The Trinity MA

sjfsjf

So, after graduating from trinity 3 years ago, I can now 'upgrade' to an MA. I looked in the calendar and the fee (for commencements or whatever), is €637. This is not a insignificant amount of money, and most people from college consider the MA to be a bit of joke, so now I am doubting whether it is really worth it.

Does anyone know how the MA is looked on in the 'real world'? The only people I have seen defending it to come from an oxbridge/academia background, which isn't very interesting to me. What I am wondering is, what employeers think of it, do they consider it a fake MA? (which would mean €637 wasted). Or maybe people outside of TCD have never even heard of it...

claire h

It's possible that some employers would look at it and read it as a postgrad masters - in same way that they might look at undergrad MAs from some of the Scottish universities and mistake it for postgrad, though honestly it'd be pretty clear from your CV what it was (e.g. if you're giving the date, and no particular course or dissertation title, and it's three years after you've graduated...) Definitely more a thing for academics than for the so-called 'real world'.

Time Magazine

As far as I know, it's considered as a relevant postgraduate qualification by the Department of Education. That's a complete joke.

It would act as a negative signal in my opinion if an interviewer asked "So your CV says you have an MA, how did you fit that in with work?" and you replied "Well, actually..."

It has uses only in the quare auld rules of the University, and these rules should be updated to reflect the seventeenth twenty-first century.

goingnowhere

The majority of graduates who hold the MA are postgraduates are conferred with it upon PhD graduation

Very very few people come back just to collect an MA.

Oxford and Cambridge also confer an MA under the same terms and a University of Dublin graduate who is either a postgraduate or staff in Oxford or Cambridge may receive their MA there (and for a fraction of what TCD charge).

Its well known and understood by HR people at 3rd/4th level. If you get into trouble in an interview it is your own fault for not representing it correctly on your CV.

Fad

If I was an employer and some chancer tried to list it as if it was a taught/research masters, I would show them the door with no hesitation.

That said, I would think a lot of people dont really know what it is.

Denerick

Whats the difference?

goingnowhere

MA = awarded upon application to any graduate of the University of Dublin who holds a BA degree of any class or type, who is in good standing and graduated at least 3 years before. No academic effort required though some might argue that completing the paperwork is worthy of a qualification. As in its worth nothing more than the paper it is printed on in the eyes of anyone who bothers to check the qualification. That said to get the MA you must have a BA.

MPhil/MSc = awarded following successful completion of a course of independent research (2 years normally) and submission of a thesis approved by the examining committee at viva aka By Research

OR

following successful completion of a course of study and independent research (1 years full time normally), pass in all exams and submission of a thesis approved by the examining committee (no viva) aka Taught

claire h

MPhil at TCD = taught 1-year; MLitt is for the research ones in the arts and humanities. And you'll notice that you can't do a taught MA in Trinity, to avoid confusion (internally, at least).

To make matters more confusing, have seen MPhil used to denote research masters in other institutions (where the taught masters would be an MA)... but as said earlier, it's usually pretty clear from a CV what's what.

goingnowhere

Being really pedantic about this but Trinity doesn't issue a MA, the University of Dublin does

There was a time that Trinity itself conferred the degrees for DIT, so its important to be clear.

Time Magazine

goingnowhere wrote: »

Being really pedantic about this but Trinity doesn't issue a MA, the University of Dublin does

There was a time that Trinity itself conferred the degrees for DIT, so its important to be clear.

The University of Dublin gave the DIT degrees afaik. They have votes in the Seanad, so I don't think it was TCD.

Boston

I'd get one for the letters if nothing else. Boston, BABAIMAPhD

mathew

Boston wrote: »

I'd get one for the letters if nothing else. Boston, BABAIMAPhD

Desn't the BA change to MA??

Boston

Why would it, they're separate qualifications.

Time Magazine

mathew wrote: »

Desn't the BA change to MA??

Yeah I think so, look at The Calendar - there's nobody with both a B.A. and M.A.

I kinda wanna get one so I can be a mommy.

