Sligo is doing it wrong.

redarmyblues

Small towns tend to measure their importance by their population and local inhabitants are prone to exaggerate the population, when asked how many live in so and so. It is typically the rule by which the success of a town is measured by outsiders. I was on the Chamber of Commerce website early today and I noticed that its motto is "Helping Sligo Grow" since it is more or less the same shower running it the last thirty years I went to the census site to see how helpful they have been. I couldn't help noticing that Sligo seemed to be doing badly compared to other similar Towns so for the sake of pig iron I put together this table which I think speaks for itself.

CFD means could not find data.

Source CSO.ie

Town pop 1979 pop 2006 % increase
Navan 4,305 24,851 477
Ennis 6,279 24,253 286
Portlaoighise 4,346 14,613 236
Newbidge 5,758 18,520 222
Midleton 3,297 10,048 205
Balbriggan 5406 15,559 188
Letterkenny 6,357 17,586 177
Naas 7,739 20,044 159
Mullingar 7,740 18,416 138
Kilkenny 10,079 22,179 120
Wicklow 4,981 10,070 102
Killarney 7,724 14,603 89
Castlebar 6,489 11,891 83
Carlow 11,418 20,724 82
Athlone 9,778 17,544 79
Cobh 6,668 11,303 70
Tullamore 7,854 12,927 65
Drogheda 22,556 35,090 56
Mallow 6,609 10,241 55
Wexford 11,853 18,163 53
Tralee 15,014 22,744 51
Ballina 6,960 10,409 50
Bray 21,773 31,901 47
Arklow 8,451 11,759 39
Dundalk 25,240 35,085 39
Clonmel 12,418 17,008 37
Sligo 16,840 19,402 15
Swords cfd 33,998 0
Celbridge cfd 17,262 0
Malahide cfd 14,937 0
Leixlip cfd 14,676 0
Greystones cfd 14,569 0
Maynooth cfd 10,715 0

Ronan Keating

If no one wants to live in Sligo you can't make them.

dardevle

Ronan Keating wrote: »

If no one wants to live in Sligo you can't make them.

... certainly- but you can make the town more attractive to people so as they want to live/come here...what the op is getting at is the fact that other towns have done so, while Sligo has stood still for the past 20 years, if you look at similar size towns, it becomes apparent that maybe other towns are doing something that Sligo is not doing...its not rocket science, the man tasked by the dept of environment to shape this town is not up to the task- never has been and never will. just look back on the litany of planning disasters over the years- mid block route, eastern bridge, western bypass, o' connell street,retail park, etc... imo Hubert Kearns has done a shiite job as county manager in Sligo for the past 14 years and if he was an elected official he would never see office again, alas he is not an elected official and until the people of Sligo wake up and scream for change then the town is destined to remain stagnant.


.....

redarmyblues

^It is not fair to the other towns to say that Sligo is doing badly in comparison Sligo is performing abysmally in comparison.

In 1979 Sligo had just over 6% of the combined population of the large Irish towns in 2006 it had just over 3% meaning it almost halved in importance in the intervening period.

The average large Irish town increased its population by an average of 118% in the period. Clonmel, the next worst performing town in the population stakes achieved 31% of the average increase while Sligo could only achieve 41% of Clonmel's figure despite the fact that Clonmel has no institute of third level education while Sligo has two, nor does Clonmel have a general hospital.

In these terms Sligo is an abberation among towns in its population class, its only success being in keeping new businesses out.

ddoom

"If no one wants to live in Sligo you can't make them."

What an statement. I left Sligo in 1980 because there was no work, since then I have looked for work in Sligo, still nothing.

Two Third Level Colleges, yet no proper employment.

Sligo only exports its people as it has done for years, if it was not to America, England or Dublin.

Remember a survey carried out a number of years and the percentage of people who were business professionals per head of population was 3%.

T runner

I really dont understand the negativity that perrennially surrounds Sligo.

You have to look at a town in view of the resources around it, the area it is located in and so on. You cant just look at a cencus and conclude "look the population of Sligo hasnt increased, our leaders are crap" etc etc. Its simply ridiculous.

The population of area within 10k of Sligo town has grown significantly. Im from Strandhill and I can tell you that the population has increased massively. Im sure Ballisodare is the same and the area north of the town. The population of rural Sligo has declined with a far higher proportion now living in the same 10k cachment area of the town.

Many of the towns in that list have increased for the dubious reason of being in the massive Dublin commuter belt.

This post just seems to be fabricated to have another negative go at Sligo.
I dont understand it.

Ronan Keating

Exactly. Sligo is a small, rural, west coast town. It always will be. Sitting there under Ben Bulben.

Like A Fox

Considering the title of this thread, I can't believe no one else was immature enough to say "THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID"! :D

T runner

Ronan Keating wrote: »

Exactly. Sligo is a small, rural, west coast town. It always will be. Sitting there under Ben Bulben.

Sligo is actually a large town by Irish standards. The population of the cachment area around and including Sligo town has actually increased while rural Sligo has decreased.

I dont think its logical to look at the population within the urban 2 mile radius of The Lady Erne and make negative conclusions on Sligo based solely on that. There is too much negativity around without inventing more.

bobcar61

Like A Fox wrote: »

Considering the title of this thread, I can't believe no one else was immature enough to say "THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID"! :D

Because this isn't After Hours, comment's like that will get you a short holiday from here so keep them to AH from now on.

redarmyblues

T runner wrote: »

Sligo is actually a large town by Irish standards. The population of the cachment area around and including Sligo town has actually increased while rural Sligo has decreased.

