Irish Should be compulsory?? WHAT YOU THINK?

grrrrrrrrrr

Just wondering what people think about having to do irish for the LC!

I find myself hating our native lanuage more and more.
Biology and chemistry- will be essential for any science course!
French- very useful for travelling and business abroad!
Maths- Fundamental in many corners of life!
English- so important for conversing and communticating!
IRISH- well eh, em, err......... (if its not complusary then you prob wont need it for primary teaching)

And it could be just that im annoyed that on top of many extremely important topics in other subjects ive to learn pages about poetry that seems to be completely pointless!!

Opinions?

Mayoegian

In my opinion, Irish should be compulsary. It is our native language, and few countries have the privilege of having their own language. In many ways, it sets us apart.

However, I think there needs to be a revision of the course, because many people who are doing Irish, don't have a good grasp of it, yet they are expected to be able to comment and give their opinions on poetry and stories. Language is all about communicating, and I think there should be a larger emphasis on speaking and understanding it.

People are always saying 'I hate Irish', 'It shouldn't be made compulsary' etc. However, if you gave students have the chance to drop English or Maths-believe me, they'd take it. People tend to pick on Irish because it's that bit harder than those subjects, and they see no real point in studying it.

The Irish language is a huge part of both our cultural and historical heritage and if it was to be made optional, so many people would drop it that it would soon die out. Making it optional won't stop some people hating Irish-the same course would still be there. It's the curriculum that needs to be revised, and a larger emphasis placed on speaking and understanding it.

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam!

Risteard

I agree. I'm finished school now so I don't have to do it but the course itself is meaningless. I managed to get a C1 in honours purely by learning things off by heart and knowing a few words in the questions and I can't even help my brother do his homework. He's in second year.

It should be compulsory to Junior Cert IMO and focused more on speaking. The only time I ever enjoyed Irish was when I was doing work for the oral exam and that was only for a few weeks, not learning poems and repeating the same sentences for every poem. 'The images are very effective.'

fkt

Mayoegian wrote: »

In my opinion, Irish should be compulsary. It is our native language, and few countries have the privilege of having their own language. In many ways, it sets us apart.

But some of us couldn't care less about this 'priviliege'. It should be available to those who have an interest, rather than force fed to all.

Fad

Copied from my post in the JC forum.

Guess what?

You are not the first person to think of this, you are not the first person to say this You are not a unique snow flake........

Just get on with it! Complaining about the system is pointless. Your time would be better spent trying to understand it.

Look, I'm not trying to totally dismiss what you're saying, just it's so incredibly pointless to whinge about it! You are stuck studying it!

And in contribution to the actual discussion, I am dead against making Irish optional. I like it, I think it's quite a simple language, often poorly taught, but that's just an excuse, students are too lazy most of the time and try and deflect the blame of their failure on to teachers.........

[/rant]

DancingQueen:)

I think it should still be compulsary but as others have said the course needs to be changed. I used to love Irish in primary school but when i got to secondary and had to learn about poems and essays my grasp of the language went out the window.
I can hardly speak it and my aurals are in the next few months. It's not that i'm bad at languages either because I love french I just find that we spend too much time focusing on poets and comprehensions. I havn't spoken a word of irish in class since third year when I said 'Anseo' and I think the course would be a lot better if we spent more time focusing on other things.

dermothickey

well...since english is compulsory i suppose the ould gaeilge should be too

ciano1

Make it more like like the french course .
More emphasis on speaking and actually understanding the language.

Get rid of the poetry shíte and the literature!

Mayoegian

fkt wrote: »

But some of us couldn't care less about this 'priviliege'. It should be available to those who have an interest, rather than force fed to all.

Oh I know, and from your post that's very apparent. However, 'couldn't care less' is the attitude some students who do Irish take, and interestingly it is these same students that are calling for Irish to be made optional. If Irish was to be made optional, it would kill it off altogether.

grrrrrrrrrr

Fad wrote: »

Copied from my post in the JC forum.

Guess what?

You are not the first person to think of this, you are not the first person to say this You are not a unique snow flake........

Just get on with it! Complaining about the system is pointless. Your time would be better spent trying to understand it.

Look, I'm not trying to totally dismiss what you're saying, just it's so incredibly pointless to whinge about it! You are stuck studying it!

And in contribution to the actual discussion, I am dead against making Irish optional. I like it, I think it's quite a simple language, often poorly taught, but that's just an excuse, students are too lazy most of the time and try and deflect the blame of their failure on to teachers.........

