Best and worst Taoisigh

trapsagenius

Not sure if this should go here or in the politics forum but I'll put it here.Who in your opinion(s) were the best and worst Taoisigh in Ireland?

IMO, the best was Lemass.He turned Ireland from a underdeveloped backwater to a successful, sustainable (for a while at least) economy.He was the 1st Taoiseach to start building proper links with NI and given the contrast between Ireland in the 1950s and the Ireland Lemass built, his achievements seem even more remarkable.

And the worst?Has to be Garret Fitzgerald.He took a poor economy and made it much worse.His insane economic policies nearly bankrupted the country(crippling tax rates, unwillingness to cut public spending until it was almost too late etc).He gets an awful lot of credit in some quarters for the Anglo-Irish Agreement being a step towards the peace process, but I think this is nonsense.The agreement completely ignored and tried to sideline the hardline factions in NI(which was nonsense if you were pushing for peace) and was badly received by both communities, lest we forget.I think the agreement probably prolonged the troubles for a few years because it strengthened unionists resolve and was just grist to people like Paisleys mill.

Anyway, what do you think?

Gingy

I would agree with you that Lemass was the best Taoiseach we ever had. But he had was also lucky that the world economy rose during his reign.
Personality wise, I also liked Jack Lynch and Bertie (In the early years)

On the other side, Haughey was a crook and Cosgrave was a crank. I think that you're being a bit critical on Garret, I see what you're saying about the Anglo-Irish agreement halting the peace-process, but I don't agree with you. We could be thankful of it in a few years!

trapsagenius

Gingy wrote: »

I would agree with you that Lemass was the best Taoiseach we ever had. But he had was also lucky that the world economy rose during his reign.
Personality wise, I also liked Jack Lynch and Bertie (In the early years)

On the other side, Haughey was a crook and Cosgrave was a crank. I think that you're being a bit critical on Garret, I see what you're saying about the Anglo-Irish agreement halting the peace-process, but I don't agree with you. We could be thankful of it in a few years!

I think the main thing we learned from the Anglo-Irish Agreement is how NOT to deal with NI.Trying to "sideline" the hardliners is foolish and simply doesn't work if you are pushing for peace. Also the Irish government should be sure before making an agreement that the unionists are on board(which Garret didn't bother doing).

With regards Lynch-I wasn't alive with him as Taoiseach but I'd say I would have liked him if I had been.That said, his manifesto in 1977 was economic suicide and I'm still not sure if he stitched up his ministers during the Arms Trial.Agree with you about Cosgrave and Haughey. But while Haughey was a complete criminal he did a lot for the country between 1987 and 1989, no?(Obviously this doesn't excuse his actions).

paddyland

trapsagenius wrote: »

Not sure if this should go here or in the politics forum but I'll put it here.Who in your opinion(s) were the best and worst Taoisigh in Ireland?

IMO, the best was Lemass.He turned Ireland from a underdeveloped backwater to a successful, sustainable (for a while at least) economy.He was the 1st Taoiseach to start building proper links with NI and given the contrast between Ireland in the 1950s and the Ireland Lemass built, his achievements seem even more remarkable.

And the worst?Has to be Garret Fitzgerald.He took a poor economy and made it much worse.His insane economic policies nearly bankrupted the country(crippling tax rates, unwillingness to cut public spending until it was almost too late etc).He gets an awful lot of credit in some quarters for the Anglo-Irish Agreement being a step towards the peace process, but I think this is nonsense.The agreement completely ignored and tried to sideline the hardline factions in NI(which was nonsense if you were pushing for peace) and was badly received by both communities, lest we forget.I think the agreement probably prolonged the troubles for a few years because it strengthened unionists resolve and was just grist to people like Paisleys mill.

Anyway, what do you think?

As a man for his time, Lemass, yes, his contributions to Irish society certainly stack up well. I would probably name him best too, the first and last decent leader FF ever gave the country.

As for Garret, love him or loathe him, the history books will most categorically place Bertie Ahern as the worst Taoiseach ever by a long country mile. No amount of finger pointing at anyone else will disguise or distract from that.

We had a lot of poor leaders, from all sides, who had varying levels of contribution, but nobody else who contributed NOTHING to Irish society only to drive it hard onto the rocks, and hand a whole generation of politics over to people whose own career aspirations were the beginning and end of their interest in the country. We are left with an entire FF front bench for whom Bertie was their political model, and who will rail against anyone who tries to bring ethics and vision back into politics, for many years to come.

That is fact, and the history books will hang that on Bertie's shameless head.

trapsagenius

paddyland wrote: »

As a man for his time, Lemass, yes, his contributions to Irish society certainly stack up well. I would probably name him best too, the first and last decent leader FF ever gave the country.

As for Garret, love him or loathe him, the history books will most categorically place Bertie Ahern as the worst Taoiseach ever by a long country mile. No amount of finger pointing at anyone else will disguise or distract from that.

We had a lot of poor leaders, from all sides, who had varying levels of contribution, but nobody else who contributed NOTHING to Irish society only to drive it hard onto the rocks, and hand a whole generation of politics over to people whose own career aspirations were the beginning and end of their interest in the country. We are left with an entire FF front bench for whom Bertie was their political model, and who will rail against anyone who tries to bring ethics and vision back into politics, for many years to come.

That is fact, and the history books will hang that on Bertie's shameless head.

Bit harsh on Bertie.You're conveniently leaving out all the great work he did in NI, as well as the economic growth during his tenure, especially from 1997 to 2002.So he had some accomplishments.Fitzgerald had ZERO accomplishments.He did more damage to the country as Taoiseach than anyone else, imo.He was a complete disaster from start to finish.

Gingy

paddyland wrote: »

As a man for his time, Lemass, yes, his contributions to Irish society certainly stack up well. I would probably name him best too, the first and last decent leader FF ever gave the country.

As for Garret, love him or loathe him, the history books will most categorically place Bertie Ahern as the worst Taoiseach ever by a long country mile. No amount of finger pointing at anyone else will disguise or distract from that.

