Anyone ever been to a Ceremony of Tribute?

Stroke Politics

I was looking at Tomás Mac Giolla's funeral on the news this evening, and was intrigued by what RTE reported as a secular funeral. So I took a look at his death notice on RIP.ie, and it mentioned that he was having a Ceremony of Tribute. I have never heard of this before, and wonder if anyone here has ever been to one or can outline the order of events?

When I go, I don't want to do the whole incense and prayers thing, and Mrs S.P. asked me today when we looked at this how I would like to be remembered and it seemed suitable...

Gambler

Have been thinking about this very subject myself recently. Not that I am knocking on deaths door or anything, I just want to make sure my wife knows what my wishes are and is ok with them herself.

At the moment I am leaning towards a full body donation - Organs to help anyone they can and the rest of it for whatever is of use to science. Then "ceremony" wise I am inclined towards some form of a wake\piss up. I do think it's important to let friends and family get together to mark your passing and give them some form of emotional closure but as an atheist it is a difficult one to give a shape to..

Ickle Magoo

Mr Magoo knows I'd like my body donated to science and anything they don't want, I'd like cremated and my ashes scattered over a special part of Scotland. As for ceremony, I've left that for him to decide. He isn't religious & neither is my family so there isn't that issue but ultimately a ceremony or get together would be for their benefit and to bring them some closure so what works best in that respect is for them to to decide. :cool:

Turtwig

Have been at non religious memorial ceremonies before and I have to say they were splendid. No prayers or any of that nonsense just remember the fulfilled life the deceased had. That's what I want.

Will donate me own body to science.:) Have pretty much told my brother that I don't want any religious ceremony in the event that I was to go before my parents.

There was a former minister's funeral recently that I think was secular. Can't remember who.

Stroke Politics - your signature doesn't work.

Stroke Politics

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a former minister's funeral recently that I think was secular. Can't remember who.

Stroke Politics - your signature doesn't work.

That was the late Justin Keating. Thanks re. sig - think I have it fixed now....

DogmaticLefty

What's this? Atheists mimicing Mass? While I understand atheists will claim they are not part of a religion, they certainly behave as if they were part of one!

Ickle Magoo

What are you talking about? Are you really so ignorant as to think only Catholics hold a ceremony when someone dies! :eek:

DogmaticLefty

So what's the point of the "ceremony" then? To make everyone feel warm and fuzzy about themselves? Obviously you're not going to be sitting around praying for the repose of the soul.

Are there any rituals at a "ceremony of tribute"? Is there an ailse up the middle of the hall and a procession of the body?

Ickle Magoo

Seriously, do some study before you post such pious drivel, you're embarrassing yourself.

There have been funerary rights of the dead for as long as there has been a human civilisation. There are cave paintings & skeletons dating back to over 300,000 yrs ago, long before christianity ever reared it's ugly head, which show evidence of burial ritual and ceremony.

Instead of assuming other people are copying you, why not educate yourself a bit so you know most of your religion has actually been copied from others.

robindch

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

So what's the point of the "ceremony" then?

To make a public statement that the person's life had some meaning and that the life was due the kind of general respect that everybody should be due, and that you, strangely, seem to be having some trouble mustering this morning.

Anyhow, just a polite note to say that if you'd like your posting career in A+A to last much beyond elevenses, then I suggest that you think a bit more and troll a bit less.

Much obliged!

From your friendly forum mods.

Dades

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

So what's the point of the "ceremony" then? To make everyone feel warm and fuzzy about themselves? Obviously you're not going to be sitting around praying for the repose of the soul.

What's the point of the Oscars? Or the Nobel Prizes? Or a leaving dinner? You really lack imagination if you think religion has a monopoly on 'ceremony'.

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Are there any rituals at a "ceremony of tribute"? Is there an ailse up the middle of the hall and a procession of the body?

Well logically an aisle would make sense if people don't want to clamber over a hundred chairs with a body/urn to reach the podium.

DogmaticLefty

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Seriously, do some study before you post such pious drivel, you're embarrassing yourself.

There have been funerary rights of the dead for as long as there has been a human civilisation. There are cave paintings & skeletons dating back to over 300,000 yrs ago, long before christianity ever reared it's ugly head, which show evidence of burial ritual and ceremony.

Instead of assuming other people are copying you, why not educate yourself a bit so you know most of your religion has actually been copied from others.

Nowhere do I claim that Catholicism/Christianity has a monopoly on rituals.

I just find it odd that you'd want to mimic a ceremony in which the divine plays a crucial role, regardless of wether you're a Christian or a Muslim, or indeed a Pagan/Earth-based believer. Anyway, we know better than the Celts these days.

