Finance Act amendments re VRT collection/avoidance

furtzy

New Finance Act enacted today contains some interesting points re vRT

SECTION 98, 99, 101, 104 & 105 - AMEND VRT LEGISLATION TO EXTEND THE REMIT OF THE

‘COMPETENT PERSON’ IN RELATION TO THE REGISTRATION OF VEHICLES

Section 131 of the Finance Act 1992 in being amended to provide for the empowerment of the

‘competent person’ nominated by Revenue to carry out pre-registration checks for second-hand

vehicles brought into the State to also collect the VRT and assign the registration number allocated by

Revenue; and also to provide for the payment of a small fee to the ‘competent person’ for the additional

functions being assigned.

SECTION 106 - RETURN OF MOTOR INSURANCE PARTICULARS

Section 106 inserts a new section 142A into the Finance Act 1992 which provides for the introduction

of a requirement for a return of information to the Revenue Commissioners by a vehicle insurer who

issues a policy in relation to a foreign registered vehicle for a period in excess of 42 days.

No more driving around with irish insurance on an English/NI reg

Henry Ford III

Doesn't sound unfair.

furtzy

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Doesn't sound unfair.

Nope. Also will point to the length of time the foreign vehicle has been here i.e at least from the date of commencement of irish insurance

stealthyspeeder

Given the price of Irish insurance, and the fact that Europewide cover is something like a £50 extra on UK cars (prob less on the continent), I cant see the insurance registration cutting down a lot of VRT dodgers!

furtzy

stealthyspeeder wrote: »

Given the price of Irish insurance, and the fact that Europewide cover is something like a £50 extra on UK cars (prob less on the continent), I cant see the insurance registration cutting down a lot of VRT dodgers!

It will cut down on Irish residents with foreign reg cars driving on an Irish policy which corresponds to the vast majority of VRT avoidance in this country. The gardai were calling for the government to outlaw the practice of certain irish insurers who insure foreign reg cars to irish residents so this is the governements response

mickdw

Does this mean that the revenue arent really bothered about the english plate up to 42 days?

Padraig Mor

Seems to be outsourcing of the VRT inspection too.

furtzy

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Seems to be outsourcing of the VRT inspection too.

Yeah so I would expect more thorough inspections

OldmanMondeo

So to put in plain english for, well me... From today Insurance companies will have to report all non Irish reg. cars that are insured by them.
Wonder if they will also have to tell revenue how long the car has been insured with them, i.e. more than the existing policy?

furtzy

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

So to put in plain english for, well me... From today Insurance companies will have to report all non Irish reg. cars that are insured by them.
Wonder if they will also have to tell revenue how long the car has been insured with them, i.e. more than the existing policy?

Yes from today Irish insurance companies are required by law to provide information regarding all foreign reg vehicles on their books in excess of 42 days.

I would expect that duration of cover would be one of the main thing they require for VRT/penalties calculation

OldmanMondeo

Just showed this to a guy with a NI reg'd car, driving for about 2.5years, He tought I was showing nim a joke, his face went totally pale..oh dear....

furtzy

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

Just showed this to a guy with a NI reg'd car, driving for about 2.5years, He tought I was showing nim a joke, his face went totally pale..oh dear....

lol...Guess revenue will be in contact soon...2.5 years of possible penalties....yikes

Its all in here if he wants a read

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/finance%20bill%202010/itemsfin.pdf

darragh o meara

These changes have been coming with a while and the whole inspection thing before an irish plate is given is only right, there are far too many balls of ****e driving around on uk plates that are a danger to other road users.

I mentioned in a post last year that there were changes coming and from my source which is very reliable, The company who run the NCT centres will be responsible at some stage for inspecting imports and also collection of VRT, kind of a one stop shop!! When this will happen though I dont know. Im sure the civil servants wont be too happy with the outsourcing to a private company...

Drummerboy08

Darragh O Meara wrote: »

I mentioned in a post last year

Really now?

gpjordanf1

Just curious so dont jump down my throat, I've an Irish reg car.

What if on day 41 cancel insurance with company A, Ring up company B insured again, call up company B on day 41 and cancel again, Call up Company C repeat repeat.

