Getting money back paypal via visa

makeorbrake

I bought an electronic item from a vendor in China. Its faulty. I have contacted them and they will replace but posting back is at my cost. Not only that but I have read that its quite possible that I get another faulty product next time.
Bought with paypal via visa.
Whats the best way to tackle this??

ttm

First off how much did you pay?

If not much then write it off.

Only safe way you can send an item back is registered post which will add to the cost if not registered the seller doesn't have to admit to getting the item back so may not send a replacement item faulty or otherwise.

jor el

The bank won't just refund the money because you don't want the expense of returning the item. This is the risk you take when you buy cheap electronics on eBay.

Follow the correct procedure, and use Paypal resolution center if necessary.

makeorbrake

ttm wrote: »

First off how much did you pay?

€175.

jor el wrote:

This is the risk you take when you buy cheap electronics on eBay.

Didn't buy on eBay - bought direct from vendor using paypal via Visa - but same difference I guess.
Someone I know is going up North in a couple of weeks so will get them to send it back registered post.
Thanks all.

RasTa

You aren't covered btw if he decides not to refund ye.

makeorbrake

RasTa wrote: »

You aren't covered btw if he decides not to refund ye.

Well, he's supposed to be replacing rather than refunding.
Anyways, do you have any practical advice on how to proceed? Was there any point in me paying a few dollars extra to pay via paypal?

ttm

makeorbrake wrote: »

Well, he's supposed to be replacing rather than refunding.
Anyways, do you have any practical advice on how to proceed? Was there any point in me paying a few dollars extra to pay via paypal?

Your only advantage is that the seller hasn't got your cedit card details, that would be good enough for me.

Check with your credit card company to find out about how you go about a charge back and what would be justification, might not be relevant but only way to find out is ask, time is an issue so you might as well find out what they are now rather than when its too late.

RoadKillTs

Your only advantage is that the seller hasn't got your cedit card details, that would be good enough for me.

Paypal have extended there payment protection to purchases outside of eBay. (Since November gone) so the OP should be covered.

Link

ttm

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Paypal have extended there payment protection to purchases outside of eBay. (Since November gone) so the OP should be covered.

Link

But the seller has promised to replace the item which could easily be part of the "traditional" drag it out as long as you can scam. Even if the replacement is good then I would guess that will take up as a minimum 6 weeks from the intitial payment, if they drag it out a bit longer and send the same item back after pretending not to have it for a week or so, it will be long enough to time out some methods of cash recovery.

So OP needs to open a dispute if he can or check up about a charge back sooner rather than later.

Checking your link the only PayPal option seems to be a SNAD (signaficantly not as described) and we'd need to know more of what the problem with the item is to know if thats relevant. Fake, bad design, poor quality? If its a fake then don't even send it back get on to your bank as any replacement will be the same.

RoadKillTs

Very true. The old stall the ball while the 45 days runs out
Paypal really should increase that to 90 days in fairness.

makeorbrake

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Very true. The old stall the ball while the 45 days runs out
Paypal really should increase that to 90 days in fairness.

thanks guys. I told him i would have to file with paypal if he didnt send a new box. He gave me some guff about it being chinese new year! Have registered complaint with paypal and will report back on outcome.

curly from cork

had to use the pay pal resoltion centre recently, different i know as i never received the goods, but found pay pal to be excellent. money refunded within about 4 weeks.

RasTa

RoadKillTs wrote: »

Paypal have extended there payment protection to purchases outside of eBay. (Since November gone) so the OP should be covered.

Link

That's only for NR. If you get the item and it's faulty then it's between you and the seller to sort it out.

RasTa

makeorbrake wrote: »

Was there any point in me paying a few dollars extra to pay via paypal?

There shouldn't be as there is no way you should have paid more because the money was sent via PayPal.

ttm

RasTa wrote: »

That's only for NR. If you get the item and it's faulty then it's between you and the seller to sort it out.

So which is the relevant bit of the PayPal User agreement that says that, I followed the link above to this one sorry its the US one (someone else can find the relevant one if its different, having read this one though I've almost given up the will to live) and found this for off eBay purchases.....

