Common Application System ... again

billy the squid

Further to a recent thread relating to the Secondary Schools Common Application System, I have heard some disturbing claims from people who have gone through the system which I think would make an excellent investigative subject.

One claim goes like this

Primary School A has a "right of entry" agreement with Secondary School X

At some point Primary School A decides to have their "right of entry" agreement with Secondary School Y instead

Administrators at Secondary School X get ticked off with this and refuse all applicants from Primary School A

Student from primary school A gets seven or eight rejection letters in the one day and is offered a place in a school they have no desire to go to.

There are numerous such disagreements between primary and secondary schools throughout the Common Application System, and childrens futures are being used as pawns in these "feuds" between schools.

Many of the Enrolment policies from secondary schools I have read recently suggest that applicants are selected at random after the "right of entry" students have been offered places. but this leaves many questions.

1) How are the applicants selected randomly, are they drawn out of a hat? selected by computer?

2. Is the random selection process recorded or witnessed

3. Is it independently adjudicated?

4. Is it done in public?

It would be my intention to do the investigation as part of my course work for college, but if it turns up anything scandalous, you will bet your sweet ass I will seek to have it published.

So, if there is anyone interested in assisting with this, can you drop me a PM?

supermommy

I would just like to say for the record that...
...as someone new to the country going through this for the first time, I would have to give this sytem a big fat fail.
My son was accepted to St. Enda's, which if I cope with the reputation...is 2 bus rides and a walk away...for a 12 year old.
The fact that my son cannot go to our neighborhood school seems so ridiculous to me.
The primary school is trying to help get us somewhere closer but we are considering packing it in and moving more out into the country...
So yeah.. I would love, love, love to see the behind the scenes of this process and exactly how 'random' things really are!
:cool:
Go get em Billy

Raiser

Best of luck with that - Its ridiculously unfair to expect a 12 year old or their Family to have to cope with that.

Research all of the surrounding Schools - might get lucky and find one with a Bus running from City Centre or wherever.

I'd be thinking Croom, and Pallasgreen etc. (Someone please correct me if this is off target)

Also find out who your local Politician is and try your luck, give him the impression you are active locally and a big talker.

- Search on Boards too for discussions on Endas......

colchiarain

The system is transparent. Each school MUST publish their enrollment policy. In our case it is:

> Brothers and Sisters
> Children of Staff
> Immediate Locality
> All Others

Under no circumstances can a school simply decide not to take applications from a given school. If they did a parent could take a section 29 appeal and the school may be forced to take in the child.

If a school exhausts it first choices as per enrollment policy, the remaining places are filled via a lottery draw of applicants.

There is no requirement for this selection process to be public. Legally, the management of the school have to abide by these rules and they are trusted professionals.

billy the squid

Does croom have any dedicated Feeder schools? alot of the secondary schools in the city do.

the lower quality primary schools would not for example have a right of entry to the higher quality secondary schools.

billy the squid

colchiarain wrote: »

The system is transparent. Each school MUST publish their enrollment policy. In our case it is:

> Brothers and Sisters
> Children of Staff
> Immediate Locality
> All Others

Under no circumstances can a school simply decide not to take applications from a given school. If they did a parent could take a section 29 appeal and the school may be forced to take in the child.

If a school exhausts it first choices as per enrollment policy, the remaining places are filled via a lottery draw of applicants.

There is no requirement for this selection process to be public. Legally, the management of the school have to abide by these rules and they are trusted professionals.

Firstly, if you are speaking as a representative of Colaiste Ciaran, I would recommend that you contact hello@boards.ie and enquire about being given "official representative" status.

Second, assuming that you are from that school, I would like to know the answers to the questions I have set above

is the random selection process witnessed independently or in public?

And one question which is not in the original post, if a parent is unable to make it to the open night, does that damage their child's chances of gaining enrollment. I am aware of one girls school in the city that asks parents to sign in at the open night.

finally, claiming to be a trusted professional doesnt amount to much after the trusted professionals in the banks, the priesthood and in government.

The whole "you get in if you have a father or mother as a past pupil" also doesn't sit easily with me as this puts foreign nationals at a disadvantage .

supermommy

billy the squid wrote: »

The whole "you get in if you have a father or mother as a past pupil" also doesn't sit easily with me as this puts foreign nationals at a disadvantage .

Or someone like me who, though I am a proper Irish citizen I have no family history in this area. It is not a very welcoming feeling for families that may be new and trying to fit into the community. My son just wants to continue going to school with the friends he has made in his couple years here.