DogmaticLefty

Dades wrote: »

Well logically an aisle would make sense if people don't want to clamber over a hundred chairs with a body/urn to reach the podium.

Ah! So you have an altar too!

Seriously though, what is the point of an atheist wishing to have a "Ceremony of Tribute" once they die?

Stroke Politics

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Nowhere do I claim that Catholicism/Christianity has a monopoly on rituals.

I just find it odd that you'd want to mimic a ceremony in which the divine plays a crucial role, regardless of wether you're a Christian or a Muslim, or indeed a Pagan/Earth-based believer. Anyway, we know better than the Celts these days.

It's not about mimicking anything for me. It's about the grieving process, and sharing the sadness one feels when someone close to you dies, is an essential part of grief. I never understood the significance of the ritual of grief until my own father died, and found the ritualistic aspect of the ceremony and the people who gathered for it a great comfort. There is for me no need for mention of anything divine in such circumstances......

Dim

As much as I'd like my funeral to be a final representation of me. Its not for me, its for any loved ones I leave behind. For that reason I would leave it up to them to decide how they want to say goodbye. I do cringe at the vision of me in an open casket on an alter, but I have the feelin it might help some of my family. As for friends I'd hope they'd have a massive session and remember me in good spirits.
A ceremony of tribute would be nice, but I think it would make it harder on any religious family members (which are mostly Christians). Thats a tough one though... If the ones closest too you were not religious then I think a ceremony of tribute is a great idea.

Gambler

For me personally, the ceremony wouldn't be like the christian one at all. My body won't be there because it will be donated but I would imagine something that is basically a gathering of friends to allow them some space to come to terms with my passing and to give them some closure.

As far as I am concerned it won't really matter a damn to me, I'll be dead but I do care enough now about my family and friends to hope that they can accept my death and move on, if a ceremony of some sort helps them with that then great..

DogmaticLefty

robindch wrote: »

To make a public statement that the person's life had some meaning and that the life was due the kind of general respect that everybody should be due, and that you, strangely, seem to be having some trouble mustering this morning.

That's fine. "general respect" is good enough reason and you don't need any reason other than that in this free society of ours.

Just like a Christian funeral really, only with God cut out using a precision blade.

Ickle Magoo

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Nowhere do I claim that Catholicism/Christianity has a monopoly on rituals.

I just find it odd that you'd want to mimic a ceremony in which the divine plays a crucial role, regardless of wether you're a Christian or a Muslim, or indeed a Pagan/Earth-based believer. Anyway, we know better than the Celts these days.

You are still claiming that people are copying christianity by holding a rite that far out dates christianity - I find that very odd.

We know better now do we? That's why we have adopted and embelished their traditions & rites and still practice them to this day, okay then.

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

That's fine. "general respect" is good enough reason and you don't need any reason other than that in this free society of ours.

Just like a Christian funeral really, only with God cut out using a precision blade.

Well really, that's the point, if you look at funerary rights anthropologically, god was only crow barred in over the last couple of thousand years in over 300,000yrs of ceremonies. There has always been rituals and ceremonies that had no mention of god or chritianity, even after the introduction of christianity. Just because it's becoming more common in Ireland in 2010 is no reason to assume it's a new fangled thing to society in general.

Dades

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Just like a Christian funeral really, only with God cut out using a precision blade.

Friends & family: check
Some sort of seating area: check
Talking about someone who has just died: check

It's a little hard to have a tribute ceremony to someone who has died without an overlap of the proceedings of a traditional funeral, for obvious reasons.

The Mad Hatter

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Ah! So you have an altar too!

Seriously though, what is the point of an atheist wishing to have a "Ceremony of Tribute" once they die?

Your question has been answered several times, once even before your first post.

robindch

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Just like a Christian funeral really, only with God cut out using a precision blade.

Er, yes, that's kind of the logical conclusion if one doesn't believe that there's some magic, bearded sky-bunny up there beyond the clouds who raises the dead to life on a preferential basis.

aidan24326

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Seriously though, what is the point of an atheist wishing to have a "Ceremony of Tribute" once they die?

What is the point of christians wanting a funeral ceremony?

DogmaticLefty

aidan24326 wrote: »

What is the point of christians wanting a funeral ceremony?

My understanding is that it's to pray for the repose of the deceased's soul and to entrust them to God's mercy and care. To honour the body and to comfort the living in their grief. Mass is celebrated not just for the dead, but for the living too.

In the words of the introduction to the Rite of Christian Funerals
(a great read): "In the face of death, the Church confidently proclaims 'that God has created each person for eternal life and that Jesus, the Son of God, by his death and resurrection, has broken the chains of sin and death that bound humanity."