13.5 PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy

1. What is the PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy? It is PayPal’s process to help you resolve a problem directly with the seller through the PayPal Resolution Center for purchases that are not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection.
   The PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy is similar to PayPal Buyer Protection in that it enables buyers to file Disputes for Items Not Received (INR), or for items that are Significantly Not as Described (SNAD). By filing a Dispute, you can communicate with the seller and attempt to resolve the problem. If you are unable to resolve the problem, you may escalate an Item Not Received (INR) Dispute to a Claim – but you may not escalate a Significantly Not as Described Dispute to a Claim.You may not file a dispute for a Personal Payment.
   Even though you may escalate an Item Not Received Dispute to a Claim, you are not guaranteed recovery. If the Claim is decided in your favor, your recovery is limited to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s Account.
2. What is the process for the Buyer Complaint Policy? Similar to PayPal Buyer Protection, you must file a Dispute in the PayPal Resolution Center within 45 days of the date you sent the payment. Once you have done so, you should attempt to resolve the Dispute directly with the seller.
3. What happens if I am unable to resolve the Dispute directly with the seller? You may escalate the Dispute to a Claim within 20 days of the date you filed the Dispute. PayPal will make a final decision for some - but not all - Claims. You should not escalate a Dispute for Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) to a Claim because PayPal will not make a decision on a SNAD Claim under the PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy.
4. What if PayPal makes a final decision in my favor? If PayPal makes a final decision in your favor, we will collect any available funds in the seller’s PayPal balance at that time. However, recovery is not guaranteed and is limited only to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller’s Account. Any amounts collected from the seller will be placed in your Account.

SNAD seems to be inculded?

Edit..... added this........

OK sofound the Irish PayPal User Agreement and section 13.5 seems to say the same thing and includes SNAD.

I may be wrong but a faulty item is a SNAD if you were sold a working item?

Also found this interesting off topic but still interesting

13.9 Relationship between PayPal’s protection programs and Chargebacks

Credit card chargeback rights, if they apply, are broader than PayPal’s protection programs. Chargeback rights may be filed more than 45 days after the payment, may cover unsatisfactory items even if they do not qualify as SNAD, and may cover intangible items.

RasTa

13.1 How am I protected if I have a problem with a purchase?

PayPal has two programs to help protect you:

PayPal Buyer Protection (for eligible items purchased on eBay)

PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy (for all other items purchased on or off eBay)

And in the Buyer Complaint policy it states

you may escalate an Item Not Received (INR) Dispute to a Claim – but you may not escalate a Significantly Not as Described Dispute to a Claim

ttm

What have said all along..... OP should check with his credit card company about how and when he can initiate a chargeback.

RoadKillTs

That's only for NR. If you get the item and it's faulty then it's between you and the seller to sort it out.

Thats strange because I opened a SNAD claim for a purchase outside of eBay.
Its ongoing at the moment.

UPDATE: Claim was closed.

We have completed our investigation of this case. No further action is required by you at this time. We have denied this claim. As stated in our User Agreement, PayPal's Buyer Complaint Policy only applies to the shipment of goods, not to disputes about the attributes or quality of the goods received. We have noted your claim in the seller's record. The seller's account privileges will be limited if excessive complaints are received.

RasTa

Yeah you can open a claim but it's a tease. It just closes straight away when you try and escalate the matter to PayPal.

makeorbrake

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah you can open a claim but it's a tease. It just closes straight away when you try and escalate the matter to PayPal.

Yes, this was my experience. I have some time to put in the visa chargeback request. At the moment, the vendor reckons he's on vacation due to chinese new year :rolleyes: and will sort it when he gets back on the 23rd. I still have plenty of time to submit visa claim so will wait until the 23rd. Would make life easier if he would just stick a fully functional unit in the post.

makeorbrake

Just an update on this.

I went through my bank (halifax) as i paid with their visa debit card. Having been passed about a bit and promised callbacks, etc, they say they are under no obligation to assist in any way. They suggested going through paypal (as i had paid paypal with visa) - an avenue I have already exhausted.

