I think i need religion.

lostboy

a friend of mine(14) committed suicide and was buried quiet recently, it is still quiet fresh in my mind and it has got me thinking.

I am 19 and agnostic but am a member of the catholic church, it was a catholic funeral.

one thing prominent in my mind is whether she has gone on to an afterlife or shes simply gone. she believed in an afterlife but i dunno how religious she was. She was a good person

i know by posting here i wont get any sort of definitive answer im after but in the eyes of a christian where is she gone? I find it hard to believe shes just finished and hope her soul/spirit lives on in some form.Like there has to be something, i would hate to think in 50-60 years my consciousness will simply cease to exist. I cannot fathom it,even in sleeping you have dreams which although isnt physically conscious it is still a sort of consciousness i feel.


I have a few other questions on christianity i would like to add aswell as it may well correct my misconceptions.


Where do non christians go when they die?
Are different christian religions i.e catholic and protestant compatible?
do catholics think protestant and other christians goto hell and vice versa.
is there any christian religion compatible with homosexuality.
Whats to say christianity is the right religion and when we die we may end up facing a god from a different religion.
Is it possible to be a good christian without subscribing to any of the current christian religions and just saying you are a christian as opposed to I am catholic or I am protestant etc.
What happens to an athiest when they die
I am an occasional Cannabis user.how do christians view this and would it be considered a sin?

I am asking these questions as I am considering practicing my religion again but not nessesarily as a catholic as I may well fit in better to another christian religion

thanks for listening.

p.s. this may look fairly trolly being a first post and all that but it is far from that

Turtwig

lostboy wrote: »

I am an occasional Cannabis user.how do christians view this and would it be considered a sin?

Right, I'm not a Christian but...
STOP!! You don't need to use it.

gav240

Malty_T wrote: »

Right, I'm not a Christian but...
STOP!! You don't need to use it.

oh i laughed

oh how i laughed

gav240

and then laughed some more

gav240

wait if you stop smoking you'll go to heaven



jaysus i'm in tears here

lostboy

no need to rip the piss lads, it is a genuine question and this thread is not about wether i should or shouldnt be using it

Fanny Cradock

Welcome to the forum, Lostboy.

You raise some big questions, maybe the biggest that can be asked by anyone. So I think it might take a little time for people to respond

My condolences to you.




*Mod hat on*
Folks, this reminder is obviously strictly for paper work purposes :pac:. Let's treat this topic with the respect it deserves. No points scoring and no bickering.
*Mod hat off*

Fanny Cradock

Humm... it seems that in the few minutes it took me to type my post, a troll entered the building.

Gav has been banned, no more messing.

Turtwig

Malty_T wrote: »

Right, I'm not a Christian but...
STOP!! You don't need to use it.

Now that I've got bit out of the way.

Firstly,
Sorry about your friend. Also, I'd recommend starting a similar thread in A&A.

Where do non christians go when they die?

According to most Christian denominations they'll end up in state or place known as hell. As to what exactly hell is can vary. Some view God as supreme being of righteousness, usually in this view hell is a place of eternal torment and suffering for sins committed during the mortal life. Others view it as state of absence from God.

Are different christian religions i.e catholic and protestant compatible?
do catholics think protestant and other christians goto hell and vice versa.

Many would argue that yes they are compatible.

is there any christian religion compatible with homosexuality.

There are some views of Christianity that don't view homosexual acts as a sin. Most however do view them as one.

Whats to say christianity is the right religion and when we die we may end up facing a god from a different religion.

That's a matter of faith and examination of the evidence that supports it.

Is it possible to be a good christian without subscribing to any of the current christian religions and just saying you are a christian as opposed to I am catholic or I am protestant etc.

Possibly, some Christians do seem to think so. Many others would obviously disagree.

What happens to an athiest when they die

Well following Christian doctrine they must end up in hell.

miss hell

oh jesus. Forget about religion. You don't need religion to give you a sense that your soul is going somewhere. Just be spiritual..... nearly every religion teaches some great things. But it's important to think for yourself. It's too easy for your brain to be taken in by all these beliefs and rules that will make you think your life has direction. But just think for yourself!!!! I don't believe we just cease to exist after we die. But I certainly do not think that there is some supernatural being in the sky telling us that we don't belong in heaven and so he sends us to hell!

Rev Hellfire

lostboy wrote: »

Where do non christians go when they die?

As stated by malty_t some christians belive an express elevator to hell awaits them, though that been said more mainstream churchs believe otherwise. The catholic church hold the 'hope' that those worthy are offered a place in heaven. Other churches believe likewise.
So I guess its simply more extreme christians believe hell while more moderate christians believe a loving god would allow a final chance for salvation once you've got the *ahem* evidence before you.

lostboy wrote: »

Are different christian religions i.e catholic and protestant compatible?

Clearly it depends on the church, but consider that mixed ceremonies are not uncommon here in Ireland between the Catholic church and say Church of Ireland. That alone would indicate they are.

Naturally more extreme Christian sects believe otherwise.

lostboy wrote: »

do catholics think protestant and other christians goto hell and vice versa.

Again mainstream churches believe no, while the more extreme would in some cases say yes. You noticing a trend here

lostboy wrote: »

is there any christian religion compatible with homosexuality.

Most Christians religions reject homosexuality the act, but not the person.

lostboy wrote: »

Whats to say christianity is the right religion and when we die we may end up facing a god from a different religion.

