Clocked cars - How do you know??

pops

Thinking of buying a second-hand car and have heard so many horror stories of dealers and private sellers routinely clocking cars that I'm reluctant to get anything here. Is it possible to find out for sure if the car I'm thinking of buying has been clocked or is genuine? Very few cars seem to have FSH, so how else would I know?

Thanks.

mcshape

A sure sign on a BMW is a dealer having to order you a "new key" as the previous one was damaged, i believe BMW 's hold BMW Service history and mileage on the key

colm_mcm

Old NCT reports are a good way. it's not 100% watertight, but if the seller has them then it's a start.
Also checking if timing belts etc were changed is a good way.
The condition of the steering wheel, pedals, seats etc can give clues
There are plenty of cars out there, if you're spending decent money then don't bother with one you have suspicions of
It's also possible that the seller doesn't know if it's clocked so don't presume because they're honest looking and genuine that the car is ok.

langdang

If it's a particularly lazy effort, you may see TB 90k tippexed on the timing belt cover, with 60k on the clock inside... I've seen efforts that were this bad! I would be particularly wary of guys who sell a lot of cars on the side but are not legit dealers. That said, there are registered dealers offering the same dodgey stuff...
Certain cars are more likely to be clocked, I mean who would really bother clocking a daewoo matiz? But an Audi or a Beemer...

Heroditas

Get a diagnostic done on the car using a laptop.
Those can reveal some interesting stats.
I got my mechanic to run the rule over my car when I took it for a "test drive" up to his place. He ran the diagnostic and it revealed that the dashboard had been taken off the car and the dials had been taken out.

That instantly screamed that it had been clocked.
However, I rang up the dealer where all the servicing had been carried out and when I mentioned this, they revealed that the car had been recalled to replace a faulty switch in the dashboard. They had then forgotten to reset the computer when the work was finished.

It put my mind at rest but it shows that maybe a diagnostic will pick up semi-sloppy clocking.

Anan1

pops wrote: »

Very few cars seem to have FSH, so how else would I know?

Assume any car without a fully documented & verifiable SH has been clocked.

cadaliac

Service history is key alright. Epically the higher up the price range you are.
Why would a 7 series BMW driver not service his car....no money....?? Maybe too lazy but this is rare.
On the other end of the scale, as a poster mentioned, some cars will never be clocked because they are not worth clocking. Take for instance a light city car, petrol with 50,000 miles on the clock. Its 4 years old. The amount a dealer (or seller) will save by knocking 10,000 or even 20,000 miles off the clock on the price will be minimal. Also the car will be shook and you will feel that the car will have traveled that distance, well, more so than a rep mobile like a mondeo or a passat type car.
Now take the rep mobile. This is where you are in bandit country. Especially diesel ones.
A lot of companies give the cars to staff that do big miles. The car is well maintained and serviced regularly. So, instead of 120,000 miles, let’s see how it feels with ~83,567 miles.
The selling price will be significant enough for the seller to take the chance.
That said, there are a lot of different ways to tell, but they are all pretty much down to ware and tear and the service history.
What cars were you looking at?

spank_inferno

Anan1 wrote: »

Assume any car without a fully documented & verifiable SH has been clocked.

You can assume it, but it so broad a generalisation it will limit the scope of any used car search.

my car has been self serviced for years because the "dealers" do such a bad job at it.

langdang

Anan1 wrote: »

Assume any car without a fully documented & verifiable SH has been clocked.

If you're shelling out any decent amount and you've time to look around then this is the ideal way to approach it!
(I'm at the bargain end of things so as long as x,y,z are ok and the price is right... I'm lucky that petrol suits me, I'd get fairly paranoid about a diesel with shadey history)

As cadaliac says, the rep mobile is a prime target for clocking, especially if they've been doing motorway miles in the UK...

Mc Love

Checked for fingerprints on the inside of the glass or any where on the dial display.

bryaner

Mc Love wrote: »

Checked for fingerprints on the inside of the glass or any where on the dial display.