MikeC101

Can anyone tell me what I need to do to ensure I don't have a funeral?

In that, if I was to be flattened by a bus tomorrow, my family, while aware I am an atheist, would probably go ahead with a Catholic funeral. On the grounds of it being the done thing, and people would expect it.

What, if anything, can I do to ensure this doesn't happen? Would it be part of a will, or something else?

I could just ask them, but I don't know if they'd respect that.

DogmaticLefty

MikeC101 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what I need to do to ensure I don't have a funeral?

In that, if I was to be flattened by a bus tomorrow, my family, while aware I am an atheist, would probably go ahead with a Catholic funeral. On the grounds of it being the done thing, and people would expect it.

What, if anything, can I do to ensure this doesn't happen? Would it be part of a will, or something else?

I could just ask them, but I don't know if they'd respect that.

Make a will would be the obvious thing to do.

MikeC101

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Make a will would be the obvious thing to do.

Yes, hence the "Would it be part of a will" part of the post.

I'd like to know if anyone here has ever done it.

Zillah

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

My understanding is that it's to pray for the repose of the deceased's soul and to entrust them to God's mercy and care. To honour the body and to comfort the living in their grief. Mass is celebrated not just for the dead, but for the living too.

You can't honestly be having trouble understanding this?

Let me put it as clearly as I can: A secular funeral is an occasion for the deceased's loved ones to spend time together sharing their grief, to give tribute to a life lived, to mourn a life lost. For others to demonstrate respect and empathy by their attendance and kind words. To publicly acknowledge the loss they have endured and to say a final farewell.

I feel ridiculous having to explain this. You could not have deduced the above on your own?

DogmaticLefty

Zillah wrote: »

Let me put it as clearly as I can: A secular funeral is an occasion for the deceased's loved ones to spend time together sharing their grief, to give tribute to a life lived, to mourn a life lost. For others to demonstrate respect and empathy by their attendance and kind words. To publicly acknowledge the loss they have endured and to say a final farewell.

Is that the definition from the handbook of atheism, or is it, I assume, your interpretation, of what a "ceremony of tribute" is?

And I don't find it at all surprising for a group of atheists and their friends to want to engage in ritual behaviour to mark the death of a loved one.

Zillah

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Is that the definition from the handbook of atheism, or is it, I assume, your interpretation, of what a "ceremony of tribute" is?

You're quite contrary aren't you? Religious people often wander in here with a vague feeling of offense at the very notion of atheism. Of course it is my interpretation. It is, however, one that I feel reflects human nature, and one that I am certain that the vast majority of people, let alone atheists, would agree with.

And I don't find it at all surprising for a group of atheists and their friends to want to engage in ritual behaviour to mark the death of a loved one.

Er, then why your previous incredulity? If you're accepting that such a ritual is simply a reasonable reaction to loss, then why all of your earlier insinuations that they were in some way imitating religion?

DogmaticLefty

Zillah wrote: »

Er, then why your previous incredulity? If you're accepting that such a ritual is simply a reasonable reaction to loss, then why all of your earlier insinuations that they were in some way imitating religion?

It's a natural instinct in humans and it's hardly surprising that atheists temporarily leave their logic and reason to one side while they mourn the loss of a friend of family member.

Zillah

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

It's a natural instinct in humans and it's hardly surprising that atheists temporarily leave their logic and reason to one side while they mourn the loss of a friend of family member.

What exactly is unreasonable and illogical about mourning the loss of a loved one?

Did you watch too much Star Trek with Mr.Spock? Do you think a logical person is also supposed to be unemotional? You are a very confused individual. Also, your response didn't actually address my question at all. I can ask it again if you like: If funereal rituals are a natural human instinct, then why accuse us of mimicking religion by performing them, after you yourself have conceded that religious funerals are just one manifestation of this natural instinct?

stimpson

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

My understanding is that it's to pray for the repose of the deceased's soul and to entrust them to God's mercy and care. To honour the body and to comfort the living in their grief. Mass is celebrated not just for the dead, but for the living too.

I thought you could only get to heaven by believing in Jesus and being sorry for your sins. Surely your god in his supposedly infinite wisdom is more than capable of deciding whether to admit the deceased or send em down below for the fire and brimstone and pokers being jammed up your arse for all eternity.

So why pray for the dead? Do you think you can petition St Peter to turn a blind eye to the odd sinner as if he was a TD handing out medical cards? Surely it's a pointless exercise. Funerals are for the living at the end of the day, be they catholic, atheist or miscellaneous.

