Irish Course to be dropped

Lynkx

I heard from a friend that those at the education department are thinking of either dropping the Irish course or making it optional. Does anyone have any information on this?

I for one believe that the Irish course should be optional considering the amount of foreign students studying in this country.

lc2010

NEVER will the Irish course be dropped and there are always rumors about it becoming optional. I can't really see it happening for a while tbh.
Foreign students don't have to do Irish!!!

randylonghorn

There is absolutely no chance that Irish will be dropped ... why should it? We can teach Russian, but not our own language?

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing it become optional ... paradoxically, I suspect it would be good for the language! ... but I doubt if that will happen in the short-term either.

gant0

I really don't care about irish,haven't actually tried to learn irish since 2nd year an im in 6th now so i gave up on it ages ago,it's as good as it being dropped(Didn't have a single irish class all 3rd year):)......planning on never doing a tap of irish in my life after the 15th of june!!

Slugs

Dropped no, but I'd like to see it revised, it's one of the worst taught subjects in schools.

Bigdeadlydave

Never ever ever gonna be dropped, ever. Ever. Never.(although the Oral might end up being a bigger part of the test)

Hope that cleared it up!

Fad

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Never ever ever gonna be dropped, ever. Ever. Never.(although the Oral might end up being a bigger part of the test)

Will end up, next two or three years afaik.

felic

I cant really see it being dropped asuch. But it definitely needs reform on how it is taught because as it stands, its just so much hard work and marked really tough. If it were taught as more of a language and less as an english literature course, it might be a lot more manageable and realistic.

I remember doing my Irish and came out of the oral thinking I did fantastic. Our teacher even told me that the examiner giving the oral exam commented on how well i did. Went into the exam full of confidence, thought I did a great essay and then had all my quotes and so on learned off for paper two. Convinced I got an A or at least at B1. Ended up with a C1 which Im still quite bitter about.

gemxpink

Honours Irish is probably one of the hardest courses on the Leaving Certificate course but I can see it never being dropped.

I hope it isn't dropped either because even if it's "optional" there either wont be enough students to fill a class or schools wont offer it, just like religion. I honestly never want to see it being dropped, especially after all the hard work I'm putting in =/

felic

Very true gemxpink.
Irish has always been one of the core subjects of the entire education system. We start learning it at what, 4 or 5 years of age? Its currently and always has been a compulsory component of getting a place in one of the NUI prestigious universities (unless of course you are not Irish or have some other excuse to be excused from it).
Its also a part of our heritage and culture, and dropping it off the syllabus will mean its swift death and that would be a very very sad reflection on the Irish people in general and lack of respect for our own culture. Its so great to be abroad in some foreign country and to be able to start talking as Gaeilge. People look at you like you're speaking a language from some distant galaxy and people think it sounds like the elvish language from Lord of the Rings.

We should hold onto it and be proud to have it, instead of trying to obliterate it. Instead of getting rid of it, they should seriously look at changing the way its taught. If it were taught like say how we learn French, German or Spanish, it might generate a lot more interest.
Of course, being a core subject, I think it is important to go a little bit further than say French or Spanish do, but it certainly does not mean having to learn about a poets technique and write a three page essay on the poets themes and philosophical references. Ludicrous to expect LC students to come up with that. Especially when for 99.9% of them, the minute they hand up their script to paper 2, they never encounter the language again in their lives! What a waste.

I recall guys in my class saying they knew more Irish in Primary school than what they did coming out of Leaving Cert. Thats very interesting and highlights a massive failure between Primary and Secondary Transition in that one subject alone.

who the fug

Make it optional, and let the kids vote with their feet when they are 15, current situation is like a long drawn out vigil.

Optional will either kill or cure the patient


25 years since I burnt my copy of Peig, that was a good day, in fact it was a very good day

Twilightning

If you're old enough to leave school when you're 16, you should be old enough to drop a redundant language 95% of the country doesn't bother using or care about. Make it optional, end of. If I want to be patriotic later on in my life I'll learn the language in my own time.