Not really relevant as nearly all cars have digital odometers now.

spank_inferno

spank_inferno wrote: »

You can assume it, but it so broad a generalisation it will limit the scope of any used car search.

my car has been self serviced for years because the "dealers" do such a bad job at it.

Very true. If you're green you could buy a lemon with full service history from a main dealer. Clocking is not the huge problem the motor trade would have you believe.

Captain Slow IRL

mcshape wrote: »

A sure sign on a BMW is a dealer having to order you a "new key" as the previous one was damaged, i believe BMW 's hold BMW Service history and mileage on the key

No, the key doesn't hold the info - it reads the mileage off of the instrument cluster along with other back-up places the mileage is stored.

Anan1's post is probably the most thorough - no harm to have a mechanic with you as well!

stealthyspeeder

RoverJames wrote: »

Very true. If you're green you could buy a lemon with full service history from a main dealer. Clocking is not the huge problem the motor trade would have you believe.

+1

I would rather have a 100000 mile fully serviced well maintained motorway miles car that had some hidden miles on it (lets say the odometer showing 70,000) than a a car that had 50,000 genuine hard, short journey, city miles without a continuois service history.

JimmyCrackCorn

In boards motor theory all cars of below average miles are clocked.

In reality there is a couple of things to look out for.

MOT certs record mileage if its a uk car. (NCT being a load of balls and refuses to do useful stuff)

BMW and others record mileage at service so ring them

Older cars may have scratches around dash screws or cracked plastic around clocks.

Modern cars Its a software hack so your boned. Even the BMW keys are now hacked.


My personal favourite is gut feeling. If a sale feels wrong walk away there are plenty of other cars.

bryaner

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

In boards motor theory all cars of below average miles are clocked.

In reality there is a couple of things to look out for.

MOT certs record mileage if its a uk car. (NCT being a load of balls and refuses to do useful stuff)

BMW and others record mileage at service so ring them

Older cars may have scratches around dash screws or cracked plastic around clocks.

Modern cars Its a software hack so your boned. Even the BMW keys are now hacked.


My personal favourite is gut feeling. If a sale feels wrong walk away there are plenty of other cars.

Ehh I think you will find the NCT does record the mileage.

JoeySully

bryaner wrote: »

Ehh I think you will find the NCT does record the mileage.

Yeah they record the milage, but dont keep a record previous test milage or comment on any dropor discrepency in milage between tests.
The data is not publicly available or to any car check company like cartell I belive.
They might as well not do it at all.
The brother sent a ould Audi in for test with 100K less than the last test he did and got a new cert with the lower milage. He could have sold it with 150K instead of 250K. So the Milage on a NCT is usless unless you have all the others to back it up.

jimmycrackcorm

Anan1 wrote: »

Assume any car without a fully documented & verifiable SH has been clocked.

I stopped taking my car to a main dealer for servicing because I have a really good and trustworthy mechanic who's a fraction of the price.

I've heard enough stories about dealers charging for serviced "items" that weren't actually done.

bryaner

JoeySully wrote: »

Yeah they record the milage, but dont keep a record previous test milage or comment on any dropor discrepency in milage between tests.
The data is not publicly available or to any car check company like cartell I belive.
They might as well not do it at all.
The brother sent a ould Audi in for test with 100K less than the last test he did and got a new cert with the lower milage. He could have sold it with 150K instead of 250K. So the Milage on a NCT is usless unless you have all the others to back it up.

Well if you bought any motor with 150k without at least 2-3 certs

and not being able to spot the signs of a machine with 250k on it it's time

to go back to the school for special people.

bladespin

Worn pedal rubbers and knackered seats on a low milage car are a little suspect too.

cadaliac

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I stopped taking my car to a main dealer for servicing because I have a really good and trustworthy mechanic who's a fraction of the price.

I've heard enough stories about dealers charging for serviced "items" that weren't actually done.

Anan1 said a documented service histroy, not a main dealer history. This is what I assume you (and I both) have.
That I think is quite important, not so much a main dealer. Every time i get work done I write it into the book myself and get him to sign it. Not main dealer stuff but the buyer can see that care and attention was given to the car.