We had a lot of poor leaders, from all sides, who had varying levels of contribution, but nobody else who contributed NOTHING to Irish society only to drive it hard onto the rocks, and hand a whole generation of politics over to people whose own career aspirations were the beginning and end of their interest in the country. We are left with an entire FF front bench for whom Bertie was their political model, and who will rail against anyone who tries to bring ethics and vision back into politics, for many years to come.

That is fact, and the history books will hang that on Bertie's shameless head.

I agree with trapsagenius, I reckon Bertie will be well received in the History books, his work in Northern Ireland and sure he raised the Celtic Tiger on his lap! It will show that Ireland didn't enter recession until after Bertie left office and his own personal problems will merely be a footnote. As for poor old Brian Cowen....

hinault

Regarding, Garret Fitzgerald.
Fine Gael inherited a massive budget/fscal deficit in 1981 following 1977 FF Martin O Donoghue budget which crippled this country for the best part of a generation.

Fitzgerald helped pave the way for the Anglo Irish agreement giving this country a say in the affairs of North Ireland and the opening of an office at Hillsborough.
Fitzgerald goverment also legislated a lot of socially progressive legislation too.


The two worst Taiosigh have been Haughey and his spawn Ahern.

Haughey was proven to be a crook/tax avoider.
He was the first FF Taoiseach to have to enter coalition.
His first govt managed to get itself entangled with a convicted murders (McArthur).
The list of scandals and issues that his govt were involved in, is long.


Ahern.
His govts economic policies have created an even greater budgetary/fiscal deficit than the Lynch govt 1977-1981.
Leaving this country in the situation that we now find ourselves

paddyland

trapsagenius wrote: »

Bit harsh on Bertie.You're conveniently leaving out all the great work he did in NI, as well as the economic growth during his tenure, especially from 1997 to 2002.So he had some accomplishments.Fitzgerald had ZERO accomplishments.He did more damage to the country as Taoiseach than anyone else, imo.He was a complete disaster from start to finish.

No, I'm deliberately leaving out anything Bertie did in NI. What he achieved there was handed to him on a plate by years of groundwork by others. And any mediation skills he might have displayed there in NO way make up for the subversion of his own state that was going on all the while, by him, and the crooks and scoundrels he promoted.

The 'economic growth' of 1997 to 2002 was the genesis of a catastrophic boom and bust that was made grotesquely worse by every single policy of Bertie and his governments. They could not have been more reckless, not just with the economy, but with people's livelihoods. Everything Bertie stood for was either cronyism, or cute hoorism, or downright crookedness, all sown up neatly by spin and lies, to the point where there wasn't a single thread of credibility in politics for that whole generation.

Bertie's policies RUINED people, and now that he is gone, he leaves behind a new generation of politics twisted and skewed by the obscene model he created. It could have been so, so different.

trapsagenius

hinault wrote: »

Regarding, Garret Fitzgerald.
Fine Gael inherited a massive budget/fscal deficit in 1981 following 1977 FF Martin O Donoghue budget which crippled this country for the best part of a generation.

Fitzgerald helped pave the way for the Anglo Irish agreement giving this country a say in the affairs of North Ireland and the opening of an office at Hillsborough.
Fitzgerald goverment also legislated a lot of socially progressive legislation too.


The two worst Taiosigh have been Haughey and his spawn Ahern.

Haughey was proven to be a crook/tax avoider.
He was the first FF Taoiseach to have to enter coalition.
His first govt managed to get itself entangled with a convicted murders (McArthur).
The list of scandals and issues that his govt were involved in, is long.

Ahern.
His govts economic policies have created an even greater budgetary/fiscal deficit than the Lynch govt 1977-1981.
Leaving this country in the situation that we now find ourselves

Yes Fitzgerald inherited a deficit-but he did absolutly nothing to try to get to grips with it.And as far as I can see all the Anglo-Irish agreement did was prolong the troubles for a few years and show the British and Irish governments how NOT to come to an agreement.

As for Haughey, yes he was a crook, but as I stated earlier he helped the country out of a tight hole in 1987(again, I will admit his first 2 administrations were disastrous).As for going into coalition-that doesn't really reflect poorly on him as Taoiseach does it? And the Macarthur incident just seems to have been a freak occurence so saying that he "managed to entangle himself with murderers" is a bit harsh.While I'm not a Haughey apologist, and realise the man should never have been put in a position of power, I don't think he was the worst Taoiseach.

And again you're ignoring the work Bertie did on NI, which was superb.

paddyland wrote: »

No, I'm deliberately leaving out anything Bertie did in NI. What he achieved there was handed to him on a plate by years of groundwork by others. And any mediation skills he might have displayed there in NO way make up for the subversion of his own state that was going on all the while, by him, and the crooks and scoundrels he promoted.

The 'economic growth' of 1997 to 2002 was the genesis of a catastrophic boom and bust that was made grotesquely worse by every single policy of Bertie and his governments. They could not have been more reckless, not just with the economy, but with people's livelihoods. Everything Bertie stood for was either cronyism, or cute hoorism, or downright crookedness, all sown up neatly by spin and lies, to the point where there wasn't a single thread of credibility in politics for that whole generation.

Bertie's policies RUINED people, and now that he is gone, he leaves behind a new generation of politics twisted and skewed by the obscene model he created. It could have been so, so different.

Well if you're "deliberately" leaving out an aspect of his government, you're not looking at all the facts and therefore are not in a position to judge.And saying that what he did was "handed to him on a plate" is complete nonsense.Do you not realise the amount of damage Bruton did to the Peace process?HE had it handed on a plate to him by Reynolds and he still managed to fvck it up.NI was Bertie's greatest achievement.Managing to get even hardliners such as Paisley on board only underlines this.

And I also disagree with you that the economic growth from 1997 to 2002 was based on a "boom and bust" sequence.While it could be argued that the later years of economic growth were, the first 5 years of growth under Ahern were based on an export based economy.

Zebra3

What about all the taoisigh who turned a blind eye to the rapists and torturers of the Catholic church attacks on kids?

Does that not stand against any of them? :rolleyes:

fontanalis

Zebra3 wrote: »

What about all the taoisigh who turned a blind eye to the rapists and torturers of the Catholic church attacks on kids?