What indeed. The question then to ask yourself is what sort of god would you believe yourself to most likely be facing. One which judges you on your actions or one which simply was simply looking for sheep with grazed knee's.
tbh that's one only you can answer for yourself.

lostboy wrote: »

Is it possible to be a good christian without subscribing to any of the current christian religions and just saying you are a christian as opposed to I am catholic or I am protestant etc.

Ofcourse you can, the preconditions are rather simple.

lostboy wrote: »

What happens to an athiest when they die

See the first answer.

lostboy wrote: »

I am an occasional Cannabis user.how do christians view this and would it be considered a sin?

I'd turn that around and ask you do you feel guilty yourself, the rightness or wrongness lies there.

lostboy wrote: »

I am asking these questions as I am considering practicing my religion again but not nessesarily as a catholic as I may well fit in better to another christian religion

I'd say take it slowly and don't rush into anything.

homer911

I wish these A&A people would take their comments to their own forum - As Malty_T suggested, open a thread over there if you want a non-Christian response, but the OP posted here!

As regards the whole Catholic/Protestant questions, you should find that people recognise its a personal matter and not a generalisation, but you will find those who dismiss entire denominations without any thought or understanding. The fact is that there are many individuals in both main Christian faiths that would recognise that committed christians exist in both, but also that many cultural christians exist in both - its impossible to generalise.

As regards these two christian faiths being compatable - in the core fundamentals of faith - yes they are - its usually the stuff not important for salvation that they disagree on

OP, I suggest you focus your thoughts on the fundamentals of christian faith first of all, before choosing which church is right for you

AtomicHorror

Lostboy, I am deeply sorry to hear of your loss. As one who has suffered similar loss, though perhaps not as close to the heart, I can empathise. On faith, I cannot sincerely say that it ever really helped me in any of my darkest times. It gave me temporary solace, but despite an earnest search for peace and meaning, it ultimately failed me entirely. It wasn't until I learned to define my own meaning, my own conditions for happiness, that I actually got on the road to being happy. I hope that doesn't sound too "self-help"!

homer911 wrote: »

I wish these A&A people would take their comments to their own forum - As Malty_T suggested, open a thread over there if you want a non-Christian response, but the OP posted here!

As long as the responses are respectful, I'm pretty sure there's no grounds at all for such an arrangement. If the OP posted first on A&A and you guys tried to argue for faith, you would not be asked to stop trying. The purpose of this forum is surely not to shelter you or others from dissenting views, else there are plenty of threads that shouldn't be here. Make a convincing argument for your position and stop worrying that people disagree.

PDN

lostboy,
Christianity is about getting to know Jesus Christ and having a relationship with Him. That means that we seek His will and try to avoid the things that displease Him - pretty much like many other relationships.

Asking which churches allow which kind of behaviour is, to my way of thinking, a bit like putting the cart before the horse. Far better to concentrate on getting to know Jesus first and then afterwards to try to work out what He wants you to do and what He wants you to avoid.

St Augustine famously said something along the lines of, "Love God with all your heart and then do whatever you like!" - the implication being that if you really love God then you'll begin to like the right kind of stuff.

So, the answer is not to say, "I'd like to become a Christian at a church that will let me smoke weed" - but rather to try to get to know Jesus without locking yourself into a particular sect or denomination (Alpha courses, backed by all the main churches, are a great introduction to Christian faith www.alphacourse.ie). Then you can choose a church that fits with what you feel Jesus is saying to you about how you should live and worship.

Antbert

Whats to say christianity is the right religion and when we die we may end up facing a god from a different religion.

This is the best question you've asked, and I think one of the major fundamental flaws with organised religion. I've yet to see a good religious response to it.

homer911 wrote: »

I wish these A&A people would take their comments to their own forum - As Malty_T suggested, open a thread over there if you want a non-Christian response, but the OP posted here!

*AHEM*
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055735997&page=3

chozometroid

lostboy wrote: »

a friend of mine(14) committed suicide and was buried quiet recently, it is still quiet fresh in my mind and it has got me thinking.

I am 19 and agnostic but am a member of the catholic church, it was a catholic funeral.

one thing prominent in my mind is whether she has gone on to an afterlife or shes simply gone. she believed in an afterlife but i dunno how religious she was. She was a good person

i know by posting here i wont get any sort of definitive answer im after but in the eyes of a christian where is she gone?

Well, first of all, no one is "good" in this world. I suppose we call people good based on what we do know, but we all fall short of the true standard for good.
That said, your friend still had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior, and accept the gift of salvation.
As for where she is going, only God knows. He is the judge and will treat her justly. I'm not sure if suicide is an automatic ticket to "hell."
It would depend on her reasoning and state of mind, I would think. If she rejected the life that God gave her and just "gave up" based on her own power to overcome her difficulties, then she basically rejected God. However, if she was not mentally capable or perhaps afflicted by demons, then she was not actually in control of her life. God will judge her accordingly.

Where do non christians go when they die?

Instead of using labels, we can say that those who reject God do not spend eternity with Him in heaven.

Are different christian religions i.e catholic and protestant compatible?

Depends on how vague you want to be in defining what your religious beliefs are.

do catholics think protestant and other christians goto hell and vice versa.

Once again, without using labels we can say that the true followers of Christ will spend eternity with Him in heaven.

is there any christian religion compatible with homosexuality.

