24mb broadband - what is an acceptable speed?

20goto10

We all know 24mb broadband doesn't actually mean 24mb broadband. but what is an acceptable speed? Considering it is considerably more expensive than 7mb broadband, would 10mb or 15mb be acceptable? Also, is it possible to establish what your speed would be before switching to the package?

alexlyons

I have 7mb and a reasonable speed would be IMO 5.6-7 depending on the time of day etc. Thats a maximum decrease of about 15%, so swing that over to 24mb and you get roughly 20-24mb. I definitely wouldn't be happy with 15, nevermind 10! I don't believe there is a way to test it from a particular provider. If it is coming down your phoneline you can get eircom to test the line and tell you what speed it's capable of. Also if there is anyone near you (very near you, like a few doors away) with the same provider and speed you could ask them.

Also, the contention ratio is something to watch out for, as the higher this is, the more people that share the line so the slower it may get at peak times.

20goto10

Would you be within your right to get your money back if your 24mb turned out to be max 15mb? I know its not an exact science but how much can they get away with by blaming your line and distance?

cpu.dude

20goto10 wrote: »

We all know 24mb broadband doesn't actually mean 24mb broadband. but what is an acceptable speed? Considering it is considerably more expensive than 7mb broadband, would 10mb or 15mb be acceptable? Also, is it possible to establish what your speed would be before switching to the package?

If your getting 24MB, acceptable speeds would be around 22-24MB. It's all to do with the distance from the exchange to your house, line quality, overheads and internal wiring.

To get the full 24MB, you'd want to be about 500M away from it with a good internal setup.

alexlyons

they can blame them all they want but the bottom line is they are not providing you with the service as advertised. However if they say it to you or it is in their T's&C's that if your line isn't capable or distance etc is causing a slow speed then it is your own fault, then you have no leg to stand on.

If it was me, and they didn't mention anything of the sort, and I was rarely getting between 20-24, ocasionally 15-20 and mostly 10-15, then I'd be looking for a refund, if I could find a better service. The speeds I just mentioned are no where near what they advertised and they are not upholding there end of the contract. They breach the contract, you can choose what happens, be it refund, continuing with the contract and I think there is one other option but I can't remember it.

Sponge Bob

I understand that it is a MINIMUM 12mbit product and that eircom will not sell it to you if in their estimation your line will not support 12mbits. Moderately technical discussion HERE and the best guess is that it is available in around 10% of the entire country.

As that is 50% faster than an ADSL1 max 8 mbit package and the price is less than 50% higher than 8mbits I feel that is fair.

Only about 10 people in Dublin and 3 outside Dublin will ever manage 23mbits (joke but not that much of a joke )

20goto10

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I understand that it is a MINIMUM 12mbit product

Interesting you say that. So really you need to be prepared for the fact that you could only be getting 12mb, if you're not happy with that then you should avoid it as there is no way out of the contract.

Personally I think it is false advertising and I'm amazed they have been getting away with it for so long. It should be called a 12mb - 24mb package.

cpu.dude

20goto10 wrote: »

Interesting you say that. So really you need to be prepared for the fact that you could only be getting 12mb, if you're not happy with that then you should avoid it as there is no way out of the contract.

Personally I think it is false advertising and I'm amazed they have been getting away with it for so long. It should be called a 12mb - 24mb package.

That's the thing, they are correct in their advertising because it's up to 24MB.

The product, which offers download speeds of up to 24Mb/s and upload speeds of 768kb/s, will be available to more than 550,000 wholesale and retail customers across the country.

20goto10

cpu.dude wrote: »

That's the thing, they are correct in their advertising because it's up to 24MB.

Why tell you the up to speeds and not the down to speeds? I know legally it is not false advertising but it is intentionally misleading. Why not just call it 12mb - 24mb so everyone knows what they are getting? Because it would commonly be called a 12mb package by users as thats the closest end of the scale.

we're not talking about a slight variation here, its a 50% margin. And if you're contract is in actual fact a 12mb contract, which it is if 12mb is the lowest speed they can sell under that package, then 12mb needs to be there somewhere in the package title.

Sponge Bob

Yah, it should be explicit in the T&Cs because this is their first 'up to' package. Like I said I feel minimum 12mbits is fair enough.

They really should offer 1 ( for long lines) 3 for light users but not with long lines then up to 8 and up to 24 depending on the exchange.

Cabaal

20goto10 wrote: »

Would you be within your right to get your money back if your 24mb turned out to be max 15mb?

Nope 15MB is a pretty good speed for an upto 24MB ADSL service, ADSL isn't like cable there's ALOT more variables involved.

A 15MB speed would be well within spec for the product you've choosen

ntlbell

You also have to take into consideration the capacity of where your downloading from.

what are you using to test the speed?

