Bertie the champion of the world

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

Hmmm...let me see, what were their stronger plans? I note that stronger is a comparative term, so judged against FFs plans almost anything would be stronger.....but I'll have a go

2007 election manifesto

Item no. 3

3. Spend taxpayers' money well, getting maximum value and sacking any Minister who spends carelessly. That means:
- Put Minister's reputation on the line.
- Link money to performance and strategic change.
- Public project scrutiny at critical gateways.
- Every agency openly accountable.

To date FF have adopted none of the above 'policies to reduce the wastage of money resulting from extremely poor ministerial decisions

A fairly wishy-washy commitment . . and hardly evidence of a stronger plan to deal with the economic situation. .

I note none of you have addressed their radical plan to cut stamp duty and the effects it would have had if they had been succesful . .

Tommy Bateman

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Scare mongering. So the only solution is to always vote for the largest party to at all costs avoid coalitions?
Not that the current set up is anything to go by, but do you not think a few voices of differing view points might have helped avoid the current disaster?

Sure the coalition could do nothing about that international banking crisis that happened two years ago. Lenny knew what to do and now were coming out of recession, thats why were increasing in the polls again. Its a bitter pill to swallow for the opposition but Lenny and Cowen are just what we need to get us through the remains of the current emergency.

Liam Byrne

Tommy Bateman wrote: »

Sure the coalition could do nothing about that international banking crisis that happened two years ago. Lenny knew what to do and now were coming out of recession, thats why were increasing in the polls again. Its a bitter pill to swallow for the opposition but Lenny and Cowen are just what we need to get us through the remains of the current emergency.

The humour forum's thataway =>

The coalition (or FF) could've done nothing about the international banking crisis, but whoever was in power could've lessened the blow by not bull****ting about everything being fine, ignoring the many problems and corruption, and by actually delivering on the promised "soft landing".

"Lenny knew what to do" - sheesh! :rolleyes:

Throw a ****load of our money at it and pray - like all FF "solutions".

And guarantee the most corrupt and sickening organisation ever witnessed in this country without even reading the f**king report.

Where's my "ignore" button ?

Laminations

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I note none of you have addressed their radical plan to cut stamp duty and the effects it would have had if they had been succesful . .

From Enda Kenny
Fine Gael would further cut stamp duty for ordinary families trading up and down. We'd fund it by ending stamp duty loopholes for wealthy buyers, landowners and developers. We'd consolidate the various affordable housing products into one, new, improved home equity product that would bring many first time buyers into the market.

Yep you are right, FG were going to cut stamp duty. But telling half the story as you are (leaving out the bit about closing loopholes that encouraged development which resulted in the huge oversupply of housing) doesn't represent their policies fairly.


I'd just like to point out I'm not a FG member and have no affiliation to any party. There are plenty of things about the opposition parties I don't like but this thread is about Bertie. You have continued to skirt around the issues raised about the mans character and leadership and continually deflect the thread towards party politics.

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

Yep you are right, FG were going to cut stamp duty. But telling half the story as you are (leaving out the bit about closing loopholes that encouraged development which resulted in the huge oversupply of housing) doesn't represent their policies fairly.


I'd just like to point out I'm not a FG member and have no affiliation to any party. There are plenty of things about the opposition parties I don't like but this thread is about Bertie. You have continued to skirt around the issues raised about the mans character and leadership and continually deflect the thread towards party politics.

Gimme a break .. My opening opinion on this thread was a full and detailed description (complete with references) of my view of Bertie Aherne's time as taoiseach . . I spoke of his character and of my views of his leadership skills . .

. . Most of my comments since then have been in defence of comments from others around FF policies, mainly around the economic question. . Don't accuse me of trying to deflect thread when every single thread on this forum is getting derailed into a "We hate FF" discussion . .

BTW, can I ask your opinion of what impact Enda Kenny's stamp duty policy would have had on property prices ?

aidan24326

bijapos wrote: »

He lost it in my opinion the day he said at the tribunal that he won some money on the horses. I wonder myself what the inland revenue would do if every self employed person in this country claimed that unexplained monies were won at the local Paddy Power.

He seriously let himself down there. That type of answer is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

allisbleak

Laminations wrote: »

Where are the Bertie supporters? I dont want you to feel like you are walking into the lions den here, if you have facts about the man that highlight his good points and you believe his good points outweigh his bad (or can dispute his bad points) then please post.

