So Enda Kenny is lacking charisma...

Pappy o' daniel

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly? Brian Cowen, Willie o'Dea, Gormley, Mary Harney? None of these people could be called charismatic.
Its just lazily repeated by the media and I dont think it stands up to scrutiny.

mike65

Oh it does...

bmaxi

Every time I see Kenny speak in the Dáil it looks rehearsed and contrived, as if he doesn't himself, believe what he is saying. I know most politicians have speechwriters but with Kenny it is so obvious they are not his words.
I have in the past accused him of lacking charisma but there is also this inability to inspire confidence.

Liam Byrne

bmaxi wrote: »

Every time I see Kenny speak in the Dáil it looks rehearsed and contrived, as if he doesn't himself, believe what he is saying.

I still think I'd prefer this to having someone spouting lies, PR spin, and bull****. and looking like they believe it.

So the OP does have a point.

It's unfortunately a sign of the standard of politics, however Obama had "charisma" and "goodwill" and it's only now that he's making any progress whatsoever.

So I'd gladly lose the charisma and the jokey con-man smugness and faux sincerity in return for someone who could actually do the job.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

I think it's a bit shallow of Irish politics, and indeed probably politics the world over, that we are always looking for this super-human who can transform a country into a Utopia while still being loved by your auntie and your ideal candidate to take for a pint.

It's like politics being a form of Pop Idol.
We really shouldn't give a damn if somone comes across as a bit of a bore and hasn't a fantastic smile. The real question is whether they can possibly run the country in an efficient manner while providing the services that country needs.
It's all down to taxes collected and how its spent at the end of the day. Sounds like an accountants job and they aren't renound for being JFK type characters

Owen

The problem with Enda is he's snooze worthy. His facial expression never changes, his voice is a long drawn on monotone drone, never changing in pitch or urgency, and what drives me mental is the way he accents the second syllable in every word. "Sign my con-TRACT!". He's perceived as a bogger, because he behaves like a bogger.

conorhal

Pappy o' daniel wrote: »

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly? .

Compared to a garden gnome frankly.....

Its just lazily repeated by the media and I dont think it stands up to scrutiny

What does not stand up to scrutiny is Enda Kenny. He apears on talk shows for what reason? I can only assume to present himself as an alternative leader for this country and to lay out his leadership CV.
Clearly people remain unconvinced, continuously unconvinced because despite repeated attempts on his part, he has never been able to comunicate his leadership skills or offer a clear and conscise alternative government policy, and that's a serious problem for his credibility and a valid concern for the electorate because if he can't communicate policy or inspire a following, what hope has he of effectively governing?
If the people see a man that can't lead his party or communicate it's message, how do you expect them to elect the man to lead his country?

What is consistant is FGers citing FG's poll lead over FF as a badge of Kenny's successful stuardship of the party, but I don't see it, as far as I'm concerned FG's success has more to do with ABFF's (anybody but FF) rather than their perception as a viable alternative.

People are tired of hearing the same ol party spiel, old party rhetoric and the same old political double talk, obfuscation and failure to answer a direct question. They want REAL leadership. And Kenny aint it.

Laminations

Mariana Curved Plantain wrote: »

I think it's a bit shallow of Irish politics, and indeed probably politics the world over, that we are always looking for this super-human who can transform a country into a Utopia while still being loved by your auntie and your ideal candidate to take for a pint.

It's like politics being a form of Pop Idol.
We really shouldn't give a damn if somone comes across as a bit of a bore and hasn't a fantastic smile. The real question is whether they can possibly run the country in an efficient manner while providing the services that country needs.
It's all down to taxes collected and how its spent at the end of the day. Sounds like an accountants job and they aren't renound for being JFK type characters

Agreed...but leaders (in any sphere) should be inspirational and good communicators

flutered

one thinks that a carboard cut out of him with an actor doing voice overs would have as much effect on the great unwashed

Colonel Sanders

Apologises for bringing up the Simpsons but whenever this is bandied around I always think of Mr Burns v Mary Bailey or Homer v Ray Paterson

I think Enda genuinely says to himself constantly 'I don't need to act the clown or be charismatic, who in their right mind would actually vote for FF'.

Unfortunately a quote of Joe Quimby's comes to mind about the electorate 'They're like trained seals, toss em a fish and watch em slap their fins together'

Liam Byrne

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The problem with Enda is he's snooze worthy. His facial expression never changes, his voice is a long drawn on monotone drone, never changing in pitch or urgency, and what drives me mental is the way he accents the second syllable in every word. "Sign my con-TRACT!". He's perceived as a bogger, because he behaves like a bogger.

What exactly is a "bogger" ? And why is "perceived as a bogger" wrong ?

Lots of old country folk have a hell of a lot more cop-on, and concept of right and wrong, and an appreciation of value for money than so-called "sophisticated" people.

And we can't forget that a certain "city slicker" drove us to ruin.

I don't give a bollox where someone's from, as long as they're ethical, fair, and can do their job.

Laminations wrote: »

Agreed...but leaders (in any sphere) should be inspirational and good communicators

We've never demanded that up to now. Why change ? Unless it suits FF's agenda to get people to talk about it.

Owen

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What exactly is a "bogger" ? And why is "perceived as a bogger" wrong ?

You know well what a bogger is. There's no right or wrong about it - and i didn't say there was anything wrong with it either. Unfortunately, if you're from the city, and show charisma, you'll get votes from the city and countryside. If you sound and act like you've stepped down from a Massey Ferguson, you'll get the countryside votes.

Irish politics are shallow. Bertie was far from honest, but the old dears all voted him in because he (In my mother's words) had a lovely smile about him, and wasn't the worst of them.

epgc3fyqirnbsx

Laminations wrote: »

Agreed...but leaders (in any sphere) should be inspirational and good communicators

Ideally yes.

Should we be so fortunate? Rarely...

Laminations

Liam Byrne wrote: »

We've never demanded that up to now. Why change ? Unless it suits FF's agenda to get people to talk about it.