Cabaal

ntlbell wrote: »

You also have to take into consideration the capacity of where your downloading from.

This is correct, if a website is slow due to its own capacity issues this is far beyond your ISP's control and is not their issue.

It would be equal to complaining to Toyota if experienced a traffic jam when driving.

20goto10

Cabaal wrote: »

A 15MB speed would be well within spec for the product you've choosen

If you read the small print. My point being it shouldn't be in the small print it should be up front from the start.

I haven't ordered it yet, because I'm not so sure I'd be happy paying the extra for potential only 4mb gain and higher contention ratio. I'm just wondering if I was to go and order where exactly I stand, or maybe 12mb is a good speed and I should be happy with that.

MunsterCycling

Cabaal wrote: »

This is correct, if a website is slow due to its own capacity issues this is far beyond your ISP's control and is not their issue.

It would be equal to complaining to Toyota if experienced a traffic jam when driving.

Traffic Jams? No such thing in a Toyota monkey wagon with "fixed" accelerator, suppose you get what you pay for!

ntlbell

20goto10 wrote: »

If you read the small print. My point being it shouldn't be in the small print it should be up front from the start.

I haven't ordered it yet, because I'm not so sure I'd be happy paying the extra for potential only 4mb gain and higher contention ratio. I'm just wondering if I was to go and order where exactly I stand, or maybe 12mb is a good speed and I should be happy with that.

why not move to smart?

You won't have to deal with all this contention ratio's etc.

It still doesn't mean you will get 24mb, once the traffic leaves the ISP's network the ISP has no control over it.

20goto10

ntlbell wrote: »

why not move to smart?

You won't have to deal with all this contention ratio's etc.

It still doesn't mean you will get 24mb, once the traffic leaves the ISP's network the ISP has no control over it.

Smart is not available to me. I'm limited to Eircom and resellers. Of course it could work out just fine and I might get 20mb+ but it just feels like a bit of a con when the reality is its likely to be far from that. And a bit of a gamble too. Why should I have to gamble? Tell me what I'm getting, straight up. Can they not test the speed of my line?

ntlbell

20goto10 wrote: »

Smart is not available to me. I'm limited to Eircom and resellers. Of course it could work out just fine and I might get 20mb+ but it just feels like a bit of a con when the reality is its likely to be far from that. And a bit of a gamble too. Why should I have to gamble? Tell me what I'm getting, straight up. Can they not test the speed of my line?

You are getting access to a public network.

That access is capable of 24MB and whatever the contention ratio is.

That's the part they can control.

They can't be held responsible for the capacity of every server on the internet, or the amount of people accessing that resource.

Another car metaphor for you.

It's a bit like complaining to Porshe you can't hit X speed at peak traffic on the quays going home.

They have no control of the traffic on the roads. or the speed limits of those roads.

20goto10

ntlbell wrote: »

You are getting access to a public network.

That access is capable of 24MB and whatever the contention ratio is.

That's the part they can control.

They can't be held responsible for the capacity of every server on the internet, or the amount of people accessing that resource.

Another car metaphor for you.

It's a bit like complaining to Porshe you can't hit X speed at peak traffic on the quays going home.

They have no control of the traffic on the roads. or the speed limits of those roads.

the car metaphor is not a good one. Broadband is the road, not the car. I know it's not an exact science but they ARE responsible for the speeds I can reach. They sell their products based on speed.

slasher_65

This is what I get on a Vodafone 24mb connection.



Fairly terrible, if you ask me. 20mb away from what BT originally sold me.

ntlbell

20goto10 wrote: »

the car metaphor is not a good one. Broadband is the road, not the car. I know it's not an exact science but they ARE responsible for the speeds I can reach. They sell their products based on speed.

Broadband is not the road.

The public network is the road.

Eircom don't own that and can't control it.

I put a server online, my hosting provider gives me a 10mb upstream

You come along and try to download a file from that server.

no matter what line your on be it 24mb or 100mb I can't give you what you want.

This is not eircom's fault, they have given you "access" to the public network, someone on the public network can't provide you with 24mb they can give you 10mb and if ten people want the same file they can give you 1mb

is the penny dropping at all?

Cabaal

20goto10 wrote: »

If you read the small print. My point being it shouldn't be in the small print it should be up front from the start.

The speeds are supplied as "upto", it would be impractical to have about 24 different products such as
Broadband 1MB
-- 2MB
etc etc

Its legal as the ASAI understands the technical limitations involved in the technology being used as does Comreg,

20goto10

Sorry I'm not hearing that penny drop because I'm afriad you're missing the point. I'm saying if I'm sold a product that says the maximum speed is 24mb, what then is the benchmark that decides whether I'm being ripped off or not? I'll exaggerate just to get my point across, if I was getting 1mb are you saying they are entitled to turn around and say - well its only "up to" 24mb so tough titties.