Does that not stand against any of them? :rolleyes:

Couldn't that apply to society as a whole? Probably having the church in that position is what should be levelled against leaders.

trapsagenius

Zebra3 wrote: »

What about all the taoisigh who turned a blind eye to the rapists and torturers of the Catholic church attacks on kids?

Does that not stand against any of them? :rolleyes:

I could ignore this quote because it is so ridiculous but I won't.Wasn't the abuses that took place a matter for the church and the police?It had nothing to do with the Taoisigh of the country.I'd say most of them didn't even know so it was hardly turning a "blind eye".And as the previous poster said, why aren't you blaming society as a whole?

pirelli

Gingy wrote: »

I agree with trapsagenius, I reckon Bertie will be well received in the History books, his work in Northern Ireland and sure he raised the Celtic Tiger on his lap! It will show that Ireland didn't enter recession until after Bertie left office and his own personal problems will merely be a footnote. As for poor old Brian Cowen....

You could also say Bush was a good president as his term in office saw the american economy flourish. George Bush also went to Northern ireland and this was recorded as a symbolic touch down and was well recieved in which he put his seal of approval on devolution in northern ireland.

On those points George Bush must rank highly in your historical records.

As for poor old Barack Obama ...

hinault

trapsagenius wrote: »

And again you're ignoring the work Bertie did on NI, which was superb.

Seems that peace campaigners like Bertie, hold little or no interest to the general public.
Or at least the British public.

Berties autobiography book sales have scaled the pinnacle 15,000 copies in the UK.

paddyland

trapsagenius wrote: »

Well if you're "deliberately" leaving out an aspect of his government, you're not looking at all the facts and therefore are not in a position to judge.And saying that what he did was "handed to him on a plate" is complete nonsense.Do you not realise the amount of damage Bruton did to the Peace process?HE had it handed on a plate to him by Reynolds and he still managed to fvck it up.NI was Bertie's greatest achievement.Managing to get even hardliners such as Paisley on board only underlines this.

And I also disagree with you that the economic growth from 1997 to 2002 was based on a "boom and bust" sequence.While it could be argued that the later years of economic growth were, the first 5 years of growth under Ahern were based on an export based economy.

Export based economy? Where is the export based economy now? Under whose watch was it flittered away? Bertie Ahern had a sound, sustainable country with fabulous prospects for being a model nation for the world. He buggered it and then flushed it down the toilet, like a child with a shiny new balloon, who bursts it to see what happens.

I don't rate Bertie's self aggrandised 'achievements' in the North. He did his bit, but there were other more crucial people than he. So I discount them. If a cheater and swindler helped old ladies cross the road on Friday afternoons, it wouldn't make me like him very much more.

Gingy

pirelli wrote: »

You could also say Bush was a good president as his term in office saw the american economy flourish. George Bush also went to Northern ireland and this was recorded as a symbolic touch down and was well recieved in which he put his seal of approval on devolution in northern ireland.

On those points George Bush must rank highly in your historical records.

As for poor old Barack Obama ...

That's not a measured comparison. Bertie Ahern never brought this country into a war that was none of our business. Taking that aside, which is difficult because it's such a major issue, George Bush's Presidency wouldn't have been so tarnished.

Bertie must have done something right, considering he won 3 general elections! I'm not saying that everything he did was great, but in my opinion calling him one of the worst Taoisigh we've ever had is a bit much.

Zebra3

trapsagenius wrote: »

I could ignore this quote because it is so ridiculous but I won't.Wasn't the abuses that took place a matter for the church and the police?It had nothing to do with the Taoisigh of the country.I'd say most of them didn't even know so it was hardly turning a "blind eye".And as the previous poster said, why aren't you blaming society as a whole?

Society "as a whole" was to blame, but the Taoiseach is the leader of the country and is in a position to invoke change.

Taoisigh knew as well as anyone else what was going, but they had the power to do something about it.

That cannot be ignored.

trapsagenius

pirelli wrote: »

You could also say Bush was a good president as his term in office saw the american economy flourish. George Bush also went to Northern ireland and this was recorded as a symbolic touch down and was well recieved in which he put his seal of approval on devolution in northern ireland.

On those points George Bush must rank highly in your historical records.

As for poor old Barack Obama ...

Thats BS. Bertie never lead Ireland into a pointless war.NI was (still is?) a massive issue in Ireland but it is a nothing issue in the US.NI was not a big concern of Bush's or the USA's so why should he receive credit for it?It was a huge issue in Ireland so that's why Bertie receives credit.

hinault wrote: »

Seems that peace campaigners like Bertie, hold little or no interest to the general public.
Or at least the British public.

Berties autobiography book sales have scaled the pinnacle 15,000 copies in the UK.

Well if his book didn't sell well he can't possibly have been a good Taoiseach can he:rolleyes:?

paddyland wrote: »

Export based economy? Where is the export based economy now? Under whose watch was it flittered away? Bertie Ahern had a sound, sustainable country with fabulous prospects for being a model nation for the world. He buggered it and then flushed it down the toilet, like a child with a shiny new balloon, who bursts it to see what happens.

I don't rate Bertie's self aggrandised 'achievements' in the North. He did his bit, but there were other more crucial people than he. So I discount them. If a cheater and swindler helped old ladies cross the road on Friday afternoons, it wouldn't make me like him very much more.

I never said there is an export based economy now-I said there was one between 1997 to 2002.Who's fault in is that we're in the state we're in now is debatable-for example there's a whole thread on the public's role in it here -
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055830190.
I, personally, don't think Bertie deserves all the blame for the state we're in now.

And why don't you rate Bertie's achievements in NI?You mightn't like the man but surely you can give credit where it's due.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Society "as a whole" was to blame, but the Taoiseach is the leader of the country and is in a position to invoke change.

Taoisigh knew as well as anyone else what was going, but they had the power to do something about it.

That cannot be ignored.

Stop embarrassing yourself.Can you give proof that the Taoisigh knew what was going on?And wasn't it a matter for the police and church rather than the head of government?

And even supposing that you're completely right and the Taoisigh did know-surely if they all knew what was going on it would count against all of them and so therefore can be discounted?

Morlar

The best De Valera for guiding the state through it's early years.
The worst Haughey (for his financial rape of Ireland).