We've never demande much, thats been our problem. Liam you dont need to worry about my priorities, i've made it known i place more credence on ethics and ability than charisma. And in case you thought otherwise, i dont think Brian 'hand in the pocket, couldn't case less' Cowen
Is a good communicator and all he inspires me to do is consider leaving the country.

flutered

we as a nation are so used to doing what we are/were told what to do that it will take a few more generations to get it out of our systems the develare mcquaid axis is still ingrained in a lot of minds

yoshytoshy

Kennys problem seems to be ,he has a front that he puts on in public.
Looking at richard bruton talking yesterday ,hes the opposite. He's straight talking and doesn't seem to be pre-occupied with issues.

I've never heard so many people use the word ,twat , to describe a person as I do kenny. That includes people who wouldn't have a bad word to say about anyone:D

No-one seems to have anything bad to say about bruton.

Liam Byrne

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Irish politics are shallow. Bertie was far from honest, but the old dears all voted him in because he (In my mother's words) had a lovely smile about him, and wasn't the worst of them.

Little did she know! :rolleyes:

Actually, interesting take on this in today's Irish Examiner where they talked about the Enda v George showdown.

While Bertie Ahern was famed for his man-of-the-people touch, his drive-by canvassing often seemed phoney and insincere at close hand, while his TV performances were carefully honed to radiate empathy and bonhomie

Which begs the obvious question; if journalists are aware of the fakeness, why don't they highlight it for those poor old dears who can't experience this "at close hand" ?

bmaxi

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I still think I'd prefer this to having someone spouting lies, PR spin, and bull****. and looking like they believe it.

So the OP does have a point.

It's unfortunately a sign of the standard of politics, however Obama had "charisma" and "goodwill" and it's only now that he's making any progress whatsoever.

So I'd gladly lose the charisma and the jokey con-man smugness and faux sincerity in return for someone who could actually do the job.

My point is, he's not believable and so doesn't inspire confidence. Ahern lied through his teeth for most of the time but he was able to pull it off and that's where the difference lies.
I'm not suggesting Kenny should follow in his footsteps, rather that until such times as he can convince people he is not lying through his teeth, he will never be a leader.

johnnyskeleton

Pappy o' daniel wrote: »

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly?

Richard Bruton. Bruton inspires confidence in the public because he's a plain talking, honest broker who knows business.

Kenny on the other hand is seen as a great organiser by those inside FG, but most people outside of FG don't see why Bruton is not the leader.

If FG wanted to actually win an election, I think Bruton as the parliamentary leader, Lee as the economic commentator and Kenny as the behind the scenes, keep it all together man would be a very powerful force.

But the current FG membership don't see it this way, and RB is too much of a gentleman to make a play for power.

But most of all, Kenny reminds people of the exact same gombeenism that FF stand for. Which is why they voted in FF in the last election - better the devil you know than the devil you don't as the saying goes.

jmayo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Richard Bruton. Bruton inspires confidence in the public because he's a plain talking, honest broker who knows business.

Kenny on the other hand is seen as a great organiser by those inside FG, but most people outside of FG don't see why Bruton is not the leader.

If FG wanted to actually win an election, I think Bruton as the parliamentary leader, Lee as the economic commentator and Kenny as the behind the scenes, keep it all together man would be a very powerful force.

But the current FG membership don't see it this way, and RB is too much of a gentleman to make a play for power.

But most of all, Kenny reminds people of the exact same gombeenism that FF stand for. Which is why they voted in FF in the last election - better the devil you know than the devil you don't as the saying goes.

I want Bruton to remain in Finance because like lenihan is actually showing in ff, you need a very strong finance minister.
I believe Kenny allows Bruton do his thing and that could be the best for all of us if they were in government.
If Burton was to be leader and taoiseach then he would spend half his time smoozing up to people, going to meeting etc and who would look after finance ?

And please FFS forget Lee.
All the rumblings that have come out of FG in the past few days is that Lee produced nothing, nada in his 9 months.
Lee did not come out the other day with any revolutionary policies and say these are what they wouldn't listen to or take on board.
No he just said they never came and asked me.
Jeeze talk about sounding like a petulent child.

I actually believe that FG discovered that the great economics commentator and expert they had procurred in a blaze of glory was just the former, a commentator.
All mouth and no trousers so to speak.

But still people persist with the myth that George Lee is some genius.
What exactly has he done ?
Well along with another famous RTE whinger he blew open the story that banks were overcharging their customers.
Well done great piece of investigative journalism.

He predicted that the government were running the country's economy into the ground with the construciton bubble and basing public spending increases on the resulting transactional taxes.
Fair play at least he was honest and didn't just follow the vested interests like the bank's puppy economists, but it doesn't make him a fecking economics genius.
I and a lot of other posters around here predicted the same thing. :rolleyes:
Does that make us economic experts FFS ?

Anyway back to Kenny.
I do believe he is putting on a facade so to speak, because anyone that has met him personally will say he is more natural.

ROS123

Why the fup do most people especially Fine Gael people and most especially FG TDs refer to him as ENDA. Is this a deliberate ploy to make us like him more to give him some credibility. Everytime I hear it, I just get more annoyed. Is it just me or does this annoy anyone else. By the way he has as much charisma as a cardboard cut out of himeslef anf I think if Bruton doesn't take over quickly, like in the next few months, those other muppets will get back in.

jmayo

ROS123 wrote: »

Why the fup do most people especially Fine Gael people and most especially FG TDs refer to him as ENDA. Is this a deliberate ploy to make us like him more to give him some credibility. Everytime I hear it, I just get more annoyed. Is it just me or does this annoy anyone else. By the way he has as much charisma as a cardboard cut out of himeslef anf I think if Bruton doesn't take over quickly, like in the next few months, those other muppets will get back in.

It is probably copying what ff did with bertie and how all the goms in this country promptly fell in love with the piece of sh**.

Right so put Bruton, who I would reckon appears to be the best possible finance minister out of all parties, in as taoiseach and put who exactly in his place ?
Perhaps if in coalition then have Eamon Gilmore or Joan Burton as finance minister ?
Might as well just give it to jack o'connor while you are at it :rolleyes:

Those other muppets will only get back if people (possibly like you) complain that they won't vote for FG becuase you don't like Kenny, because he is not charismatic enough and they wouldn't fancy going drinking with him.

We had charisma man and look where we are, f***ing up sh** creek with a leaky canoe and choc ice stick as the only paddle.

I think the Loyds decision to pull BOS/Hailfax out summed up just how bad our banking outlook and economy really is.

My ideal is Richard Bruton as Finance minister in a stand alone FG government.
If he is leader of FG then that won't happen.