Am i being palmed off here or does visa not provide any form of protection in this instance ??

scottyboy

My experience with paypal has not been great. I got ripped off trying to buy a iPhone from eBay a couple of years ago. I raised a dispute with PayPal immediately but they said that they would only cover the first €100 as the seller had a low eBay rating (i think this has changed). Anyway to cut a long story short, I contacted MBNA Visa and explained the situation, they put a hold on the charge to avoid paying interest and said that i should not worry as if PayPal fail to act then they will just demand a chargeback from PayPal. They said this usually gets PayPal to respond fairly quickly!

4 weeks later the money is refunded to my credit card but the dispute was still open with PayPal with no action taken.

My advice would be to raise a dispute as soon as possible, just in case, and also inform your credit card company as soon as possible. If it all turns out ok then nothing lost but if you don't raise these issues in a timely manner then you might not get the chance.

Oh, and the credit card company does cover you for transactions that are not delivered or not what you ordered or faulty, just keep pushing!

Edit: Just read again, if you paid with a VISA Debit Card then there is no obligation to perform chargeback. I believe this option is only available when using credit cards.

jor el

All debit cards have pretty much no protection. It's just like a cheque or cash, once it's gone, it's gone for good.

makeorbrake

jor el wrote: »

All debit cards have pretty much no protection. It's just like a cheque or cash, once it's gone, it's gone for good.

Just so that I'm crystal clear on this, even if it is a VISA debit card, it doesn't offer the same protection as a VISA Credit Card?

(If this is the case, I was not aware of it - and its the first drawback I've found between visa debit and Visa C.C.)

ttm

makeorbrake wrote: »

Just so that I'm crystal clear on this, even if it is a VISA debit card, it doesn't offer the same protection as a VISA Credit Card?

(If this is the case, I was not aware of it - and its the first drawback I've found between visa debit and Visa C.C.)

Forget the word VISA the problem seems to be that you didn't use a CREDIT CARD.

If its not a credit card you can't expect the protection you get from using a credit card.

Edit> Sorry OP if I was directing you off on a wild goose chase but I seem to remember you mentioning Visa and made the mistake of assuming that you had paid by Visa Credit Card.

jvc

makeorbrake wrote: »

Just an update on this.

I went through my bank (halifax) as i paid with their visa debit card. Having been passed about a bit and promised callbacks, etc, they say they are under no obligation to assist in any way. They suggested going through paypal (as i had paid paypal with visa) - an avenue I have already exhausted.

Am i being palmed off here or does visa not provide any form of protection in this instance ??

I know you used the Halifax visa debit card and not an ulster bank one but taken from the Ulster Bank website

Purchase Protection

When using your Visa Debit card to pay for goods/services and they fail to arrive or are damaged when you receive them, we may be able to help you to recover the payment. This protection includes purchases made from companies that have gone into administration and purchases made using the internet, where the goods or services have not been received.

You must contact the retailer or service provider first to try to resolve the problem. If this proves unsuccessful, please contact us on 0044 845 3660391.

It seems there is protection available but not sure if its the same for Halifax. Cant find anything on their website.

ttm

jvc got me interested there so I did probably the same google as he did but also came up with this . yeh I know its for the UK but the salient bit is in bold...

The key difference is that when you claim on a credit card under Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act, the credit card company is legally liable.

But the Visa Debit chargeback scheme is not legally binding, so you don't have any legal redress if you are unhappy.

I have a Visa debit card, but my bank says it hasn't heard of the Chargeback scheme. What should I do?

Unfortunately, a number of Working Lunch viewers have found this.

But a spokesperson for Visa Europe stressed that all legitimate claims that abide by the terms and conditions should be dealt with.

He told us that all banks who are members of the scheme should comply with the rules. The members include Nationwide, Barclays, Halifax, and Lloyds TSB.

So you will just have to insist, or ask to speak to someone more senior.

What if I bought goods outside of the UK, am I still protected?

Yes, in general for Visa debit. There are some small differences in the way the way the rules are applied in some countries, but in general, you should be protected.

So while thats UK based information I doubt Visa's rules for its members change that much across Europe.

Edit> above originally came from here

Edit2> searching around the web I've found a few similar threads where the users of Halifax Visa DEBIT CARDS have been refused chargebacks but the threads do seem to suggest their is a chargeback process. This one seems to suggest the initial process should be a bit easier than you've had, but the rest of the thread is a bit confusing.