There is a lot about de Valera I disagree with but on balance he would be the best in the history of the state.

trapsagenius

Morlar wrote: »

The best De Valera for guiding the state through it's early years.
The worst Haughey (for his financial rape of Ireland).

There is a lot about de Valera I disagree with but on balance he would be the best in the history of the state.

I can see where you're coming from with Dev-he was a fantastic Taoiseach.Turning the country into a republic in "all but name", the constitution, successfully leading Ireland through WW2 were all magnificent achievements.He gets some criticism for his protectionism policies but people forget that this was only a few years since the wall street crash and was an accepted practice in the 1930s.And while some so-called historians such as TP Coogan have criticised him heavily in recent years I'm pleased to see that most historians have come around and seen him for what a great Taoiseach he was.So yes, Dev is certainly up there with the best of them.

As for Haughey however, I don't think he financially raped the country.While he contributed, the majority of the blame has to fall on Garret Fitzgerald.And the administration he lead from 1987 to 1989 was one of the best in recent years.He helped turn the country around when it was essentially on the verge of bankruptcy.

Zebra3

[QUOTE=trapsagenius;64546266
Stop embarrassing yourself.[/QUOTE]

Don't worry, I'm not.

trapsagenius wrote: »

Can you give proof that the Taoisigh knew what was going on?And wasn't it a matter for the police and church rather than the head of government?

If they didn't know they should have. They were running the country ffs.

trapsagenius wrote: »

And even supposing that you're completely right and the Taoisigh did know-surely if they all knew what was going on it would count against all of them and so therefore can be discounted?

Where do you start with a comment like that? :rolleyes:

And for Dev's supporters, don't forget about his corruption with the Irish Press...

Amtmann

What about DeValera's economic war and his Luddite tendencies. His constitution, although impeccable in many ways, was very conservative given its ostentatious religious references, which did contribute to the Republic's being perceived as a papal vassal.

Morlar

Furet wrote: »

What about DeValera's economic war and his Luddite tendencies. His constitution, although impeccable in many ways, was very conservative given its ostentatious religious references

Which luddite tendencies were those ?

Conservative constitution ? What exactly were you expecting from a catholic leader in a catholic country free for the first time to write it's own constitution after centuries of religious persecution of the catholic faith. I think in the context of that time it's pretty exemplary. Looking at it now from a 21st century free and liberal point of view it's easy to criticise but in context it is perfectly fine in my view.

Guell72

Worst is Clowen .. And he's not even finished yet.

Amtmann

Morlar wrote: »

Which luddite tendencies were those ?

He did advocate a frugal, pastoral society. He certainly wasn't to the fore on modernisation.

Conservative constitution ? What exactly were you expecting from a catholic leader in a catholic country free for the first time to write it's own constitution after centuries of religious persecution of the catholic faith. I think in the context of that time it's pretty exemplary. Looking at it now from a 21st century free and liberal point of view it's easy to criticise but in context it is perfectly fine in my view.

I did acknowledge its impressive democratic credentials, so yes, kudos must go to him for that. I think I'll stand over the rest though. As a republican there was no ideological need for him to include overtly religious references in the text. Looking back from a 21st-century perspective one can see that this is where the unhealthy bond between church and state set in. Yes, fine, you can argue that the constitution was of its time; but you could, actually, equally argue that as a statesman active in an ideologically-driven period there was no imperative for him to wed the state so closely to Catholicism. If he was a great Taoiseach, in my view, he would instead have written a wholly republican text that separated church and state more clearly. This should have been quite clear to him given the religious tensions on the island. It is not anachronistic to say he could have done that.

I don't think he was the worst Taoiseach ever though.

Morlar

Furet wrote: »

He did advocate a frugal, pastoral society. He certainly wasn't to the fore on modernisation.

You can call it frugal and pastoral - I'd call it promoting agricultural & economic self sufficiency. Not as trendy in the post EU Ireland of today.

Furet wrote: »

Looking back from a 21st-century perspective one can see that this is where the unhealthy bond between church and state set in.

It is really only in recent decades that the bond between church and state was considered to have been an 'unhealthy bond', at that time it was not widely considered unhealthy except in the margins of society. Yes there were protestants in the republic who'd have preferred less religious overtone but the constitution was not anti-protestant at all.

Furet wrote: »

If he was a great Taoiseach, in my view, he would instead have written a wholly republican text that separated church and state more clearly.

Being more republican and less religious is not a factor in rating a Taoiseach.

Furet wrote: »

This should have been quite clear to him given the religious tensions on the island.

There were religious tensions on the island with catholics in the north bearing the brunt. Writing a non catholic, secular constitution would not necessarily have been their choice. Besides had he done that the unionists would have shifted from crying 'papists' to crying something else. Religious tensions would still have exsisted. He did not create or exacerbate them in my view.

Amtmann

Morlar wrote: »

You can call it frugal and pastoral

He certainly called it that himself, in fact referring to 'frugal comfort' and 'fields and meadows' and lauding those things as national ideals.

Not as trendy in the post EU Ireland of today.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. But 'modernisation' as a concept isn't something projected backward from now to the 1930s and 40s. Other countries - democracies too - were bent on building dams, power stations and motorway networks at this time.

It is really only in recent decades that the bond between church and state was considered to have been an 'unhealthy bond', at thattime it was not widely considered unhealthy except in the margins of society.

Yet clearly important elements of it were unhealthy - as recent reports have shown. This is not retrospective history; abuses were happening during Dev's tenure and they would have been considered wrong then too, even by the standards of the day.

Being more republican and less religious is not a factor in rating a Taoiseach.

We differ there. Dev could have been as religious a man as he liked. But as a political republican I think he could have kept his constitution purely republican. This would not have been a shocking thing for him to have done - surprising, yes, but not shocking. Had he done so, the people would have backed him. Catholicism and the ideals of Irish republicanism were conflated in the document and I think that has been to the detriment of the country. It was not impossible for Dev to have anticipated this; and the fact that he didn't anticipate it - or, that he did anticipate it and ignored it anyway - detracts from his achievements in my view and discounts him from being a great Taoiseach.