Our family is considering moving to tipp now (mostly due to cheaper rent, not the school situation) but we still have to sort out something for now just in case.

supermommy

Raiser wrote: »

- Search on Boards too for discussions on Endas......

I did that the day I got his letter...and it wasnt so pretty

Amazotheamazing

supermommy wrote: »

Or someone like me who, though I am a proper Irish citizen I have no family history in this area. It is not a very welcoming feeling for families that may be new and trying to fit into the community. My son just wants to continue going to school with the friends he has made in his couple years here.

Our family is considering moving to tipp now (mostly due to cheaper rent, not the school situation) but we still have to sort out something for now just in case.

Get in touch with your local councillors, iirc, you're based in Caherdavin so Cormac Hurley, Kevin Kiely, Kathleen Leddin, Tom Shortt, Michael Hourigan and Maurice Quinlivan represent your area. Of those, Shorrt is a teacher, and Hurley and Hourigan are married to teachers (both now retired, iirc) so they might be able to tell you what your next step should be. If any of your kids are in Na Piarsigh GAA club, you could do worse than chat to Liam Kennedy, a teacher from Ardscoil involved in na Piarsigh, see what he recommends.

banjobongo

colchiarain wrote: »

The system is transparent. Each school MUST publish their enrollment policy. In our case it is:

> Brothers and Sisters
> Children of Staff
> Immediate Locality
> All Others

Under no circumstances can a school simply decide not to take applications from a given school. If they did a parent could take a section 29 appeal and the school may be forced to take in the child.

If a school exhausts it first choices as per enrollment policy, the remaining places are filled via a lottery draw of applicants.

There is no requirement for this selection process to be public. Legally, the management of the school have to abide by these rules and they are trusted professionals.

In my own opinion colchiarain is stating what should happen, but everybody knows that what should happen, and what actually happens are 2 different things! - I know of many children who have got into some of the so called "top" schools, when they did not fulfil ANY of the above categories, yet these same schools turned down children who did fulfil the above categories in other words they rejected children who fullfilled their critertia in favour of children who did not fulfil their criteria.
The parents of the children who did get into these schools made no secret of the fact that they lobbied very aggressively on behalf of their child. As to what this activity involved, I dont know, I can imagine tho!
Its the so called top schools, Im not going to name them here, you all know who they are, can pick and choose who enters, the parents are desperate to get their kids in and will do whatever they can to get their kids in, even if they dont fulfil the criteria.
I suspect that if colchiarain is connected with the school in Croom, that your school does indeed operate this policy fairly (i was very impressed with this school myself from attending the open day etc, and my own child will be attending this school next Sept), but its other "top" schools in Limerick City that are picking the children based on their own criteria.

On a different but related point, after having gone through the CAS last year, I have one major gripe about it, its how the system operates if you dont get your first choice of school.
When you fill in the form you have to fill in school 1, 2, and so on down the line, with the implied presumption that if you dont get choice number 1, you will get the next choice school.
What actually happens is that if you dont get your child into your first choice school, you certainly wont get school 2, 3, 4, 5 or even 6, as they are all filled already, so if you dont get your first choice of school, you get the schools you least want ie school 7, 8 or 9! So its a total waste of time filling in the form with your 2nd, 3rd 4th choices.
Thats my own experience, if anybody out there has a different story, Id be interested to hear it!

Raiser

colchiarain wrote: »

The system is transparent. Each school MUST publish their enrollment policy. In our case it is:

> Brothers and Sisters
> Children of Staff
> Immediate Locality
> All Others

Under no circumstances can a school simply decide not to take applications from a given school. If they did a parent could take a section 29 appeal and the school may be forced to take in the child.

If a school exhausts it first choices as per enrollment policy, the remaining places are filled via a lottery draw of applicants.

There is no requirement for this selection process to be public. Legally, the management of the school have to abide by these rules and they are trusted professionals.

I think it was very decent of you to take the time to come on here and post that when you were under no obligation personally or professionally to do so; Its to your credit and to my mind it also reflects well on the ethos of the School.

billy the squid

Anyone read the bit on page 10 of the County edition of the Limerick Leader about Bruff FCJ. also does anyone know anything about the school. The website seems to be a little out of date.

things such as do they take applicants from the city and do they operate a bus?

Maybe if that school did what Colaiste Ciarmhan did and joined the CAS, took in kids from the City, it might be enough to save the school completely.

billy the squid

Raiser wrote: »

I think it was very decent of you to take the time to come on here and post that when you were under no obligation personally or professionally to do so; Its to your credit and to my mind it also reflects well on the ethos of the School.

yes, but they didn't answer a single question posed.