Members of every denomination have accepted it to varying degrees. I'm sure all modern evangelicals are at least accepting of the homosexual as an individual, but not the act. It's the same with accepting sinners (we all are sinners) and not accepting the sin. Every individual has a different stance.

Whats to say christianity is the right religion and when we die we may end up facing a god from a different religion.

No one can know this. You must decide for yourself. It's not up to us to convince you. The Holy Spirit is real and will do the work of impressing upon people the need for Christ and the conviction of sins.

Is it possible to be a good christian without subscribing to any of the current christian religions and just saying you are a christian as opposed to I am catholic or I am protestant etc.

I'm sure it is, but fellowship with other believers is important and healthy for spiritual growth.

What happens to an athiest when they die

They die and cease to exist.

I am an occasional Cannabis user.how do christians view this and would it be considered a sin?

Abusing drugs or foods is a sin, as well as mistreating your body.
As to "occasional cannibis use," there is no definite answer. It is "natural" and has been shown to be good for chronic pain, but what are your reasons?

kelly1

Hello LostBoy, welcome to the forum. I'll do my best to answer your questions from a Catholic perspective.

lostboy wrote: »

a friend of mine(14) committed suicide and was buried quiet recently, it is still quiet fresh in my mind and it has got me thinking.

I'm very sorry to hear that. I pray God will bring you comfort.

lostboy wrote: »

i know by posting here i wont get any sort of definitive answer im after but in the eyes of a christian where is she gone?

That's a difficult one to answer of course but I certainly believe that God is full of mercy and that Jesus died for her and our sins.

lostboy wrote: »

Where do non christians go when they die?

Nobody knows. It depends on how much they loved God and neighbour. Christianity teaches that all salvation is through Christ but not that only Christians can be saved.

lostboy wrote: »

Are different christian religions i.e catholic and protestant compatible?

There are many significant differences particularly when it comes to the sacraments. Protestant /evangelical theology about the sacraments is very different to the Catholic view. In Catholicism, the sacraments (baptism, confirmation, Eucharist, marriage, holy order and anointing of the sick) are very much central to the worship of God. We believe that the sacraments communicate divine grace in a very profound way to the entire Church and not just the individual. The Eucharist is the chief among the sacraments because Christ's entire humanity and divinity is present in the Eucharist. This the greatest treasure that the Church posesses.

lostboy wrote: »

do catholics think protestant and other christians goto hell and vice versa.

I would be very wrong to think so. God's mercy is open to everyone. But to have any kind of assurance of salvation it is necessary to follow Christ and to believe that He died for our sins and that He's the Son of God.

lostboy wrote: »

is there any christian religion compatible with homosexuality.

No. There are of course liberal groups who see no problem with homosexual acts but it cleary goes against the teaching of the Church and the bible.

lostboy wrote: »

Whats to say christianity is the right religion and when we die we may end up facing a god from a different religion.

Very hard to answer this one in a short space, it deserves another thread really. I think the important points which give credence to Christianity are:

- The fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies in Jesus
- The power, authority and miracles of Jesus in the Gospels
- The evidence for the Resurrection
- It is a religion which is totally concerned with love of God and neighbour and rejects selfishness. There are too many religions which are self-centered.
- Testimonies of the Catholic saints who had profound relationships with God. I would for instance recommend you read the "Diary of St. Faustina". It's an incredible book about her very real relationship with Jesus and the message of God's mercy and love.
- Testimonies of people (like me) who repented and converted to following Christ.

lostboy wrote: »

Is it possible to be a good christian without subscribing to any of the current christian religions and just saying you are a christian as opposed to I am catholic or I am protestant etc.

It's far from ideal. Christianity isn't an individual thing. The sense of community among the worshipers who make up the "Body of Christ" is very important. I would point out that the Church you're a member of is the same Church founded by Christ 2000 years ago. I would encourage you to research that.

lostboy wrote: »

What happens to an athiest when they die

I wouldn't like to make a call on that but the bible tells us that those who don't believe will be condemned. Of course if you know nothing about Jesus that's a different matter. I'm talking about people who make the decision to reject Christ like I did.

lostboy wrote: »

I am an occasional Cannabis user.how do christians view this and would it be considered a sin?

Yes because it's an abuse of the body which God gave you and also a form of escapism which might in some way replace reliance on God.

lostboy wrote: »

I am asking these questions as I am considering practicing my religion again but not nessesarily as a catholic as I may well fit in better to another christian religion.

I would strongly encourage you to remain where you are. If it's truth you're after, you're in the right place and also if you switch to a Protestant/evangelical church, you'll loose out on the great gift of the sacraments.

lostboy wrote: »

p.s. this may look fairly trolly being a first post and all that but it is far from that

No, I thought it was a very good, genuine, honest post!

Like PDN said, Christianity is all about our relationship with Jesus. Through prayer, reading the bible and the sacraments, we open ourselves up to the wonderful grace of Christ and start to see things in a totally new light.

God bless you in your journey!
Noel.

kelly1

Antbert wrote: »

This is the best question you've asked, and I think one of the major fundamental flaws with organised religion. I've yet to see a good religious response to it.

Hello, I would recommend you read the case for Christ by Lee Strobel for good arguments for Christ.

Antbert

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello, I would recommend you read the case for Christ by Lee Strobel for good arguments for Christ.

I will investigate my library!