Irishrossoblu

As far as I remember, its just a TSM thing in Trinity. Based on the fact that you do 2 subjects for 3 years (like a BA in UCD) and then spend your 4th year doing one subject and writing a thesis in that subject, which is where the MA comes from. I got it to be honest. Paid less that the €600, in the region of €400 I think. Its grand for your CV outside Ireland.

They also have chip and pin on the stage in the exam hall so you can pay just before you recieve your MA cert!

I'd never use it apart from in academic circumstances in Europe to be honest.

kicom

Fad wrote: »

If I was an employer and some chancer tried to list it as if it was a taught/research masters, I would show them the door with no hesitation.

The MA is a real master's. I think you just have a chip on your shoulder against graduates from the UofD.

That said, it's probably a good idea to but the Latin in parentheses after the postnominals to avoid offending ignorami.

kicom

Time Magazine wrote: »

It has uses only in the quare auld rules of the University, and these rules should be updated to reflect the seventeenth twenty-first century.

This university has survived 400 years for a reason. People like you always come and go.

kicom

goingnowhere wrote: »

The majority of graduates who hold the MA are postgraduates are conferred with it upon PhD graduation

What??? A PhD does not entitle you to the MA. Yes, you can commence with both on the same day (assuming you've "paid" for your MA), but why would one do that? It would be a waste of a good commencements ceremony (not to mention piss-up).

Time Magazine

kicom wrote: »

The MA is a real master's. I think you just have a chip on your shoulder against graduates from the UofD.

It depends on your definition of "real". Real in the sense that it begins with 'M' and is conferred by a university; completely fake in the sense that they offer a degree beginning with 'B' for the same academic standards.

kicom wrote: »

This university has survived 400 years for a reason.

Yes, excellence. Not tradition.

People like you always come and go.

And people like you mostly cling on.

kicom

Time Magazine wrote: »

It depends on your definition of "real". Real in the sense that it begins with 'M' and is conferred by a university; completely fake in the sense that they offer a degree beginning with 'B' for the same academic standards.

To use the word "fake" and refer to the MA in one sentence is pretty pathetic.

Time Magazine wrote: »

Yes, excellence. Not tradition.

Let's shut down Commons and abolish fellowship - it only costs money. Money that could be spent on some hair-brained administrative project. Sure why not sell the 52 acres and build out in Ratoath - sure we can hire in a load of Chinese PhDs to do the gimp work and live perpetually off the trust fund. You should have more respect for the institution.

Time Magazine wrote: »

And people like you mostly cling on.

How would you know? Is your name even in the calendar?

Fad

kicom wrote: »

The MA is a real master's.

Not in the sense of qualifications. You just pay for it, that's it. It requires no work, no research, no exams.

kicom

Fad wrote: »

It requires no work, no research, no exams.

It reflects the rigorous demands of the Dublin BA.

Fad

kicom wrote: »

It reflects the rigorous demands of the Dublin BA

Then why do they bother awarding any other Masters then?

ilovemybrick

kicom wrote: »

How would you know? Is your name even in the calendar?

Slow hand clap for you. That is simply too pretentious for any sort of response.

Time Magazine

ilovemybrick wrote: »

Slow hand clap for you. That is simply too pretentious for any sort of response.

No, no, he's right. As a graduate who has moved on in life, and therefore not in the Calendar, my opinion cannot be correct.

Remember great universities are built not on excellent academic standards but on prestige, tradition and listings in the College Calendar.

kicom

Time Magazine wrote: »

Remember great universities are built not on excellent academic standards but on prestige, tradition and listings in the College Calendar.

I guess we'd better start making plans to move to Rathoath.

Excellence does not come about spontaneously. It requires the right environment.

Time Magazine

kicom wrote: »

I guess we'd better start making plans to move to Rathoath.

Honey, reductio ad absurdum will typically not hold unless one's argument is monotonic to infinity.

Suggesting College should rid itself of some shackles is not the same thing as suggesting it disband Commons, Scholarships and Fellowships.