[/rant]

point taken but if you were to have this "sit down not talk about it" attitude then there would be few posts on boards. I got an A in my JC irish and will prob be using it for my leaving but it is completely pointless!

Where is it needed in life? dont take the whole moral high ground on the irish because that gets us nowhere in the discussion! If you were to have a poll i would think it would show it should be at least optional.

it would do better to put the money into extra maths or science classes that could contribute to the developement of the country and economy! what good does irish do?

Tourist wont refuse to come here because we cant speak irish! its mostly forgeiners working in hotels anyway so you can not bring tourism into the debate. If you limited irish to paper one that may be a starting point but what could is it to anyone that you can recite 20 pages of poetry and 20 pages on stories...

I used LOVE irish and always felt that it was essential to our identity but be honest with yourself its not!!

One last Q- How often do you converse in your native tongue??

spurious

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

One last Q- How often do you converse in your native tongue??

The last conversation I had in Irish was in a Warsaw cafe with a Polish woman who had taught herself with one textbook and the internet.
She had better Irish than I have and made me feel quite ashamed of myself.

Ash_M

I speak Irish every day, in fact I'm chatting to my mother as Gaeilge right now. I love the language, but the course is rubbish. It's worrying that in my honours class, I'm one of maybe 3 out of 25+ who could have a normal conversation in Irish. There's nothing in the course to instill any kind of love of the language in students, and it doesn't build up to a level of fluency or even conversational Irish, it become rote learning. Make Irish Language compulsory, and then if they really want to, make the dáin, filíocht etc, a subject in it's own right.

Risteard

Mayoegian wrote: »

Oh I know, and from your post that's very apparent. However, 'couldn't care less' is the attitude some students who do Irish take, and interestingly it is these same students that are calling for Irish to be made optional. If Irish was to be made optional, it would kill it off altogether.

But the people who wanted to do Irish would do it anyway. Generally the people who do well in Irish are the ones that like it, the same as any subject and even then the LC course has little to do with speaking the language.

Learning about poems and stories won't keep it alive and all it does is foster bad feelings towards it.

grrrrrrrrrr

Mayoegian wrote: »

Oh I know, and from your post that's very apparent. However, 'couldn't care less' is the attitude some students who do Irish take, and interestingly it is these same students that are calling for Irish to be made optional. If Irish was to be made optional, it would kill it off altogether.

But let people choose what they want to do. Leave maths and english to be "have-to-do" subjects as they are essential in everyday life, for reasons i gave earlier!

and it is more than just lazy students commenting because they couldnt be bothered!! Look at people such as michael o leary, one of the least lazy irish people there is(love him or hate him!!).

And if less people do it it'll save the gov millions!!!!!!!

grrrrrrrrrr

spurious wrote: »

The last conversation I had in Irish was in a Warsaw cafe with a Polish woman who had taught herself with one textbook and the internet.
She had better Irish than I have and made me feel quite ashamed of myself.

Says alot about the teaching of irish to start. and shows the lanuage will prob not die out...

grrrrrrrrrr

Ash_M wrote: »

There's nothing in the course to instill any kind of love of the language in students, and it doesn't build up to a level of fluency or even conversational Irish, it become rote learning. Make Irish Language compulsory, and then if they really want to, make the dáin, filíocht etc, a subject in it's own right.

I do agree that this would be a major positive lept forward BUT what would be the point? What is the value in learning a lanuage like this??

spurious

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

Says alot about the teaching of irish to start. and shows the lanuage will prob not die out...

It also made me go back and take some classes.
I had not forgotten as much as I thought it had.

For those that are interested, here's an article she wrote:
http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/philo-celticsociety/message/2290

Mayoegian

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

point taken but if you were to have this "sit down not talk about it" attitude then there would be few posts on boards. I got an A in my JC irish and will prob be using it for my leaving but it is completely pointless!

Where is it needed in life? dont take the whole moral high ground on the irish because that gets us nowhere in the discussion! If you were to have a poll i would think it would show it should be at least optional.

Where's the moral high ground? If you were to take a poll on whether to scrap maths or not, I can tell you it would be overwhelmingly in favour of doing that. Irish is a hard subject for some people, and so has got a bad, unjustified reputation.

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

it would do better to put the money into extra maths or science classes that could contribute to the developement of the country and economy! what good does irish do?