Dean820

Malty_T wrote: »

What happens to an atheist when they die?

Well following Christian doctrine they must end up in hell.

So if you're a good person but not a christian you still go to hell? That makes sense. :rolleyes:

Antbert

Dean820 wrote: »

So if you're a good person but not a christian you still go to hell? That makes sense. :rolleyes:

Luckily, the thought of hell doesn't really bother many atheists.

PDN

If atheists want to discuss hell among themselves then they have a forum where they can do so.

The Christian position is that nobody is actually good - so good people don't go to hell.

Dean820

What in their view is good? I mean, it doesn't really make sense to me.

PDN

Dean820 wrote: »

What in their view is good? I mean, it doesn't really make sense to me.

God is good. Everyone else has sinned.

Soul Winner

Antbert wrote: »

Luckily, the thought of hell doesn't really bother many atheists.

Well of course it doesn't, they don't believe it exists, why would they be bothered about it? Only people who truly believe that hell exists will try to avoid such a place. Hell is like heaven in one sense, if it does exist, then it's existence is not dependent on whether people believe in it or not. It just IS. The criteria for its existence is not based on how many people believe in it. Theist believing in hell is not going to create one if it doesn't exist, and atheists not being bothered about hell is not going to make it disappear if it does exist.

Antbert

PDN wrote: »

If atheists want to discuss hell among themselves then they have a forum where they can do so.

The Christian position is that nobody is actually good - so good people don't go to hell.

I was more saying that atheists can't see 'being damned to hell' as a threat, because we don't believe in it. So it wouldn't exactly worry us.

We can rant about Christians believing good people go to hell, and the flaws in that logic, but that's not what I was saying there.

Dean820

PDN wrote: »

God is good. Everyone else has sinned.

But why would God allow us to sin in the first place?

Antbert

Uh oh... I sense tension...

Dean820

I'm not trying to cause trouble here. I'm not one of those know-all atheists. I'm asking questions which have been on my mind since well, a kid. One of the worse things I've experienced in my life is losing my faith. I wish I had it again.

PDN

Dean820 wrote: »

But why would God allow us to sin in the first place?

Because He gave us free will rather than creating us as pre-programmed pets.

chozometroid

Sin is a "side effect" of free will. Doing anything than trusting what God says, is sin.

Even though we all are sinners by nature, we can by transformed and take upon us the nature of Christ. We then willingly allow God to guide us and follow His perfect will, which is best for our lives. So, through our free will, we reject sin and follow God.

It's like training for the Olympics. We have to have a coach. We have the potential, but the coach has the knowledge and just wants us to listen and take His perfect advice. We have the choice to not listen to the coach, and by doing so, not make the Olympics.

Turtwig

Dean820 wrote: »

One of the worse things I've experienced in my life is losing my faith. I wish I had it again.

Now you have to create a thread in A&A about this.

It's like training for the Olympics. We have to have a coach. We have the potential, but the coach has the knowledge and just wants us to listen and take His perfect advice. We have the choice to not listen to the coach, and by doing so, not make the Olympics.

I like that analogy.:)

As for Atheists if hell exists.

lostboy

Thanks for the replies, I feel they are helping me understand things more, it might take me some time to think on things and as such i may not reply for a while

thanks.

Fanny Cradock

lostboy wrote: »

one thing prominent in my mind is whether she has gone on to an afterlife or shes simply gone. she believed in an afterlife but i dunno how religious she was. She was a good person

i know by posting here i wont get any sort of definitive answer im after but in the eyes of a christian where is she gone? I find it hard to believe shes just finished and hope her soul/spirit lives on in some form.Like there has to be something, i would hate to think in 50-60 years my consciousness will simply cease to exist. I cannot fathom it,even in sleeping you have dreams which although isnt physically conscious it is still a sort of consciousness i feel.

To be honest, none of use are able to answer that question. We simply don't know what her relationship with God was.

lostboy wrote: »

Where do non christians go when they die?

It is a difficult question to address. There is some precedent for an answer though. The Old Testament deals with the Israelite's over a large time period. Their story pre-dated Jesus (there was obviously no Christianity before Jesus), but Christianity believes that people like Moses were indeed saved. I believe that God is a just God. I see no reason to believe that a person living 1000 years ago in Papua New Guinea or wherever would be condemned to hell (what I think of as eternal separation from God) because of an unfortunate mix of bad timing and geographical location.

lostboy wrote: »

Are different christian religions i.e catholic and protestant compatible?

A point of clarification that might help you. There is the Christian religion (singular), there aren't Christian religions (plural). I think you are getting denomination confused with religion. A denomination is a sub-set of a religion.

Back to your question. It depends who you ask. Largely I would say they are. While there exist points of tension between all denominations (some more serious than others), at the heart Christian denominations are about Christ. Without this I don't believe they should be considered Christian. Mormonism would be an example.

lostboy wrote: »

do catholics think protestant and other christians goto hell and vice versa.

Well, I've encountered a few people who believe that there own denomination is the "only way", but I'm not sure where they get this from. It seems to me that they have to appeal to something extraneous to the fundamentals of Christianity. The relationship with Jesus - someone who we believe to be a real person - is central to Christianity, nothing else.

lostboy wrote: »

is there any christian religion compatible with homosexuality.