I dont think its logical to look at the population within the urban 2 mile radius of The Lady Erne and make negative conclusions on Sligo based solely on that. There is too much negativity around without inventing more.

If you start including increases in the rural catchment areas of Sligo you are not comparing like with with but if you feel that this would present a more accurate picture of population movements then I suggest that you prepare a table to prove your point.

For me population growth is not the be all and end all, in fact I can probably do without it at all. My point is the various bodies who have the stated aim of "helping Sligo grow" have failed miserably in their aims ,and they would have been better off at least in the case of the CoC of doing nothing at all for the last 30 years. Depsite these long term failures (by their own standards) the executive of the CoCo and the CoC shamelessly still insist that they know what is best for the area and are determined to inflict more damage to the fabric of this town in the name of progress. Progress in Ireland meaning enrichment for the chosen few.

Many of the towns on the list are what used to be known as markets town meaning that their main economic function was as a shopping and marketing location for their hinterland and we may imagine that as the Irish economy has expanded so has the spend in these towns with new shops providing new jobs for workers who need new houses more services etc. As far back as I can remember the CoC has busied itself preventing new shops from opening in Sligo, deluding themselves that local shoppers will have no choice but to come to them. Wrong: people are voting with their cars and taking their spend elsewhere. The mid block route has failed to solve Sligo's driving and parking problems and travellers passing through Sligo on that road remarking upon the traffic jams have no inclination to stay. Meanwhile Nero fiddles while Rome burns' the County Manager has committed the local authority to an arcane 4m legal battle that will be of no benefit to Sligo, win or lose. 4m is enough to build 3 footbridges for private developers or give 80 people jobs for a year.

Oh, and its Lady Erin by the way, not Lady Erne. Lady Erne is up by Enniskillen, where the people of Sligo and its hinterland go to spend their money.

jimmmy

redarmyblues wrote: »

As far back as I can remember the CoC has busied itself preventing new shops from opening in Sligo, deluding themselves that local shoppers will have no choice but to come to them.

nobody can or has "prevented" new shops coming to Sligo. There are numerous empty shop units in Sligo for lease or sale, and numerous development sites and brown field sites available. In fact there are far too many such sites if anything. If a shop wants to come to Sligo they would be welcomed with open arms by everyone. The likes of Burgerking and McDonalds left Sligo not because the CofC or anyone else prevented them from doing business in Sligo.

redarmyblues wrote: »

people are voting with their cars and taking their spend elsewhere. The mid block route has failed to solve Sligo's driving and parking problems and travellers passing through Sligo on that road remarking upon the traffic jams have no inclination to stay.

The Borough council clearly should provide more parking spaces close to the inner relief road, say between it and the town centre, to entice people to stay + shop. Mistakes were clearly made in locating shops outside Sligo in the past. Maybe they should be bulldozed and moved in to Sligo eg where the Brooks timber yard site is, beside the inner relief road? This will help make Sligo a critical mass. Visitors arriving by Bus train, bicycle or taxi to Sligo, or visiting cars passing through Sligo cannot be expected to find never mind travel to out of the way places like Duncans island, Carraroe and Cleveragh. Go to neighbouring towns like Enniskillen , Castlebar and Athlone and you will find Argos within walking distance of the town centres there. Easy and cheap parking and the town centre takes off a result. Ask visiting people to Sligo if they came across Argos would be like asking them if they found a McDonalds there. The town should have expanded from the centre out, and the people who allowed units to be built ( many of which have never taken off ) in outlying areas are to be blamed for the towns lack of progress. Vast housing estates should not have been built in tax-incentive area like Collaney, as the people out there have too far to commute to work, third level, hospital, entertainment + transport hub ,decent shops etc. Many people who bought in areas like that are regretting doing so now.

dardevle

jimmmy wrote: »

nobody can or has "prevented" new shops coming to Sligo. There are numerous empty shop units in Sligo for lease or sale, and numerous development sites and brown field sites available. In fact there are far too many such sites if anything. If a shop wants to come to Sligo they would be welcomed with open arms by everyone. The likes of Burgerking and McDonalds left Sligo not because the CofC or anyone else prevented them from doing business in Sligo.


.

do you have any idea of the rents being charged in the town centre?...the likes of bk and mcd's left the main street in part because of the huge rents being applied...in mickey d's case it made more economic sense to start afresh in a greenfield site than pay the extortionary rates on O'Connell street.
logistics do play a part in why the town is not thriving but so too does the stranglehold of the powerful few at the "Cartel of Commerce" who for years have been allowed to dictate what shops are allowed compete in town and those shops that are deemed unworthy.


prevention occurs in different forms.



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jimmmy

dardevle wrote: »

do you have any idea of the rents being charged in the town centre?

Yes actually, they are comparable to other town centres. There are hundreds of empty buildings / vacant building sites in the town, like there are in other towns
Shopkeepers have to pay rent or else buy the building - this applies if the building is situated on prime farming land a few miles from town, or in the town.

dardevle wrote: »

the powerful few at the "Cartel of Commerce" who for years have been allowed to dictate what shops are allowed compete in town and those shops that are deemed unworthy.

