Heavier weights versus more reps - one for the girls

Stargal

Something I've been wondering about lately: I started my weight programme recently enough and currently am using 8kg weights for dumbbell presses, triceps kickbacks, etc. I can only do about 10-12 repetitions each time with these weights though, usually doing three sets. Would it make more sense to use a lower weight (5-7kg) and do more repetitions (around 20) each time? Or should I keep increasing my weights and stick with 10-12 reps?

I love doing weights - I get a huge kick out of doing them - so this is something I'd like to know more about, especially from people who'd be using these relatively low weights. I'm using them to tone up and to possibly get a bit stronger, if that makes a difference.

Brian?

The same principals apply for men and women really. Progression is the key, if you can do 12 reps with a weight then you should be adding weight on your next session.

As a general rule(I think):

1-5 reps is for strength training
5-8 reps is for a mix of adding size and strength
8-12 is for size.

That's not to say you won't get stronger doing 12 reps or you won't add some size doing 5 reps.

I find it best to do a mix. I do 5 sets of 5 for squats, deadlifts and overhead press. 3x6-8 for other compound movements like bench press, row, lat pulldown etc. 3x10-12 for isolation stuff like bicep curls, calf raises and what not.

You should probably throw your program up, some of the experts might be able to give you better advice that way.

I hope that's some sort of an explanation for you.

Red Cortina

I've just started reading The New Rules of Lifting for Women and it puts it very well. It says 'if you start off lifting 50 pounds ten times, and progress to lifting the same 50 pounds fifteen times, all you've done is increase the endurance of the muscles, which by itself will not make them bigger'.

BTW it also says that 'muscle is hard to build'!!

Chet Zar

First of all - delighted you're doing weights!

The keyword that will hold you in good stead is PROGRESSION.

Just keep progressing in terms of the weights you're lifting - 10-12 reps is a good rep range but what I'd recommend is using a slightly heavier weight for a lower number of reps. So, try 10kg for 6-8 reps and once the 10kg weight is too light for say 3 sets of 6-8 reps, move to 12kg.

You'll soon find yourself getting stronger as the weeks and months go by!

EileenG

Definitely don't lower your weights. If anything, I'd increase them to the point where you have to struggle to finish a set of eight reps. That will really force your body to change.

NASA did a million dollar study, and found that the best results for both muscle gain and bone density, came from lifting 80% of your 1RM for three sets of 8 reps. Also plyometics and sprints.

Women should lift the same way that men do (big lifts like squats, bench, deadlifts etc) but their results will be different. They physically can't get the same size muscles that men would with the same intensity, but you will see a huge difference in your definition, so you'll look shapely rather than smooth or wobbly.

Of course, the odd day of low weights and high reps can be useful. Changing your routine keeps your muscles guessing, and gets better results.

Chet Zar

Some excellent additional reading: www.stumptuous.com

Also: www.gubernatrix.co.uk

Man I wish more women lifted iron

rubadub

Red Cortina wrote: »

It says 'if you start off lifting 50 pounds ten times, and progress to lifting the same 50 pounds fifteen times, all you've done is increase the endurance of the muscles, which by itself will not make them bigger'.

Thats a strange one. You can progress in both ways or a combination, e.g. if you are increasing your reps with the same weight you are getting stronger, I don't think there is an exact magic number. You can use rep calculators to estimate what you could be lifting, I find them quite accurate.

This one estimates if you can do 10 reps with 50lb then your 1RM estimate is 67lb and 15rep max is 41lb. So now if I get to 15reps @50lb it estimates the 1RM as 82lb and the 10reps max at 62lb.

Gymnasts will want to minimise hypertrophy to keep a good strength to body weight ratio (i.e. they do not want un-needed bulky muscles hindering their ability to perform bodyweight exercise) You can see the rep ranges recommended for female gymnasts to minimise & maximise hypertrophy here
http://sportsci.org/jour/0003/was.html

-as above www.stumptuous.com is a good site aimed at women, although as mentioned before there is no real difference.