Raiser

Well notwithstanding the fact that they have never been asked to, or at any time professed to be an official spokeperson for this System..... I don't think I've ever seen anyone post on here as an official representative of a non-profit making organisation - Where's the incentive or obligation?

Also I'd suspect they might have reason to be cautious; They have to consider their livelihood as well as their personal and professional reputations against the backdrop of an attentive audience who are anywhere between being curious passers-by, to angry and anxious Parents.

To be fair I think they spoke for their School, vouched for their policy and pointed out a viable and effective avenue of redress for Parents who feel that the System is being run in a nudge-nudge, crooked, and thoroughly Irish manner.

- I'd advise any Parent on here with concerns to post minimal details on their own situation while including any relevant detail such as the school, their own area etc. and who knows who might reply.....

colchiarain

banjobongo wrote: »

I know of many children who have got into some of the so called "top" schools, when they did not fulfil ANY of the above categories, yet these same schools turned down children who did fulfil the above categories in other words they rejected children who fullfilled their critertia in favour of children who did not fulfil their criteria.

Banjo, if this is the case, then those children rejected should have taken a section 29 appeal. If what you say is true, they almost certainly would have won their case. The appeals process is very effective. It was a section 29 appeal that saw the girl being taken into an all boys schools - because it did not state on the enrollment policy that they took only boys.

thesimpsons

A Section 29 appeal is extremely difficult to win. You have to prove that the school didn't apply its own enrolment policy correctly. The 1st year of the new system there were a number of Section 29s taken and not a single one of them for a particular popular school (where I think it was 13 separate cases were taken) won. Even when the school couldn't state or prove how the random selection was administered, the school still won the case. Even when the Appeals committee questioned the fairness of the same randomness of applicants chosen, the Section 29 still failed. Since that first year, alot of the schools have tightened up their enrolment policies considerably so its even harder now for a parent to win a Section 29.

billy the squid

Raiser wrote: »

Well notwithstanding the fact that they have never been asked to, or at any time professed to be an official spokeperson for this System..... I don't think I've ever seen anyone post on here as an official representative of a non-profit making organisation - Where's the incentive or obligation?

Also I'd suspect they might have reason to be cautious; They have to consider their livelihood as well as their personal and professional reputations against the backdrop of an attentive audience who are anywhere between being curious passers-by, to angry and anxious Parents.

To be fair I think they spoke for their School, vouched for their policy and pointed out a viable and effective avenue of redress for Parents who feel that the System is being run in a nudge-nudge, crooked, and thoroughly Irish manner.

- I'd advise any Parent on here with concerns to post minimal details on their own situation while including any relevant detail such as the school, their own area etc. and who knows who might reply.....

the idea of the "official representative" status is for visitors to the site can be sure that they are talking to someone who is in a position to speak for the school and not someone using the school's name. There is a regular on this forum who uses the name Ardscoil Ris, he doesn't represent the school he just went to it.

If (and this is assuming that this really is someone from Calaiste Ciarmhan) they want to come in here to defend their enrollment policy and claim it is transparant, then they should address the questions raised in the OP.

Agent_99

Hi Guys,
As a parent i will be going through this process next year and not looking forward to it. We have no right of entry either through N. School or parentage I would like him to go to a good school because he is a smart cookie but easliy distracted. we are lucky enough to live in the country but close to the city and on the school bus route. Can anyone advise a list of potential boys/mixed school in the city and country.

Many Thanks

thesimpsons

the following schools are all part of the CAS at the moment. In 6th class around Sept you will need to check out the schools and find out when they are holding their open days - local papers will usually have the details too. The full listing of schools for 2011 will be issued then as well.

Ard Scoil Mhuire, Corbally - Girls only
Ard Scoil Ris, North Circular Road - Boys only
Castletroy College - mixed
Cólaiste Mhichil (CBS) - Sexton Street - boys only
Cólaiste Ciaran, Croom - mixed
Crescent College Comprehensive, Dooradoyle - Mixed
Gaelcólaiste - mixed (Irish language school)
Laurel Hill Cólaiste, South Circular Road - girls only (Irish language school)
Laurel Hill Secondary, South Circular Road - girls only
Pallaskenry - mixed
Presentation Secondary, Sexton Street - girls only
St Clements, South Circular Road - Boys only
St Endas Community, Kilmallock Road - mixed
St Munchins College, Corbally - boys only
St Nessans, Moylish - Mixed
Salesians Secondary, North Circular Road - girls only
Villiers, North Circular Road - mixed
Scoil Carmel, O'Connell Street - girls only

dad123

I was one of the parents who contributed to the last thread regarding colaiste chiarain. I had right of entry as my older son was already there since last year, so I was ok. Just like to agree with those who have come down on the side of Croom. I think its a great school and i cant fault it. Only problem now is that there is a rumour that Bruff will end up merging with croom. Not sure would tis be a good thing, for many reasons! Hopefully its just a rumour... Anyone heard anything about this??