He might become leader sadly just to appease the muppets who would rather harp on incessantly about FG's leader, rather than the leader of ff who happens to be the leader of the government that supposedly govern the country.
This would be the man also who on a scale of 1 to 100 has caused 100 times more damage to this country than Kenny and the entire front bench of FG have. :mad:

Sleepy

I'm pretty sure that this can be done but forgive my knowledge of parliamentary law if it can't:

Make Bruton party leader and let him be the "face" of the election. Then position himself as Finance Minister with Kenny acting as Taoiseach.

As our current government show, we don't directly ellect a Taoiseach, the majority of the Dail does that when forming the government.

Sulmac

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that this can be done but forgive my knowledge of parliamentary law if it can't:

Make Bruton party leader and let him be the "face" of the election. Then position himself as Finance Minister with Kenny acting as Taoiseach.

As our current government show, we don't directly ellect a Taoiseach, the majority of the Dail does that when forming the government.

That's exactly the idea I had in mind, and it can be done. Any TD can, in theory, be Taoiseach - party leader or not. The Taoiseach then nominates the rest of the cabinet, including the Finance Minister.

Problem is, would this sit well with the electorate? Doubtful.

jmayo

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that this can be done but forgive my knowledge of parliamentary law if it can't:

Make Bruton party leader and let him be the "face" of the election. Then position himself as Finance Minister with Kenny acting as Taoiseach.

As our current government show, we don't directly ellect a Taoiseach, the majority of the Dail does that when forming the government.

Problem with that is Bruton would be party leader anyway.
It is that as much as being Taoiseach that soaks up the time.

He would have to listen to TDs/Senators complainging he would have to resolve issues between party members, he would be expected to go round on the chicken dinner circuit, that Lee appeared to hate so much, to keep the party workers happy.

Who would chair parliamentary meetings involving finance decisions ?
Could you have taoiseach telling his party leader who was finance minsiter what to do in event of parliamentary disagreements ?

The leader of the country would not be the leader of the largest party in government ?

I think something like this has been done somewhere else as compromise between coalition partners ?

Sleepy

A temporary 'con the electorate' move so, have them switch again after the election...

And I realise how bad that sounds but the fact of it seems to be that the Irish electorate are so stupid they need to be conned at this stage.

johngalway

Bruton needs to stay in finance, forget Taoiseach, finance is where it's at in the state we're in, we need the best fella for the job in there.

I don't think FG should change leader to be honest. We weren't all that far away from winning the last election, and remember the base that FG was coming from at that election :eek:

Another reason I don't want a change is due to the bloodletting in the past. Fcuks sake, we had enough of that, there's always going to be ups and downs in politics but things are going reasonably well for FG, FF are running scared, don't think so? Why no by election in Donegal then? That's been outstanding a while now.

I like Kennys theory of having a team. It's worked very well for FG since the past meltdown. It may work as well for the country if given a chance.

I don't like this "better the divil you know" crap. I know what FF are like, lie, cheat, steal, buy elections - even when they can't afford to, and knew it. I pay my tax and I vote, and I'm most definately prepared to give FG a chance at the helm.

Nothing and no one is perfect but Ireland is a funny place. If people don't like a person, they almost automatically regard them as **** at their job and talentless to boot.

I'm interested to see how Enda get's on with being himself, strange statement but some good might come of it.

Sulmac

johngalway wrote: »

Bruton needs to stay in finance, forget Taoiseach, finance is where it's at in the state we're in, we need the best fella for the job in there.

I don't think FG should change leader to be honest. We weren't all that far away from winning the last election, and remember the base that FG was coming from at that election :eek:

Another reason I don't want a change is due to the bloodletting in the past. Fcuks sake, we had enough of that, there's always going to be ups and downs in politics but things are going reasonably well for FG, FF are running scared, don't think so? Why no by election in Donegal then? That's been outstanding a while now.

I like Kennys theory of having a team. It's worked very well for FG since the past meltdown. It may work as well for the country if given a chance.

I don't like this "better the divil you know" crap. I know what FF are like, lie, cheat, steal, buy elections - even when they can't afford to, and knew it. I pay my tax and I vote, and I'm most definately prepared to give FG a chance at the helm.

Nothing and no one is perfect but Ireland is a funny place. If people don't like a person, they almost automatically regard them as **** at their job and talentless to boot.

I'm interested to see how Enda get's on with being himself, strange statement but some good might come of it.

I agree completely with you, particularly the bit highlighted in bold. Enda is completely right to keep emphasising his front bench "team", which includes the likes of Bruton in Finance and Reilly (a real doctor, shock/horror :eek:) in Health. You just need to read their policies to see they know what they're doing... or, what they would be doing if they were in charge.

johnnyskeleton

jmayo wrote: »

I want Bruton to remain in Finance because like lenihan is actually showing in ff, you need a very strong finance minister.
I believe Kenny allows Bruton do his thing and that could be the best for all of us if they were in government.
If Burton was to be leader and taoiseach then he would spend half his time smoozing up to people, going to meeting etc and who would look after finance ?

The leader has as much a role in dictating the economic decisions of a country as the finance minister. Just because cowen isn't doing anything and Lenihan is doesn't mean that this is how it normally is. Under bertie, cowen did what he was told to do and it was bertie who really controlled the purse strings.

Bruton as the leader could do what a proper governmental leader could do and say "sorry constituents, I'm too busy looking after the country to go schmoozing". Do you think Churchill spent half his time schmoozing and going to non-war related meetings?

And Kenny can still go around schmoozing, but you don't need to be the head of government to be a good schmoozer.

jmayo wrote: »

And please FFS forget Lee.
All the rumblings that have come out of FG in the past few days is that Lee produced nothing, nada in his 9 months.
Lee did not come out the other day with any revolutionary policies and say these are what they wouldn't listen to or take on board.
No he just said they never came and asked me.
Jeeze talk about sounding like a petulent child.

I'm not surprized FG came out with these lines - it was either gut Lee straight away, or Lee would destroy them. It's easy to say that Lee has produced nothing, but what has Bruton produced? In fact, as I recall he voted FOR the bank guarantee, which IMO is the single most disasterous decision made in the last 4 years.