Nobody can dictate "what shops are allowed compete in town"....the market proves it ....you pay the asking price to rent or lease a premises, or you can buy a development site in the town. There is no conspiracy between hundreds of propertry owners who they will sell to or lease to. Most would be only too glad to get someone to buy or rent their empty building or site, thats the same the world over. There is no money in having a building vacant. There are ghost residential housing estates built during the boom, there were ghost commercial buildings built in the wrong places too, and they may eventually be bulldozed. Some will certainly never be occupied.

redarmyblues

jimmmy wrote: »

Nobody can dictate "what shops are allowed compete in town"....the market proves it ....you pay the asking price to rent or lease a premises, or you can buy a development site in the town.

Tell that to Argos, who were prevented from opening where they wanted in Carraroe.

dardevle

......
Nobody can dictate "what shops are allowed compete in town"....the market proves it ....you pay the asking price to rent or lease a premises, or you can buy a development site

^^^^
your idea of how the town should/does operate is naive in the extreme....

your post is composed of soundbites and vague NAMA like references to ghost estates,

while there are many empty buildings in town, there are not hundreds of property owners in the town centre, only the same handful dictating to the majority....there is an 8 fold increase in rents from market square to O' Connell street...would you not consider that to be prohibitive? yet because of the concerted effort to keep the wealth only on O'Connell street, it amounts to ecomomic hari-kari to try and grow a business off the main drag.(unless its a bookies or a head shop)




...

jimmmy

redarmyblues wrote: »

Tell that to Argos, who were prevented from opening where they wanted in Carraroe.

There was or is nothing to prevent them opening in Sligo. There are over a hundred vacant shops and sites in Sligo - there is nothing to prevent them renting or buying one of them, or buying a development site there and building a unit to their own design if they want. The secret behind Argos sucess in places like Athlone, Letterkenny and Castlebar is that they are in the town centre or easily accessible from it on foot. In Sligo Argos is too far from the town centre, thats why its not busy. If it was say between the inner relief road and the town centre, with plenty of parking ( which should be provided by the Borough Council ) , that would be a great help to it, and the town centre. Location, location, location.

redarmyblues

jimmmy wrote: »

There was or is nothing to prevent them opening in Sligo. There are over a hundred vacant shops and sites in Sligo - there is nothing to prevent them renting or buying one of them, or buying a development site there and building a unit to their own design if they want. The secret behind Argos sucess in places like Athlone, Letterkenny and Castlebar is that they are in the town centre or easily accessible from it on foot. In Sligo Argos is too far from the town centre, thats why its not busy. If it was say between the inner relief road and the town centre, with plenty of parking ( which should be provided by the Borough Council ) , that would be a great help to it, and the town centre. Location, location, location.

The history of Argos in Sligo is recounted here. The local CoC have been engaged in a war against Pat Doherty developer of the Retail Park for quite a while.
Wednesday, September 21, 2005 :

FRONT | NEWS | SPORT | LOCAL NEWS | OTHER NEWS
Tracing origins of Argos story

The seeds of the Argos saga were sown three years ago when consultation began on the Sligo and Environs Development Plan.

Business interests in Sligo town, backed by a number of councillors, campaigned to prevent out of town shopping developments from selling certain types of goods.

However, the origins of the current scandal can be traced back to April of 2004 when Carraroe Retail Park developers Newbay Doherty first submitted an application for Homebase.

Here’s how the last 17 months have flown: 16/4/04: Newbay Doherty submit application on behalf of Homebase calling for alterations to their unit

17/5/04: Richard Lyons and Sligo Chamber of Commerce make observations on the changes.

10/6/04: Sligo County Council grants permission for the alterations and add in the conditions of planning that the unit “shall not principally be used for the sale of comparison goods”.

7/7/04: Richard Lyons appeals the conditions of the Homebase application to An Bord Pleanala claiming they are against the guidelines of the Sligo and Environs Development Plan. Sligo Chamber of Commerce submit an observation to Mr Lyons’ appeal, giving it their support.

26/10/04: An Bord Pleanala upholds the planning permission but re-words the conditions to the approval of Mr Lyons who has already experienced a considerable backlash against his objection.

26/5/05: Richard Lyons is the only member of the Sligo Chamber of Commerce Council not to get re-elected to the council.

31/5/05: Argos submit an application for alterations to their warehouse unit and permission to sell comparison as well as bulky goods to Sligo County Council. 7/4/05: Sligo Chamber of Commerce object to Argos’ application claiming it goes against the guidelines of the Sligo and Environs Development Plan.

15/7/05: Sligo County Council grant Argos planning permission for alterations their warehouse unit and gives them permission to sell their full catalogue of goods, comparison and bulky.

9/8/05: Sligo Chamber of Commerce appeal Sligo County Council’s decision to An Bord Pleanala claiming that it goes against the guidelines of the Sligo and Environs Development Plan.

19/8/05: Developer Seamus O’Dowd commissions a poll on the Argos issue. An overwhelming majority want Argos in Sligo and the majority of those want them located in Carraroe.

13/9/05: Argos issues a statement saying they will pull out of their proposals to set up a store in Sligo unless Sligo Chamber of Commerce withdraw their An Bord Pleanala appeal immediately.

15/9/05: Members of Sligo Chamber of Commerce council and Argos meet in private in Sligo to discuss the impasse. A two line statement issued by both parties indicate that the meeting was positive and open and that another meeting in the near future is planned. 16/9/05: The Sligo Weekender goes out onto the streets to get the reaction of the general public to the Argos/Chamber impasse. The results do not make good reading for Sligo Chamber of Commerce, with the vast majority wanting Argos to be located in Carraroe Retail Park.

