be removed, stripped, the original timber retained, rotten bits of the glazing bars cut out and replaced; these must be manufactured, copying the correct profiles, then you have to obtain the correct type of glass, etc. Add to that a heritage officer standing over the builder saying ‘You can’t do that!’ Now multiply that by everything in the house. And don’t forget that when the house was first built (if it is a ‘Big House’) it was usual to have a staff ratio of four for each family member. Consider what Dermot Desmond went through over the insertion of a dumb-waiter in his house on Merrion Square. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/14/world/new-work-in-old-dublin-house-spurs-a-preservation-battle.html (He won, but only after several years & thousands in fees.)

The owners of McMansions wanted a quick solution, a bathroom for every bedroom, a cinema room, snooker room, swimming pool, three+ car garages, etc. Historic houses do not lend themselves to that type of ‘renovation’ because indoor toilets were rare until the 1800’s and bathrooms were an even later facility, at least 1860 and even then most medium –sized ‘Big Houses’ did not have any.
Anyway, our ‘Tigers’ had neither the patience, knowledge, taste nor class to take on a restoration job. Look at what is being built in the UK for example – http://www.qftarchitects.com/projects/housesinengland.php

eh2010

Did anyone see the castle on the news today? Charleville castle Tullamore?




or the one on Nationwide , Enniscorthy castle?




Both very nice castles.

eh2010

InTheTrees wrote: »

They've done a fine restoration. Is that smooth finish on the walls faithful to the time it was built? I like it. I wonder what it looks like inside?

I did some searches online and I found an ad from 2008 that described it as a ruin. (its number nine):

http://www.intlistings.com/articles/2008/want-to-live-in-a-castle-10-great-options-for-250k-or-less/

I doubt that plastering on the outside is true to the original, but that's just my opinion.

Judgement Day

Charleville Castle and Enniscorthy Castle are not wasted Heritage buildings though as they are in use and open to the public.

The other ones on Nationwide that could be described as wasted were Castleboro and Coolbawn but then they are in private hands. Wilton Castle is under redevelopment as apartments but with the collapse in property prices I think it's on hold.

dubhthach

eh2010 wrote: »

I doubt that plastering on the outside is true to the original, but that's just my opinion.

Plastering was alot more common then we think. One only has to look at the ruins of the O'Moores castle at Ballyadams in County Laois.







That's a native Irish built castle as well.

pedroeibar1

<<Plastering was alot more common then we think. One only has to look at the ruins of the O'Moores castle at Ballyadams in County Laois.<<




That actually does look like plaster, which is incorrect. Possibly a late-Victorian addition ; look also at the modern brickwork on the murdering hole lintel. The correct term for the wall finish on a castle of that vintage is 'harling' (quite a different process to plaster/ stucco / pargetting) and was common in Ireland & Scotland. Even the lowly cottages in Ireland had a lime-mortar rendering, and not the stone faced finish about which so many of our CoCo planners of today are (incorrectly) so insistent.


Ballyadams has an interesting history - see here http://homepage.eircom.net/~walkingways/lochist.html

jonniebgood1

Harl is just a type of Lime rendering. A form of dashing to use modern terms. The purpose of using lime based renders is to allow a building to breath, to dry out when the fabric of the building is penetrated. This is usually replicated in conservation projects of old buildings.

InTheTrees

eh2010 wrote: »

or the one on Nationwide , Enniscorthy castle?




Both very nice castles.

Enniscorthy is fine looking castle isnt it? Very regular and well proportioned. It could be a model or a film set its so perfect.

Except for those chimneys poking out of the middle. What period would they have been from? Apparently it was used as a private residence until the 50's.

Which brings up a question; How did the larger castles that might have had multiple fireplaces deal with venting the smoke before the use of tall chimneys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EnniscorthyCastle.jpg

dubhthach

Well going on this engraving there was at least one tall chimmey present in 1792



Here's another one from same period. Obviously the Castle was extended during the 19th century as it originally only had four corner towers.



There was I believe a similiar castle at Wexford as well which was stormed by the Cromwellian's in 1649. (on the site of the Barracks)

The same image today (stockphoto)

pedroeibar1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Harl is just a type of Lime rendering. A form of dashing to use modern terms.

Not really 'just a type' or 'dashing' - harling involves a totally different process and constituents to an ordinary lime render, which was my point. Nice piece on finished harl here http://www.wanderingeducators.com/global-citizenship/environmental-education/craigievar-castle-s-new-face-unveiled.html

eh2010

Judgement Day wrote: »

Charleville Castle and Enniscorthy Castle are not wasted Heritage buildings though as they are in use and open to the public.

The other ones on Nationwide that could be described as wasted were Castleboro and Coolbawn but then they are in private hands. Wilton Castle is under redevelopment as apartments but with the collapse in property prices I think it's on hold.

Ok fair enough , I see your point.

eh2010

dubhthach wrote: »

Plastering was alot more common then we think. One only has to look at the ruins of the O'Moores castle at Ballyadams in County Laois.







That's a native Irish built castle as well.

Oh ok Didn't Know that.Come to think of it I've noticed that plastering on other castles before, forgot about that.