Staunch GOP activists argue against US health-care reform on the grounds of it "being socialist". They offer no analysis of the issue at hand, just meaningless references to the infinite horizon. You are adopting a subtle and petulant version of this. Thankfully arguments at the most undergraduate of levels are typically not entertained outside of the GMB.

kicom

Time Magazine wrote: »

Suggesting College should rid itself of some shackles is not the same thing as suggesting it disband Commons, Scholarships and Fellowships.

Really? You'd wonder why they bothered rebuilding the Dining Hall after the fire in '84.

Time Magazine wrote: »

Staunch GOP activists argue against US health-care reform on the grounds of it "being socialist". They offer no analysis of the issue at hand, just meaningless references to the infinite horizon. You are adopting a subtle and petulant version of this. Thankfully arguments at the most undergraduate of levels are typically not entertained outside of the GMB.

Thankfully indeed. Thankfully people with MAs (the people who are prepared to put their hand in their pocket and support the College) have greater influence on College committees. And I don't know where you are going with the US politics reference.

claire h

kicom wrote: »

Thankfully people with MAs (the people who are prepared to put their hand in their pocket and support the College) have greater influence on College committees.

Oh, less of this nonsense, please - now justifying the MA fee as a way for noble Trinity-loving graduates to 'support the College'? Just because something is 'tradition' doesn't mean it's unquestionable. Why does no one ever spouting on about 'tradition' in Trinity realise that actually things haven't stayed exactly the same since 1592, that successive generations have actually updated certain aspects of how the college works, not always to everyone's pleasure either, and that actually it might be possible that there are some elements of college life that - gasp! - can and should be questioned and debated as to their use today.

goingnowhere

The holder of an MA has no power or influence over the College what so ever, unless they are a student or staff and even then the MA grants no authority beyond the ability to wear the higher ranking gown if the holder so wishes at those events where gowns are worn.

Holders of an MA do however, if resident in a constituent College of the University of Dublin (Trinity) become members of the body corporate of the University of Dublin as they are Masters or Doctors of the University

Now that is a really exclusive group of less than 30 people, mostly fellows and some of the junior deans and the odd PhD student who did a masters. Never worked out what power it granted you beyond seats at commencement ceremonies.

Boston

Interesting.

Prof.Badass

goingnowhere wrote: »

The holder of an MA has no power or influence over the College what so ever, unless they are a student or staff and even then the MA grants no authority beyond the ability to wear the higher ranking gown if the holder so wishes at those events where gowns are worn.

cocaine sex orgies ftw!!!

kicom wrote: »

sure we can hire in a load of Chinese PhDs to do gimp work

Happens already (see above point).

kicom

goingnowhere wrote: »

The holder of an MA has no power or influence over the College what so ever, unless they are a student or staff and even then the MA grants no authority beyond the ability to wear the higher ranking gown if the holder so wishes at those events where gowns are worn.

Gowns should be worn a lot more often IMO. The MA is the highest ranking master's degree awarded by the UofD. Prime places in the College Chapel are highly sought after - and still are at Christmas/Easter time of year. Also, on Trinity Monday, your academic standing is of importance.

goingnowhere wrote: »

Holders of an MA do however, if resident in a constituent College of the University of Dublin (Trinity) become members of the body corporate of the University of Dublin as they are Masters or Doctors of the University

Now that is a really exclusive group of less than 30 people, mostly fellows and some of the junior deans and the odd PhD student who did a masters. Never worked out what power it granted you beyond seats at commencement ceremonies.

The MA is a way of separating yourself from those whose loyalties lie elsewhere (i.e. graduates of places like UCD who work in Trinity but sign up to the UCD old boy/girl network and not the Trinity one).

kicom

claire h wrote: »

Oh, less of this nonsense, please - now justifying the MA fee as a way for noble Trinity-loving graduates to 'support the College'? Just because something is 'tradition' doesn't mean it's unquestionable.

I never even mentioned the word. This institution has a history of excellence and of being at the cutting edge of modern thinking. Seeing as I'm obsessed with "tradition", there's one tradition we ought to keep: that of excellence and attracting/retaining the best minds.

claire h wrote: »

Why does no one ever spouting on about 'tradition' in Trinity realise that actually things haven't stayed exactly the same since 1592, that successive generations have actually updated certain aspects of how the college works, not always to everyone's pleasure either, and that actually it might be possible that there are some elements of college life that - gasp! - can and should be questioned and debated as to their use today.