There were religious tensions on the island with catholics in the north bearing the brunt. Writing a non catholic, secular constitution would not necessarily have been their choice. Besides had he done that the unionists would have shifted from crying 'papists' to crying something else. Religious tensions would still have exsisted. He did not create or exacerbate them in my view.

Well, I think one of the unionist arguments against Home Rule was that it would lead to Rome Rule. And sure enough, it did. Reasons: One, by excluding themselves the unionists basically barred themselves from contribution, so their prophesy became self-fulfilling. Two, Dev set a precedent in the Bunreacht that he did not have to set. He definitely didn't create religious tensions (they were there already as everyone knows), but I do think he steered the 26 counties down a path that resulted in a thoroughly insoluble schism with all things northern, and I think it didn't necessarily have to reach that point. The constitution - among several other things - contributed to this.

And there I shall leave it. A pleasure, morlar.

trapsagenius

Two things-I wouldn't really characterise Dev as "luddite"-as Morlar says, he was a man of his time and lets not forget he set up cpmpanies like Aer Lingus and the Sugar Factory.

Secondly, about the constitution, it was well ahead of his time.Dev, while perhaps giving too much power to the Catholic Church, resisted the temptation to discriminate against protestants like the protestants were doing to catholics in NI-lets not forget that Douglas Hyde, a protestant, was our first President.Also about the constitution-look at when it was written.1937.This was when dictators like Mussolini, Franco and Hitler were in power in Europe and Dev was still able to write a constitution that firmly entrenched Ireland in democracy and is still applicable (in the most part) to 21st century Ireland.

fontanalis

trapsagenius wrote: »

Two things-I wouldn't really characterise Dev as "luddite"-as Morlar says, he was a man of his time and lets not forget he set up cpmpanies like Aer Lingus and the Sugar Factory.

Secondly, about the constitution, it was well ahead of his time.Dev, while perhaps giving too much power to the Catholic Church, resisted the temptation to discriminate against protestants like the protestants were doing to catholics in NI-lets not forget that Douglas Hyde, a protestant, was our first President.Also about the constitution-look at when it was written.1937.This was when dictators like Mussolini, Franco and Hitler were in power in Europe and Dev was still able to write a constitution that firmly entrenched Ireland in democracy and is still applicable (in the most part) to 21st century Ireland.

The bloody pre-amble is diddly dee us irish are great catlicks and god loves us, bloody embarassing.

rugbyman

I agree with the praise of lemass.

jack lynch seems to have been a Gent

I admire Garret Fitzgerald greatly. prob the finest person to hold the position.
these are my opinions, no back up available, just observations

regards Rugbyman

Lord ButterSlip

Zebra3 wrote: »

What about all the taoisigh who turned a blind eye to the rapists and torturers of the Catholic church attacks on kids?

Does that not stand against any of them? :rolleyes:

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don't worry, I'm not. :rolleyes:

You are.

freewheeler

Unfortunately haven't had much experience of what could be called the 'best' but no contest for the three worst...Haughey...Ahern...Cowen probably in that order...a poor reflection on us as a society that the likes of them could attain such a position IMO...:(

Zebra3

Lord ButterSlip wrote: »

You are.

Please refrain from posting lies about me.

I am entitled to my opinion and not embarrassed about it. You don't know me and have no right to attack me like that.

Lord ButterSlip

Zebra3 wrote: »

Please refrain from posting lies about me.

I am entitled to my opinion and not embarrassed about it. You don't know me and have no right to attack me like that.

Yes you are. So no "lies", you will have to think up of something else to be paranoid about.

As for your opinion Im not contesting your right to have one, I am informing you that the one you are voicing makes you look stupid. And I am quite glad that I do not know you as this verbal "attack", as you put it, would be nothing in comparison to what I would say to you if you said the above things out on the street for example. In conclusion saying something stupid and then putting :rolleyes: after it does not make you look intelligent.

dermo88

In terms of administration.

Best Taoiseach, I'd go with Sean Lemass. DeValera second, but I give that grudgingly, I'm hardly a fan of DeValera.

There was a joke made by Niall Toibin which summed up three Taoisaigh we have had.

"Garrett cannot lie, Charlie cannot tell the truth and Bertie does not know the difference.

Worst, possibly John A Costello, a Bishops ringkisser if ever there was one.

Garrett Fitzgerald would rank as a good Taoiseach were it not for the economic mess he inherited, and also the maladministration was caused by being in bed with the Labour party, who could not make the difficult decisions required to restore economic stability.

Its too early to assess Brian Cowen, although hes not doing too well, and as for Haughey, he could have been the best had it not been for the venal corruption and greed that took place under his tenure.

trapsagenius

Lord ButterSlip wrote: »

You are.

Good post!Not addressing anyone in particular, but let's just say there was someone on this thread who was trying to appear intelligent about something they clearly know nothing about...I would recommend not responding to such a person.Of course this is purely hypothetical...;)

dermo88 wrote: »

In terms of administration.

Best Taoiseach, I'd go with Sean Lemass. DeValera second, but I give that grudgingly, I'm hardly a fan of DeValera.

There was a joke made by Niall Toibin which summed up three Taoisaigh we have had.

"Garrett cannot lie, Charlie cannot tell the truth and Bertie does not know the difference.

Worst, possibly John A Costello, a Bishops ringkisser if ever there was one.

Garrett Fitzgerald would rank as a good Taoiseach were it not for the economic mess he inherited, and also the maladministration was caused by being in bed with the Labour party, who could not make the difficult decisions required to restore economic stability.

Its too early to assess Brian Cowen, although hes not doing too well, and as for Haughey, he could have been the best had it not been for the venal corruption and greed that took place under his tenure.

Bit harsh on Costello-while I'm a fan of Dev, I think he had gone a small bit stale by 1948 and it was time for a change. Costello took over and made a fairly good hack of it-declaring the republic(ok, I'll admit this didn't really change anything and some would argue it copper-fastened partition but it was still the final step from the free state in the south) and he showed some initiative in things such as the IDA and his government did well in combating TB.I will admit his second administration was a joke.But I wouldn't say he was the worst.That mantle, as I have already stated, falls on Fitzgerald for his half-arsed attempts in dealing with the economic crisis and his misguided attitude to NI.