donutheadhomer

does anyone know what the admission policy is for crescent comprehensive? I live in Kilteragh and see lots of kids going to different when the comp is next door, kilteragh is built on the grounds of the school. I can't find the admission policy on their website.

dad123

Hi Eurasianbadger,

Sorry for ur trouble but crescent policy is that no places are reserved for their immediate area. This is how they keep reproducing the same as it is mostly about "WHO you know" etc.
My advice is to avoid finding urself with no school next year and make every effort to get to a school like Colaiste Chiarain. At least it is some way transparent in its admissions and a great school!

Dad123

rummy2010

My son is going into 6th class in Donoughmore NS in September and I am already worried about secondary school. He would love to go to Coláiste Chiaráin but he seems to part of that "Celtic Tiger" baby boom having always had 32 peers in his class. My worry is that all the places will be taken up by brothers and sisters, local children etc. We are living in Limerick and I am beginning to worry that there will be no places available. Does anyone know estimates of places available? The number of local school children etc.?. I am new to this process and it seems to be more stressful than getting a college place!!!!

mcbuffalo

I endured this system last year for my son and to say it is traumatic is an understatement. He didn't get the school he wanted and we ended up taking a section 29 against the school that was his first choice. Thankfully we won our appeal. I must say the school we appealed were very good to us and helped and advised us before hand. It is a very intimidating process, sitting in a room begging for a place for your child infront of 12 strangers.
Some schools do stick to the rules and if they all did that then the system would probably work very well. But there are of course the schools who still cherry pick kids based on their academic and sporting abilities and of course the size of daddy's wallet and your address helps too. I know for a fact of a school who approached primary schools for details of boys, then contacted the boys' families and offered them places in their school because these kids were great rugby players.... Disgraceful carry on! I complained to the Dept of Education and was told it was not within their power to do anything....where do you go from there? Unless the parents of Limerick stand up and fight for a change in the system, we will be stuck with it for the foreseeable future

banjobongo

Ive heard from quite a few parents that their children did not get their school of choice this year, Ive also heard that Castletroy College are taking in less number of children this year and of course there is the impact of Bruff school, these are probably all connected.
Im so happy and lucky that my child got into her school of first choice last year, which is Croom, and for any parents whose child has been offered a place there, I can honestly say that I dont have a single negative comment to say about the place, its just a really good environment for the kids to grow up.

mcbuffalo

banjobongo wrote: »

Ive heard from quite a few parents that their children did not get their school of choice this year, Ive also heard that Castletroy College are taking in less number of children this year and of course there is the impact of Bruff school, these are probably all connected.
Im so happy and lucky that my child got into her school of first choice last year, which is Croom, and for any parents whose child has been offered a place there, I can honestly say that I dont have a single negative comment to say about the place, its just a really good environment for the kids to grow up.

Croom was the school we took our appeal against. In fairness to them I know that my son not getting a place there was just because of numbers and nothing else. There was no hard feelings on there part when they lost the appeal and my son absolutely loves going to school out there. The staff and the whole school environment are second to none. I couldn't speak highly enough of the school. It is just sad to say that some of the other schools in Limerick don't think highly enough of our children to give them a fair chance in whatever school they choose.

Taceom

mcbuffalo wrote: »

........ just because of numbers and nothing else......

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not why the Common Application System is in place at all? Without it some schools would be over subscribed while others would see a serious drop in their numbers.

I can understand your frustration if schools are not following the rules and are cherrypicking their students, but if a school has too many applicants are we to expect that they put up more classrooms etc. to accommodate those students?

What would you consider a fairer yet practical solution?

Delphi91

Taceom wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not why the Common Application System is in place at all? Without it some schools would be over subscribed while others would see a serious drop in their numbers...

Yes and no.

Each school in the CAS must indicate at the start of the process the number of students it intends to take in. This will not prevent a school from being oversubscribed. However, neither will it prevent a school from being undersubscribed.

The system was put in place in an attempt to prevent the blatant "poaching" of students by some second level schools (already suggested in previous posts as, unfortunately, still being done) and also the academic/social apartheid being practiced by other schools where students from certain academic and social areas were being denied access to their nearest schools. This is why there was the initial situation of a number of students not getting a place in their preferred school and why the CAS system was subsequently put in place.