If I remember correctly the reason that was then Argos were allowed into Cleveragh is because it was deemed to be in the Town centre.

T runner

redarmyblues wrote: »

If you start including increases in the rural catchment areas of Sligo you are not comparing like with with but if you feel that this would present a more accurate picture of population movements then I suggest that you prepare a table to prove your point.

Do I really have to provide you with a table for you to believe that the populations of Strandhill, Ballisodare and other towns within the Sligo cachement area have balooned?

BTW I also dont agree that population movements proves any points in regard to Sligo including your own.

For me population growth is not the be all and end all, in fact I can probably do without it at all.

It is what it is. The population of Sligo town with the 2 mile radius has grown fractionally. The population of the Sligo cachement area has grown more significantly.

My point is the various bodies who have the stated aim of "helping Sligo grow" have failed miserably in their aims ,and they would have been better off at least in the case of the CoC of doing nothing at all for the last 30 years.

Thats a wild statement. Can you substantiate it?

Depsite these long term failures (by their own standards) the executive of the CoCo and the CoC shamelessly still insist that they know what is best for the area and are determined to inflict more damage to the fabric of this town in the name of progress.

They are elected to do whats best for the area. They are unlikely to say otherwise are they? What exactly are you looking for? The Council en masse to state that they dont know whats good for the town and resign?

Here is the mission statment from Chamber of Commerce site. Nowhere does it state that an increase in the population of the Sligo Borough is a goal. You have incorrectly extrapolated this.

Mission Statement


"Sligo Chamber exists to further the interests of its members by influencing all appropriate public and private bodies or agencies, to promote the long term economic developments of the county and to create, maintain and develop an environment and infrastructure in County Sligo which is conducive to the development of local business, industry and commerce.

Providing a range of effective and efficient services to enable the business community to grow, develop and gain competitive advantage, and to attract new industry, commerce and investment to the County."

Progress in Ireland meaning enrichment for the chosen few.

Another sweeping statement Im afraid. Ireland has one of the largest middle classes in the world. A large finger should be pointed at them when criticising Ireland's shortcomings.

Many of the towns on the list are what used to be known as markets town meaning that their main economic function was as a shopping and marketing location for their hinterland and we may imagine that as the Irish economy has expanded so has the spend in these towns with new shops providing new jobs for workers who need new houses more services etc. As far back as I can remember the CoC has busied itself preventing new shops from opening in Sligo, deluding themselves that local shoppers will have no choice but to come to them.

I have to disagree. I would have imagined there are actually too many shops in Sligo town. Continuously opening shops in an economic bubble is not going to help Sligo. In this time of recession that at least is clear.

Wrong: people are voting with their cars and taking their spend elsewhere.

Nothing to do with Sligo and everything to do with the differential between teh currencies.

Same problem applies to Dublin, Drogheda, Dundalk etc.

The mid block route has failed to solve Sligo's driving and parking problems and travellers passing through Sligo on that road remarking upon the traffic jams have no inclination to stay.

I would have thought the mid block route was a success. In what other town can you get from one side to the other as quickly as in Sligo?

If you think traffic is bad in Sligo you havent seen anything.

Meanwhile Nero fiddles while Rome burns' the County Manager has committed the local authority to an arcane 4m legal battle that will be of no benefit to Sligo, win or lose. 4m is enough to build 3 footbridges for private developers or give 80 people jobs for a year.

Why on earth would you build one footbridge in Sligo never mind three?

Is that the right of way battle? If the council believes its a public right of way then it has a duty to its citizens to protect that right of way.

jimmmy

redarmyblues wrote: »

If I remember correctly the reason that was then Argos were allowed into Cleveragh is because it was deemed to be in the Town centre.

There was and is nothing to prevent Argos getting a better location in the town. Who would find them over there, either by foot, bicycle, public transport , or car, away from the town centre, inner relief road, bus + rail station , taxi rank etc ? They would find they would get a lot more customers if they were in a better location...their locations in other surrounding towns like Enniskillen, Castlebar + Athlone is more town centre there. They have every right to be in Cleveragh as well as closer to the town centre / inner relief road....but retail is about location location location

Essexboy

T runner wrote: »

Do I really have to provide you with a table for you to believe that the populations of Strandhill, Ballisodare and other towns within the Sligo cachement area have balooned?

BTW I also dont agree that population movements proves any points in regard to Sligo including your own.



It is what it is. The population of Sligo town with the 2 mile radius has grown fractionally. The population of the Sligo cachement area has grown more significantly.





Thats a wild statement. Can you substantiate it?




They are elected to do whats best for the area. They are unlikely to say otherwise are they? What exactly are you looking for? The Council en masse to state that they dont know whats good for the town and resign?

Here is the mission statment from Chamber of Commerce site. Nowhere does it state that an increase in the population of the Sligo Borough is a goal. You have incorrectly extrapolated this.

Mission Statement


"Sligo Chamber exists to further the interests of its members by influencing all appropriate public and private bodies or agencies, to promote the long term economic developments of the county and to create, maintain and develop an environment and infrastructure in County Sligo which is conducive to the development of local business, industry and commerce.

Providing a range of effective and efficient services to enable the business community to grow, develop and gain competitive advantage, and to attract new industry, commerce and investment to the County."