BTW, to all the people criticising Cowen-he can only be judged on how good or bad he was as Taoiseach when he is finished-not yet...

Lord ButterSlip

trapsagenius wrote: »

Good post!Not addressing anyone in particular, but let's just say there was someone on this thread who was trying to appear intelligent about something they clearly know nothing about...I would recommend not responding to such a person.Of course this is purely hypothetical...;)

Recommendation Noted! However I think as I dont know enough to comment on the over all topic I am content and quite happy to read only on this one (except for those hypothetical cases!).

walrusgumble

What would people think about Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

Was he a gombeen cut from the same suit as Haughey? Do people hate him for the way he was behind Haughey's shift? What do people make of the Night of the Long Knives when he sacked most of his 1st cabinet? His dealings with Labour?

Shouldn't he get kudos for the business like fashion in dealing with NI, for been willing to stand up to John Major when needed, truely helping the peace process by Publicly speaking to all members of the community in the North (remember Dermot Morgan's skint about about willing to talk to anyone - Unionist, Labour, Provisonal Licence holders etc)

Whilst one could not put him up as one of the top three Taoisigh, simply even for the small length of time he was around, how do people of Ireland regard him?

trapsagenius

walrusgumble wrote: »

What would people think about Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

Was he a gombeen cut from the same suit as Haughey? Do people hate him for the way he was behind Haughey's shift? What do people make of the Night of the Long Knives when he sacked most of his 1st cabinet? His dealings with Labour?

Shouldn't he get kudos for the business like fashion in dealing with NI, for been willing to stand up to John Major when needed, truely helping the peace process by Publicly speaking to all members of the community in the North (remember Dermot Morgan's skint about about willing to talk to anyone - Unionist, Labour, Provisonal Licence holders etc)

Whilst one could not put him up as one of the top three Taoisigh, simply even for the small length of time he was around, how do people of Ireland regard him?

I personally think Reynolds was probably the best Taoiseach in the last 25 years or so.

He can't possibly have known what kind of man Haughey was when he helped put him in-and lets not forget he himself tried to shaft Haughey in 1991.As for the sacking of the cabinet-while it was very unfair on certain ministers, it would have damaged FF more than it would have damaged the country.And given he was only in power for 2 and a half years even the damage to FF was fairly minimal.

Reynolds was brilliant with regards the peace process-he realised (like Haughey), that you have to deal with hardliners instead of trying to sideline them.He also inverted the conventional wisdom about the peace process in NI-before he came to power, people had thought you needed an agreement before peace.Reynolds realised that NI needed peace before an agreement-this prevented an event like Enniskillen occurring which could destroy the whole process.On the economic front, he also did no harm and was probably right to capitalise on the opportunity of going into government with Labour-he knew he couldn't work properly with the PDs.

But his contribution to the peace process will be his legacy.

dermo88

trapsagenius - I personally think Reynolds was probably the best Taoiseach in the last 25 years or so.

Albert Reynolds is often overlooked as a Taoiseach. In fairness to him, as politicians go, he was focused, businesslike and professional in the various Departments he managed as a minister. He saw problems with the country and cought to rectify them. Thanks to his business ties in the showband business and later food and meat, he was able to forge links across the political divide in Northern Ireland. While Ahern and Blair may take the credit for the peace process in Northern Ireland, it is often forgotten that the foundations were laid down by John Major and Albert Reynolds in the years beforehand.

In terms of personal integrity, hes probably the best Taoiseach around since Garrett Fitzgerald, and his administration was fairly competent, had it not been for the mess witn Harry Whelehan and the X case.

Its quite sad apparently that these days his memory is failing. He was'nt the worst of them, thats for sure.

walrusgumble

dermo88 wrote: »

trapsagenius - I personally think Reynolds was probably the best Taoiseach in the last 25 years or so.

Albert Reynolds is often overlooked as a Taoiseach. In fairness to him, as politicians go, he was focused, businesslike and professional in the various Departments he managed as a minister. He saw problems with the country and cought to rectify them. Thanks to his business ties in the showband business and later food and meat, he was able to forge links across the political divide in Northern Ireland. While Ahern and Blair may take the credit for the peace process in Northern Ireland, it is often forgotten that the foundations were laid down by John Major and Albert Reynolds in the years beforehand.

In terms of personal integrity, hes probably the best Taoiseach around since Garrett Fitzgerald, and his administration was fairly competent, had it not been for the mess witn Harry Whelehan and the X case.

Its quite sad apparently that these days his memory is failing. He was'nt the worst of them, thats for sure.

The annoying thing about the Whelean and fr Brendan Smith and x affair was a such (although important matters) small affairs brought him down considering the great risks with matters lie NI, eg personally meeting (in secret) members of both loyalist and republican communities. he seemed decent enough.

I read his book, don't know what to make of it considering his clear memories in the book v recent health and inability to act as witnesss in the tribunals, would like to see an indepdent book. According to people like Mammy O'Rourke, he came across badly during the cabinet resuffle.

Strange how Roscommon/Westemeath/Longford/Offaly have, in the past done well out of Ministerial representation (eg O'Rourke, Lenihan,Doherty, Reynolds, Parlon, Cowen, Cooney, [athlone itself could nearly claim brian junior as one of their own as he lived there for many years as a kid - same with dr noel browne])

did people in dublin dislike the whole country n western brigade stuff? i remeber other posts about al and the slaggings he got simply because he was a show band manager/promoter (a very successful one - not bad for a midlander with no uni experience) or his cat food business as oppose to the polished UCD member/barrister/economics/Dub like say Garreth or CJH?

Judgement Day

In my opinion Albert Reynolds was just as bad as Haughey/Bertie/Cowen etc. I seem to remember him being involved in the outrageous (but above board) sale of passports for investment in Irish business - one of which happened to be his own dog food company in Edgeworthstown.

Here it is. Don't you just love Google.

BreakingNews.ie > Ireland

Reynolds vows to try to save pet food factory jobs after blaze
Print Email+ Share+ 16/01/2006 - 18:53:26
Former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds tonight said his family would do everything they could to secure the 500 jobs at risk following a fire at a pet food factory in Longford.