DogmaticLefty

stimpson wrote: »

I thought you could only get to heaven by believing in Jesus and being sorry for your sins. Surely your god in his supposedly infinite wisdom is more than capable of deciding whether to admit the deceased or send em down below for the fire and brimstone and pokers being jammed up your arse for all eternity.

So why pray for the dead? Do you think you can petition St Peter to turn a blind eye to the odd sinner as if he was a TD handing out medical cards? Surely it's a pointless exercise. Funerals are for the living at the end of the day, be they catholic, atheist or miscellaneous.

Instead of being such a nonchalent smarty-pants, why don't you go to the reference I gave in that post that you've quoted and find out for yourself the purpose of a Catholic funeral.

Gambler

MikeC101 wrote: »

Can anyone tell me what I need to do to ensure I don't have a funeral?

In that, if I was to be flattened by a bus tomorrow, my family, while aware I am an atheist, would probably go ahead with a Catholic funeral. On the grounds of it being the done thing, and people would expect it.

What, if anything, can I do to ensure this doesn't happen? Would it be part of a will, or something else?

I could just ask them, but I don't know if they'd respect that.

Unfortunately even declaring your wishes in a will with regards to what happens after you die is no guarantee. The decision is made by your legal next of kin and as I understand it they have the final say on what actually happens.

For example if you wish to leave your body to science in Ireland you have to sign a witnessed document to that affect but if after you die your closest blood relative (assuming you are single) decides they don't want you being chopped up by students then they can go against this wish and the medical college is not able to enforce your wishes.

Edit to add a reference -

You should make sure that your next of kin are aware of your wishes. You can do this by telling them and/or stating you wish to donate your body for medical research in your will. The law is unclear on this but it would seem that your next of kin - or whoever is responsible for the cremation or interrment of your body - are not necessarily obliged to go along with your wishes.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/health/blood-and-organ-donation/body_and_organ_donation

MikeC101

Gambler wrote: »

Unfortunately even declaring your wishes in a will with regards to what happens after you die is no guarantee. The decision is made by your legal next of kin and as I understand it they have the final say on what actually happens.

For example if you wish to leave your body to science in Ireland you have to sign a witnessed document to that affect but if after you die your closest blood relative (assuming you are single) decides they don't want you being chopped up by students then they can go against this wish and the medical college is not able to enforce your wishes.

That's disappointing, but perhaps not surprising. To be honest, I'm not really bothered what happens to my body after death, but I don't like the idea of some random priest pronouncing how I always acted like a christian etc etc...

I'm not usually very vocal about my atheism, but taking the above into account maybe I have a reason to let as many of my friends / relatives know my stance on religion.

Gambler

I do think that if you take the step of telling your family plainly what your wishes are (and if donating your body backing it up with a signed document to that affect) then it will be more difficult for them to blatantly ignore and hopefully someone will stand up for your wishes.

If it makes them feel better your body is only gone for 3 years and then the college will either bury it in a plot they have, transport it to a plot you already have or cremate the remains and return them to the family.

The remains can be held in the department for up to 3 years after receiving them. After this period of time, the remains are interred in accordance with the wishes of the donor and in consultation with the family/executor of the donor at the time of interment.

http://www.medicine.tcd.ie/anatomy/donations/

aidan24326

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Make a will would be the obvious thing to do.

Wouldn't a person normally be already buried/cremated/whatever else before the reading of the will?

Is that the definition from the handbook of atheism, or is it, I assume, your interpretation, of what a "ceremony of tribute" is?

Well you see the nice thing about a secular memorial service is that there are no rules as such, it can be interpreted whatever way you want it to.

And I don't find it at all surprising for a group of atheists and their friends to want to engage in ritual behaviour to mark the death of a loved one.

You're somewhat contradicting yourself now. You seemed a little more surprised here:

Seriously though, what is the point of an atheist wishing to have a "Ceremony of Tribute" once they die?

It's a natural instinct in humans and it's hardly surprising that atheists temporarily leave their logic and reason to one side while they mourn the loss of a friend of family member.

Logic and reason have nothing to do with grief and emotional loss. You're really just being spiky now aren't you?

DogmaticLefty

aidan24326 wrote: »

Logic and reason have nothing to do with grief and emotional loss.

Really? And there was me being led to believe that everything has a scientific explanation...

It's logical and reasonable to mourn the loss of a loved one. But that's only one dimension of the process.

aidan24326

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Really? And there was me being led to believe that everything has a scientific explanation...

It's logical and reasonable to mourn the loss of a loved one. But that's only one dimension of the process.