Alot of hassle but some people are that stubborn!

furtzy

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Just curious so dont jump down my throat, I've an Irish reg car.

What if on day 41 cancel insurance with company A, Ring up company B insured again, call up company B on day 41 and cancel again, Call up Company C repeat repeat.

Alot of hassle but some people are that stubborn!

Wouldn't be long before he was back to the original insurance company with that amount of changes
Also probably get a reduced refund if cancelling after such a short period of time. No claims bonus affected?.....loads of hassle and a very bad insurance record?

Dades

Darragh O Meara wrote: »

I mentioned in a post last year that there were changes coming and from my source which is very reliable, The company who run the NCT centres will be responsible at some stage for inspecting imports and also collection of VRT, kind of a one stop shop!!

A one-stop-shop with a little extra fee on top of your usual humping.

smash

Darragh O Meara wrote: »

I mentioned in a post last year that there were changes coming and from my source which is very reliable, The company who run the NCT centres will be responsible at some stage for inspecting imports and also collection of VRT, kind of a one stop shop!! When this will happen though I dont know. Im sure the civil servants wont be too happy with the outsourcing to a private company...

The NCT centres seem to be full of numpties so what would they know about car valuations? If they'll still be using the VRT calc, then what about cars that still aren't on the VRT calculator?

I'd agree with cars needing an NCT upon import, but what if a car comes in and fails an NCT and needs a few k to put it right, I assume you don't get a reg until the car is fixed - and then you have to pay VRT on a perfect car, rather than pay it on the import condition... scam!

The VRT system still needs a lot of work!

furtzy

steve06 wrote: »

The NCT centres seem to be full of numpties so what would they know about car valuations? If they'll still be using the VRT calc, then what about cars that still aren't on the VRT calculator?

I'd agree with cars needing an NCT upon import, but what if a car comes in and fails an NCT and needs a few k to put it right, I assume you don't get a reg until the car is fixed - and then you have to pay VRT on a perfect car, rather than pay it on the import condition... scam!

The VRT system still needs a lot of work!

I assume at the moment you pay VRT on the value of an assumed road worthy car when you go to the VRO

darragh o meara

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Really now?

Yes under my old username omeara_darragh that for some reason I cant get back into. Before anyone asks I have tried all the procedures to no avail.

Dades

steve06 wrote: »

I assume you don't get a reg until the car is fixed - and then you have to pay VRT on a perfect car, rather than pay it on the import condition... scam!

No, you pay the VRT first - even if you have to trailer the car to the VRT office. If your car is rough, that should be taken into account in assessing it's value.

On my last visit I went through all the things I was going to fix and they charged me less than my phone-quote.

You can't do your NCT until you got a plate number from the VRT office.

smash

furtzy wrote: »

I assume at the moment you pay VRT on the value of an assumed road worthy car when you go to the VRO

yes, which is also wrong. Currently if you import a damaged car, you have to pay on the basis that it's in perfect condition. There was a thread previously where someone had an argument regarding a car that was crashed repairable - when he said to the woman in the VRT office "So when I sell it, I don't have to say it's been crashed?" and she said "no, you do have to tell the buyer" to which he replied "But I'm paying VRT on a perfect car, sure you're ignoring the fact that it's been damaged"... she didn't know what to say.

I think all these things were mentioned in that case that the European union are compiling at the moment. Not about the 'it's illegal' argument, but about fairness of the process.

Dades wrote: »

On my last visit I went through all the things I was going to fix and they charged me less than my phone-quote.

Then you got away lucky because I've never had a quote reduced, even when cars needed work. I was just told to appeal.

furtzy

steve06 wrote: »

yes, which is also wrong. Currently if you import a damaged car, you have to pay on the basis that it's in perfect condition. There was a thread previously where someone had an argument regarding a car that was crashed repairable - when he said to the woman in the VRT office "So when I sell it, I don't have to say it's been crashed?" and she said "no, you do have to tell the buyer" to which he replied "But I'm paying VRT on a perfect car, sure you're ignoring the fact that it's been damaged"... she didn't know what to say.