Another sweeping statement Im afraid. Ireland has one of the largest middle classes in the world. A large finger should be pointed at them when criticising Ireland's shortcomings.



I have to disagree. I would have imagined there are actually too many shops in Sligo town. Continuously opening shops in an economic bubble is not going to help Sligo. In this time of recession that at least is clear.



Nothing to do with Sligo and everything to do with the differential between teh currencies.

Same problem applies to Dublin, Drogheda, Dundalk etc.



I would have thought the mid block route was a success. In what other town can you get from one side to the other as quickly as in Sligo?

If you think traffic is bad in Sligo you havent seen anything.



Why on earth would you build one footbridge in Sligo never mind three?

Is that the right of way battle? If the council believes its a public right of way then it has a duty to its citizens to protect that right of way.

I would have thought the mid block route was a success

Do you use the Hughes Bridge at rush-hour? Through traffic (south bound)tails back to Hendersons on one lane while the outer lane, for quays-bound traffic, is almost empty: the bright boys of course, shoot down the outside lane and ignore the right hand only sign at the turnoff for the quays.
Northbound, traffic for Dromahair etc. tails back to the start of the bridge delaying traffic for North Sligo.

bobcar61

Seriously, do we really need this argument about why we think stores are closing in town and moving outwards and where Argos are located.

I think not....!

redarmyblues

bobcar61 wrote: »

Seriously, do we really need this argument about why we think stores are closing in town and moving outwards and where Argos are located.

I think not....!

Exactly. the point of this thread was to illustrate how badly Sligo was doing in the growth stakes relative to other similar towns, despite the efforts of local groups one of whom has the following written "helping Sligo grow" under the masthead of its website . The figures quoted are the official figures and it serves no purpose to try and gloss over them with talk about hinterland increases. I mean if Sligo had the largest increase in its hinterland of all the towns that would suggest that Sligo was the least attractive place to live as people flee to the country.

The idea was that the people would discuss or explain why Sligo's population had increased by 15% versus an average of 118% in the period and ss this actually a bad thing and if it is what ought to be done to change it.

Culchie

redarmyblues wrote: »

Small towns tend to measure their importance by their population and local inhabitants are prone to exaggerate the population, when asked how many live in so and so. It is typically the rule by which the success of a town is measured by outsiders. I was on the Chamber of Commerce website early today and I noticed that its motto is "Helping Sligo Grow" since it is more or less the same shower running it the last thirty years I went to the census site to see how helpful they have been. I couldn't help noticing that Sligo seemed to be doing badly compared to other similar Towns so for the sake of pig iron I put together this table which I think speaks for itself.

CFD means could not find data.

Source CSO.ie

Town pop 1979 pop 2006 % increase
Navan 4,305 24,851 477
Ennis 6,279 24,253 286
Portlaoighise 4,346 14,613 236
Newbidge 5,758 18,520 222
Midleton 3,297 10,048 205
Balbriggan 5406 15,559 188
Letterkenny 6,357 17,586 177
Naas 7,739 20,044 159
Mullingar 7,740 18,416 138
Kilkenny 10,079 22,179 120
Wicklow 4,981 10,070 102
Killarney 7,724 14,603 89
Castlebar 6,489 11,891 83
Carlow 11,418 20,724 82
Athlone 9,778 17,544 79
Cobh 6,668 11,303 70
Tullamore 7,854 12,927 65
Drogheda 22,556 35,090 56
Mallow 6,609 10,241 55
Wexford 11,853 18,163 53
Tralee 15,014 22,744 51
Ballina 6,960 10,409 50
Bray 21,773 31,901 47
Arklow 8,451 11,759 39
Dundalk 25,240 35,085 39
Clonmel 12,418 17,008 37
Sligo 16,840 19,402 15
Swords cfd 33,998 0
Celbridge cfd 17,262 0
Malahide cfd 14,937 0
Leixlip cfd 14,676 0
Greystones cfd 14,569 0
Maynooth cfd 10,715 0

You went to a fair bit of work, so this is meant as comment, not criticism of your findings.

Most of the towns on the above list (note I said most) are commuter towns around Dublin, Cork or Limerick.

I used to work in a job where there was a fair bit of demographic profiling involved, and I also seen predictive reports from the likes of the CSO etc... Basically the trend will be continous to the East Coast and to cities, and will be forever more.

If you draw a line from Dublin to Galway, by the year 2020 ...80% of the population will be below that line.

The drift will be rural to urban centre ...in my opinion Letterkenny can also be explained by the vast hinterlands in that area moving to it's only urban area in the region.

Shadow78

The planners have to take repsonibility for alot of this. If you look at the scale of development that went on in every village/town bar sligo itself there was estates going up left and right. Sligo town on the other hand has had very little development. The vast majority of the people living in colooney, balisadare, carney, grange, cliffoney, kinlough work in sligo where the jobs. So nows theres huge number commuting into sligo because there wasnt enough or affordable housing withing sligo town to cater for their needs.

Who owns the land banks around sligo? is it a case where you have people sitting on them not wanting the town to expand.

If you look at Ballina, Castlebar and Tralee and compare those with Sligo you see they have done well on increasing in size so the argument that its because Sligo is on the west coast does not fly.

seanie2

From someone with a totally independent view and who once lived in Sligo (around the early noughties) I agree totally with the OP's views.