But Mr Reynold’s son Philip, who now manages and owns C&D Pet Foods plant, said he could not promise the plant would be rebuilt without properly assessing the damage first.

The former Taoiseach said the blaze was a disaster for the area and the damage to the factory was far worse than originally believed.

Mr Reynold’s said there was no spare capacity for the factory’s work to be carried out by operations in the UK.

“We just don’t know. We have to try everything, and try everything we will and Philip I tell you is not interested in sleep. He is interested in doing whatever he can because there is such a loyal staff in the place,” Mr Reynolds said, adding the cannery section of the plant was totally destroyed in the fire on Sunday night.

The C&D Pet Foods plant was established by the former Taoiseach in Edgeworthstown more than 30 years ago and employs around 500 people.

Cathal Kelly, who has been working at the plant for 20 years, said this would affect the entire area as the factory is a major employer.

“The Reynolds family have been 35 years in the business, they won’t let something like that stop them,” he said. “It is just the time it will take.”

Mr Kelly said the company had major contracts with UK supermarket chains including Tesco, Asda and Sainsbury and jobs would go if the contracts were lost in the long-term.

Mr Kelly, who comes from Edgeworthstown, said: “It is a close-knit community, it will hit hard if it is as bad as reports are now.”

He added: “I’m 20 years in it and I’ve never been out of work. There’s always been overtime. The damage was done in an hour. It is hard to take - people who don’t even work in it were shocked. It will affect people in town who don’t even work in it,” the 36-year-old, who has two children aged two and four, said.

“It is as bad as when the Glanbia plant closed in (nearby) Rooskey, you never think it is going to happen on your own door.”

The 36-year-old said new multi-million euro factory building, which was constructed around five-years-ago was now a shell.

Mr Kelly, who was a supervisor in the chunks and gravy plant, said workers were gathering outside the factory all day in the hope of good news.

He said the plant was family-orientated – with around 350 local people working in it and around 150 non-nationals.

“Many young people who are married are working there, with young kids and mortgages. My brother works there we started together, my sister works there and her husband. There are 11 children between the three families,” he said.

Mr Reynolds said they were relieved no-one was killed in the fire on Sunday night as 33 workers were on duty but were all safely evacuated.

“What happened was bad enough and it is a disaster for the whole area, there is no question about it, when you think of up to 500 families you know, there are still a few there from the time it was opened first,” he told RTE Radio.

Fire officers and gardaí are working to identify how the blaze erupted. They are believed to be examining a cold room storage area in the factory as the possible site of the fire.

Longford County mayor Frank Kilbride said the damage to the factory was about the worst news possible for the town.

“It’s one of the biggest employers in the Midlands, let alone Edgeworthstown. It’s absolutely devastating and there is great concern in the town about this,” he said.

Willie Penrose, the Labour Party’s TD for Westmeath, said the knock-on effect of this for the local area will be extremely serious.

“At this point in time, we have lost the best part of 400-500 jobs. But certainly at the council, we’ll try to give them any assistance that we possibly can,” Mr Kilbride said.

Niall Philips, from SIPTU’s Longford branch, said there were no alternative jobs for workers in the area as it was only three years since the Glanbia bacon factory in Rooskey was also destroyed by fire with the loss of 350 jobs.

The factory hit the headlines in 1992 when it emerged that a Saudi businessman, Khalid al-Masri, had invested 1.1 million Irish pounds in it as part of the passports for investment scheme.

Mr Reynolds denied he had any knowledge of the investment.


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2006/0116/ireland/reynolds-vows-to-try-to-save-pet-food-factory-jobs-after-blaze-239937.html#ixzz0gITk8ZRW

walrusgumble

Judgement Day wrote: »

In my opinion Albert Reynolds was just as bad as Haughey/Bertie/Cowen etc. I seem to remember him being involved in the outrageous (but above board) sale of passports for investment in Irish business - one of which happened to be his own dog food company in Edgeworthstown.

Here it is. Don't you just love Google.

BreakingNews.ie > Ireland

Reynolds vows to try to save pet food factory jobs after blaze
Print Email+ Share+ 16/01/2006 - 18:53:26
Former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds tonight said his family would do everything they could to secure the 500 jobs at risk following a fire at a pet food factory in Longford.

But Mr Reynold’s son Philip, who now manages and owns C&D Pet Foods plant, said he could not promise the plant would be rebuilt without properly assessing the damage first.

The former Taoiseach said the blaze was a disaster for the area and the damage to the factory was far worse than originally believed.

Mr Reynold’s said there was no spare capacity for the factory’s work to be carried out by operations in the UK.

“We just don’t know. We have to try everything, and try everything we will and Philip I tell you is not interested in sleep. He is interested in doing whatever he can because there is such a loyal staff in the place,” Mr Reynolds said, adding the cannery section of the plant was totally destroyed in the fire on Sunday night.

The C&D Pet Foods plant was established by the former Taoiseach in Edgeworthstown more than 30 years ago and employs around 500 people.

Cathal Kelly, who has been working at the plant for 20 years, said this would affect the entire area as the factory is a major employer.

“The Reynolds family have been 35 years in the business, they won’t let something like that stop them,” he said. “It is just the time it will take.”

Mr Kelly said the company had major contracts with UK supermarket chains including Tesco, Asda and Sainsbury and jobs would go if the contracts were lost in the long-term.

Mr Kelly, who comes from Edgeworthstown, said: “It is a close-knit community, it will hit hard if it is as bad as reports are now.”

He added: “I’m 20 years in it and I’ve never been out of work. There’s always been overtime. The damage was done in an hour. It is hard to take - people who don’t even work in it were shocked. It will affect people in town who don’t even work in it,” the 36-year-old, who has two children aged two and four, said.

“It is as bad as when the Glanbia plant closed in (nearby) Rooskey, you never think it is going to happen on your own door.”

The 36-year-old said new multi-million euro factory building, which was constructed around five-years-ago was now a shell.

Mr Kelly, who was a supervisor in the chunks and gravy plant, said workers were gathering outside the factory all day in the hope of good news.

He said the plant was family-orientated – with around 350 local people working in it and around 150 non-nationals.