Found this Guardian article interesting

makeorbrake

Thanks for posting ttm. I have sent a mail to Visa Europe for further clarification and will report back the outcome.

Our man in Havana

You can escalate the matter to the Financial Services Ombudsman if Halifax refuse to play ball.

makeorbrake

Bond-007 wrote: »

You can escalate the matter to the Financial Services Ombudsman if Halifax refuse to play ball.

Getting clarification from Visa Europe first. If that fails will escalate to financial services ombudsman. However, don't know how bothered they will be (halifax) now seeing as they are shutting down shop in a couple of months?
Have to say, their customer support guy that I dealt with the last day was quite adversarial - just another reason why I will escalate..

makeorbrake

This back from Visa Europe.


Dear 0_0,

Thank you for the further information.

Visa chargeback rules and regulations apply to all Visa credit and debit cards. As a Visa cardholder you have a right to approach your bank and ask them to request a refund if the goods and services you purchased with your debit or credit card are not supplied as specified.

Please do not hesitate to contact me directly on the number below if you have any further questions.


Kind Regards,
________
Seems to be that Halifax were telling me a load of cobblers because they didn't want to deal with it. Will have to have another go at them.

Our man in Havana

Will have to have another go at them.

I suggest you send them a letter if they do not play ball after you phone them.

In the letter ask them for a final response as to why they won't deal with it. By law they must respond in writing within 25 days. Then you can take it to the Financial Services Ombudsman.

ttm

I think my next step would be to call the number on the email and ask if you can have a internet link (or a copy and paste in an email) of the relevant "Visa chargeback rules and regulations".

While its good to say that Visa have told you that you can apply for a chargeback it would be better to be able to quote the relevant regulations if they still don't want to know.

I don't think I mention these links before, this one has some good replies including the proceedure that other banks use and this one has some good info (like you have 120days to make the claim) and some useful info in the responces.

makeorbrake

I think my next step would be to call the number on the email and ask if you can have a internet link (or a copy and paste in an email) of the relevant "Visa chargeback rules and regulations".

Busy with other things so slower in dealing with this than I'd like. i got back in contact with Visa Europe and they won't send on the guidelines/rules,etc. Being told to go back to my bank - so I guess I will have to put it in writing this time. I don't suppose theres an email address floating around for Halifax Ireland (can't find one anywhere which means i'll probably have to go to the bother of snail mail).
In the meantime, I'm sending the box back. I'm a bit concerned they will either not take delivery of it
OR
say that it wasn't returned intact/complete, etc.
OR
claim that there was nothing wrong with it.
I know they will at the very least claim the last one if nothing else. Just wondering what the best way is to deal with any of these things?
Lastly, IF i'm forced into a situation of having to take a replacement box, how do i make sure customs don't charge me again for importation?

makeorbrake

I sent in a letter to Halifax on the 12th by registered post asking them to clarify that they wont help a customer in my position and have got no response to date. Just prior to that, i sent the item back to China at my own cost - now the vendor has gone to ground.

I want to go to the banking ombudsman but i guess i can't without a letter from Halifax first. What a class A fúckup this is.

To all of you that thought (like me) that visa offers the consumer protection, then think again.

makeorbrake

I got a call from Halifax and they restated their position ie. where the goods have been delivered as described, they will not get involved even if goods are 'not fit for purpose'. I asked her to confirm that in writing - she went back to her team leader - then came back to me and said yes but 'that may take some time'.


I need a letter before i take this further with visa europe and the banking ombudsman.

What a mess - buyer beware is all i can say. I have always had full confidence in using visa but if this really is as they say (which i'm not convinced of yet), then they don't offer the level of protection that most people (or at least people i have checked with) perceive.

I will update as the saga goes on - I will pursue this as far as I can as being ripped off doesn't sit well with me.

Our man in Havana

Stop phoning them.

You need to ask them in writing for a final response letter. The phone jockeys will stall you until the cows come home.

makeorbrake

Bond-007 wrote: »

Stop phoning them.

You need to ask them in writing for a final response letter. The phone jockeys will stall you until the cows come home.