Tourist wont refuse to come here because we cant speak irish! its mostly forgeiners working in hotels anyway so you can not bring tourism into the debate. If you limited irish to paper one that may be a starting point but what could is it to anyone that you can recite 20 pages of poetry and 20 pages on stories...

I used LOVE irish and always felt that it was essential to our identity but be honest with yourself its not!!

One last Q- How often do you converse in your native tongue??

How often do you converse in French? I converse in Irish about 30% of the time. So too do 60000 other people in Ireland!

grrrrrrrrrr

Mayoegian wrote: »

Tír gan teanga, tír gan anam!

yes, proof of this is seen as USA, Canada, Scotland(as their lanuage is dead) and numerous other countries have no soul??(sarcasm)

Many countries dont have their own countries. they arent all mad cowboys with no morals or soul

Ash_M

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

I do agree that this would be a major positive lept forward BUT what would be the point? What is the value in learning a lanuage like this??

Personally, I love the fact I can speak Irish. And I know a lot of people who aren't fans of the LC Irish, but enjoy being able to throw together a conversation. I don't know is it cultural identity or what, but I feel the language is very much part of me, and I'd hate to see it die out. You could argue that there are aspects of English and Maths that aren't really useful to anyone not seeking further education in those fields.

grrrrrrrrrr

Mayoegian wrote: »

Where's the moral high ground? If you were to take a poll on whether to scrap maths or not, I can tell you it would be overwhelmingly in favour of doing that. Irish is a hard subject for some people, and so has got a bad, unjustified reputation.




How often do you converse in French? I converse in Irish about 30% of the time. So too do 60000 other people in Ireland!

Well do a poll of mature people who have left school so! they will not say to drop maths because they see the importance of it! and look at the engineers ireland report on maths. they want to bring engineers into the class as they see the main reason why students arent doing well is because they dont see the point in what they are doing.. they want to bring in the engineers to tell and show students why they are important!!

Let me ask you this, who would you bring into an irish class to show its purpose??



When i was away over the summer i spoke french! i wouldnt have got by without it to be honest as i didnt travel to one of the major tourists hot spots so english there was quite poor!

When you speak irish 30% of the time, would you not understand the other person if you were not speaking irish?? doubt it!

chughes

I would agree with the posters who said that the problem is the way Irish is taught. As I see it, Leaving Cert Irish assumes a level of Irish where poetry and literature can be discussed in the same way that English poetry and literature is discussed. The fact of the matter is that for the majority of the Irish born inhabitants of this country, English is the mother tongue. If Irish was thought like a continental language, which is more conversational, there might be more of a chance that Irish would be spoken by people when they leave school.
I would imagine that changing the emphesis to conversional would not go down well with the people who think that both English and Irish should be of equal status.
To say that Irish will die out as a language if it's not compulsary is not correct, in my opinion. As far as I know, learning Welsh isn't compulsary in Wales but there are enough people interested there to keep it alive.
To sum up, I don't think it should be compulsary for the Leaving Cert and I think the emphesis should be on conversational rather than poetry/literature.
By the way, good luck to all you people doing the Leaving Cert this year.

grrrrrrrrrr

Ash_M wrote: »

You could argue that there are aspects of English and Maths that aren't really useful to anyone not seeking further education in those fields.

Yes i do agree there but suppose they are only small topics of the course compared to entire courses!

grrrrrrrrrr

chughes wrote: »

I would agree with the posters who said that the problem is the way Irish is taught. As I see it, Leaving Cert Irish assumes a level of Irish where poetry and literature can be discussed in the same way that English poetry and literature is discussed. The fact of the matter is that for the majority of the Irish born inhabitants of this country, English is the mother tongue. If Irish was thought like a continental language, which is more conversational, there might be more of a chance that Irish would be spoken by people when they leave school.
I would imagine that changing the emphesis to conversional would not go down well with the people who think that both English and Irish should be of equal status.
To say that Irish will die out as a language if it's not compulsary is not correct, in my opinion. As far as I know, learning Welsh isn't compulsary in Wales but there are enough people interested there to keep it alive.
To sum up, I don't think it should be compulsary for the Leaving Cert and I think the emphesis should be on conversational rather than poetry/literature.
By the way, good luck to all you people doing the Leaving Cert this year.

Here here

GreeBo

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

Irish Should be complusory?? WHAT YOU THINK?

Seems to me someone should start with English first...:rolleyes:

Ash_M

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes i do agree there but suppose they are only small topics of the course compared to entire courses!