I think all these things were mentioned in that case that the European union are compiling at the moment. Not about the 'it's illegal' argument, but about fairness of the process.


Then you got away lucky because I've never had a quote reduced, even when cars needed work. I was just told to appeal.

Maybe but at what point to you stop. The VRO office couldn't put an individual valuation on every single car they see it just wouldn't be practical.

Maybe if the system allowed for the NCT first and then pay the VRT based on their findings and only allow registration of the vehicle if it passed the NCT.

smash

furtzy wrote: »

Maybe if the system allowed for the NCT first and then pay the VRT based on their findings and only allow registration of the vehicle if it passed the NCT.

It would still only be fair to charge VRT on the pre NCT condition of the car if it fails the first time!

I'd also like to add that an NCT is only valid for 2 years from the first registration of the car, so if you bring a car in, get it VRT'd and NCT'd - you probably wont get a full NCT which is silly.

And what about cars that aren't due an NCT, will they still refuse to VRT based on it's roadworthy condition?

Redsoxfan

Slightly OT...can the minimum VRT be appealed?

darragh o meara

steve06 wrote: »

It would still only be fair to charge VRT on the pre NCT condition of the car if it fails the first time!

I'd also like to add that an NCT is only valid for 2 years from the first registration of the car, so if you bring a car in, get it VRT'd and NCT'd - you probably wont get a full NCT which is silly.

And what about cars that aren't due an NCT, will they still refuse to VRT based on it's roadworthy condition?

Im sure they have some clever people earning 150k a year who will come up with some plausible ideas!!!

In the words of Ian Dury "There aint half been some clever basta rd s"

Our man in Havana

I happens to know one person who has an UK reg jeep insured here with an Irish insurance disc in the window. He has been doing it for years. I don't know how he doesn't get caught.

furtzy

Bond-007 wrote: »

I happens to know one person who has an UK reg jeep insured here with an Irish insurance disc in the window. He has been doing it for years. I don't know how he doesn't get caught.

Hes about to be caught thanks to the new Finance Act

robbie99

Bond-007 wrote: »

I happens to know one person who has an UK reg jeep insured here with an Irish insurance disc in the window. He has been doing it for years. I don't know how he doesn't get caught.

Having the insurance disc on the window is an Irish thing and a massive giveaway. In the UK, you only need to display a motor tax disc.

Del2005

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

Just curious so dont jump down my throat, I've an Irish reg car.

What if on day 41 cancel insurance with company A, Ring up company B insured again, call up company B on day 41 and cancel again, Call up Company C repeat repeat.

Alot of hassle but some people are that stubborn!

Why go to all that trouble when the car is legit:D

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Slightly OT...can the minimum VRT be appealed?

Yes and if you have enough proof you usually get some money back.

Our man in Havana

Is this law yet?

There is nothing in any of the papers or on the news.

galwaytt

furtzy wrote: »

SECTION 98, 99, 101, 104 & 105 - AMEND VRT LEGISLATION TO EXTEND THE REMIT OF THE

‘COMPETENT PERSON’ IN RELATION TO THE REGISTRATION OF VEHICLES

Section 131 of the Finance Act 1992 in being amended to provide for the empowerment of the

‘competent person’ nominated by Revenue to carry out pre-registration checks for second-hand

vehicles brought into the State to also collect the VRT and assign the registration number allocated by

Revenue; and also to provide for the payment of a small fee to the ‘competent person’ for the additional functions being assigned.

Now this, I do not like :mad:

For a start, the 'fee' isn't stipulated - who sets it, who pays it, who regulates it ?

If you read it, the person is able to issue a reg no: now, if this is a Civil Servant - FFS -aren't we paying their wages already ? Is this another trinket for Revenue staff ?

Or, do I detect SIMI involvement here, and 'friendly' dealers being allowed to 'inspect' and apply for a reg, under their TAN numbers.......?? mmmm

Del2005

galwaytt wrote: »

Now this, I do not like :mad:

For a start, the 'fee' isn't stipulated - who sets it, who pays it, who regulates it ?

If you read it, the person is able to issue a reg no: now, if this is a Civil Servant - FFS -aren't we paying their wages already ? Is this another trinket for Revenue staff ?