It seems to me that Lee is hated by people because he is seen as an upstart. That makes it easy to characterise him as a petulant child and easily dismiss him.

jmayo wrote: »

I actually believe that FG discovered that the great economics commentator and expert they had procurred in a blaze of glory was just the former, a commentator.
All mouth and no trousers so to speak.

I see it as the opposite - he wasn't allowed to say what he wanted and had to spout the usual party lines. Clearly he felt uncomfortable saying things that would garner votes for the party and abstaining from saying what FG would actually do when in power i.e. cut the **** out of it, but that's the political game FG/FF play, and he didn't want to be part of that dishonesty.

jmayo wrote: »

But still people persist with the myth that George Lee is some genius.
What exactly has he done ?
Well along with another famous RTE whinger he blew open the story that banks were overcharging their customers.
Well done great piece of investigative journalism.

What has bruton done? FG have been floundering about trying to grasp on to any vague ideology. I see no reason not to take Lee at his word when he says that he was silenced by the FG machine.

jmayo wrote: »

He predicted that the government were running the country's economy into the ground with the construciton bubble and basing public spending increases on the resulting transactional taxes.
Fair play at least he was honest and didn't just follow the vested interests like the bank's puppy economists, but it doesn't make him a fecking economics genius.
I and a lot of other posters around here predicted the same thing. :rolleyes:
Does that make us economic experts FFS ?

No, but it gives you standing to critise the government, which is what Lee did at a time few else were doing it (especially not the opposition). Who exactly is saying he is an economic genious? Do you not see that pointing out what the government is doing wrong and suggesting what they should do instead is a quality needed in a politician? We don't need genii we need competent honest brokers. It would be nice to have a world class econominst in government, but it would be much more realistic to ask for just a safe pair of hands. Indeed, by the standard you have set for Lee that he be some kind of genius you are preventing anyone half way competent from getting into power because you seem to be saying that because Lee was not an internationally recognised economic visionary he was not worthy to be in government.

You have to look for the best in a bad lot I'm afraid, otherwise you end up with the same old shameless duffers.

jmayo wrote: »

Anyway back to Kenny.
I do believe he is putting on a facade so to speak, because anyone that has met him personally will say he is more natural.

So? If he's the funniest guy in the world or a drunken mess off duty it doesn't matter one whit. The important thing is how he does the job, and he does it awfully.

johnnyskeleton

jmayo wrote: »

He might become leader sadly just to appease the muppets who would rather harp on incessantly about FG's leader, rather than the leader of ff who happens to be the leader of the government that supposedly govern the country.

What you fail to recognise is that Kenny's lack of Charisma in the current climate is more to do with him being seen as as much a slippery gombeen as anyone in FF so it makes sense that people see him as possessing all the bad characteristics of FF with the additional element of the unknown.

flutered

fg seem to have a habit of loosing elections, ff seem to have a habit of winning them, it is not policys that seem to win them imo, the is the face the party presents, until fg get their heads around this they will continue to lead the opposition.

Red_Marauder

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The leader has as much a role in dictating the economic decisions of a country as the finance minister. Just because cowen isn't doing anything and Lenihan is doesn't mean that this is how it normally is. Under bertie, cowen did what he was told to do and it was bertie who really controlled the purse strings.

Is that some sort of joke? It is well known that Bertie did not have control of the finance position during his time as Taoiseach, there are notable examples of decisions he didn't even know about (or seem to care about) up until close to, or maybe on the eve of, budget day.

I'm not surprized FG came out with these lines - it was either gut Lee straight away, or Lee would destroy them. It's easy to say that Lee has produced nothing, but what has Bruton produced?

Are you kidding? He is the main opposition focus in leinster House in relation to economic issues. He has produced a wealth of documents over the past eighteen months since this recession really started to bite/ What has he produced? Take Fine Gael's National Recovery Bank idea for example. You may agree or disagree with it, but for goodness sake how the hell can anyone who has been following politics recently reasonably ask 'what has he produced'?
http://www.finegael.org/upload/National%20Recovery%20Bank%2014-05-09.pdf

or this bill instigated by FG

http://www.finegael.org/upload/file/Central%20Bank%20and%20Financial%20Services%20Authority%20of%20Ireland%20Bill%202009.pdf

I see it as the opposite - he wasn't allowed to say what he wanted and had to spout the usual party lines.

George Lee never said he wasnt allowed say what he wanted. He never said he disagreed with party policy once.
He seems to have never said anything to begin with.

I see no reason not to take Lee at his word when he says that he was silenced by the FG machine.

Where did he say he was silenced? Link?

It would be nice to have a world class econominst in government, but it would be much more realistic to ask for just a safe pair of hands.

Richard Bruton is both in my opinion.

johnnyskeleton

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Is that some sort of joke? It is well known that Bertie did not have control of the finance position during his time as Taoiseach, there are notable examples of decisions he didn't even know about (or seem to care about) up until close to, or maybe on the eve of, budget day.

The trouble with things that are well known is that they seem to be notably lacking in proof. I don't doubt for a minute that Bertie was the architect of FF's new economic policy. Perhaps there were details in the budget that he didn't know (or more likely pretended for politicial reasons not to know about), but he took social partnership to the next level, he ran the FF tent at galway races, he presided over soft touch regulation, he championed the ever expanding public sector. Granted, none of these things were his original idea as such, but he took those balls and ran with them.

Crucially, if a finance minister was not doing what bertie wanted him to do, well it was off to the back benches (or brussels) with them. And living up to his soubriquet, the teflon don, people seem to think that it was the finance mininsters who made all the rubbish decisions, and that bertie was just a grand ole fellow.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Are you kidding? He is the main opposition focus in leinster House in relation to economic issues.

Interesting argument - that Bruton is better than Lee because he was put in the position of main opposition focus on economic issues. That doesn't mean Bruton did anything better than Lee, just that he was given the opportunity to do so. Not a particularly good job of it either as he voted for the guarantee, was like a headless chicken when Anglo was nationalised and only started to put the boot in re: NAMA when public opinion was already way over to his side.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

He has produced a wealth of documents over the past eighteen months since this recession really started to bite/ What has he produced?

Yes what has he personally produced? If Lee is to be criticised for not going on a solo run, what has Bruton done in his own name as opposed to the policies set by FG committee?