In the mean time, breeding an even bigger dislike of the language will just continue so long as it's forced upon Irish nationals growing up in school. I don't think I've ever met one person growing up saying they enjoyed it in the slightest.

gemxpink

Twilightning wrote: »

I don't think I've ever met one person growing up saying they enjoyed it in the slightest.

I enjoy it and so do a lot of my friends. The whole "I hate Irish because it's forced on me" is just an act or an excuse for most students I believe. Although you might complain about it a lot of the time, would you rather have 2 european languages or 3? I'd rather 3, please. There are many advantages associated with learning Irish and I'd rather they be forced upon as it will stand to them.

Also, I think that learning about Irish poems and pros etc. only helps with your fluency of the language as it gives you a broader and more colourful vocabulary.

enda1

Its already optional.

You don't have to sit it and it is not a requirement to get into TCD or any foreign university.

Could be a problem if you want to take and public sector job though.

gemxpink

enda1 wrote: »

Its already optional.

You don't have to sit it and it is not a requirement to get into TCD or any foreign university.

Could be a problem if you want to take and public sector job though.

Um, no it's not.

Yes, you do. Unless you have been giving an exception (ie. you have a learning disability or haven't lived in Ireland before 1st year) you HAVE to do it. You might not go to class, you might not sit it, but you will get an NG. You may not need it to get into TCD but the chances of anyone choosing to not sit it and getting into TCD is low. You need an international language though.

who the fug

enda1 wrote: »

Could be a problem if you want to take and public sector job though.

Unless you are some foreign bint from the six counties

felic

well if Im honest, if it were optional when I did my Leaving, I wouldn't have done it. The course is just way too long. Albeit I liked it and thought I was good at it. But realistically speaking, in terms of a career, it doesn't carry a lot of weight unless you are thinking along the lines of Primary teaching or Irish Cultural studies or going for a job with RTE Nuacht.
Not even sure anymore what the Leaving papers look like, must have a look, but Paper 2 just seemed to go on forever when I was doing it. Yes, poems and prose are a nice factor, but being expected to write essays on them? How is that really testing the language skill of the student when most of it will be phrases learned off given by the teacher?

enda1

gemxpink wrote: »

Um, no it's not.

Yes, you do. Unless you have been giving an exception (ie. you have a learning disability or haven't lived in Ireland before 1st year) you HAVE to do it. You might not go to class, you might not sit it, but you will get an NG. You may not need it to get into TCD but the chances of anyone choosing to not sit it and getting into TCD is low. You need an international language though.

What's that supposed to mean?
Its exactly the people who calculate what they need, and decide to drop time wasting courses like Irish who will end up getting their first choice TCD course.

So you agree that you don't have to do it then?
A good friend of mine neither went to the class in school, nor sat the LC exam but graduated first in his TCD class.

gemxpink

enda1 wrote: »

What's that supposed to mean?
Its exactly the people who calculate what they need, and decide to drop time wasting courses like Irish who will end up getting their first choice TCD course.

So you agree that you don't have to do it then?
A good friend of mine neither went to the class in school, nor sat the LC exam but graduated first in his TCD class.

I mean that anyone with a negative attitude is going to be too busy moaning about the Irish course.

cruizer101

No way will it be dropped, even being made an option I would think is a long way off.

Some people are saying it should be taught as other european languages are i.e. not having to do Irish literature. I'm sorry but thats just stupid, you do irish for 6 years before any other languages, you are obviously meant to be at a much higher level, ideally should be fluent by Junior Cert level the same as in many European countries they are fluent in English by that age.

It shoul dthen be an option after that for those who have an interest in it, and they should cover Irish literature then, as part of the course.

In Holland students cover English literature.

The worst I heard was someone who chose to do Irish in college complain about having to do Irish prose and poetry, I mean really what level did they expect to do in college, you should be fluent at that stage so what else can you learn.

enda1

cruizer101 wrote: »

No way will it be dropped, even being made an option I would think is a long way off.