As someone has pointed out, the small print says the minimum speed is 12mb, so if you're not getting that then you're not getting the product you're paying for. And I'm obviously not talking about connecting to slower servers. With BT the speed test was to connect to their FTP server and download an linux distro.

So basically, if you're not happy to accept 12mb then you shouldn't sign up for the product. In otherwords, as far as I'm concerned its a 12mb-24mb product as oppossed to "up to" 24mb which intentionally hides the minimum speed - which can only be to mislead people. Otherwise why not put it on the product name?

Moonbeam

What is the contention ratio that you signed up to?
I presume it is dsl?
What speed is it syncing at?

If I ordered 100mb dsl @ 48:1 contention to get 3mb would be acceptable.

If I order 12mb 1:1 getting 3 mb would not be acceptable.

20goto10

Moonbeam wrote: »

What is the contention ratio that you signed up to?
I presume it is dsl?
What speed is it syncing at?

I haven't upgraded yet. I'm put off by the whole "up to" 24mb lark and hence on here asking what speed is acceptable..

Moonbeam wrote: »

If I ordered 100mb dsl @ 48:1 contention to get 3mb would be acceptable.

If I order 12mb 1:1 getting 3 mb would not be acceptable.

Good point, which adds weight to my argument. They don't quote their contention ratios, although I'd hazard a guess it's in the small print somewhere :rolleyes: So are you saying even the minimum 12mb is not the minimum because you then have to take into account contention ratio? Or is it that 12mb already takes into account the contention ratio?

It's all as clear as mud. If you want to compare it to a car metaphor then its akin to buying a car with a sheet over it and being told you're paying for a Porsche but you might get a Lada.

ntlbell

20goto10 wrote: »

Sorry I'm not hearing that penny drop because I'm afriad you're missing the point. I'm saying if I'm sold a product that says the maximum speed is 24mb, what then is the benchmark that decides whether I'm being ripped off or not? I'll exaggerate just to get my point across, if I was getting 1mb are you saying they are entitled to turn around and say - well its only "up to" 24mb so tough titties.

As someone has pointed out, the small print says the minimum speed is 12mb, so if you're not getting that then you're not getting the product you're paying for. And I'm obviously not talking about connecting to slower servers. With BT the speed test was to connect to their FTP server and download an linux distro.

So basically, if you're not happy to accept 12mb then you shouldn't sign up for the product. In otherwords, as far as I'm concerned its a 12mb-24mb product as oppossed to "up to" 24mb which intentionally hides the minimum speed - which can only be to mislead people. Otherwise why not put it on the product name?

So BT get you to connect to a server on the inside of their own network

Which proves nothing, it proved you can get the speeds they advertise on their side of the network.

A lot of ISP's do this which is not a realistic test as your not going outside of the network your all ready on.

I have no more explanations for you.

Good luck in your search.

20goto10

ntlbell wrote: »

So BT get you to connect to a server on the inside of their own network

Which proves nothing, it proved you can get the speeds they advertise on their side of the network.

A lot of ISP's do this which is not a realistic test as your not going outside of the network your all ready on.

I have no more explanations for you.

Good luck in your search.

OK thanks I do get what you are saying but I'm more concerned with the legality (as in what is contractually binding) and the marketing aspects rather than the technical details.

anoble66

the way I see it is this. Call your ISP and tell them your interested in the up to 24mb product. They can test your line there and then and tell you the speed your likely to sync at. If this is a speed your happy with go for it, if its not dont do it....

Contention ratio's etc should only come into play during peak times, so lets say they tell you, your line will sync at 15mb. You should be able to get that 15mb or most of it the vast majority of the time during offpeak times - if you cant then they are in breach of t&c's. But you should also accept that the 15mb could drop to 0.5mb during peak times...although I doubt it would ever drop to this, realistically maybe 8-10mb.

Calibos

Posting speedtest.net results tell us nothing really. It tells you what download speed you are getting at that particular time but doesn't tell you the reason why. You could have done the test at the same time as a load of other people and its the speedtest servers that are overloaded. It could be because you did it during peak hours and its contention that is the reason (ie a rake of others sharing the 24mb pipe are online at the same time as you did the test). It tells us nothing about what your line is capable of syncing at and it is the sync speed that Eircom will guarantee. ie anything between 12mb and 24mb. Download and sync speed can be very different based on the factors outlined in my and others posts.

A better test is the link at the beginning of the other big thread where you input your line attenuation figures. This gives a rough idea of your distance from exchange and your best case scenario sync speed. Base your decision on this. My attenuation figure of 16 tells me I am within 1km of exchange and in a best case scenario my line will sync at upto 21mbits. Say you attentuation figure is 45. This means you are much further away from exchange and will sync at a maximum speed much lower than me. Say 10 or 12mbit. Only you can decide whether its worth it or not.