Homosexuality isn't considered to be a sin. Homosexual acts that are considered sinful and therefore incompatible with Christianity. Still, there are some denominations like Episcopal Church in the USA (part of the Anglican tradition - protestantism in other words) that have elected openly gay people to positions of power. Bishop Gene Robinson would be an example of a gay man who is also sexually active. This has caused much tension between those who oppose and those who support such appointments.

lostboy wrote: »

Whats to say christianity is the right religion and when we die we may end up facing a god from a different religion.

Well, that really is a matter for you to decide. There really is no quick answer to your question. You are going to have to investigate the claims of Christianity and see how coherent they are. I know of somebody who decided to embark on a fairly exhaustive investigation of the major religions after he had a life changing experience. After about 4 years he came to the conclusion that Christianity was the truth. Now this may not prove anything independently - you can't prove that your not a brain in a jar and reality is just a dream, for example - but we all operate in degrees of certainty. Investigate the evidence for Christianity with an open mind and you might be convinced. Equally you might not be convinced. But the only way is to find out for yourself is to begin looking.

Your post here might be the first page in this story of searching for the truth.

lostboy wrote: »

Is it possible to be a good christian without subscribing to any of the current christian religions and just saying you are a christian as opposed to I am catholic or I am protestant etc.

Yes, I would think so. I would describe myself as a non-denominational Christian. Religion is an attempt to connect with God. Invariably it is a flawed attempt. So I would be worried about people who are more concerned with displaying the label of their denomination, rather than the central reason for their denomination existing - Jesus. To me it is the equivalent of buying the t-shirt but never having been there.

lostboy wrote: »

what happens to an athiest when they die

I can't say for certain, but I believe that they are eternally separated from God. It's not because they are bad people, and Christians are somehow good people. The answer is a little more complicated.

lostboy wrote: »

I am an occasional Cannabis user.how do christians view this and would it be considered a sin?

It is an interesting question. One I've been meaning to ask myself. Is excess the problem? Or is it the drug itself? Alcohol it seems is demonstrably more damaging than cannabis in a number of ways. So why is one accepted and the other not?

I used to do quite a bit of drugs back in the day. I stopped and feel better for it. That's not an answer, but perhaps it is an option to consider.

lostboy wrote: »

I am asking these questions as I am considering practicing my religion again but not nessesarily as a catholic as I may well fit in better to another christian religion

Perhaps! You actually have the choice now. As has been suggested, why not try out something like an Alpha course. It wont answer all your questions, but perhaps you will be better orientated after it. Free biscuits and all:pac:

If you are in Dublin you might want to give Trinity, St. Mark's or CORE a try. (I think each of the links will have a section that briefly outlines their central beliefs.)

lostboy

just 2 things i would like to address here

Where i live there is a sign outside the local presbiterian church for alpha courses so i might look that up.

When i posted here i didnt add in the cannabis question until later on when it came into my mind.

Just regarding this, I would use recreationally every now and then but its not really a problem and i would smoke with friends. I do not drink very often though(I have my reasons, I am not an alcoholic or anything like that).
Would your answer to this question be the same if i substituted the word cannabis for alcohol? Alcohol is ok in the bible isnt it? The reason i ask is because i would consider cigarettes and alcohol to be recreational drugs also so would they not be just as bad in the eyes of god?
the only difference i currently see is that one is legal and the other isnt,


again i dont want the thread to be centered on this but i thought from reading the replies i left it a bit vague about what and when i do use so i thought i would clear it up.

Dean820

Malty_T wrote: »

Now you have to create a thread in A&A about this.

lol, why is that?

Turtwig

Dean820 wrote: »

lol, why is that?

You stated something that would lead to a very stimulating discussion in A&A.
'I wish had my faith back and losing it was of the worst experiences in your life.' Go on, make one!

Sam Vimes

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I believe that God is a just God. I see no reason to believe that a person living 1000 years ago in Papua New Guinea or wherever would be condemned to hell (what I think of as eternal separation from God) because of an unfortunate mix of bad timing and geographical location.

And I see no reason why someone should be condemned to hell for not finding one of thousands of old stories any more convincing than any other since not finding something convincing is not a choice, you're either convinced or you're not and if you're not all you can do is lie to yourself and others, including god and pretend you are

But thems the breaks

Fanny Cradock

Maybe those who experienced a distorted version of the Message will be judged differently. I've no idea what God will do! I also have no idea why you feel so certain that a being you don't believe is compelled to act in a certain way.

Furthermore, I think you are talking rubbish when you state that conviction is without choice. Really, pull the other one! A not inconsiderable amount of energy from some atheists is given over to informing Christians that they have consciously or sub-consciously deluded themselves into a worldview that ignores the apparent overwhelming probability that God doesn't exist.

I'm not in the mood for a 5-page special. You are an atheist, you think it's all a load of rubbish and you want to point that out. I get it! Please take it to another thread if you want to discuss this further.

lostboy

I have another question, someone wanting to be dead but not able to kill themselfs (a deathwish) if they get killed knowingly putting themself into harms way would it be viewed as a sin akin to suicide or somthing else? ( a classic example would be Martin Riggs from lethal weapon.)

another way i was looking also, I ride motorbikes,I ride them hard,I know i should slow down but i love the thrill i get from riding them the way I do. Its not nessesarily dangerous as i do take proper precautions and obey the rules of the road. but that is for another thread. SO take into account if i have a fatal accident that isnt my fault(or is for that matter) Have i committed sin for abusing my body or would the fact that it is an accident come into play?(Like i know if i was taking a corner and i purposefully didnt steer it would be different from if I lost control and crashed) to add to it I know the safety gear that i wear could be better so would it be considered unnssesary abuse if i had a spill. now when i say slow down i would take corners and that hard but usually stay within speed limits

Taking for example if it is a sin, and i am killed at the accident or later die in a coma or such but never had a chance to beg god for forgiveness how does that work out?

anyway i dont want to die but i was able to get a bit of a proper bike ride today(for the first time in a very long time!) and i thought if i died doing this I would have died doing somthing i loved rather than dying of natural causes or anything else.