Of course - I didn't phone them. I wrote to them with questions i wanted answered and sent it registered post. They responded with a phone call - reiterated the same story and I just said fine - confirm all of that by email or snail mail. At that point she goes back to her team leader - which suggests to me that it isn't all they can do....particularly when she felt she had to let me know that I should have exhausted all other avenues before coming to them for a chargeback
I guess I will have to send another registered letter asking for a response...

makeorbrake

The latest update in the saga....

Halifax say they can't invoke a chargeback as I paid through an intermediary (ie. paypal). As they don't have any dealings with the vendor, they can't invoke chargeback.

Our man in Havana

Bollox. They can chargeback paypal.

Gang of Gin

RasTa wrote: »

You aren't covered btw if he decides not to refund ye.

I'm pretty sure you are. If the transaction was conducted through paypal. In my experience anyway, I had goods that never arrived so I put in a claim and the seller refunded when prompted by Paypal.

makeorbrake

Bond-007 wrote: »

Bollox. They can chargeback paypal.

Yes, i suspect your right Halifax still reluctant to give me confirmation of any of this on paper. This was from previous contacts team leader - i asked him to confirm everything on paper. Says i should get this next week.

Gang of Gin wrote:

I'm pretty sure you are. If the transaction was conducted through paypal. In my experience anyway, I had goods that never arrived so I put in a claim and the seller refunded when prompted by Paypal.

Your right - but your scenario was different - goods never arrived. In the case of goods 'not fit for purpose' they allow you to open the resolutions process but automatically close it down again.

makeorbrake

I queried paypal as to why they closed the disputes process and here's the answer I got;

I checked your account and case XX-000-XXX-000-XXX was closed because it
was purchased outside eBay.

We only investigate claims which are filed as ‘Significantly Not as
Described’ if the item was bought on eBay and paid for with PayPal. This
is because we are unable to compare pre-sales and post-purchase
descriptions of the item.

We recommend that you stay in contact with your seller in order to reach a
resolution. You may also contact the Citizens Advice Bureau or Trading
Standards for further investigation.

If you'd like more information please have a look at our User Agreement.
You can find it by clicking on the 'Legal Agreements' link at the bottom of
any PayPal page.

Thank you for choosing PayPal.
*****************************************

Given that I returned the item, surely theres no question of comparing anything - the item was returned and they won't acknowledge the fact. ie. they're blatantly ripping me off.

Max Power1

Bond-007 wrote: »

Bollox. They can chargeback paypal.

from previous experience. Yes they can!

makeorbrake

Max Power1 wrote: »

from previous experience. Yes they can!

Yes, and I think they're going to be liable for the cost of it now. The vendor probably can't be controlled any more as they have been paid out and paypal don't care. So given that they blatantly refused to raise the chargeback, they WILL be paying the costs

Max Power1

makeorbrake wrote: »

Yes, and I think they're going to be liable for the cost of it now. The vendor probably can't be controlled any more as they have been paid out and paypal don't care. So given that they blatantly refused to raise the chargeback, they WILL be paying the costs

While I agree with the sentiment of your post, theres one small point thats inaccurate. The chargeback (if paid through paypal) will go through paypal and paypal will go after the vendor

makeorbrake

Max Power1 wrote: »

While I agree with the sentiment of your post, theres one small point thats inaccurate. The chargeback (if paid through paypal) will go through paypal and paypal will go after the vendor

Well, i dont mind either way as long as I get satisfaction. Can they still pursue it even though >120 days has passed?

Our man in Havana

Can they still pursue it even though >120 days has passed?

Not your problem. Paypal can do what they want.
The priority now is to get Halifax to refund you. After that you really shouldn't care.

Max Power1

Exactly, as above.
The chargeback (from your point of view as the buyer) is between you and your card issuer. How its pursued beyond that doesnt affect you getting your money back! AFAIK you've 180 days to file a chargeback

makeorbrake

Halifax really dragging their feet now - not responding to my mails - and no sign of the written confirmation I requested. Initial request for written confirmation sent on 12th April
Not sure how I can progress until I have that....

Our man in Havana

They have 25 working days (5 weeks) to respond in writing.
If you don't have a written response by then, you should be able to take the matter to the FSO by default.