Some people are saying it should be taught as other european languages are i.e. not having to do Irish literature. I'm sorry but thats just stupid, you do irish for 6 years before any other languages, you are obviously meant to be at a much higher level, ideally should be fluent by Junior Cert level the same as in many European countries they are fluent in English by that age.

It shoul dthen be an option after that for those who have an interest in it, and they should cover Irish literature then, as part of the course.

In Holland students cover English literature.

The worst I heard was someone who chose to do Irish in college complain about having to do Irish prose and poetry, I mean really what level did they expect to do in college, you should be fluent at that stage so what else can you learn.

The key word here is meant.

In fact my Irish got steadily worse from about 13 till 18. The secondary teaching of Irish is appalling and relies on the use of Irish daily in normal situations and circumstances for the layer of prose and poetry to work.

This is not the case however in modern Ireland, so the course and the department's attitude towards it needs to change.

gemxpink

who the fug wrote: »

Unless you are some foreign bint from the six counties

Mmm I like the use of the word foreign in this context. I never understood why they aren't being taught Irish on a compulsory basis? (Maybe they are, and I'm not aware of it?)

who the fug

gemxpink wrote: »

Mmm I like the use of the word foreign in this context. I never understood why they aren't being taught Irish on a compulsory basis? (Maybe they are, and I'm not aware of it?)

If the bint in question, spoke with a manc accent she would be foreign

felic

I do see the point of the literature being on the course but do you know how much time it takes to get through ALL of whats on the course? Most of our classes were taken up with reading these stories, poems and now I see theres even a drama section! We didnt even get to cover stair na Ngaeilge!
So when you take that into account, how much time remains to go over the verbs, the grammar, the vocab... etc... thats needed to be 'fluent' enough to be able to answer the questions? Not much at all!

Bigdeadlydave

I would rather see maths optional. I find subjects such as history, geography and classics much easier.

gemxpink

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

I would rather see maths optional. I find subjects such as history, geography and classics much easier.

I'd rather they make something between pass maths and honours maths. Honours maths can be a bit tough and pass maths is too easy. No middle ground. Foundation, now thats taking the piss.

randylonghorn

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

I would rather see maths optional. I find subjects such as history, geography and classics much easier.

You may find them easier, but that's not a valid argument for making maths optional.

Making maths optional would be a terrible idea tbh, as it is we are not sending out enough people with decent maths, and especially higher maths, so colleges are more and more having to provide what are basically "remedial" maths courses in first year for students whose degree is in a subject which relies on maths a lot.

almostnever

It's a bit of a nightmare, the Irish course- you could do it for years on end and never be totally happy with it or feel fully prepared.

That said,I absolutely adore Irish. Well,apart from Paper 2. But yeah, love it. It makes me happy. And I like the relative challenge of it.

I am kinda for making it optional eventually, after Junior Cert perhaps. But...if that was the case for me, I wouldn't have chosen it and I would've missed out a lot.

I just like it and I'm glad that I do it. It's comforting for me. And it's something I have enormous pride in. It's rather woefully taught and everything but...<3!

Lynkx

I definately think the Higher Level irish course should be taught like the Ordinary Course. We go through verbs and their tenses, how they can be manipulated... basically just learning the mechanics of the language so you can weave your own sentences and phrases.

The idea of learning off phrases about the recession, health services, anti-socialism etc should be dropped. The Higher Level course should be about learning the language at a far more advanced rate, e.g., subject and object, past participle and other advanced language mechanics.

That is the way the Higher Level French course is taught and, unfortunately, I can speak better French than Irish.