This has also been on my mind, I am all about accepting science and the big bang being the beginning of everything. The idea of an intelligent designer facinates me as does the thinking "what caused the big bang and what was there before it" this is somthing our science upto today has not been able to prove and getting into it would also beg the question, where did the big bang happen? Of course this allows me to think perhaps god did infact create the big bang and does exist.

Another thing that just entered my mind,I believe in our universe that there has to be life on other planets, no matter how small or insignifigent or intelligent or not, we simply do not know because we do not know the entirety of our universe, but this thinking sort of goes against the intelligent designer theory, or maybe he designed things we do not yet know about.

Perhaps god created this entire universe we live in,and maybe it is in a place in heaven that he decided(not heaven exactly but a place in his "realm" for want of a better word.) what was he doing before he created us as if he is an eternal being there must have been a time before this universe where he was doing "somthing" or perhaps he has created several universes and takes the same god role in each of them. What Created god?



now obviously there is nobody anywhere who could answer the above but surely if hes eternal he must have been doing somthing before us even if we dont know what.


ok so that was a lot of typing, i only expected myself to write the first few paragraphs but these things started entering my mind and i just put them down so they might not exactly be clear but i will edit it tomorrow if somthing looks unclear. I know it is all a bit philosophical and again might come accross as trolling but it just sort of entered my mind and i could not stop typing.

I was happily going along as an agnostic person with no real interest in religion but the death of my friend has actually terrified me to the core that "this is it" and nothing happens when we die. Your replies have helped me understand things a bit more and that includes the athiest replies but I am feeling areas of christianity are making a lot more sense to me than they used to.Even just typing this post has helped me with my faith to some degree. That said it will take me a good bit more time before i can decided on anything one way or another but i would certainly like to extend a thanks to all those that have replied to me.

chozometroid

lostboy wrote: »

I have another question, someone wanting to be dead but not able to kill themselfs (a deathwish) if they get killed knowingly putting themself into harms way would it be viewed as a sin akin to suicide or somthing else? ( a classic example would be Martin Riggs from lethal weapon.)

If someone knowingly throws themselves into harm's way for the purpose of dying, it sure is suicide. Dying while saving someone without having your own deathwish in the process is certainly not suicide.

another way i was looking also, I ride motorbikes,I ride them hard,I know i should slow down but i love the thrill i get from riding them the way I do. Its not nessesarily dangerous as i do take proper precautions and obey the rules of the road. but that is for another thread. SO take into account if i have a fatal accident that isnt my fault(or is for that matter) Have i committed sin for abusing my body or would the fact that it is an accident come into play?(Like i know if i was taking a corner and i purposefully didnt steer it would be different from if I lost control and crashed) to add to it I know the safety gear that i wear could be better so would it be considered unnssesary abuse if i had a spill. now when i say slow down i would take corners and that hard but usually stay within speed limits

Taking for example if it is a sin, and i am killed at the accident or later die in a coma or such but never had a chance to beg god for forgiveness how does that work out?

anyway i dont want to die but i was able to get a bit of a proper bike ride today(for the first time in a very long time!) and i thought if i died doing this I would have died doing somthing i loved rather than dying of natural causes or anything else.

I think God would like us to be responsible with the life He gave us. Being reckless and causing yourself harm or death is certainly not acceptable. How God judges this no one can say. I would suggest that you think about what God would like you to do with your life, and make the most of it. Staying healthy mentally and physically will allow you to be the best vessel for doing God's work and helping others.

This has also been on my mind, I am all about accepting science and the big bang being the beginning of everything. The idea of an intelligent designer facinates me as does the thinking "what caused the big bang and what was there before it" this is somthing our science upto today has not been able to prove and getting into it would also beg the question, where did the big bang happen? Of course this allows me to think perhaps god did infact create the big bang and does exist.

That is the thinking among many theists. In what ever way the universe was created, there seems to be a Creator Mind behind it. This is always up for debate, of course, and cannot be proven one way or the other.

Another thing that just entered my mind,I believe in our universe that there has to be life on other planets, no matter how small or insignifigent or intelligent or not, we simply do not know because we do not know the entirety of our universe, but this thinking sort of goes against the intelligent designer theory, or maybe he designed things we do not yet know about.

We have no way of knowing what else God is up to in this current universe. It's possible there are thousands of worlds like ours with a similar or completely different "story" going on. Perhaps on some world, man did not succumb to Satan's temptation.

Perhaps god created this entire universe we live in,and maybe it is in a place in heaven that he decided(not heaven exactly but a place in his "realm" for want of a better word.) what was he doing before he created us as if he is an eternal being there must have been a time before this universe where he was doing "somthing" or perhaps he has created several universes and takes the same god role in each of them. What Created god?