You know very well what I meant, or at least you should do.

DogmaticLefty

aidan24326 wrote: »

You know very well what I meant, or at least you should do.

I can't generate the semantics if it's not in the syntax.

iUseVi

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

I can't generate the semantics if it's not in the syntax.

Are you a robot by any chance? You cannot "generate the semantics"? Get more RAM or something you know exactly what he means you are just being a jackass.

Calibos

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Really? And there was me being led to believe that everything has a scientific explanation...

It's logical and reasonable to mourn the loss of a loved one. But that's only one dimension of the process.

Just because there is "another dimension of the process" for you doesn't mean there is one for us.

Holy mother of Jesus!!

You seem to be the kind of religious poster that would consider my use of the previous sentence as an exclamation of frustration as proof that secretly I must believe in God because why else would I invoke our lady :rolleyes::D

DogmaticLefty has a new catchphrase for us guys. Theres no athiests in Foxholes Funerals

Hey, what does everyone think of my new sig
________________________________________________________________

Ignore List: DogmaticLefty

stimpson

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

Instead of being such a nonchalent smarty-pants, why don't you go to the reference I gave in that post that you've quoted and find out for yourself the purpose of a Catholic funeral.

Smartypants? Moi? You were the one coming on here to troll about an atheists funeral. Do you think that behaviour makes the baby Jesus happy?

Nevertheless, your post doesn't answer my question - can you "pray" somebody into heaven or not?

Calibos

stimpson wrote: »

Smartypants? Moi? You were the one coming on here to troll about an atheists funeral. Do you think that behaviour makes the baby Jesus happy?

Nevertheless, your post doesn't answer my question - can you "pray" somebody into heaven or not?

Don't be silly mate. One doesn't pray to God at a funeral. One prays to your Saint of choice to intercede with God on their behalf. Ya know....ask them to have a word in Gods ear or one of Gods Angel sidekicks. There is a Hierarchy up in heaven you know. No one gets to talk to the Godfather directly except when its his daughters wedding and we all know thats not possible when God has only one begotten Son.

Remember that Christianity is nothing like those pagan Polytheistic religions with a head God Zeus and a load of subordinate demi-Gods. The similarity with the pantheon of Angels and Patron Saints is in your head mate.

Depending on the deceased or your own occupation or circumstances one decides which Patron Saint to ask. The objective is to get the guy with the plan who works in mysterious ways to change his mind. God is fair and after due process he will make his decision. Just goes to show that Uncle George must have been a good man deep down because God saved him at the last minute after we prayed for him but conversely those Haitians must have been twisted evil ***ks because even with the prayers of millions God wouldn't change his mind and let so many die. Thats the only logical conclusion really. Why bother praying at all if its not worth doing. Right?

stimpson

Calibos wrote: »

Don't be silly mate. One doesn't pray to God at a funeral. One prays to your Saint of choice to intercede with God on their behalf.

Ah, so it is like asking your local TD for a medical card. Gotcha!;)

DogmaticLefty

stimpson wrote: »

can you "pray" somebody into heaven or not?

You can certainly reduce your time in purgatory through prayer. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7131088.stm

(it also keeps you focussed on the true meaning of life)

taram

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

You can certainly reduce your time in purgatory through prayer. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7131088.stm

(it also keeps you focussed on the true meaning of life)

Which is? To be a good person, treat the world and others with respect or to vaguely follow a really old book with some psycho dude who watches you from the sky? Seriously. Dude.

On the original post my father (and I) have planned to have ceremonies like this, people saying goodbye and sharing their memories. At the end of the day funerals are for the living, and I think a ceremony like this would be perfect for my family to come to terms with their loss, as opposed to a religious ceremony with a priest who never knew me, in a church I didn't go to, saying words half the congregation don't believe anyway. Saying goodbye to the dead is nothing new, or even a uniquely human trait, but it is a trait we share and should respect.

DogmaticLefty

taram wrote: »

At the end of the day funerals are for the living

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

taram

DogmaticLefty wrote: »

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

Can guarantee my festering corpse won't give a damn So what do you think a ceremony of tribute is about? It's a flavour of funeral, someone's dead, other people mourn, they come to terms with it, the dead is buried/cremated/shot into space/whatever. The end. Dead person is still dead, but the living will come to terms to it and recieve closure. Same as 10000 other types of death ceramonies throughout the history of mankind, hence my curiousity to why you are arguing about something that has no point of contention.

robindch

Calibos wrote: »

those Haitians must have been twisted evil ***ks

In the context of quarter of a million dead humans, that comment is beneath contempt.

User has been banned for one week and should consider it getting off lightly.