IronGirl92

Aren't the department just about to bring in a new Irish course? For the LC's 2012?
Read somewhere else about someone suggesting the course be split into two different subjects. One for the literature side of things i.e. poems and pros. And the other for just the actual speaking side of things.
I actually think spitting it like that would be a great idea. I love the language, but when it comes to the poetry side of things I'm awful. I wouldn't know how to answer the questions they ask in English, nevermind Irish!

randylonghorn

IronGirl92 wrote: »

Aren't the department just about to bring in a new Irish course? For the LC's 2012?
Read somewhere else about someone suggesting the course be split into two different subjects. One for the literature side of things i.e. poems and pros. And the other for just the actual speaking side of things.
I actually think spitting it like that would be a great idea. I love the language, but when it comes to the poetry side of things I'm awful. I wouldn't know how to answer the questions they ask in English, nevermind Irish!

Aye, I've seen that suggested before, and I actually think it's a very good idea.

Nor would it be totally unheard of as a concept ... you can do an A-Level in English Language and one in English Literature, for example.

Combined course until JC, then leave Irish Language as a core subject for LC and make Irish Literature an elective.

Irish language to be examined on a 50:50 Written:Oral basis.

And some fresh thinking on the curriculum and approach to teaching, and some good in-service for teachers.

Would do wonders for the state of the language, imho.

thetonynator

randylonghorn wrote: »

Irish language to be examined on a 50:50 Written:Oral basis.

.

not quite, it will be 50% written and the other 50 divided between aural and oral ( mostly oral) from 2012

Liveit

Can you already fail Irish but still pass the leaving cert?

Lynkx

Liveit wrote: »

Can you already fail Irish but still pass the leaving cert?

Yes. Well, if you fail maths, you don't fail the entire leaving cert anymore. I'm sure it applies for Irish as well.

randylonghorn

thetonynator wrote: »

not quite, it will be 50% written and the other 50 divided between aural and oral ( mostly oral) from 2012

That was my suggestion for how an Irish language course should be assessed, not so sure it will work so well against the present combined course, but we'll see.

And yes, I was lumping oral / aural in together, probably should have been more clear.

burgess1

randylonghorn wrote: »

You may find them easier, but that's not a valid argument for making maths optional.

Making maths optional would be a terrible idea tbh, as it is we are not sending out enough people with decent maths, and especially higher maths, so colleges are more and more having to provide what are basically "remedial" maths courses in first year for students whose degree is in a subject which relies on maths a lot.

But that's no reason to make maths an entry requirement for courses that don't actually require maths.

In my Junior Cert, I got good grades in languages and an average grade at ordinary level maths. I was very concerned that in the leaving, I could have achieved honours grades in my four languages but been denied a college place if I didn't make the grade in maths. As a result, time that could have been spent improving my language skills was wasted as I tried to study maths. My maths teachers were unable to give students who were interested in maths and enjoyed the subject the attention and assistance they needed because students like myself constantly needed help.

Maybe a system similar to the French one would better suit Irish students. Rather than assuming that every student needs English, Irish, maths and a foreign language, students could decide after the Junior Cert whether the core subjects for their leaving would be scientific (including maths), linguistic/literary or social/economic. It wouldn't necessarily mean that students who chose to focus on sciences couldn't also study Irish, or that students who hadn't decided what career path they wanted to follow had to drop subjects they may actually need later on.

I don't want to dismiss Irish as an 'extinct' language. I liked studying it in school and did well in my Junior Cert but, outside school, I've never been in a situation where I've actually needed to speak it.

partyatmygaff

As much as I have a slight like for the language I have to say my Irish has gotten steadily worse ever since primary school. I can almost easily describe the technical features of Jack or any other Irish poem but I've noticed that most of the actual "useful" irish that I learned back in primary school had been lost. Back in primary school my grammar was always spot on and I had a huge vocabulary of Irish and was (According to my teacher) 2nd best in the class. Nowadays I'm lucky if the essays are right are half sensical. My grammar and vocab is appalling in irish because for the entire duration of the Junior Cert all we did was learn off useless poems like Subh Milis and the like.

I've only been doing French for 4 years and I can safely say that without a doubt my conversational French is far far better than my conversational Irish.