I don't think that the actual learning of the language is irrelevant and pointless. I'd happily cut out the literary sections of the course, and I think it's rubbish that the way the exam is designed you could be a fluent speaker and not come out with a fantastic grade. But having the rudiments of the language, I think that is important.

jimmmy

Irish is a dead language. Too much money and time is wasted on it. There is no interest in it. How many times have you ever seen anyone in YOUR local newsagent buying a book or a magazine in Irish. Save a billion a year, forget about it being compulsory.

grrrrrrrrrr

GreeBo wrote: »

Seems to me someone should start with English first...:rolleyes:

Haw Haw..... was trying to make it less serious sounding!! "What are your thoughts on the matter?" propably wouldnt fit anyway

Ash_M

jimmmy wrote: »

Irish is a dead language. Too much money and time is wasted on it. There is no interest in it. How many times have you ever seen anyone in YOUR local newsagent buying a book or a magazine in Irish. Save a billion a year, forget about it being compulsory.

I read in Irish, and there are more people than you'd think who speak it pretty regularly. It's not in the best shape, but it's not a dead language.

Iwasfrozen

Ash_M wrote: »

I don't think that the actual learning of the language is irrelevant and pointless. I'd happily cut out the literary sections of the course, and I think it's rubbish that the way the exam is designed you could be a fluent speaker and not come out with a fantastic grade. But having the rudiments of the language, I think that is important.

I can see your point, but at the end of the day you are agreeing with a system that takes away a persons right to choose their own education, a system that forces one to learn a language that is already brain dead.

Why should the Government force one to learn any language ? All subjects should be optional. Especially useless ones like Irish.


Woot: 1,111th post !

grrrrrrrrrr

Ash_M wrote: »

I don't think that the actual learning of the language is irrelevant and pointless. I'd happily cut out the literary sections of the course, and I think it's rubbish that the way the exam is designed you could be a fluent speaker and not come out with a fantastic grade. But having the rudiments of the language, I think that is important.

Yes but could you not do this if it was an optional subject??

DaveyDave

I think people should be given the choice on if they want to do it or not.

Personally, I couldn't give a damn that it's our native language when I don't speak it and I have no use for it.

My time would be better spent doing something else, like Technology. I could easily get a high grade in higher level technology, which isn't taught at my school, yet I struggle to get a pass in ordinary Irish.

Ash_M

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I can see your point, but at the end of the day you are agreeing with a system that takes away a persons right to choose their own education, a system that forces one to learn a language that is already brain dead.

Why should the Government force one to learn any language ? All subjects should be optional. Especially useless ones like Irish.


Woot: 1,111th post !

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes but could you not do this if it was an optional subject??

I'm forced to do English and Maths too, but there's a lot less complaints about that. And I know that they have their every day applications, but I actually use Gaeilge more than I'm asked to differentiate something or other, or for my views on Hamlet's internal struggle.

Congrats on the 1,111 :P

grrrrrrrrrr

Ash_M wrote: »

I read in Irish, and there are more people than you'd think who speak it pretty regularly. It's not in the best shape, but it's not a dead language.

Yes but its not needed for life in general? Just a point. like let people go to the gaeltacht in the summer and do a course outside school if they want.... and have the OPTION of doing it in school

Iwasfrozen

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

Yes but could you not do this if it was an optional subject??

Certainly, If Ieish were an optional subject then only those interested in the language would do it. Those that are doing it would pick up alot of Irish, as the course demands.

The rest of us, who choose not to learn this "teanga marbh" would be quite content with learning a few "foclóir" of the old "Idirlíon". Everyone would be happy.

You will learn however grrrrrrrrrr that there are those in this world who would like to force their own belifes and culture onto others and will seek the law of the state to do so.

grrrrrrrrrr

Ash_M wrote: »

I'm forced to do English and Maths too, but there's a lot less complaints about that. And I know that they have their every day applications, but I actually use Gaeilge more than I'm asked to differentiate something or other, or for my views on Hamlet's internal struggle.

But its not about Hmlets struggle, its about being able to comprehen!!
As for differentiation, there are topics on EVERY course that you may not use in your life!

Iwasfrozen

Ash_M wrote: »

I'm forced to do English and Maths too, but there's a lot less complaints about that. And I know that they have their every day applications, but I actually use Gaeilge more than I'm asked to differentiate something or other, or for my views on Hamlet's internal struggle.