Sligo is and has always been a backward town. Back in the early noughties you never had a shop open late in the evenings and as for Sunday opening it never existed. The business owners in Sligo have their own mindset and you dare not propose change. They deserve what they have now " a town to pass through with closed eyes"

T runner

redarmyblues wrote: »

Exactly. the point of this thread was to illustrate how badly Sligo was doing in the growth stakes relative to other similar towns,

These towns arent similar: as has been pointed out many of these other towns population growth is mainly associated with their proximity to a large city. Sligo is not in commuting range of a large city so wont get thi sdisproportionate population growth.

despite the efforts of local groups one of whom has the following written "helping Sligo grow" under the masthead of its website

.

Is I have pointed out (and you have ignored) this slogan does not mean "helping the urban Sligo area grow in population". The mission statement below form that particular local group clearly describes growing the business community and infrastructure.

You have incorrectly taken this one slogan to mean that population growth is a target of all these groups and you have used the strawman argument of comparing Sligo's population to that of commuter towns to prove your bogus point.

"Sligo Chamber exists to further the interests of its members by influencing all appropriate public and private bodies or agencies, to promote the long term economic developments of the county and to create, maintain and develop an environment and infrastructure in County Sligo which is conducive to the development of local business, industry and commerce.

Providing a range of effective and efficient services to enable the business community to grow, develop and gain competitive advantage, and to attract new industry, commerce and investment to the County."

The figures quoted are the official figures and it serves no purpose to try and gloss over them with talk about hinterland increases.

Why not? If people are living in Strandhill and working in Sligo it means that Sligos working population and economy has increased does it not? It means that Sligo has grown.

I mean if Sligo had the largest increase in its hinterland of all the towns that would suggest that Sligo was the least attractive place to live as people flee to the country.

Or if you looked at it more positively it may mean that Sligo has more attractive suburbs within 10k of its centre for young families to live than towns like Carlow. Where would prefer to live Castledermot (5 miles from Carlow town) or Strandhill/Rossespoint?

The idea was that the people would discuss or explain why Sligo's population had increased by 15% versus an average of 118% in the period and ss this actually a bad thing and if it is what ought to be done to change it.

No your idea was to relate the population change to some Sligo chamber of commerce motto (which ahd nothing to do with population) and conclude it was a bad thing based on this. You basically invented a reason for starting another negative meaningless thread about Sligo.

What are you suggesting we do about this anyway? Have you anything positive to contribute as a solution?

T runner

seanie2 wrote: »

From someone with a totally independent view and who once lived in Sligo (around the early noughties) I agree totally with the OP's views.

Sligo is and has always been a backward town. Back in the early noughties you never had a shop open late in the evenings and as for Sunday opening it never existed. The business owners in Sligo have their own mindset and you dare not propose change. They deserve what they have now " a town to pass through with closed eyes"

Just make sure youre not driving when you pass through Sligo with closed eyes, please.

What progressive forward looking part of Ireland do you come from yourself?

dardevle

...




are you really suggesting that- business,industrial, commercial and infrastructure growth can all take place WITHOUT population growth also occuring




...

T runner

dardevle wrote: »

...




are you really suggesting that- business,industrial, commercial and infrastructure growth can all take place WITHOUT population growth also occuring




...

No, although that is possible that is not what I am saying. Business growth etc can occur in Sligo Borough without the population of that Borough increasing.

In the two electoral areas Sligo-Strandhill and Sligo-Drumcliff there are 32000 people. That is in the area around Sligo most of the population of County Sligo reside. There has been a significant increase in population in this area.

Im not one for defending CoCouncils etc that shouldnt be defended but I like positivity and this thread is just negative for the sake of it.

There is absolutely no reason to trace the current population of Sligo town
realative to otehr towns to the failings of individuals or groups within the town.

Nobody has claimed that their aim was to increase the population of Sligo Borough so nobody can be condemned for failing in their aims.

Why Sligo has been slow to grow which is seperate can be attributed to the following amonst other reasons:

People settling in suburban areas ouside Sligo e.g Strandhill rather than in the borough itself for quality of life reasons.

Developers bulding in the likes of Coolooney/Balllisodare for cost reasons.

Lack of suitable affordable land within the borough etc etc.

Sligo not being a commuter area of a large city like dublin.

Rural Sligo being sparsely populated so less effect form the rural urban shift in Sligo town tha in other towns with bigger county populations.


This thread seems to just about having a go. The peopel in question may deserve it but not for the reasons set out i.e failing in their own aim of increasing the populatio of Sligo.

dardevle

....



....



if you want to exclude those towns from the commuter belt, how do you account for the growth in towns like Castlebar, Ballina,Athlone, and Tralee, where pop growth has been above the 50% mark... while Sligo has seen very small increase in pop, rather a shuffling of the existing population from the town to outline villages.

to parahrase a quote from another thread..." in the 70's Sligos population was 14,000 and Galways 21,000, Galway has now 72,000.we are missing out."



....

jimmmy

dardevle wrote: »

, how do you account for the growth in towns like Castlebar, Ballina,Athlone, and Tralee, where pop growth has been above the 50% mark... while Sligo has seen very small increase in pop, rather a shuffling of the existing population from the town to outline villages.