That said, I doubt I will ever utter another word of Irish after my Oral exam in 2011, not because I hate the language or anything but simply because it's well and truly extinct in its use. It's safe to say a few people still speak Irish, maybe even throughout their day-to-day lives. Not enough to justify making the language mandatory considering that 95% of the country forget every bit of Irish they learned the minute they hand up Paper 2.

The other 5% go into teaching the language to another generation and continuing the cycle or just using the language just for the novelty of it. That's all it is today, a novelty language.

Bigdeadlydave

randylonghorn wrote: »

You may find them easier, but that's not a valid argument for making maths optional.

Making maths optional would be a terrible idea tbh, as it is we are not sending out enough people with decent maths, and especially higher maths, so colleges are more and more having to provide what are basically "remedial" maths courses in first year for students whose degree is in a subject which relies on maths a lot.

Well the idea would be if you want to do a course which involves maths, then pick maths. People maintain "Il never use Irish again! My collage course isint an Irish one!" Well the same argument can be made against maths. Post Junior cert I think maths should be optional, or at least not a requirement for every course.

partyatmygaff

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Well the idea would be if you want to do a course which involves maths, then pick maths. People maintain "Il never use Irish again! My collage course isint an Irish one!" Well the same argument can be made against maths. Post Junior cert I think maths should be optional, or at least not a requirement for every course.

Yeah but truth be told maths is an important part of a lot of degrees. Science, business, engineering are examples of three huge categories of courses that need maths. Irish is completely and utterly pointless unless you want to teach Irish which is a pointless reason to study a language.

Maths helps you to think logically and improves your problem solving skills. I amn't having a dig at the language or anything but LC irish is just a huge timewaster for anyone doing their LC. The huge amount of time we waste studying how to analyse irish literature or speaking more realistically... How to learn off phrases that can make you look like you know how to analyse irish literature. All of that wasted time could have been spent on studying your other subjects.

randylonghorn

Bigdeadlydave wrote: »

Well the idea would be if you want to do a course which involves maths, then pick maths..... Post Junior cert I think maths should be optional, or at least not a requirement for every course.

As partyathisgaff said, though, a reasonable level of maths is necessary for so many things. Not necessarily honours maths, though we aren't producing enough people with honours maths either.

I couldn't estimate the number of times I have heard employers in the most unexpected of sectors complain that young people don't seem to have good basic maths skills any more.

I would also agree re: the relationship with logic / problem-solving skills, and that's an area that employers are constantly taking the education system to task about ... watch the papers.

partyatmygaff

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

Slugs

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

Neither I would have taken the job :P

Slugs

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Yeah but truth be told maths is an important part of a lot of degrees. Science, business, engineering are examples of three huge categories of courses that need maths. Irish is completely and utterly pointless unless you want to teach Irish which is a pointless reason to study a language.

Maths helps you to think logically and improves your problem solving skills. I amn't having a dig at the language or anything but LC irish is just a huge timewaster for anyone doing their LC. The huge amount of time we waste studying how to analyse irish literature or speaking more realistically... How to learn off phrases that can make you look like you know how to analyse irish literature. All of that wasted time could have been spent on studying your other subjects.

you could apply the same to maths. Where are you going to need to know the equation of a line, to differentiate and integrate, to work with vectors other then courses involving mechanics, engineering or science? No-where. To me I find it's just as much as a timewaster as Irish, even more so. I could justify learning irish for a nostalgiac, historical and heritage purpose, but maths, unless you're doing something involving difficult calculations, what's the point?

seanbmc

IronGirl92 wrote: »

Aren't the department just about to bring in a new Irish course? For the LC's 2012?
Read somewhere else about someone suggesting the course be split into two different subjects. One for the literature side of things i.e. poems and pros. And the other for just the actual speaking side of things.
I actually think spitting it like that would be a great idea. I love the language, but when it comes to the poetry side of things I'm awful. I wouldn't know how to answer the questions they ask in English, nevermind Irish!