Oxford is a very different place to 800 years ago. As is Cambridge (hell, they even have a huge industry-academic alliance going on at the moment). Dublin is no different. But we must not allow the current incumbents to play roulette with the institution's reputation - that takes generations to build up. Renegades get to retire and suckle from the College pension fund even if they cock up. Therefore, we need Fellowship and Scholarship to safeguard against these types of people with wild ideas (who are often educated outside the railings).

shay_562

kicom wrote: »

The MA is the highest ranking master's degree awarded by the UofD.

I'm sorry, but you can't genuinely believe that. The MA that I earn automatically by having done my undergrad in Trinity outranks the MSc I'm in the process of getting as a follow-on from that undergrad? Yeah, deadly - tell that to any employer ever and see how you get on. Hell, I'll ask my professors tomorrow what they reckon - I'd say they'll get a good laugh out of it.

Podge_irl

goingnowhere wrote: »

Holders of an MA do however, if resident in a constituent College of the University of Dublin (Trinity) become members of the body corporate of the University of Dublin as they are Masters or Doctors of the University

Now that is a really exclusive group of less than 30 people, mostly fellows and some of the junior deans and the odd PhD student who did a masters. Never worked out what power it granted you beyond seats at commencement ceremonies.

The body corporate is far larger than 30 people. For one, it has all 70 foundation scholars on it.

I'm sorry, but you can't genuinely believe that.

I presume he means in a purely academic stance. I haven't seen the one for Dublin, but there is actually a ranking of every degree given by the university. It's for some kind of seniority reasons, though in reality it means nothing.

goingnowhere

The body corporate of Trinity College Dublin consists of 70 scholars (the foundation scholars) the fellows and the provost

The body corporate of The University of Dublin consists of the Chancellors and all Masters and Doctors of the University who reside in a constituent College.

Its a legal quagmire as to what is what and where but thats how it stands. Having an MA doesn't get you entry to the body corporate of Trinity unless you are also a fellow or scholar or the provost but you were a member anyways if that was the case.

If you hold a MA or other masters or doctorate and live on the campus you are on the body corporate of The University. Think about it, thats a very very small number, add up resident fellows with a Masters or Doctorate from University of Dublin (nearly all of them but few reside), add in any resident postgrads with a Masters from the University of Dublin.

sjfsjf

3 pages of debate and still not even a hint of consensus.
Maybe there is a better question to ask...
Is there a boards.ie reader with the MA, and do you think it has helped you outside of TCD? (I am thinking in terms of getting jobs, funding, etc).

cruizer101

Maybe I should have started new thread feel free to move if you like this one seems more a debate of the merits, and is a bit old. Anyone know how I go about getting this MA, who is the appropriate people to contact in Trinity.

goingnowhere

Go to proctors office, Regents House.

Ask for the form
Complete form, picking a graduation date
Hand over €637

Thats it, no red tape, no interview, in fact once you fill in the form its done.

Ankerous

I took the MA last weekend. Great banter.

There were about 40 or 50 MAs in total. Great money-spinner for the College. Although, I think if they piled 'em high and sold 'em cheap -- Ryanair-style -- there'd be more profit.

Watch out though: the university outfitters (Armstrong & Oxford) tried to fob me off with a bachelor's gown from Queens, Belfast. I honestly believe they don't know what they're doing.

cruizer101

To be honest I wasn't planning going to the ceremony, I heard you could just get it sent out to you. I've no interest in the graduation ceremony again, just want the qualification as might well be going into teaching and it means I can get a bit more.

Ankerous

cruizer101 wrote: »

To be honest I wasn't planning going to the ceremony, I heard you could just get it sent out to you. I've no interest in the graduation ceremony again, just want the qualification as might well be going into teaching and it means I can get a bit more.

€5k extra a year... Lol. Good luck with that.