“Many young people who are married are working there, with young kids and mortgages. My brother works there we started together, my sister works there and her husband. There are 11 children between the three families,” he said.

Mr Reynolds said they were relieved no-one was killed in the fire on Sunday night as 33 workers were on duty but were all safely evacuated.

“What happened was bad enough and it is a disaster for the whole area, there is no question about it, when you think of up to 500 families you know, there are still a few there from the time it was opened first,” he told RTE Radio.

Fire officers and gardaí are working to identify how the blaze erupted. They are believed to be examining a cold room storage area in the factory as the possible site of the fire.

Longford County mayor Frank Kilbride said the damage to the factory was about the worst news possible for the town.

“It’s one of the biggest employers in the Midlands, let alone Edgeworthstown. It’s absolutely devastating and there is great concern in the town about this,” he said.

Willie Penrose, the Labour Party’s TD for Westmeath, said the knock-on effect of this for the local area will be extremely serious.

“At this point in time, we have lost the best part of 400-500 jobs. But certainly at the council, we’ll try to give them any assistance that we possibly can,” Mr Kilbride said.

Niall Philips, from SIPTU’s Longford branch, said there were no alternative jobs for workers in the area as it was only three years since the Glanbia bacon factory in Rooskey was also destroyed by fire with the loss of 350 jobs.

The factory hit the headlines in 1992 when it emerged that a Saudi businessman, Khalid al-Masri, had invested 1.1 million Irish pounds in it as part of the passports for investment scheme.

Mr Reynolds denied he had any knowledge of the investment.


Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2006/0116/ireland/reynolds-vows-to-try-to-save-pet-food-factory-jobs-after-blaze-239937.html#ixzz0gITk8ZRW

wasn't there an actual govermental scheme called Passports for Investments ran by Enterprise Ireland in order to encourage investors to come to Ireland in the 1980's, which was abolished in 1998? regardless of it being dodgy, it was above board! no different to any other TD. Sadly it brought some black sheep in buy it had potential of encouraging badly needed investment into Ireland and allow receiptants access to Europe. You seem to neglect the body of that artilce refering to how many people that factory employed and how important it was to the Midlands after probably the army as a source of employment.

Phil Hogan of Fine Gael
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fine-gael-td-got-passports-for-foreigners-phil-hogan-admits-helping-in-sale-to-foreign-nationals--but-doesnt-know-who-they-were-1286382.html

http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2006/01/30/story612884775.asp

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article576519.ece

looks like al was not the only td involved
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/1999/02/19/ihead.htm

Judgement Day

I'm sure that Albert's petfood factory provided loads of employment but that's hardly the point is it? It just shows once again that they all at it with Fianna Fail leading the way. The 'investment' smells nearly as bad as some of the meat plants in Longford/Leitrim/Roscommon - I know, I lived near one.

Judgement Day

Jaysus - even the brother was at it!

http://www.shannonside.ie/news-details.php?nid=4607
Reynolds family unaware property was given as address by fake passport holders[URL="javascript:void(0);"]« Go Back[/URL]Feb 23 2010
James Reynolds, a brother of the former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds has confirmed that a vacant property owned by him in Dublin was given as an address by one of the five people with fake Irish passports, who are alleged to have been involved in last month's assassination of a Hamas official in Dubai.

Mr Reynolds, who is the father of music promoter John Reynolds has owned the vacant terraced, red-brick house on Elgin Road in Dublin 4, since the 1960's - however it has been vacant for ten years.

The property's address was given to a hotel in Dubai as the home address of a man travelling under the name of Kevin Daveron.

He was one of the five people caught with fake Irish passports which used real Irish passport numbers.

He was named last week by Dubai police as one of up to 18 suspects implicated in the assassination of Hamas official Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

The Reynolds family says it is absolutely shocked and knew nothing about what had happened.

trapsagenius

Judgement Day wrote: »

Jaysus - even the brother was at it!

http://www.shannonside.ie/news-details.php?nid=4607
Reynolds family unaware property was given as address by fake passport holders« Go BackFeb 23 2010
James Reynolds, a brother of the former Taoiseach, Albert Reynolds has confirmed that a vacant property owned by him in Dublin was given as an address by one of the five people with fake Irish passports, who are alleged to have been involved in last month's assassination of a Hamas official in Dubai.

Mr Reynolds, who is the father of music promoter John Reynolds has owned the vacant terraced, red-brick house on Elgin Road in Dublin 4, since the 1960's - however it has been vacant for ten years.

The property's address was given to a hotel in Dubai as the home address of a man travelling under the name of Kevin Daveron.

He was one of the five people caught with fake Irish passports which used real Irish passport numbers.

He was named last week by Dubai police as one of up to 18 suspects implicated in the assassination of Hamas official Mahmoud al-Mabhouh.

The Reynolds family says it is absolutely shocked and knew nothing about what had happened.

Would you please stop posting this rubbish and instead comment on what you thought of Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

Judgement Day

trapsagenius wrote: »

Would you please stop posting this rubbish and instead comment on what you thought of Albert Reynolds as Taoiseach?

No need to take it personally. I thought Albert Reynolds was yet another FF gombeen man - now are you happy? Apart from being one of Haughey's right hand men (until he stabbed him in the back), a close buddy of Pee Flinstone and up to his eyes in shenanigans with beef baron Larry Goodman - have you forgotten the beef tribunals already? Yes a great statesman like Bertie and all of the over FF crooks - Sean Doherty, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, John O'Donoghue, Haughey etc....ohhh I'm too bored to continue so you can have your thread back!

trapsagenius

Judgement Day wrote: »

No need to take it personally. I thought Albert Reynolds was yet another FF gombeen man - now are you happy? Apart from being one of Haughey's right hand men (until he stabbed him in the back), a close buddy of Pee Flinstone and up to his eyes in shenanigans with beef baron Larry Goodman - have you forgotten the beef tribunals already? Yes a great statesman like Bertie and all of the over FF crooks - Sean Doherty, Ray Burke, Liam Lawlor, John O'Donoghue, Haughey etc....

Well, I think its a bit harsh calling him a "gombeen man" given the great work he did in NI and the relatively good work on the economy.

ohhh I'm too bored to continue so you can have your thread back!

Thank Christ for that!