Max Headroom

Buy with your head and not your heart..sure it'll be all nice and clean and smell fresh ,.. but so can a tramp....;)

stealthyspeeder

Max Headroom wrote: »

Buy with your head and not your heart..sure it'll be all nice and clean and smell fresh ,.. but so can a tramp....;)

nobody would ever buy any interesting cars then...

mickdw

Only buy something with a reasonable record of history. Most cars will show a dealer history for first 2 years. It may then have independant garage stamps or just receipts.
I would be quite happy with motor factors receipts for oil, filters etc if someone was doing the servicing themselves.
IMO, If I found an owner who had a wallet full of receipts with dates that made sense versus the mileage being done, I would be happy. You can then check NCT mileages if available.
On modern cars, people are fooling themselves if they think they can tell the difference between say 60k & 100k miles specially on uk cars that have been 2 to 3years on motorways. Some form of history is the thing to look for.

langdang

bladespin wrote: »

Worn pedal rubbers and knackered seats on a low milage car are a little suspect too.

I've seen lovely barely worn pedal rubber on the pedal only to spot the original knackered one rattling around the door pocket haha!

mickdw

I dont rely on pedal rubbers anymore.
I bought an Audi TT with 70k miles on clock. clutch pedal was looking rather dodgy. Everything else checked out with the car so I bought it anyway.
Ordered myself a new pedal rubber from Audi. It went to bits again after about 30k miles so obviously the fault was in the pedal rubber design & not the car being clocked. Just shows - sometimes it can look dodgy but be perectly fine

pops

The last car I bought was an Accord with a FSH from the dealer and it's been a dream. I bought it from the UK because I couldn't find anything with a history here. I'm looking for something smallish 2 - 3 years old, so they wouldn't have much of a SH behind them, but still they should have something - right?

Anan1

pops wrote: »

I'm looking for something smallish 2 - 3 years old, so they wouldn't have much of a SH behind them, but still they should have something - right?

They should have what the service book says they should have.;)

scienceoverBS

[/QUOTE] Clocking is not the huge problem the motor trade would have you believe.[/QUOTE]

rofl its absolutely rampant. also little city cars are clocked just as much as bmws and the like . it costs as little as ?20 to clock a car which can add from 500 to 15,000 to car prices , you do the maths .also fsh dont mean squat you can buy a garage rubber stamp for a fiver.not trying to scare anybody here but im in the car game 20 years , im just sick of rouge dealers screwing punters .

scienceoverBS

Clocking is not the huge problem the motor trade would have you believe.[/QUOTE]

rofl its absolutely rampant. also little city cars are clocked just as much as bmws and the like . it costs as little as ?20 to clock a car which can add from 500 to 15,000 to car prices , you do the maths .also fsh dont mean squat you can buy a garage rubber stamp for a fiver.not trying to scare anybody here but im in the car game 20 years , im just sick of rouge dealers screwing punters .[/QUOTE]

Thank's for that, I have a grain of salt handy

scienceoverBS wrote: »

im in the car trade 20 years and let me tell you a secret , there is no honest car dealers in ireland , fact .

kazul

It's so ironic for a car dealer to take the higher ground but when you're really in the game you fool yourself into thinking that you're a nice guy.
My work persona when I was selling was so different that I even changed to using my middle name :eek:
Sorry to go OT but it's like a drug when you're closing deals and shifting units, and you get withdrawals when it dries up. I'm thinking of going back but the missus says no.

An Ri rua

scienceoverBS wrote: »

Clocking is not the huge problem the motor trade would have you believe.[/QUOTE]

rofl its absolutely rampant. also little city cars are clocked just as much as bmws and the like . it costs as little as ?20 to clock a car which can add from 500 to 15,000 to car prices , you do the maths .also fsh dont mean squat you can buy a garage rubber stamp for a fiver.not trying to scare anybody here but im in the car game 20 years , im just sick of rouge dealers screwing punters .[/QUOTE]

Hear hear. Agreed re service histories. very easy with scanners and stamps to put a good history together. Receipts are a much better option. In fact, I've seen so many dealers over the years who NEVER stamped books. Atrocious what goes on in little ol Ireland.