Congrats on the 1,111 :P

Your case is not the case for every student in the country however, Ash. While you may have an everyday use of this language and indeed a love of it you must understand that there are those who do not. That is why I put to you a very simple question:

Why must a person who has no use nor love of the Irish language learn it ?

grrrrrrrrrr

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You will learn however grrrrrrrrrr that there are those in this world who would like to force their own belifes and culture onto others and will seek the law of the state to do so.

Just for your last point there i do concur and would like to draw your attention to the woman last week who brought the dept to court to ban the teaching of english in gaelscoileanna!! she won as far as i know but the schools must teach english to the kids at the parents request!!

it was in one of the sunday papers recently but i cant find a link for it!!

Ash_M

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Your case is not the case for every student in the country however, Ash. While you may have an everyday use of this language and indeed a love of it you must understand that there are thos who do not. That is why I put to you a very simple question:

Why must a person who has no use nor love of the Irish language learn it ?

I understand that point, and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind too much if no subject was compulsory, it's just the never ending argument over it regarding Irish. The one thing I would say, is that if I hadn't been made do it up to JC, I'd probably have chosen not to, but now I'm thankful that I did because I just went and learnt the language itself.

Lawliet

Even if Irish were made optional, plenty of people would still have to do it, if only to meet third level entry requirements.

grrrrrrrrrr

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why must a person who has no use nor love of the Irish language learn it ?

i agree but im sure that people will continue to use maths and english as another example of this!

but im more on your side

grrrrrrrrrr

Lawliet wrote: »

Even if Irish were made optional, plenty of people would still have to do it, if only to meet third level entry requirements.

im sure it'd be a fraction of what is doing it today. only 6 of the 40 or so doing honours in my school are going for primary teaching!!

That leaves 80 that dont need it!!

Iwasfrozen

Ash_M wrote: »

I understand that point, and to be perfectly honest, I wouldn't mind too much if no subject was compulsory, it's just the never ending argument over it regarding Irish. The one thing I would say, is that if I hadn't been made do it up to JC, I'd probably have chosen not to, but now I'm thankful that I did because I just went and learnt the language itself.

If the subject was optional you would still have the choice to learn it, it just wouldn't be forced on you.

Iwasfrozen

Lawliet wrote: »

Even if Irish were made optional, plenty of people would still have to do it, if only to meet third level entry requirements.

No they wouldn't, Universities would be forced to drop the requirement due to the lack of numbers if Irish is dropped.

Why must one learn Irish to enroll in a mathamatics course ?

grrrrrrrrrr

Ash_M wrote: »

The one thing I would say, is that if I hadn't been made do it up to JC, I'd probably have chosen not to, but now I'm thankful that I did because I just went and learnt the language itself.

you could say that if you didnt keep on business or french for jc you wouldnt have done them for LC but thats the risk you take when your are choosing subjects!!

as in you dont expect every subject to be complusary till junior cert just so you can decide that you dont think its pointless.

ok a conveluted point but try to understand me!!

Ash_M

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If the subject was optional you would still have the choice to learn it, it just wouldn't be forced on you.

What I mean is that I wouldn't have bothered if I hadn't had to do it, but I'm glad I did,

grrrrrrrrrr

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No they wouldn't, Universities would be forced to drop the requirement due to the lack of numbers if Irish is dropped.

Why must one learn Irish to enroll in a mathamatics course ?

Here Here

Lawliet

grrrrrrrrrr wrote: »

im sure it'd be a fraction of what is doing it today. only 6 of the 40 or so doing honours in my school are going for primary teaching!!

That leaves 80 that dont need it!!

You're forgetting about NUIs they require Irish as well as a third language. And then there's collages that accept Irish instead of a foreign language like French or German.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No they wouldn't, Universities would be forced to drop the requirement due to the lack of numbers if Irish is dropped.

Wishful thinking but I doubt the majority of people would risk dropping Irish if it meant they might not be able to apply to their dream collage. I'd image most would keep Irish on to keep their options open.

Iwasfrozen

Ash_M wrote: »

What I mean is that I wouldn't have bothered if I hadn't had to do it, but I'm glad I did,

That may be your case, but why do you think Irish must be mandatory for the 99% of people who don't like it ?

grrrrrrrrrr

Just set up a poll there! its 100% for its optioniliasation!! well there is only one vote! ha

Ash_M

Reforming it would be fantastic.