J-Fit

rubadub wrote: »

Thats a strange one. You can progress in both ways or a combination, e.g. if you are increasing your reps with the same weight you are getting stronger, I don't think there is an exact magic number. You can use rep calculators to estimate what you could be lifting, I find them quite accurate.

This one estimates if you can do 10 reps with 50lb then your 1RM estimate is 67lb and 15rep max is 41lb. So now if I get to 15reps @50lb it estimates the 1RM as 82lb and the 10reps max at 62lb.

Gymnasts will want to minimise hypertrophy to keep a good strength to body weight ratio (i.e. they do not want un-needed bulky muscles hindering their ability to perform bodyweight exercise) You can see the rep ranges recommended for female gymnasts to minimise & maximise hypertrophy here
http://sportsci.org/jour/0003/was.html

-as above www.stumptuous.com is a good site aimed at women, although as mentioned before there is no real difference.

I agree with you. If you look at Wendler's 5/3/1, it's based on lifting the same weight (or slightly more) for an increased number of reps. Do that and you've gotten stronger. The problem when you go above 12 though is that the relationship between strength and reps becomes increasingly inverse so Cressey's book is partly correct too.

Red Cortina

rubadub wrote: »

Thats a strange one. You can progress in both ways or a combination, e.g. if you are increasing your reps with the same weight you are getting stronger, I don't think there is an exact magic number. You can use rep calculators to estimate what you could be lifting, I find them quite accurate.

This one estimates if you can do 10 reps with 50lb then your 1RM estimate is 67lb and 15rep max is 41lb. So now if I get to 15reps @50lb it estimates the 1RM as 82lb and the 10reps max at 62lb.

Gymnasts will want to minimise hypertrophy to keep a good strength to body weight ratio (i.e. they do not want un-needed bulky muscles hindering their ability to perform bodyweight exercise) You can see the rep ranges recommended for female gymnasts to minimise & maximise hypertrophy here
http://sportsci.org/jour/0003/was.html

-as above www.stumptuous.com is a good site aimed at women, although as mentioned before there is no real difference.

Maybe I took the quote out of context??? Here is the full text of the paragraph.

'New Rule No. 4 - Hard work includes lifting heavier weights
It's not enough to progress from lifting the Barbie 'bells fifteen times to lifting them twenty times. It may be an accomplishment - that is, the result of purposeful and exhausting work - but it's not going to make muscles bigger. Muscles grow for a variety of reasons, but the main one is strength. If you force them to get stronger, they will get bigger. If you start lifting 100 pounds five times, but train your body to lift 150 pounds five times, you're going to end up with bigger muscles. But if you start off lifting 50 pounds ten times, and progress to lifting the same 50 pounds fifteen times, all you've done is increase the endurance of the muscles, which by itself will not make them bigger.'

I am certainly no expert here and am only learning about the whole weight training thing myself but I think his 'Rule' was aimed more at the folks who are into doing high reps instead of challenging themselves with heavier weights??? Or maybe he is focused on gaining muscle, unlike the gymnasts who are not looking to gain muscle mass?

Stargal

Thanks for all the advice, some really useful stuff there. I think where I was going wrong was that I kept using the same weight until I could do 10-15 reps easily. So, for example, I was using 5kg for a good few weeks when I could definitely have been doing heavier. Realised about a fortnight ago that it shouldn't be easy, so have moved up pretty steadily. Going to keep going and aim for 9 or 10kg this week (my fitness log is here btw if anyone has any other tips/critiques)

That Stumptuous site looks good - cheers Chet Zar and rubadub for the link. Really appreciate all the feedback; it can be a bit of a vacuum gymming it on your own sometimes.

Easygainer

Haven't posted here in a LONG time, but this is a good place to start again!

My girlfriend recently started coming to the gym with me and, thankfully, is completely receptive to the idea of doing free weights in addition to cardio. This is in contrast to my sister who, no matter what facts I put before her, has it in her head (as many girls do) that any sort of weight lifting will suddenly have her struggling to fit her muscles through doorframes.