Maybe God was "doing" something that cannot even be comprehended by our minds. It may have been an "action" taking place in a "world" which both exist in completely different terms than we have words for. Like the difference between "hearing" a "sound" and "eating" an "apple." This could be the difference between God "creating" this "universe" and "doing something" to/with/at "something else." If He was "doing" anything and it did not involve time, then we certainly cannot comprehend it as even being an "action" that has duration. Have fun with your thoughts, but do not be consumed by things that only confuse and distract. There are only so many things we can know or comprehend in our current state.

I was happily going along as an agnostic person with no real interest in religion but the death of my friend has actually terrified me to the core that "this is it" and nothing happens when we die. Your replies have helped me understand things a bit more and that includes the athiest replies but I am feeling areas of christianity are making a lot more sense to me than they used to.Even just typing this post has helped me with my faith to some degree. That said it will take me a good bit more time before i can decided on anything one way or another but i would certainly like to extend a thanks to all those that have replied to me.

Glad to hear you are taking a serious look at life and your relationship with God. He's been waiting there all along for your to start spending some time with Him. Relationships require time and effort, like those with your family for instance. You know how close you are to people you see everyday and share feelings with? And how distant you are with people you only talk to once every couple months?
Take care and you are in our prayers.

Fanny Cradock

lostboy wrote: »

I have another question, someone wanting to be dead but not able to kill themselfs (a deathwish) if they get killed knowingly putting themself into harms way would it be viewed as a sin akin to suicide or somthing else? ( a classic example would be Martin Riggs from lethal weapon.)

I would think that there is a difference between suicide (which I think is a tragedy, not a sin), endangering yourself (we all do this to one extent or another) and a wilful sacrifice (a soldier throwing himself on top of a grenade to save his comrades, for example.)

lostboy wrote: »

another way i was looking also, I ride motorbikes,I ride them hard,I know i should slow down but i love the thrill i get from riding them the way I do. Its not nessesarily dangerous as i do take proper precautions and obey the rules of the road. but that is for another thread. SO take into account if i have a fatal accident that isnt my fault(or is for that matter) Have i committed sin for abusing my body or would the fact that it is an accident come into play?(Like i know if i was taking a corner and i purposefully didnt steer it would be different from if I lost control and crashed) to add to it I know the safety gear that i wear could be better so would it be considered unnssesary abuse if i had a spill. now when i say slow down i would take corners and that hard but usually stay within speed limits

Taking for example if it is a sin, and i am killed at the accident or later die in a coma or such but never had a chance to beg god for forgiveness how does that work out?

I'm not sure it is a sin. It might just be plain old stupidity! (No offence )

lostboy wrote: »

This has also been on my mind, I am all about accepting science and the big bang being the beginning of everything. The idea of an intelligent designer facinates me as does the thinking "what caused the big bang and what was there before it" this is somthing our science upto today has not been able to prove and getting into it would also beg the question, where did the big bang happen? Of course this allows me to think perhaps god did infact create the big bang and does exist.

Science doesn't actually prove anything; it deal in probabilities. You will find proofs only in mathematics and logic. While science has been tremendously successful in explaining the natural world, it nevertheless has limitations. For example, science isn't very useful in determining if something is moral or immoral or for telling us what happened at the very edge of creation, the thin line between when nothing became everything.

lostboy wrote: »

Another thing that just entered my mind,I believe in our universe that there has to be life on other planets, no matter how small or insignifigent or intelligent or not, we simply do not know because we do not know the entirety of our universe, but this thinking sort of goes against the intelligent designer theory, or maybe he designed things we do not yet know about.

I'm not so sure there is life anywhere else. It seems that the required conditions for life are vastly improbable. Yet I don't completely discount life existing out there somewhere, and I love to imagine the possibilities that there are intelligent beings out there. However, I would that unless we find something in our own solar system the universe too vast and the distance we can stretch out too insignificant for there to be anything but a tiny chance of us ever encountering anything. There is an interesting discussion here about the possibilities of other life existing.

Still, if there is life discovered on one of the moons of Jupiter tomorrow, I'm not sure how that would put a dent in the idea of there being a Creator. We are still left asking, "why something instead of nothing?"

lostboy wrote: »

Perhaps god created this entire universe we live in,and maybe it is in a place in heaven that he decided(not heaven exactly but a place in his "realm" for want of a better word.) what was he doing before he created us as if he is an eternal being there must have been a time before this universe where he was doing "somthing" or perhaps he has created several universes and takes the same god role in each of them. What Created god?

Time, space, energy and matter all came into existence at the beginning of the universe. There was no "before" because there was no time. Does that make sense? In other words, you can't apply temporal language to God when there was no time. You would constraine God under conditions that didn't exist. Indeed, I would think that most Christians who have given this some thought would suggest that God remains outside of time even though he created it at the beginning of the universe.

We are finite beings who are utterly subject to linear time, it is the hook upon which we hang every aspect of our lives. I'm not sure that it is within our abilities to conceive of there being no time. So in short, I have absolutely no idea what God was or is doing. :pac:

lostboy wrote: »

now obviously there is nobody anywhere who could answer the above but surely if hes eternal he must have been doing somthing before us even if we dont know what.

Yes, I guess he must have been doing something. What that could be I haven't the foggiest. Still, if God can create the very fundamentals of the universe - the physical laws that we and everything else in this universe dances to - then I suppose it is infinitely far beyond our understanding. You can't explain Beethoven to a fly, after all.