Henry Ford III

Is a rouge dealer one who gets caught for clocking a car, and is a bit embarrassed about it?

scienceoverBS

RoverJames wrote: »

Clocking is not the huge problem the motor trade would have you believe.

rofl its absolutely rampant. also little city cars are clocked just as much as bmws and the like . it costs as little as ?20 to clock a car which can add from 500 to 15,000 to car prices , you do the maths .also fsh dont mean squat you can buy a garage rubber stamp for a fiver.not trying to scare anybody here but im in the car game 20 years , im just sick of rouge dealers screwing punters .[/QUOTE]

Thank's for that, I have a grain of salt handy [/QUOTE]

lol your probably a dealer . truths a bit hard to swallow.salt might help

I'm not a dealer at all

scienceoverBS

RoverJames wrote: »

I'm not a dealer at all

i did say probably , although i might have been a bit hasty saying theres no honest dealers in ireland , there are a few , one of them recently went bang on the long mile road.
so there a dying breed im afraid.

pops

So what, do you take a chance with an Irish dealer or try going to the UK where your chances might be a bit better? Seriously can't afford a brand new car but can't afford the time to travel to the UK. Plus I would actually like to support Irish business - aren't the dealers shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak?!

Guy:Incognito

spank_inferno wrote: »

You can assume it, but it so broad a generalisation it will limit the scope of any used car search.

my car has been self serviced for years because the "dealers" do such a bad job at it.

Service history doesnt have to mean stamped by a dealer. A self serviced car with a book of receipts is a huge amount better than somethign that doesnt even have an owners manual in the glovebox.

langdang wrote: »

If you're shelling out any decent amount and you've time to look around then this is the ideal way to approach it!.

If everyoen insisted on service histories then it woudl become the norm because cars without it would sit in dealers and never sell. It would become very easy to find cars with histories.

JoeySully wrote: »

Yeah they record the milage, but dont keep a record previous test milage or comment on any dropor discrepency in milage between tests.
The data is not publicly available or to any car check company like cartell I belive.
They might as well not do it at all.
The brother sent a ould Audi in for test with 100K less than the last test he did and got a new cert with the lower milage. He could have sold it with 150K instead of 250K. So the Milage on a NCT is usless unless you have all the others to back it up.

As part if a fsh all the NCT certs should be there along with mileage on each. If your keeping a history why would you not keep the certs unless your hiding something? So if someone insists in a fsh then it should all match up.

scienceoverBS wrote: »

Clocking is not the huge problem the motor trade would have you believe.[/QUOTE]

rofl its absolutely rampant. also little city cars are clocked just as much as bmws and the like . it costs as little as ?20 to clock a car which can add from 500 to 15,000 to car prices , you do the maths .also fsh dont mean squat you can buy a garage rubber stamp for a fiver.not trying to scare anybody here but im in the car game 20 years , im just sick of rouge dealers screwing punters .[/QUOTE]

Ringing a garage to check th ehistory wont hold up if the guy stamped it himself though, will it?

pops

pops wrote: »

So what, do you take a chance with an Irish dealer or try going to the UK where your chances might be a bit better? Seriously can't afford a brand new car but can't afford the time to travel to the UK. Plus I would actually like to support Irish business - aren't the dealers shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak?!

There are loads of cars on Irish forecourts with full main dealer service histories that have not been clocked. Lots of people trade the car in where they bought it and had it serviced.

Max Headroom

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

nobody would ever buy any interesting cars then...

thats the trouble...people want "safe" cars....like corolla's..sorry bad example...:p

An Ri rua

pops wrote: »

So what, do you take a chance with an Irish dealer or try going to the UK where your chances might be a bit better? Seriously can't afford a brand new car but can't afford the time to travel to the UK. Plus I would actually like to support Irish business - aren't the dealers shooting themselves in the foot, so to speak?!

You can support an Irish operation that imports cars and charges you a fee for it. Deliver it to your door VRT'd etc. There's a crowd in Cork, plus I'm sure there's more. You coud get the car checked by RAC etc. No need to travel !