Or, do I detect SIMI involvement here, and 'friendly' dealers being allowed to 'inspect' and apply for a reg, under their TAN numbers.......?? mmmm

It'll be whoever runs the NCTS. When you have to NCT all imports then it makes sense that they can do everything in the one place. It'll free up some civil servants so our taxes should go down:D

testicle

From my reading, this isn't an NCT, it's a person who goes out and sees what extras are on the car to value it.

furtzy

Bond-007 wrote: »

Is this law yet?

There is nothing in any of the papers or on the news.

Yes it part of the 2009 Finance Act. They always stick loads of little extras in it that aren't announced on budget day.

Owen

Del2005 wrote: »

It'll free up some civil servants so our taxes should go down:D

smash

testicle wrote: »

From my reading, this isn't an NCT, it's a person who goes out and sees what extras are on the car to value it.

With my dealings with the VRO, they admit they already do this with unlisted makes and models. It's a joke!

Cars&cars

eh

so let me get thiss traight, not only are we being charged an unjust (probably illegal) import tax (vrt), now said Government are bringing in a fee to have the car checked at the same time. Ummm with vrt income falling are they forgetting that other fee they are already charging called V..R..T, which can be as much as €10k per car if its a Volvo Xc90 06 for example...so what do they want now, an extra €50 euro on top?

The country is going down hill fast, I think the Government strategy must be "lets wipe out this economic boom as quick as possible until there is a complete bust, and lets grab as much tax as possible on the way down".

Im no economist, but I do know that you cant tax your way out of a recession, Ireland will just have a deeper recession than the EU. Fee this, fee that, I wish could put a fee on their mistakes. Civil servants already get paid for checking cars, and Id imagine all the vrt staff in the country could be paid many times over from the revenue collected from VRT.

This bill amendment is to move it over to NCT centres - "competent person" --- who says whos competent --- I say the Government are incompetent baboons, no offense to baboons!

Padraig Mor

And I suppose all the Revenue employees who used to check the cars will now be out of the job seeing as their services won't be required anymore.........I mean, it's not like the govt will keep borrowing money to pay them for jobs which are no longer necessary......

Gatster

So if this has passed into 'law', when is it going to be implemented?

furtzy

Gatster wrote: »

So if this has passed into 'law', when is it going to be implemented?

I suspect the insurance company aspect would be fairly immediate if they haven't already done it as it would just a matter of revenue contacting them. The vehicle inspection aspect might be slower if it means outsourcing work already done by VRO staff

Its a clever move by revenue to simply get the insurance companies to do the work for them. They couldn't let the VRT avoidance issue continue and they were under immense pressure from the Gardai to sort this out

Our man in Havana

There has been no notice in Iris Offigiúil saying it has been enacted.

Mc Love

Judging from the amount of Eastern European cars in Limerick if not the whole of the country this will be a nice little earner for the state.

And about time too

furtzy

Bond-007 wrote: »

There has been no notice in Iris Offigiúil saying it has been enacted.

Perhaps best to ask someone from the insurance companies if anyone on here works for one perhaps they could answer.

Not sure how legislation is enacted but the Finance act has been passed. Its listed as an addition to the 1992 Finance Act and other aspects of listed changes are already in place e.g VAT changes, mortgage relief changes, scrappage scheme etc

smash

Mc Love wrote: »

Judging from the amount of Eastern European cars in Limerick if not the whole of the country this will be a nice little earner for the state.

And about time too

To be honest I'd question if most of them are even insured. And I'm pretty sure a lot of them wouldn't need to pat vrt either if they've been imported by people that have moved here and had the car in their name while at home.

Cars&cars

If you are from another EU country you can be insured back in your own state - and have 6 months to be in the country, so how can any garda know if mr. x from poland has been here more than six months with x car.

Also, why should we have to pay a fee to have an import checked, its not a voluntary thing, and there is no NCT on cars up to 4 years old, so should a 2010-2007 be checked at all in this way, as no NCT applies.