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Take Fine Gael's National Recovery Bank idea for example. You may agree or disagree with it, but for goodness sake how the hell can anyone who has been following politics recently reasonably ask 'what has he produced'?
http://www.finegael.org/upload/National%20Recovery%20Bank%2014-05-09.pdf

Strange, I though Kenny was taking credit for that one - in any event it was put forward as FG's alternative, not Bruton's alternative. But since we're talking about Bruton being the focus of FG's economic policy, was it not his job to convince people that this National Recovery Bank was a viable alternative to NAMA? Christ, he couldn't even convince other members of FG like Fitzgerald and Dukes (not that I'm saying they are the brightest sparks by any standard).

Red_Marauder wrote: »

or this bill instigated by FG

http://www.finegael.org/upload/file/Central%20Bank%20and%20Financial%20Services%20Authority%20of%20Ireland%20Bill%202009.pdf

By FG or by Bruton? I think you've missed the point - if Lee is to be criticised for not putting forward his own policies independent of FG (i.e. stepping out of line), why is Bruton being praised for the ideas that FG have?

But what is the story with that bill? Sounds like a soft political ploy to me - "let's stop them nasty debt collectors" etc etc.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

George Lee never said he wasnt allowed say what he wanted. He never said he disagreed with party policy once.
He seems to have never said anything to begin with.

Where did he say he was silenced? Link?

He resigned because he was not being allowed to provide input into economic policy. He said as such in his resignation letter. Once he entered politics he "dissappeared into the thickets of the Fine Gael backbenches" as Vincent Browne put it. Irish politics does not allow for individual party members to have their own economic policies, so to suggest that George Lee would have been perfectly able to sit in the back benches disagreeing with party policy and/or putting his own views out there is a non-runner.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Richard Bruton is both in my opinion.

You think Richard Bruton is a world class economist?

I look at FG and despair - they could be pushing an open door and instead they are getting stuck in the doorframe.

Red_Marauder

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Interesting argument - that Bruton is better than Lee because he was put in the position of main opposition focus on economic issues.

You need to read the post you quoted. That was a response to the question "what has Burton produced". Not an argument that Lee is better than Bruton - that theory was never tested because Lee remained quite silent while with Fine Gael post bye election.

That doesn't mean Bruton did anything better than Lee, just that he was given the opportunity to do so.

What opportunity? You think Richard Bruton sulked quietly in the canteens of Mount Street before one day John Bruton walked up to him and asked him to be a Minister? You think he shrank into the background while Enda Kenny was picking his team? Get real. Shrinking is exactly what George Lee did upon his election. He sulked around and shrank into the background, waiting to be asked, and waiting to be approached. Where was the initiative?

Dr James O'Reilly has made the point that he himself was headhunted by the Fine Gael party to run for the Oireachtas. But he was keen to point out that he didn't expect any automatic input, he went giving it, and in his case decided to "canvass damn hard" for the health portfolio.

Not a particularly good job of it either as he voted for the guarantee

So did the majority of the Dáil - it's another thread. Lots of us agree with it.

Yes what has he personally produced? If Lee is to be criticised for not going on a solo run, what has Bruton done in his own name as opposed to the policies set by FG committee?

Bruton is the finance spokesman. It would be pretty stupid to put out one statement as a finance spokesman and another statement as a TD.

Putting out statements privately is an option available to everyone, but it only makes sense for those who are in the backbenches of the party to do so.
Furthermore, Lee didn't even have to put out some statements - because he was given a job most other backbenchers would relish - he was given responsibility for the party's economic policy forming committee. Why didn't he chair any meetings?

He was due to travel to the OECD to discuss economic strategy last week. He quit first.

Strange, I though Kenny was taking credit for that one - in any event it was put forward as FG's alternative, not Bruton's alternative.

Do you even understand how parties operate? The finance spokesman is the spokesman for the party - of course it goes out in the party's name, it isn't the damn constituency newsletter.

He resigned because he was not being allowed to provide input into economic policy.

No the difference is he did not have input - not that he wasn't allowed input. Nobody ever stopped him from coming forward according to himself.

Irish politics does not allow for individual party members to have their own economic policies, so to suggest that George Lee would have been perfectly able to sit in the back benches disagreeing with party policy and/or putting his own views out there is a non-runner.

Lots of TDs break away on points of interest, it happens all the time. Sometimes they lose the whip, sometimes they don't. He could have sent up a private members motion like lots of TDs do, why didn't he?

Furthermore, Lee hasn't actually named any policy issue at all that he opposed. He seems to be perfectly happy with or perfectly careless about whatever Fine Gael policies that have come about since last summer.

No private motions, no economic meetings chaired, no responses to letters by fellow TDs, no integration with the parliamentary party, no policy documents printed, very little Dáil contribution, his NAMA speech overshadowed by a far more impresive speech by Ciarán O'Donnell - no substance at all in George Lee's 4 months of Dáil time.
His fanboys would want to judge his contribution and abilities without the rose tinited glasses perhaps.

jmayo

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

The leader has as much a role in dictating the economic decisions of a country as the finance minister. Just because cowen isn't doing anything and Lenihan is doesn't mean that this is how it normally is. Under bertie, cowen did what he was told to do and it was bertie who really controlled the purse strings.

Bruton as the leader could do what a proper governmental leader could do and say "sorry constituents, I'm too busy looking after the country to go schmoozing". Do you think Churchill spent half his time schmoozing and going to non-war related meetings?

1. Churchill wasn't in Ireland
2. There was a f***ing war on for his first term as PM.

As leader you can't spend your time holed up in Dept of Finance looking through polices, managing them and making decisions.

And you mention bertie, the only decisions he had to make were where to spread the cash.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

And Kenny can still go around schmoozing, but you don't need to be the head of government to be a good schmoozer.

I'm not surprized FG came out with these lines - it was either gut Lee straight away, or Lee would destroy them. It's easy to say that Lee has produced nothing, but what has Bruton produced? In fact, as I recall he voted FOR the bank guarantee, which IMO is the single most disasterous decision made in the last 4 years.

Did Bruton and FG have a choice in the bank guarantee at that very time ?
They are told there were emergency late night meetings, they are told there is going to be meltdown with banks going bust and probable run on others.
They didn't know the full story, how could they as they were in opposition.
They were probably fed the facts that government, Dept of Finance, CB and IFSRA wanted them to know.