While this has not gone away completely, it has been reduced enormously.

mcbuffalo

While this has not gone away completely, it has been reduced enormously.[/QUOTE]

I think you will find that the pactice of poaching students and of excluding students because of their address etc is still very much alive and well in the same schools that were infamous for these practices in the past. One look at their roll books would confirm this.
The common application system was very necessary at the time,but it now needs a serious overhaul. Putting 12 year old children through hell every year benifits nobody.

mcbuffalo

Taceom wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not why the Common Application System is in place at all? Without it some schools would be over subscribed while others would see a serious drop in their numbers.

I can understand your frustration if schools are not following the rules and are cherrypicking their students, but if a school has too many applicants are we to expect that they put up more classrooms etc. to accommodate those students?

What would you consider a fairer yet practical solution?

While the individual schools continue to be allowed to make their own decisions without having to answer to the dept of education or another independent body the situation will continue as it is. The Dept. of Ed advises schools but has no power to force them to abide by the rules and the dept in effect turns a blind eye to this carry on. If you want to question a schools enrolement activities you appeal to their board of management...which is a joke.

thesimpsons

if you want to question a school's policy then yes, you ask the school's BOM. However, if you want to do an appeal, you take a Section 29 Appeal to the Dept of Education. which then inspects the policy and the school's adherence to it.

The reason the CAS is in place is because 7 years ago, there were approx 15 students left with no offers of places for secondary school. Not because there were no places left in any school, be because the schools of their choice were full (some students hadn't even applied to schools that year hence they couldn't be offered a place !!). The first year of the CAS there were 80 students left with no school places. Most years now there are a small handful of kids with no school offer. This reduced figure is not because the system is working better but because you are now forced to nominate a much larger number of schools into perferred choices. What is so terribly wrong about this system is that if you don't get your first choice school, you have virtually little or no chance of getting your second or third choice school and subsequently end up way down the list of schools which you would not normally consider for your child.

Delphi91

mcbuffalo wrote: »

...I think you will find that the pactice of poaching students and of excluding students because of their address etc is still very much alive and well in the same schools that were infamous for these practices in the past. One look at their roll books would confirm this.
The common application system was very necessary at the time,but it now needs a serious overhaul. Putting 12 year old children through hell every year benifits nobody.

I didn't say that the practice was gone, I said that it had reduced enormously. I am aware of situations where the practice goes on. I think however what you will now find is happening is that some schools are actively discouraging students from applying to them. This can be done on open nights and on visits to the various primary schools. It may not be explicitly stated, but if you read between the lines, the message is obvious and blunt - "we're a very academic school and we place great emphasis on exam results and study, etc, so if you are not strong in this area, then maybe this school is not for you". Or "we don't do practical subjects in the school like woodwork or metalwork, so you'll have to look elsewhere if you want to do those subjects". You'll find that what is done doesn't go against the school's admissions policy, in the sense that a pupil hasn't been denied a place, it just discourages them from applying to the school in the first place. It's "positive discrimination". The school gets the students it wants, nobody is refused a place, and there are no section 29's taken against the school. It's a win-win situation for the school.

Taceom

Delphi91 wrote: »

.......actively discouraging students from applying to them. This can be done on open nights and on visits to the various primary schools. It may not be explicitly stated, but if you read between the lines, the message is obvious and blunt - "we're a very academic school and we place great emphasis on exam results and study, etc, so if you are not strong in this area, then maybe this school is not for you". Or "we don't do practical subjects in the school like woodwork or metalwork, so you'll have to look elsewhere if you want to do those subjects".........

Actively discouraging applicants in this way isn't necessarily a bad thing. Speaking for myself when I went around to open nights I was happy for a school to point out certain subjects not being taken in that school as then I could cross that school off my list. And as for very academic schools - isn't it best to know this in advance especially if your child would struggle in such an environment.

Delphi91

Taceom wrote: »

Actively discouraging applicants in this way isn't necessarily a bad thing. Speaking for myself when I went around to open nights I was happy for a school to point out certain subjects not being taken in that school as then I could cross that school off my list...

It depends on the reasons for actively discouraging them! If it's being done for the benefit of the students, then fine. If on the other hand it's being done to actively discourage students from certain areas coming to the relevant school, then that's a whole different scenario. Please don't tell me it's always the former, because I know of cases where it's not. Let's not kid ourselves here, there is educational apartheid in Limerick.