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

goingnowhere

Ankerous wrote: »

€5k extra a year... Lol. Good luck with that.

http://www.tui.ie/Salary_Scales/Default.286.html

Not really

1. (a) (i) H. Dip in Ed. (Pass) €591
(ii) Higher Froebel Cert. €591
(b) (i) H. Dip in Ed. (1st or 2nd Hons) €1,236
(ii) Árd Teastas Gaeilge €1,236
(c) Primary Degree (Pass) €1,842
(d) Masters Degree by thesis
or exam (Pass) €4,918
(e) Primary Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €4,918
(f) Masters Degree (1st or 2nd Hons) €5,496
(g) Doctors Degree €6,140

The MA is an ordinary degree, so if you have a first or 2.1 in your primary degree its worth nothing extra

gym_mom

Reviving this very interesting debate with a simple question.

For someone with an ordinary batchelors degree from Trinity which is ranked at level 7 on the NFQ
http://www.nfq.ie/nfq/en/FanDiagram/nqai_nfq_08.html

If I were to get the MA qualification now that Im more than 10 years finished the BA - does this push me up to level 9 on the NFQ without lifting a pen ? Because if so it's SO worth doing.

Bartron Prime

No it more than likely wouldn't as the MA lacks any of the other prerequisites for a qualification on the framework such as ECTS and Learning Outcomes. Also, in general the progression route is Level 7 -> Level 8 -> Level 9. There can be Level 7 -> Level 9 progression in certain programmes but, again, this MA wouldn't have that established as it has no descriptors/formal status.

To all intents and purposes, it's a 'shell' qualification that doesn't really belong on the framework at all. It won't benefit progression either as a transcript couldn't be obtained for it (as it has no content or formal award). Its only significance seems to be an internal, symbolic one.

I'm in the 'it would, technically, but not really' boat.

Although not related I do know you won't get a grant for a Level 9 qualification if you have bought your MA.

gym_mom

Bartron Prime wrote: »

No it more than likely wouldn't as the MA lacks any of the other prerequisites for a qualification on the framework such as ECTS and Learning Outcomes. Also, in general the progression route is Level 7 -> Level 8 -> Level 9. There can be Level 7 -> Level 9 progression in certain programmes but, again, this MA wouldn't have that established as it has no descriptors/formal status.

To all intents and purposes, it's a 'shell' qualification that doesn't really belong on the framework at all. It won't benefit progression either as a transcript couldn't be obtained for it (as it has no content or formal award). Its only significance seems to be an internal, symbolic one.

But surely since it's awarded by Dublin University it has the same official recogniton as any other MA. If not, why call it an MA at all. When you think about it, if you weigh up the beneifts of studying for one more year after your degree vs working in the real world for 3 years I think I know which student I would rate higher.

Bartron Prime

gym_mom wrote: »

But surely since it's awarded by Dublin University it has the same official recogniton as any other MA. If not, why call it an MA at all. When you think about it, if you weigh up the beneifts of studying for one more year after your degree vs working in the real world for 3 years I think I know which student I would rate higher.

Because, put simply, that's not how the NFQ works. Yes, universities have the right to make their own awards, but they need to satisfy a number of minimums in order to be placed on the NFQ. The 'Trinity' MA is an historical thing of no intrinsic value (as I said, you can't get a transcript or Diploma Supplement for it, so it's not on the NFQ). 'Recognition' is not automatic simply by virtue of it being a DU award; DU can award qualifications on the NFQ providing they're valid; this MA wouldn't meet those.

Ah, but you can have your time working in 'the real world' recognised by the NFQ. It's called Recognition of Prior Learning (RPL). If you were applying to a course that is in someway aligned to skills you already have, you may find you can bypass certain entry requirements/modules in the course. In some cases, RPL can see you awarded a Minor/Special Purpose Award (an up to 30 credit certificate recognising a particular learning outcome). Now, alas the ability to do this is nowhere near as prevalent as it should be, but it's getting there

gym_mom

Interesting... I've wondered for year whether or not to bother getting it. Think it may be more of an embarrassment than anything to use it on a cv. I know if I were interviewing someone and they had it I would be less than impressed !!

Think I'll go for the post-grad diploma instead...