It was an easier decision for labour since they are smaller party and not primary opposition party.
FG would have been forced into agreeing to basic proposal for good of country.
Look at their ideas, policies and concerns post guarantee where they have questioned the way the banks are handled and the way NAMA has been brought about.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It seems to me that Lee is hated by people because he is seen as an upstart. That makes it easy to characterise him as a petulant child and easily dismiss him.

I see it as the opposite - he wasn't allowed to say what he wanted and had to spout the usual party lines. Clearly he felt uncomfortable saying things that would garner votes for the party and abstaining from saying what FG would actually do when in power i.e. cut the **** out of it, but that's the political game FG/FF play, and he didn't want to be part of that dishonesty.

FFS will you ever grow up and stop believing
celebrity = ability.

Lee did f all in his time in the Dáil and in FG.

What is it he wasn't allowed say ?
Why didn't he say it since he came out and resigned ?
He had NOTHING TO SAY and that is the crux of it.

He was a commentator who could pick holes in other poeple's policies but couldn't it appears come up with his own.
He comes out claiming they didn't like him.
If you join any organisation or enter any institution you have to make an effort to integrate (and no not saying you sell out or beome mindless moron as he would have you believe) but he didn't appear to make any effort.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What has bruton done? FG have been floundering about trying to grasp on to any vague ideology. I see no reason not to take Lee at his word when he says that he was silenced by the FG machine.

That comment says a lot more about you and a lot less about Bruton.

Yeah George Lee is a genius I suppose because wait for it, he called the economy right and isn't he on the TV a lot :rolleyes:

What else is Lee going to say ?
I couldn't hack it perhaps ?

johnnyskeleton

Red_Marauder wrote: »

You need to read the post you quoted. That was a response to the question "what has Burton produced". Not an argument that Lee is better than Bruton - that theory was never tested because Lee remained quite silent while with Fine Gael post bye election.

Which was in turn a rhetorical reply to jmayo's argument that Bruton is better in finance because Lee has produced nothing.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

What opportunity? You think Richard Bruton sulked quietly in the canteens of Mount Street before one day John Bruton walked up to him and asked him to be a Minister? You think he shrank into the background while Enda Kenny was picking his team? Get real. Shrinking is exactly what George Lee did upon his election. He sulked around and shrank into the background, waiting to be asked, and waiting to be approached. Where was the initiative?

What exactly would you like him to have done? Insisted upon becoming a FG spokesperson, or making public statements that undermine the party's position? I resent your comment that I should "Get real" when you think that a backbencher can say whatever they want whenever they want and still remain part of the parliamentary party (in Ireland anyway; in the U.K. it is possible, but they have a different system to us).

Red_Marauder wrote: »

So did the majority of the Dáil - it's another thread. Lots of us agree with it.

That's fair enough. My views on Bruton will always be linked to his pathetic opposition to the guarantee, but if you agree with it I can see that you would not hold it against him.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Bruton is the finance spokesman. It would be pretty stupid to put out one statement as a finance spokesman and another statement as a TD.

Or is it possible that I'm right and the party has one policy which they stick to and they don't want individual TD's putting out their own policies? Don't get me wrong, I can see the necessity of same, but the suggestion that Lee failed to state what he would have done differently is a non starter as that is just not how party politics functions in Ireland.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Putting out statements privately is an option available to everyone, but it only makes sense for those who are in the backbenches of the party to do so.
Furthermore, Lee didn't even have to put out some statements - because he was given a job most other backbenchers would relish - he was given responsibility for the party's economic policy forming committee. Why didn't he chair any meetings?

Really? Do you think that if FG said there should be tax cuts and Lee came out saying that tax should be increased he would be free to do this without consequence? Or if he said that the HSE budget had to be dramatically cut thatn your man James wouldn't have something serious to say about it?

As regards the committee, his problem there was that he was put in as the chairman/spokesperson of the committee and had little power to affect policy.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Do you even understand how parties operate? The finance spokesman is the spokesman for the party - of course it goes out in the party's name, it isn't the damn constituency newsletter.
No the difference is he did not have input - not that he wasn't allowed input. Nobody ever stopped him from coming forward according to himself.

Do you? Because you seem to be suggesting that Irish political parties are perfectly fine with backbenchers expressing their own views whenever they want. I don't blame FG for wanting to keep such a tight reign on things, because if some backbenchers did come out and say something different to the party policy FF would be all over them. Worse, FG was a serverely fractured party before Kenny came in. Kenny is loved by the FG faithful for uniting all the strands. But with that unity came loss of the freedom to have their own manifestos. Look how Vardakar has been reigned in. They have a united party now where input from most of the various views is taken into account. This is a necessary political step, and it means that each TD can't have their own say publically, but instead contribute to the policy of the party. It was this latter aspect of party politics that Lee didn't like. As to how he was actually treated in FG, I don't know. However, I don't doubt that Lee is telling it as it is when he says that his views fell on deaf ears.

Equally I wasn't surprised that FG are trying to gut him because it is either gut him or get gutted. AFAIK, the idea that Lee never contributed anything came from a throwaway comment made by olivia mitchell on monday lunchtime's newstalk.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Lots of TDs break away on points of interest, it happens all the time. Sometimes they lose the whip, sometimes they don't. He could have sent up a private members motion like lots of TDs do, why didn't he?

True, he could have merely resigned the whip as protest. Or he could have taken the offer of a front bench position by Kenny. And sure, occasionally someone in FG will break from the party line on some issue or another. But to suggest that he could have gone on a solo run on economic issues when that is the most important issue at the moment is something I can't believe. Having a private memebers motion to table his differing economic views doesn't make sense to me.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

Furthermore, Lee hasn't actually named any policy issue at all that he opposed. He seems to be perfectly happy with or perfectly careless about whatever Fine Gael policies that have come about since last summer.

Would you be happier if he left by saying "FG's economic policy is a shambles and if they get into power they will drive the economy further into recession"?

Red_Marauder wrote: »

No private motions, no economic meetings chaired, no responses to letters by fellow TDs, no integration with the parliamentary party, no policy documents printed, very little Dáil contribution, his NAMA speech overshadowed by a far more impresive speech by Ciarán O'Donnell - no substance at all in George Lee's 4 months of Dáil time.
His fanboys would want to judge his contribution and abilities without the rose tinited glasses perhaps.