I actually don't see the need for anything over 7mbit at the moment for most people. I don't find myself frustrated at how long files take to download. 24mbit doesn't make the internet feel more responsive or anything like that, it just means you can probably max out the download bandwidth on any given site. The only people who can really make good use of 24mb are those sharing their bandwidth across a home network. I don't want 24mb so I can download a 'bit' of video content faster. I can already download 10 files in the space of an hour in the morning on my 7mbit line. I want 24mbit because there are 5 internet users in our house and it will mean we can all be browsing the web and/or streaming youtube and/or downloading god knows what all at the same time without affecting the others. No more watching that buffer bar lagging behind and suffering stuttering playback etc.

mattman

why would u want 24meg?

Im a good bit away from exchange (well about 2k), and get just under 7 meg downloads, and thats great.with pings of 12ms(fab!).

Why would u want a faster line? how often do u actually get a file thats huge and u get full transfer rate?

I downloaded bio shock 2, off steam yesterday. it took about 3 hours. but downloaded max speed was from 300k to 680k. Shur ant that grand? and thats on the very off chance i download a big file.

i think 7 meg is great! 24 meg? why?

pity the upload speed are not faster though. 1 meg upload would be good. but u cant get that! well not with eircom dsl.

m.

jor el

mattman wrote: »

i think 7 meg is great! 24 meg? why?

Because of contention/capacity. If you have a 24M line, and contention is 24:1, then you should always get 1M or higher, not bad, and should not be noticeable unless you're downloading a big file. If you're on 7M, with a contention of 24:1, then you could be getting 0.3M, which you would notice.

Higher speeds lead to a better experience overall, even when contention/capacity kick in, as browsing is not effected (speed is still high enough). You will never get the max speed all the time, and probably won't even get it a lot of the time, but you get a better speed (or you should anyway).

20goto10

mattman wrote: »

why would u want 24meg?

The upload is important to me as I'm running a home server. Interestingly I just found out my upload bandwidth is 672k (BT package migrated to Vodafone), so the 24mb package will only give me an extra 100k. Giving me even more doubts...

BT had the right idea giving customers 24mb at no extra cost over their 7.6mb package where available. They're a serious loss to the market imo.

anoble66

max upload speed of adsl2+ is 1MB so your never going to see a massive increase in upload speed. You can ask your provider for a low interleaving profile which can bump your upload speed to 800k even on normal adsl

lynchie

anoble66 wrote: »

max upload speed of adsl2+ is 1MB so your never going to see a massive increase in upload speed. You can ask your provider for a low interleaving profile which can bump your upload speed to 800k even on normal adsl

Eircom offer a business product over adsl2+ using the annex M profile which has a 2Mbit upload.

anoble66

cool, didnt know that. Maybe some day in the future providers will enabled annex-m for residential users.

lynchie wrote: »

Eircom offer a business product over adsl2+ using the annex M profile which has a 2Mbit upload.

20goto10

anoble66 wrote: »

cool, didnt know that. Maybe some day in the future providers will enabled annex-m for residential users.

I don't know if its the same with other ISP's but BT allowed residential customers to take up business packages. I only know because they offered it to me when I asked about getting a fixed IP. Before I knew about dyndns :-)

mattman

jor el wrote: »

Because of contention/capacity. If you have a 24M line, and contention is 24:1, then you should always get 1M or higher, not bad, and should not be noticeable unless you're downloading a big file. If you're on 7M, with a contention of 24:1, then you could be getting 0.3M, which you would notice.

Higher speeds lead to a better experience overall, even when contention/capacity kick in, as browsing is not effected (speed is still high enough). You will never get the max speed all the time, and probably won't even get it a lot of the time, but you get a better speed (or you should anyway).

shur ALLWAYS anytime i check i get full just under 7 meg speeds. ALL ways.

So upgrading for me, would be a waste of time i think. it never ever drops!

never! and i test it a few times a week for fun. I got 730k download speeds when downloading off steam the other day! so that 24:1 goes out the window for me.

as for some one saying , lower interleavin . I rang eirom today, and they said max upload on my 7 meg package is 336k or some thing like that. Unless i pay more. so thats that out the window to.

But im sure you are talking about other providers. im with eircom. and tried them all. and its simple as this..for me eircom are the by fast the fastest and by far the best pings!

here is a test just now ill do at 5:30pm . its only slightly (i mean slightly better at night!) but feck all.





that ping is not great i must say. but if u use cmd, and ping eircom.net u get 12ms ! most online games i get 30ms-55ms max.

if they bump me up for free and dont mess with my pings...ill be happy..other wise ! why bother???

m.