Sligo has obviously got too spread out - why try to make it like L.A. in the rain ? ...where everyone has to have a car and drive miles. As fossil fuels get more scarce and expensive the planners will see the folly of their ways in not just allowing but actually encouraging through tax breaks eg section 23 + section 27 developments in outlying areas eg Collooney and Collaney.
Too many ghost estates were allowed to be built, in the wrong areas, away from jobs, transport ( rail bus etc ) hubs, schools, colleges, hospital etc. There are industrial estates / retail parks in Collooney with virtually nobody in them, and where nobody ever will be in them either, and which some say are now worth 15% of the construction cost. The planners did not allow Sligo to develop from the centre out, and some business which did well in Sligo found when they moved to Collooney they suffered, and have since closed in Collooney. That is why Sligo has not grown. Visiting shoppers to Sligo cannot be expected to try to find places like Cleveragh, Duncans island, Carraroe etc, and travel between them. Sligo did not develop a critical mass ; allowing development outside Sligo has been shown to be detrimental. Plus of course there should be more car parking spaces, preferably free , close to the centre of Sligo, and easily accessible from the inner relief road, which most people entering Sligo travel on.

T runner

dardevle wrote: »

....



....



if you want to exclude those towns from the commuter belt, how do you account for the growth in towns like Castlebar, Ballina,Athlone, and Tralee, where pop growth has been above the 50% mark... while Sligo has seen very small increase in pop, rather a shuffling of the existing population from the town to outline villages.

to parahrase a quote from another thread..." in the 70's Sligos population was 14,000 and Galways 21,000, Galway has now 72,000.we are missing out."



....

I did point out in my last post that rural-urban migration has not had as large an impact on Sligo. Rural migration has had a huge affect on the population of Castlebar for example. Tralee is similar and its population has been fed by a large migration from rural areas in Kerry. Co Sligo is simply too sparsely populated for the rural-urban type migration to have had an affect like in these other towns.

You have also ignored that 32,000 people live in the Sligo-Strandhill and Sligo-Drumcliff electoral areas.

There is potential for growth in Sligo although it will never be a Galway. The gateway project if successful would see investment brought in from outside which should affect the cachment populations of these gateway cities.

dardevle

T runner wrote: »

The gateway project if successful would see investment brought in from outside which should affect the cachment populations of these gateway cities.

...

..in the same way the chamber of commerce, if successful, would see investment brought in from outside, ( as proscribed in the CoC mission statement) which should affect the catchment population.





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T runner

dardevle wrote: »

...

..in the same way the chamber of commerce, if successful, would see investment brought in from outside, ( as proscribed in the CoC mission statement) which should affect the catchment population.





....

The cachment population is atleast 32,000. This is about what youd expect.
The Gateway project would envisage a future population of 50,000.

We will need a powerstation for that though and they aint cheap.

darealtulip

T runner wrote: »

The cachment population is atleast 32,000. This is about what youd expect.
The Gateway project would envisage a future population of 50,000.

We will need a powerstation for that though and they aint cheap.

What does cachment population?

T runner

darealtulip wrote: »

What does cachment population?

Its the area around a town and city that depends on it. The area for example where most of the workers would work in the town/city. Strandhill, Rosses Point, Drumcliff, Ballisodare, Cooloney, etc would be in the cachment area of Sligo.

darealtulip

T runner wrote: »

Its the area around a town and city that depends on it. The area for example where most of the workers would work in the town/city. Strandhill, Rosses Point, Drumcliff, Ballisodare, Cooloney, etc would be in the cachment area of Sligo.

Thanks! Thankfully you understood what I ment, forgot to write 'mean'

redarmyblues

Table of population increases of Irish Counties (without County Boroughs) from 2002 to 2006, again Sligo has the smallest population growth.

Carlow 9.4
Kildare 13.7
Kilkenny 9
Laoighis 14.1
Longford 10.7
Louth 9.3
Meath 21.5
Offaly 11.3
Westmeath 10.4
Wexford 13
Wicklow 10
Clare 7.4
Kerry 5.5
North Tipperary 8.2
South Tipperary 5.2
Connacht 8.6
Leitrim 12.2
Mayo 5.4
Roscommon 9.3
Sligo 4.6
Cavan 13.2
Donegal 7
Monaghan 6.5
State 8.2

redarmyblues

The population of Sligo/Strandhill and Sligo/Drumcliff at the 2006 census is 32645 up from 27060 in 1979 an increase of 20% (compared with 15% for Sligo Town) so claims of massive increases in the hinterland are wrong. Of course these electoral areas are not Sligo town as they strech from Bunduff on the Sligo Leitrim border to Colloney and east towards Ballintogher. If these electoral divisions were indicative of urban areas then Enniscorthy with 31797 would be much of a muchness with Sligo.
Source again is the CSO.

T runner

redarmyblues wrote: »

The population of Sligo/Strandhill and Sligo/Drumcliff at the 2006 census is 32645 up from 27060 in 1979 an increase of 20% (compared with 15% for Sligo Town) so claims of massive increases in the hinterland are wrong. Of course these electoral areas are not Sligo town as they strech from Bunduff on the Sligo Leitrim border to Colloney and east towards Ballyfarnon. If these electoral divisions were indicative of urban areas then Enniscorthy with 31797 would be much of a muchness with Sligo.
Source again is the CSO.

All these areas are basically within a 10k range of Sligo town and the people living there are dependent on the town as the choef supplier of employment. The Enniscorthy electoral areas ofcourse covers a huge geographical area that could be classified as rural ie The majority of the 31000 in the areas outside Enniscorthy town are NOT dependent on Enniscorthy for employment.