That's quite the character slur there. If you think that because FG have some policies that makes Richard Bruton a great finance spokesman and because George Lee hasn't gone on a solo run he has no economic policies then bully for you. However, that does not make your views any more realistic than mine, nor does the fact that I don't believe that make me a "fanboy" or that I wear rose tinted glasses.

For what its worth, I am not a fan of FG in any way, and was dissappointed when George Lee left RTE to become a FG politician. However, it did make me consider the possibility of voting for FG next time. But, and like it or lump it, I think the manner in which he left FG will only highlight the problems in FG.

johnnyskeleton

jmayo wrote: »

1. Churchill wasn't in Ireland
2. There was a f***ing war on for his first term as PM.

1. Churchill was an example of a good leader. I know "Ireland is different" etc etc, but surely you can see how we are lacking in parliamentary leadership.
2. War & economic crises are different in many ways but are similar in one important respect - they are an urgent and serious issue that needs to be dealt with competently and decisively.

jmayo wrote: »

As leader you can't spend your time holed up in Dept of Finance looking through polices, managing them and making decisions.

If the economy is the most important issue then yes, yes you can. After all, isn't Obama constantly working on the economy with only the occasional nod to Iraq etc?

jmayo wrote: »

And you mention bertie, the only decisions he had to make were where to spread the cash.

LOL. Economics is the study of the distribution of wealth, and you're saying Bertie didn't have any economic input because the only decisions he had to make were where to spread the cash. When you reduce it like that, all economic decisions are decisions on where to spead the cash. Arguably you could say that fiscal policy is concerned with collecting rather than spreading the cash, but in politicial terms tax cuts/breaks could fall into your definition of speading the cash.

jmayo wrote: »

Did Bruton and FG have a choice in the bank guarantee at that very time ?

Yes. He spent half an hour criticising the government, then voted yes to the guarantee. Grow a spine FFS.

jmayo wrote: »

They are told there were emergency late night meetings, they are told there is going to be meltdown with banks going bust and probable run on others.
They didn't know the full story, how could they as they were in opposition.
They were probably fed the facts that government, Dept of Finance, CB and IFSRA wanted them to know.

Since when is not knowing what is going on an excuse in politics? It is this "Act dumb until it is our time to shine" policy which keeps FG in eternal opposition IMO.

jmayo wrote: »

Look at their ideas, policies and concerns post guarantee where they have questioned the way the banks are handled and the way NAMA has been brought about.

Criticisms by FG of NAMA are a good thing, but George Lee said nothing of substance? Make up your mind.

jmayo wrote: »

FFS will you ever grow up and stop believing
celebrity = ability.

One sign of being grown up is not suggesting that other people "grow up". Another is not reporting a post for borderline personal abuse. I do not believe celebrity = abillity and don't know why you want to tar me as such.

Lee did f all in his time in the Dáil and in FG.

jmayo wrote: »

What is it he wasn't allowed say ?
Why didn't he say it since he came out and resigned ?
He had NOTHING TO SAY and that is the crux of it.

See answers to Red_Marauder above.

jmayo wrote: »

He was a commentator who could pick holes in other poeple's policies but couldn't it appears come up with his own.

Would you accept that not wasting taxpayers money on NAMA is an idea? This view that politicians must do something - anything - to stop the crisis is why we have NAMAs. The reality is that we need to accept our position, let the market correct while at the same time ameliorating the harshest parts of the slow unwinding process.

jmayo wrote: »

He comes out claiming they didn't like him.
If you join any organisation or enter any institution you have to make an effort to integrate (and no not saying you sell out or beome mindless moron as he would have you believe) but he didn't appear to make any effort.

I agree that you have to compromise, especially in politics. George Lee was not prepared to compromise. That's unfortunate but we are where we are. But to suggest that he is a petulant child for deciding to quit rather than stay in the party shows no regard for what he did - quit on principle. He decided that he was not prepared to be a simple mouthpiece for whatever FG policy was without them listening to his views. They are the actions of an honest man. He did not want to stay in the Irish political system, so if you say that he couldn't hack it then I can't deny that. If you say that he was naieve to expect that he could change things I also agree with that. This is the reality of Irish politics which I don't dispute. But to suggest that he was a petulant child because he wanted to change things and found that he was worn down by the pigs at the trough is to do him a great disservice.

jmayo wrote: »

That comment says a lot more about you and a lot less about Bruton.

That's quite an oblique comment, what exactly do you mean? I can only assume you mean that it shows that I trust Lee more than I trust the FG party. Yeah, that's true.

jmayo wrote: »

Yeah George Lee is a genius I suppose because wait for it, he called the economy right and isn't he on the TV a lot :rolleyes:

Again with the straw man arguments. You were the one who suggested that he wasn't a genius. My point was that if you expect a genius in politics you will be dissappointed. You are setting the bar at a ridiculous level, misinterpreting what I say, employing sarcasm and then using roll eyes smilies to contradict a point that no one is making. No one is saying Lee is a genius. But I am saying that he was a safe pair of hands. We need a safe pair of hands in politics, and less of the gombeenery. Your comments suggest that we can only have gombeens or genii in government, thus insuring that there will always be room at the trough.

jmayo wrote: »

What else is Lee going to say ?
I couldn't hack it perhaps ?

What else are FG going to say? "Yeah, we resented him and his fresh ideas so we marginalised him, but it's ok because there's no room for an honest man in politics."

Red_Marauder

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What exactly would you like him to have done? Insisted upon becoming a FG spokesperson

Yes!

, or making public statements that undermine the party's position?

If he's not being listened to, Yes!

Fine Gael wouldn't dare oppose George Lee in public. You might as well have given Mother Teresa a wedgie.

I resent your comment that I should "Get real" when you think that a backbencher can say whatever they want whenever they want and still remain part of the parliamentary party (in Ireland anyway; in the U.K. it is possible, but they have a different system to us).

From the top of my head... Lucinda Creighton has publicly criticised Enda Kenny just recently. Bernard Durkan didn't agree with Fine Gael scrapping the Seanad, and still doesn't. It happens a lot.

Or is it possible that I'm right and the party has one policy which they stick to and they don't want individual TD's putting out their own policies?

Of course they don't want individual TDs putting out their own policies. Do you understand the meaning of the term 'political party'?
But that is not to say that individual TDs must comply with party desire or otherwise.