As long as you have the technique down, push yourself to get 8-12 reps and focus on free weights exercises. I can't stress the importance of using free weights (and hammer strength machines etc) as much as possible. These will develop your stomach far better than 1000s of stomach crunches ever will - if you can support a heavy weight on your back squatting or lifting it in dead lift, you will have a strong stomach.

I hope noone who is a trainer in a gym gets offended by this, but the major reason why most women stick to machine weights in their programmes is because when they are introduced to weights, the trainers do what is easiest.

It is far easier to get someone to lift in a fixed range of motion and to adjust the weight by moving a pin, than to constantly monitor form and ensure that each technique is correct and balance maintained.

It's good to see girls showing an interest in developing a healthy amount of muscle as this looks far sexier on a girl than being gaunt and over exercised.

beegirl

EileenG wrote: »

NASA did a million dollar study, and found that the best results for both muscle gain and bone density, came from lifting 80% of your 1RM for three sets of 8 reps. Also plyometics and sprints.

What does 1RM mean? I have heard the term before but have never quite figured it out!!!

EileenG

It's the maximum amount you can lift for one rep. In other words, if you were in the weight lifting in the Olympics, the amount you could manage to shift in one single effort using maximum effort.

Very few people except power lifters actually do one rep sets, but you can calculate your 1RM from the amount of weight you can lift for a certain number of sets.

Most people who self select the weight that feels right, tend to pick a weigh that is 60-65% of 1RM. So you need to add about 20% onto the weight that feels right and go for that.

The good news is that with that weight, three sets of eight reps (plus warm-ups) is enough, so you are not spending hours swinging weights.

rubadub

J-Fit wrote: »

the relationship between strength and reps becomes increasingly inverse so Cressey's book is partly correct too.

Red Cortina wrote: »

Maybe I took the quote out of context???

Thanks for posting the paragraph. Maybe I am just overly exact/pedantic, but thats what he sort of came across as being too, very exact, it is sort of inferring you will not get ANY muscle gain at all which I would not agree with -yes it might not be the ideal or most efficient way to add mass. I personally like high reps and have read of guys doing very high rep basic bodyweight exercises (far higher than 15reps) who did claim to get hypertrophy/muscle gains.

Red Cortina wrote: »

Or maybe he is focused on gaining muscle, unlike the gymnasts who are not looking to gain muscle mass?

I think thats the case and he might be just over-emphasising the point. The gymnast link showed 6-20 reps for hypertrophy, I have often read past 15 is for endurance where he appears to be sticking with 10. I have read anecdotes of guys building a good chest doing 100rep pushup sets though.

I have also read a gymnastic coach recommending a "steady state cycle", of 8 weeks, this can be applied to any sort of resistance training. This is starting out doing an exercise, e.g. 10 chinups or holding a static hold for a fixed length of time. Now you continue this for 8 full weeks with NO increase in weight and/or reps. At the end of this time the exercises should be very easy to do, and then you increase the difficulty to a new set point for another 8 weeks. They are usually about 5 reps though.

What does 1RM mean?

As explained above, the RM is "rep max", it could be a 10RM or 8RM, you can estimate them using this http://www.naturalphysiques.com/tools.php?itemid=18

I find it useful in seeing what weight I should use. You should always start out very light on new exercises you are unsure of. So if you can do 20 reps with a low weight you can input the figures and treat that as a warmup set and then figure out how much to add to get you down to say 10reps. I also view the estimates as goals/targets.

Assets Model

good article about this in the indo today: http://www.independent.ie/health/diet-fitness/shape-up-weights-dont-turn-women-into-popeye-2052863.html

Easygainer

rubadub wrote: »

Thanks for posting the paragraph. Maybe I am just overly exact/pedantic, but thats what he sort of came across as being too, very exact, it is sort of inferring you will not get ANY muscle gain at all which I would not agree with -yes it might not be the ideal or most efficient way to add mass. I personally like high reps and have read of guys doing very high rep basic bodyweight exercises (far higher than 15reps) who did claim to get hypertrophy/muscle gains.