The Government - I swear if they could tax you for walking out of your house, they would; and they are doing a great job of making Ireland one of the most unattractive counties to live in: um has anyone told them that the celtic tiger that made so many people wealthy, was really down to full employment caused by foreign direct investment; Im even thinking of moving to Spain and running the show from there, tax has gone mad.

furtzy

Cars&cars wrote: »

If you are from another EU country you can be insured back in your own state - and have 6 months to be in the country, so how can any garda know if mr. x from poland has been here more than six months with x car.

Also, why should we have to pay a fee to have an import checked, its not a voluntary thing, and there is no NCT on cars up to 4 years old, so should a 2010-2007 be checked at all in this way, as no NCT applies.

The Government - I swear if they could tax you for walking out of your house, they would; and they are doing a great job of making Ireland one of the most unattractive counties to live in: um has anyone told them that the celtic tiger that made so many people wealthy, was really down to full employment caused by foreign direct investment; Im even thinking of moving to Spain and running the show from there, tax has gone mad.

The level of VRT avoidance has got to a ridiculous level. I can see 3 UK/NI reg cars from the front of my house alone all driven by Irish residents. They should pay their way like the rest of us fairs fair. Anyway hopefully this will put an end to it once and for all

furtzy

FYI These are the details to be provided

106.—(1) The Finance Act 1992 is amended by inserting the
following after section 142:
‘‘142A.—(1) In this section—
‘policy of insurance’ means an approved policy of insurance
referred to in section 56(1)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1961;
25 ‘unregistered vehicle’ means a vehicle that has not been registered
in the State under section 131 of this Act or section 6 of
the Roads Act 1960;
‘vehicle insurer’ has the same meaning as in section 58 of the
Road Traffic Act 1961.
30 (2) A vehicle insurer who issues a policy of insurance to a
person for a period in excess of 42 days in relation to an unregistered
vehicle shall, within one month of the date of issue of the
policy of insurance, make a return to the Commissioners of the
following particulars—
35 (a) the name and address of the person to whom the
policy of insurance issued,
(b) the policy number,
(c) the commencement and cessation dates of the policy
of insurance,
40 (d) the registration or identification marks assigned to the
unregistered vehicle under a system for maintaining
a record of vehicles and their ownership duly established
by or on behalf of the government or other
authority of the state (other than the State) or terri45
tory concerned, or where no such registration or
identification mark has been assigned, the vehicle
identification number,
143
Amendment of
section 141
(regulations) of
Finance Act 2005.
Return of motor
insurance
particulars.
Interpretation (Part
3).
Amendment of
section 1
(interpretation) of
Principal Act.
144
(e) the country code for the state or territory concerned
referred to in paragraph (d) as set out in the International
Standard ISO 3166-1 (Codes for Representation
of Names of Countries and their Subdivision)
of the International Organisation for Standardis- 5
ation, and
(f) the make, model, type and colour (if known) of the
vehicle.
(3) Where a return is required under subsection (2), then
such return shall be made in such form as the Commissioners 10
may require, including by electronic means, as appropriate.’’.
(2) Subsection (1) applies to policies of insurance issued on or
after the date of the passing of this Act.

OldmanMondeo

furtzy wrote: »

FYI These are the details to be provided

35 (a) the name and address of the person to whom the
policy of insurance issued,
(b) the policy number,
(c) the commencement and cessation dates of the policy
of insurance,
40 (d) the registration or identification marks assigned to the
unregistered vehicle under a system for maintaining
a record of vehicles and their ownership duly established
by or on behalf of the government or other
authority of the state (other than the State) or terri45
tory concerned, or where no such registration or
identification mark has been assigned, the vehicle
identification number,

So is there a loophole for those who have had cars here more than 42 days? ie cancel their policy, start a new one and then cliam they only brought the car in and VRT it, therefore save in any fines etc?

furtzy

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

So is there a loophole for those who have had cars here more than 42 days? ie cancel their policy, start a new one and then cliam they only brought the car in and VRT it, therefore save in any fines etc?

Maybe. Cancelling insurance will play havoc with your NCB. Its not the fines the are interested in its just the VRT/road tax and getting unindentifiable cars off the road

Our man in Havana

They do be interested in collecting the substantial penalties.