And what did George Lee ever disagree with anyway?

Really? Do you think that if FG said there should be tax cuts and Lee came out saying that tax should be increased he would be free to do this without consequence?

Since it's all hypothetical, I would give an educated guess that Fine Gael would pander to George Lee's pontifications because that is what the public wanted. That's why he was elected.

As regards the committee, his problem there was that he was put in as the chairman/spokesperson of the committee and had little power to affect policy.

The committee was all about policy - that was what they were to discuss.

The fact that he didn't convene one single meeting of a committee he chaired completely flies in the face of the notion that he was given no opportunity for input.

However, I don't doubt that Lee is telling it as it is when he says that his views fell on deaf ears.

Explain what views you are referring to here. What views fell on deaf ears?

Having a private memebers motion to table his differing economic views doesn't make sense to me.

What differing economic views are you referring to here? He said there was no policy issue that he disagreed with to bring him to this decision.

However, that does not make your views any more realistic than mine, nor does the fact that I don't believe that make me a "fanboy" or that I wear rose tinted glasses.

In fairness, you are referring to mystical policy disagreements and imagined complaints falling on imaginary deaf ears. Your perception of the situation is very much unrealistic.

Aidric

This line from the Tribune gave me a chuckle yesterday.
http://www.tribune.ie/magazine/features/article/2010/feb/14/put-your-hands-up-enda-through-a-nice-blond-rinse/

if he's spoofing, Enda breaks out the most amazing rictus grin – a pained expression that registers somewhere between mild terror and severe Bell's palsy. As poker faces go, it's a loser.

the_syco

jmayo wrote: »

I think the Loyds decision to pull BOS/Hailfax out summed up just how bad our banking outlook and economy really is.

As opposed to having to do so because they were ordered to do so?

Liam Byrne

Aidric wrote: »

This line from the Tribune gave me a chuckle yesterday.
http://www.tribune.ie/magazine/features/article/2010/feb/14/put-your-hands-up-enda-through-a-nice-blond-rinse/

if he's spoofing, Enda breaks out the most amazing rictus grin – a pained expression that registers somewhere between mild terror and severe Bell's palsy. As poker faces go, it's a loser.

At least there's an "if" in there - that puts him ahead of most politicians.

I'd prefer that grin to the smug chuckle of another two-faced individual when he dismissively laughs his head off and uses it to deflect the relevant issue while "chatting" to an FF hack on Prime Time TV about his actions under a former corrupt boss of his.

Annasopra

just listened to Newstalk - they had a recording of Enda shouting in Donegal

Liam Byrne

Johnnymcg wrote: »

just listened to Newstalk - they had a recording of Enda shouting in Donegal

I think he's going to lose what credibility he had by trying this - it's too much of a change too suddenly.

He'd be better off speaking to the media to get them to cover the fact that FF have appointed O'Donoghue to the committee to the bank enquiry committee and other dodgy stuff, rather than pandering to those who think shouting is effective.

LostinBlanch

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I think he's going to lose what credibility he had by trying this - it's too much of a change too suddenly.

Well I heard it too, and he's lost any credibility he's had with me after hearing that crap, and I'm someone who was likely to vote for FG in the next election. He sounds desperate, and desperation isn't a good look.

Seriously he's a major liability for FG going into any election. They really should be home and hosed by now, but are struggling with him in charge. FG loyalists may disagree but that's how I see it.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

He'd be better off speaking to the media to get them to cover the fact that FF have appointed O'Donoghue to the committee to the bank enquiry committee and other dodgy stuff, rather than pandering to those who think shouting is effective.

You're right, continually show up FF cronyism and corruption, and Greens becoming more than willing accomplices in this that has us where we are now.

parasite

shouting in the Dáil today, embarrassing really
should have stuck with 'unreal' Enda

mike65

Enda is now roaring and shouting in the Dail, such as sudden change in behaviour makes him sound like a fool. He is a bit like unfunny rural cousin of Colin Hunt on the Fast Show.

Joyce Country

Pappy o' daniel wrote: »

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly? Brian Cowen, Willie o'Dea, Gormley, Mary Harney? None of these people could be called charismatic.
Its just lazily repeated by the media and I dont think it stands up to scrutiny.

The only reason Kenny looks so bad is not because of the FF'ers listed above but it's because Eamon Gilmore outperforms him every single major debate. Enda > Cowen but Gilmore destroys both of them in terms of credible public speaking.

ajdb

Pappy o' daniel wrote: »

I keep hearing this over and over, but I ask myself he is lacking charisma compared to who exactly? Brian Cowen, Willie o'Dea, Gormley, Mary Harney? None of these people could be called charismatic.
Its just lazily repeated by the media and I dont think it stands up to scrutiny.

IMHO Gilmore comes across better than Kenny.

With regards to being the FG party leader - he's terrible. A monkey could've been the FG party leader over the last few years and their votes would've gone up. Enda didn't come up with any winning strategic plans that caused voters to change - it was FFs' blatant incompetence.

Aidric

mike65 wrote: »

Enda is now roaring and shouting in the Dail, such as sudden change in behaviour makes him sound like a fool. He is a bit like unfunny rural cousin of Colin Hunt on the Fast Show.

I heard that. I mean really who is he trying to cod?

LostinBlanch

Aidric wrote: »

I heard that. I mean really who is he trying to cod?

Exactly, like I said before it smacks of desperation, and that's not good when he's trying to project an image suitable of getting him elected as Taoiseach.

I'd be very interested to see the results of the next poll and seeing how him "being himself" runs with the public. I suspect his numbers will be down . . . again.

His handlers must be groaning in the background with their heads in their hands.

Trotter

Sure didn't Cowan defend the bould Willie with plenty of charisma, and his 2i/c fended off the Ryanair threat with buckets of bumbling charisma too.

We don't need charisma. We might like charisma, but we don't need charisma.

We have a Green party thats nodding their head like a dog in a back window.
We have a Minister for Defence that has an arrogance about him thats shocking me when I thought couldn't be shocked anymore.
We have a minister for enterprise that looks more in charge of the starship enterprise than the department of enterprise.

We need accountability, talent, and honesty. Does Kenny provide these things? I'm not sure. Do we need to worry about his charisma? No.