It`s just typical,I`m much better at the spoken Irish side and I actually enjoy my Irish classes now because we are doing lots of oral and listening work. This stuff is much more useful for you IMO.

I dread the classes when we are doing poetry. It`s my weakest part of the course,that and the prose(or however you spell it),these classes would usually consist of us having to translate the whole poem and read translate reams of notes . People would actually enjoy the language more if there was a bigger emphasis on the spoken side.

At least they are finally changing it,just annoyed that it wasn`t for my LC.

Sorry rant over

ride-the-spiral

I think they should change the course, I would prefer they made it optional but I know that too many people would disagree with it. I absolutely abhor higher Irish, there's so much time wasted on prose and poetry. We're just told what sentences and phrases mean and have to learn them off without any understanding of their construction.

There's not enough time allocated to grammar and sentence construction, and even the way that's taught is ineffective. The way that absolutely every aspect of Irish is taught through Irish is just stupid IMO. Obviously there's something to be said for teaching it through Irish, but when learning grammar and the like, it's alot better to teach it through English so that we actually understand it. Requiring to understand the language to learn it is ridiculous, it makes it impossible to do any study without help.

I've been told that I should be getting A1s in alot of my subjects, and I'm told that I'm the best in the class at Irish but I'm still going to end up doing ordinary, just because the amount of work I would have to put in to get a B in higher could be used to get As in other subjects.

The course doesn't only breed hatred of our own language, it makes people hate the culture of the language. It's a language that only a few people in the country can get As from, those people also do better in other subjects because of the extra points, and anybody that doesn't want to do the language is accused of hating their own culture. Well, if Irish culture consists of that then I don't want to be a part of that side of it, and don't want to be forced to.

Lynkx

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

The guy with the honurs level in maths, obviously. Maths improves one's logic and way of solving problems. Irish is just a course to do because we're Irish.

Making It Bad

Lynkx wrote: »

The guy with the honurs level in maths, obviously. Maths improves one's logic and way of solving problems. Irish is just a course to do because we're Irish.

Exactly. Maths promotes an abstract way of thinking and a way of solving problems which is extremely important for everyone, no matter what you do.

Irish doesn't really offer any useful skills, especially for with things like poetry on the course. I also find it offensive that in order to greet someone in Irish I have to use the word "Dia", it's such an unnecessary religious language.

gemxpink

partyatmygaff wrote: »

In all fairness and with respect to both subjects here is a practical example.

Lets say we have two people who just passed their LC and are looking for a job to work part time during college. One of them got an A1 in Honours maths but failed Ordinary Irish and the other student got a D1 in Ordinary level maths but got an A1 in Honours irish.

Realistically speaking if all else was equal, who has the better chance of getting the part time job?

You really can't compare it like that. Irish is a language and Maths is the use of logistics.

WHirl7

IronGirl92 wrote: »

Aren't the department just about to bring in a new Irish course? For the LC's 2012?
Read somewhere else about someone suggesting the course be split into two different subjects. One for the literature side of things i.e. poems and pros. And the other for just the actual speaking side of things.
I actually think spitting it like that would be a great idea. I love the language, but when it comes to the poetry side of things I'm awful. I wouldn't know how to answer the questions they ask in English, nevermind Irish!

Well that's a noble concept, but can you honestly see more than a handful of students across the country opting for the literature course?

felic

No one would do it and it would vanish from the LC course.

randylonghorn

gemxpink wrote: »

You really can't compare it like that. Irish is a language and Maths is the use of logistics.

Did you mean logic by any chance? :P

WHirl7 wrote: »

Well that's a noble concept, but can you honestly see more than a handful of students across the country opting for the literature course?

It definitely wouldn't be the most popular subject ever, but there would certainly be more than that! Just remember that sizable numbers of students take Irish at Uni, for example.

People with good Irish, from the Gaeltacht or not; people going on to do degrees in Irish or to do primary teaching; people who just genuinely like Irish (there are a few!) ...