I think thats the case and he might be just over-emphasising the point. The gymnast link showed 6-20 reps for hypertrophy, I have often read past 15 is for endurance where he appears to be sticking with 10. I have read anecdotes of guys building a good chest doing 100rep pushup sets though.

I have also read a gymnastic coach recommending a "steady state cycle", of 8 weeks, this can be applied to any sort of resistance training. This is starting out doing an exercise, e.g. 10 chinups or holding a static hold for a fixed length of time. Now you continue this for 8 full weeks with NO increase in weight and/or reps. At the end of this time the exercises should be very easy to do, and then you increase the difficulty to a new set point for another 8 weeks. They are usually about 5 reps though.


As explained above, the RM is "rep max", it could be a 10RM or 8RM, you can estimate them using this http://www.naturalphysiques.com/tools.php?itemid=18

I find it useful in seeing what weight I should use. You should always start out very light on new exercises you are unsure of. So if you can do 20 reps with a low weight you can input the figures and treat that as a warmup set and then figure out how much to add to get you down to say 10reps. I also view the estimates as goals/targets.

OK, I'll try to answer this in two parts.

1) It is a myth that high reps "tone muscle" low reps "build muscle" and really low reps are only for strength. Once a muscle is damaged and forced to grow larger (hypertrophy) there will be some growth.

However, you have white (fast twitch) and red (slow twitch)* muscle. Fast twitch muscle is explosive, and bulgier, and generally used for bursts of strength. If you look at Olympic sprint cyclists or 100m sprinters, you will see they have very muscular legs. This is because of an abundance (genetic) of white fast twitch muscles. These people have bigger muscles, play a sport that involves explosive bursts of strength and would generally train for power, not endurance.

Red slow twitch muscle is more sinewy and flat than white muscle. This is more beneficial to endurance - although red muscles don't have the same power, strength or size as white twitch, they have superior endurance. Look at East African endurance runners - they have lean legs and a light muscular build. They have an abundance of red twitch muscle, ideal for endurance but smaller and not as powerful.

Conclusion? Any training that puts stress on the muscles will stimulate growth, however, you want to promote white twitch muscles in a weights routine as these give shape and power.

Ideally keep your weights in a rep range of 6-15, whatever feels most comfortable for you. This need never change - do not change reps when dieting!

This rep range should help you find your groove, varying on your body type, to train effectively. I have a lot of white twitch muscle and can hardly lift 70% of my 1RM 8 times, yet I can lift heavy weights explosively a lot easier. Therefore, I prefer lower reps, around 6, based on my body type.

2) Ultimately, the rep range, weights etc used are irrelevant if the diet is off! Even if you are lifting Goliath weights, if you do not eat adequately, you won't have the building blocks to recover and grow larger muscle tissue.

Similarly, you can train as long and hard as you want, if you over eat, you will be fat. Food is more determinative of body composition than any weights regime, drugs or otherwise. Food controls everything.

Gymnasts were under-nourished and mal-nourished to stunt growth. (I wouldn't be surprised if they were given mild anabolics/estrogen to stunt growth)




**The way to remember that red is slow twitch, white is fast twitch, is that the cow moves slowly and takes its time grazing. Cows have red meat, slow twitch.

Chickens leg it around and make sudden bursts with their chests to peck at seeds. When they try and fly they make (hilarious) attempts at flapping quickly. Chicken is white, fast meat.


Feel free to ask any questions.

Transform

Stargal wrote: »

Thanks for all the advice, some really useful stuff there. I think where I was going wrong was that I kept using the same weight until I could do 10-15 reps easily. So, for example, I was using 5kg for a good few weeks when I could definitely have been doing heavier. Realised about a fortnight ago that it shouldn't be easy, so have moved up pretty steadily. Going to keep going and aim for 9 or 10kg this week (my fitness log is here btw if anyone has any other tips/critiques)

That Stumptuous site looks good - cheers Chet Zar and rubadub for the link. Really appreciate all the feedback; it can be a bit of a vacuum gymming it on your own sometimes.

yes keep increasing the weights and throw in more work for your hamstrings and legs in general.