Wallop 64

InTheTrees wrote: »

Enniscorthy is fine looking castle isnt it? Very regular and well proportioned. It could be a model or a film set its so perfect.

Except for those chimneys poking out of the middle. What period would they have been from? Apparently it was used as a private residence until the 50's.

Which brings up a question; How did the larger castles that might have had multiple fireplaces deal with venting the smoke before the use of tall chimneys?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EnniscorthyCastle.jpg

The chimneys were added in the mid 16th Century when the castle was renovated by the wallop family who used it as a private residence

eh2010

Anyone know this tower?. Callanan's tower . It used to be in the beer garden of a pub in Cork City. The pub was demolished and its now in the middle of an apartment complex and cut off from the public. And they ruined it with that yellow plaster.

telekon

eh2010 wrote: »

Anyone know this tower?. Callanan's tower . It used to be in the beer garden of a pub in Cork City. The pub was demolished and its now in the middle of an apartment complex and cut off from the public. And they ruined it with that yellow plaster.

That was an excellent beer garden in the Tower pub.

Been around those apartments, no great appeal to them at all, in a location of the city where apartments are completely out of place in an area of predominantly small laneways and sidestreets.

(FYI Callanan's Tower is a folly from the 1850s, never occupied)

jonniebgood1

A few pictures of houses in this link- some may have already featured in this thread.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/property/2012/1004/1224324826317.html

eh2010

Just a Question I have . Won't the people who are living in the Big Houses and Estates , -the descendants of the Anglo Irish Land Lords and Others- have to pay the new Property tax?

Judgement Day

What that has to do with this thread I don't know but why would 'Big' House' be excluded from the property tax?

2.8trooper

This thread both saddens and disheartens me,having been involved quite heavily in the conservation sector for a number of years I can see both sides of the argument about saving or neglecting built heritage.I got involved as my trade as a stonemason afforded me the honour of being entrusted with working on some of irelands most important and quiet honestly inspiring projects.
I have worked closely with leading architects and the opw and the heritage council,an taisce,numourous local authority and private entities and they rarely work harmoniously it seems they actually try to pull against each other to be seen to be the one who cares the most.


I worked my way up the ladder to be project manager and got to see what others never will for which I am eternally grateful,we have found an old pistol in a drain under st Patrick's cathedral,the "graffiti" which is preserved now on the roof timbers in Christchurch cathedral itself over 200 yrs old,I have been all over Leinster house,aras an uchtarann,Castletown house,bantry house I could go on and on.
I always despaired at how funding was misspent poorly appropriated and outrageously allocated,under the current system Ireland is fighting a losing battle to keep what it can.
To keep the thread on topic I visited a house to do an appraisel for the opw at emo court,I was thrown the keys and told to find my own way round,amazing place and will degrade further if not attended to.
Locally to me laragh castle which has now sadly burned down but was inhabited upto 5 years ago is now derelict it was inhabited by isult gonne and harboured a nazi during world war 2, this will never be saved.it was originally a barracks for the British army.I will do some more digging for places locally that fit this topic and look forward to seeing more it never ceases to amaze me irelands huge varied built heritage.

Judgement Day

According to the MyHome.ie website Laragh Castle has been sold - the asking price was €460,000 and the new owner will need deep pockets.

2.8trooper

Terribly sad story the old buy who lived there o Kelly a very intelligent man but who lived in total squalor,went to the shops but left the stove on and it burned down,we put a mobile home in for him that was donated by a local family,we had a look around and some of the old outhouses still had some sculpture works from the Stuart's who lived there.The house was purchased by a developer from memory and may never be rebuilt but demolished and redeveloped.

eh2010

Judgement Day wrote: »

What that has to do with this thread I don't know but why would 'Big' House' be excluded from the property tax?

Just out of curiousity. Didnt know where else to ask, there are some experts on big houses here thought they might know that information. I think its a good thing that they would be paying property tax and is pertinent to the story of the big house in Irish culture . The builders and residents of those properties stole the land from and exploited the native Irish in the first place. It could be seen as a historical redress of that greviance by them paying taxes back to the Irish state i.e the people of Ireland. Thats what it has to do with this thread.

Judgement Day

eh2010 wrote: »

Just out of curiousity. Didnt know where else to ask, there are some experts on big houses here thought they might know that information. I think its a good thing that they would be paying property tax and is pertinent to the story of the big house in Irish culture . The builders and residents of those properties stole the land from and exploited the native Irish in the first place. It could be seen as a historical redress of that greviance by them paying taxes back to the Irish state i.e the people of Ireland. Thats what it has to do with this thread.

And just how do you come by this knowledge? Most of the former landlords are long gone and the current owners of big houses will probably have bought them. You're just perpetuating old myths here. Even going back hundreds of years the land will have been purchased. The confiscations you refer to were back in the 17th century and it wasn't from peasants but Irish noble families.

eh2010

Ok. I suppose my info was inaccurate and a sweeping statement not taking into account the whole story. I just wanted an answer to my question. Its just that taxes on those properties by the Irish state seemed to me to redress that historic greviance. Anyway there's a new series on tv3 about the big houses of Ireland. 9pm sunday . Got some of my info from there. Not an academic source I know.