PDN

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm not sure it is a sin. It might just be plain old stupidity! (No offence )

Riding a bike at speed is fun and not stupid at all . Then again, between my skill and God's protection I'm not expecting to crash.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

Riding a bike at speed is fun and not stupid at all . Then again, between my skill and God's protection I'm not expecting to crash.

I nearly had my skull crushed by the tyre of a lorry after a bit of tomfoolery on my moped. So I guess I'm a little sensitive.

Funnily enough, I think Arton Senna was of the same opinion. He thought his skill and God would protect him. I've always been undecided if God actively protects me from physical harm or not.

lostboy

have had a spill from a moped myself(and not changed me helmet) i can say I kept at it because i genuinely love doing it, although i did get a fright and took a lot more care after it and i would say it has made me a better rider,I drove away from the crashm unscathed luckily but could easily have broken bones or worse, when i got a car it just didnt give me the same feeling and i ended up doing stupid things to try and replicate what i felt biking and ultimately i ended up putting the car into a ditch but walked away telling myself that if the ditch i hit wasnt a solid bank i would have ended up in teh field where who knows what couldve happened.

But ya basically i love biking and how i ride the only things i would change is getting better gear but its not that simple,but i wouldnt stop it as it is one of the things that i get a great feeling from. kinda like senna though i suppose.That said i dont know what happened to you or the extent of "tomfoolery" but generally i stay safe and am always in control of the bike but perhaps this line of discussion again takes the thread off topic

Fanny Cradock

Well, I would say that what you do on a bike is probably of secondary importance to the overall question you raised on this thread. So in that context, I wouldn't worry about your bike too much. Better gear is definitely a good idea though!

Sam Vimes

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Maybe those who experienced a distorted version of the Message will be judged differently. I've no idea what God will do! I also have no idea why you feel so certain that a being you don't believe is compelled to act in a certain way.

Furthermore, I think you are talking rubbish when you state that conviction is without choice. Really, pull the other one! A not inconsiderable amount of energy from some atheists is given over to informing Christians that they have consciously or sub-consciously deluded themselves into a worldview that ignores the apparent overwhelming probability that God doesn't exist.

I wholeheartedly disagree with the above

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I'm not in the mood for a 5-page special. You are an atheist, you think it's all a load of rubbish and you want to point that out. I get it! Please take it to another thread if you want to discuss this further.

Fair enough

Fanny Cradock

Sam Vimes wrote: »

but I'm not allowed talk about it here

You best stop your messing.

I've already suggested that you could start another thread on this issue if you wished. You acknowledged this. Yet after you deleted your own repost a couple of days back, you now decide that the time is ripe to post snotty one-liners about how you are prevented from speaking, which is an outright distortion of what was said. This is the second verbal warning I've given you in the last month, Sam.

I've no problem with you 3 guys discussing this further, just not in this particular thread. If you want to continue this discussion I will create another thread and cut the relevant posts into it.

::Edit::

Executive decision made. New thread here.

lostboy

PDN wrote: »

but rather to try to get to know Jesus without locking yourself into a particular sect or denomination (Alpha courses, backed by all the main churches, are a great introduction to Christian faith www.alphacourse.ie). Then you can choose a church that fits with what you feel Jesus is saying to you about how you should live and worship.

This is a route i would definitely be interested in taking, that said, I dont really know how one would "get to know" Jesus.

Zombrex

lostboy wrote: »

This is a route i would definitely be interested in taking, that said, I dont really know how one would "get to know" Jesus.

I've been avoiding this thread cause really I think the OP is looking for Christian advice (I'm not a Christian)

But I think I need to comment here, from what I've seen I would be very cautious about Alpha courses.

From documentaries I've seen about them they can come across as quite manipulative. It is debatable whether they are manipulative on purpose or simply out of habit, but still you should be cautious.

By all means make up your own mind but likewise retain a good sense of sceptacism as to what is happening to you at each point, and be aware that certain feelings and atmosphere can be generated purely by naturalistic means. Just because you feel better and someone says that is because you have found the truth of Jesus does't mean you actually have.

That is all I'll say on the matter, if the OP wants to know more PM me ... carry on

kelly1

lostboy wrote: »

This is a route i would definitely be interested in taking, that said, I dont really know how one would "get to know" Jesus.

You get to know Jesus through prayer and the sacraments.

When I say prayer, I mean vocal prayer (Our Father etc) and Meditation (on the word of God). Through prayer we build a relationship with Jesus and discover our faults and failings. Jesus gives us the means to overcome our sinful ways so as to remove all barriers between us and Him.

I know protestants/evangelical deny this, but the sacraments are vitally important in getting to know Jesus. In the Eucharist we encounter Jesus in His entirety in the Blessed Sacrament and receiving Holy Communion unites us more completely with the "Body of Christ" i.e the Church. Being more united with Christ helps us to avoid sin and increases the virtues in us. The sacrament of Reconciliation is also vitally important because through it our sins are forgiven and we again receive grace to avoid sin.

Actually when we receive the sacraments, the entire Church benefits because we are part of the one Body.

If you're looking for a good introduction to prayer, I'd recomment a book by Fr. Thomas Dubay called "Prayer Primer".

http://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Primer-Igniting-Fire-Within/dp/1569553394/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265721151&sr=1-1

God bless,
Noel.