You seem to agree that population is not relevant. You still havent provided us with a source that said Sligo chamber of Commerce/Sligo CoCo etc have said that increasing the population of Sligo Borough is their objective. The slogan "making Sligo grow" on the chamber's site explicitly refers to
business, infrastructure etc as defined in their mission statement.

Can you provide us with a source that says specifically they want the population to grow?

Or is this thread just an excuse for a rant?

redarmyblues

bunduff is 29km and 27 minutes from sligo. Source google maps.
Sources close to the coc tell me, in a sinister development that plans are in hand to annexe dromahair, charlestown and the leitrim half of the glencar valley. An insider said "sure how else can you grow a county"

dardevle

...

..just think how bad some of the other towns on the list must be feeling right now-
business growth, infrastructure growth, commercial growth,industrial growth.... but also cursed by population growth to support this, if only they had followed the model of Sligo CoC.;)




...

T runner

dardevle wrote: »

...

..just think how bad some of the other towns on the list must be feeling right now-
business growth, infrastructure growth, commercial growth,industrial growth.... but also cursed by population growth to support this, if only they had followed the model of Sligo CoC.;)




...

The point is that Sligo CoCo has never claimed that population growth in Sligo town was a goal of theirs. Nobody has. (Unless you can show us where Sligo CoCo has said this?)

Another point is that the population of the cachment area around Sligo has balooned. Strandhill is a completly different place to where I grew up in the 70's. It is now a suburban town of Sligo. The vast majority of people from strandhill who work work in Sligo town.

There are several reasons why Sligo's population has not grown like towns like Drogheda and Ill tell you this, the population of Drogheda has increased dramatically but there has been no reciprocal increase in Industry. All the new peopel work and commute to Dublin. If they had a choice between a 1-1.5 hour commute or a 20 min commute form the cachment area of Sligo I know which theyd choose in a heartbeat.

But I forgot we're from Sligo so lets be negative. Youre right Sligo is undoubtedly the worst town in Ireland.

T runner

redarmyblues wrote: »

bunduff is 29km and 27 minutes from sligo. Source google maps.
Sources close to the coc tell me, in a sinister development that plans are in hand to annexe dromahair, charlestown and the leitrim half of the glencar valley. An insider said "sure how else can you grow a county"

The vast majority of the 32000 people live within 10k of Sligo and not in places like Bunduff. The thin sliver of land beside Benbulben and the sea must naturally go into the Sligo-Drumcliff area. Sure remove the 40-50 people who lifve in teh townland of Bunduff if it makes you feel better. BTW Are you denying the massive increases in population of places like Strandhill?

Population growth is not an issue for you, for me, for the CoCo or for Sligo chamber of comerce. Sligo Chamber of Commerce have not failed by their own standards on this issue because they never claimed population growth in Sligo Borough as an objective. What is this thread really about? Have you any solutions at all?

Shadow78

T Runner> what about towns like Ballina, Castlebar, Tralee. No need to point at east coast or midland towns within range of dublin.

T runner

Shadow78 wrote: »

T Runner> what about towns like Ballina, Castlebar, Tralee. No need to point at east coast or midland towns within range of dublin.

Several reasons have been pointed out in a previous post with possible explanantions as to why Sligo town was slow to grow. Rural to Urban migration has occurred in many towns including Sligo. The majority of Sligo County now lives within 10k of Sligo town. Rural migration is more prnounced in counties that have a bigger population naturally enough. Rural Sligo was extremely sparsely populated to start with.

There is absolutely no evidence to show that the population growth or lack was directly as a resultb of failed policies by local leaders which was the original claim by the OP. Again, what is this thread about?

tedshredsonfire

Have to say am with T runner here but op like what has been asked whats your solution? Run for local government or lobby for what you believe in its very easy to point the finger.

redarmyblues

T runner wrote: »

No, although that is possible that is not what I am saying. Business growth etc can occur in Sligo Borough without the population of that Borough increasing.

Possible but highly improbable.

You keeping harping on about massive increases in the the catchment area. I repeat that the population of Sligo/Strandhill and Sligo/Drumcliffe increased by 120% between 1979 and 2006 while the population of Sligo town increased by 115% yes the town and nearby rural area have done better than the town alone but the increases are not the massive increases you speak of. Furthermore you have twice stated that the populations of rural areas have fallen in the same period, this is not true. The combined populations of the Tubbercurry, Ballymote and Dromore rural area increased by 1% in the period.
If you are going to post on this topic, you first should do your research or else you risk making a fool of yourself. If you had bothered to read my posts instead of making it up as you go along you would know the purpose of the thread (It is clearly stated).

Shadow78

There is absolutely no evidence to show that the population growth or lack was directly as a resultb of failed policies by local leaders which was the original claim by the OP

you mean other than the evidence that sligo shows very poor growth in comparison to any other town on the list.

And if its not the people with influence on Sligo that are to blame who is then? the people with no influence?

Personally I think Sligo has sufferened from poor local leadership and poor political clout.

dardevle

Shadow78 wrote: »

Personally I think Sligo has sufferened from poor local leadership and poor political clout.

...


some would have you believe to question this "leadership" is too negative, better to only look at the positive- rather than reality.

oh and if you do question then you have to also run for office.... otherwise no criticism is allowed,:rolleyes:


:cool: sunshine, lollipops and rainbows forum that way.>>>>>>>



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