Gerry Adams on the life of Jesus

Stephentlig

PDN wrote: »

Augustine did indeed exempt Jews from forcible conversion. But no such courtesy was extended to pagans, or indeed to heretics (he forged his views in opposition to the Donatists).

It is pretty well standard in Church History to recognise that Augustine, by his misuse of the idea of compelling people to come in, laid the theological foundation for subsequent persecution.

For example:

ok PDN, give me chapter book and verse of the traditional writings of St.Augustine where he advocates forced conversion.

JimiTime

prinz wrote: »

Your example was the Nazis.. you draw the conclusion.

I'm just confirming that you meant what you said, i.e. You wouldn't wait for God to do anything, and take it upon yourself, which is fine if we have established that to kill our enemies is in line with Christs teachings.

Did Jesus turn the other cheek when he saw money changers in the temple?

I see nothing in that account to suggest it was a fight. Rather, Jesus turned over their tables, and made a 'whip' of sorts to drive the animals etc out of the temple, heavily reprimanding those guilty. He certainly stood up to them, and I don't argue with standing up to tyranny. Do you think this account provides the necessary information to reconcile Christs teachings with war though, and the killing of enemies?

To be clear again, I'm not sure myself, I just wish to extract the justification that people like yourself would use.

hivizman

Stephentlig wrote: »

ok PDN, give me chapter book and verse of the traditional writings of St.Augustine where he advocates forced conversion.

Most of the references can be found in Chapter 2 of Perez Zagorin's How the Idea of Religious Toleration Came to the West (Princeton University Press: 2005), most of which can be read on Google Books. Zagorin specifically references Augustine's Letter to Vincent (c. 408), which advocates causing fear in heretics to persuade them to revert to orthodoxy, and Augustine's Letter to Boniface (c. 417), where Augustine distinguishes between "unjust persecution", which the "wicked" inflict on the Church, and "just persecution", which the Church inflicts on the "wicked". As Zagorin summarises Augustine's later position, "The Church persecutes from love, the Donatists from hatred; the Church in order to correct error, the Donatists to hurl men into error."

However, according to Zagorin, "Although after his change of mind Augustine consistently approved the policy of subjecting heretics to coercion, he never desired that they should be killed." Hence Augustine disapproved of the policy of various emperors who either ordered the killing of heretics or put them outside the law.

Here's a link to the letter to Vincent, and here's one to the letter to Boniface.

Stephentlig

hivizman wrote: »

Most of the references can be found in Chapter 2 of Perez Zagorin's How the Idea of Religious Toleration Came to the West (Princeton University Press: 2005), most of which can be read on Google Books. Zagorin specifically references Augustine's Letter to Vincent (c. 408), which advocates causing fear in heretics to persuade them to revert to orthodoxy, and Augustine's Letter to Boniface (c. 417), where Augustine distinguishes between "unjust persecution", which the "wicked" inflict on the Church, and "just persecution", which the Church inflicts on the "wicked". As Zagorin summarises Augustine's later position, "The Church persecutes from love, the Donatists from hatred; the Church in order to correct error, the Donatists to hurl men into error."

However, according to Zagorin, "Although after his change of mind Augustine consistently approved the policy of subjecting heretics to coercion, he never desired that they should be killed." Hence Augustine disapproved of the policy of various emperors who either ordered the killing of heretics or put them outside the law.

I'm not very educated in this area so will have to get the opinion of John Salza, Catholic apologist. many people take the writings of the fathers and impose their own belief upon what is said and violently bend scripture and tradition to make it mean what they want it to mean, I've seen many Catholic lay-people at this behaviour also, particularly when it comes to head covering in the church for women.

thanks Hvizman, will get back to this thread soon.

Pax Christi
Stephen