If you're not willing to whole-heartedly defend/support him here then dont half-heartedly do it in other threads

Bertie is a liar. He should have been charged with contempt at the very least.

LostinBlanch

A lot done, a lot more to do.

Aren't we lucky that we had such a shining light to lead us through the darkness?
To show us that if you're in trouble with the law all you have to do is ring up a mate in RTE and come out with some carefully scripted crocodile tears on TV and the job is oxo.
If people are pointiing out that what you're doing to the country and the economy is dangerous and will lead to bankruptcy, all you have to do is tell them to commit suicide?
If people are asking awkward questions about why you didn't have a bank account when you were a minister for finance and then changed money into sterling and back again and back into sterling again. No wait it wasn't sterling, it was eh . . . oh yes the horses I won it on the horses. But when you're asked what horses you can't remember?
If those nasty people who don't believe you still won't go away with their questions tell them that your dear mother is dead and it had a terrible effect on you.
If they're still asking questions tell them it was all the fault of a dead solicitor. Ah shure you didn't know, you were too busy talking to Paddy the Plasterer and Billy the Bus driver who was there but didn't have anything to eat so he wasn't there officially.
To not be able to remember the answers to nasty questions at the tribunals but be able to remember enough to "write" a biography putting your side of the story.
To hope that no one remembers that you have relatives who work high up in the Revenue Commissioners. The same body that awarded you tax free exemption for your buke.
To be able to spend all those thousands of euro on make up and still look like . . . yourself.

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

The Ireland I knew in 1996 certainly wasn't buzzing. . there were lots of jobs in the IT sector but outside of that very little else . . Unemployment was about the same level that it is today . . During the period I was abroad the country took off and unemployment reached record lows . . throughout the noughties it remained at a 4/5 % level . .

What ! Every year after 1990 saw gpwth in GDP and a reduction in unemployment/ 94/95 saw GDP growth of 10% and 05/6 saw 8% growth of GDP The pharmaceutical industry was very well established in the 80's and early 90's and the construction was in good condition in the early 1990's.

hallelujajordan

anymore wrote: »

What ! Every year after 1990 saw gpwth in GDP and a reduction in unemployment/ 94/95 saw GDP growth of 10% and 05/6 saw 8% growth of GDP The pharmaceutical industry was very well established in the 80's and early 90's and the construction was in good condition in the early 1990's.

Take a look at this report . .

http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pressrelease_measuringirelandsprogress2006.htm (you need to download the linked PDF to view the raw data) . . Unemployment rates in 1996 were at the same level as they were in 2009 . .

In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.

If GDP growth is a true measure of economic success then the 70's were a boom time in Ireland . . i was only a whippersnapper but its not how I remember it. . in fact, I think my father was unemployed for much of the decade. .

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:IRL&dl=en&hl=en&q=ireland+GDP+growth

Here is another link that contradicts your data. . www.legco.gov.hk/yr04-05/english/sec/library/0405fs12e.pdf -
unemployment in Ireland grew from 1990 to 1993 and only began to recover in 93 . . mainly fuelled by the influx of FDI that came as a result of the policies of the various FF administrations in the late 80's / early 90's . .

But you know what. . this really is off-topic and matters very little to the debate. . I'm not arguing that things only picked up when Bertie Aherne was elected. I'm simply sharing my own experiences of the Ireland I left in 1996 compared to the one I returned to 5 years later.

Liam Byrne

LostinBlanch wrote: »

To not be able to remember the answers to nasty questions at the tribunals but be able to remember enough to "write" a biography putting your side of the story.

.....that you write while supposedly too injured to work, despite still being paid €3,000 a day.

To those who go on and on and on about the "boom" that Ahern created - here's a quick question :

If you build something that's supposed to last 200 feet high using nothing but Jenga bricks, should you be congratulated for achieving that, or laughed at when it falls ?

If Ahern had any cop-on or leadership ability or forward-thinking, he and FF could have set us up nicely for the foreseeable future; then - regardless of who or what created the boom - we could have been grateful.

But it's laughable the way FF try to take all the credit for the boom and then blame all that nasty depressing stuff on international factors.

What's that Aviva ad again ? "Bust to boom to bust".

stepbar

A more apt title for the thread..... 'Bertie, the wanker of the world'. Trust a Bertie thread to stir up a load of hospitable ****e.

anymore

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Take a look at this report . .

http://www.cso.ie/newsevents/pressrelease_measuringirelandsprogress2006.htm (you need to download the linked PDF to view the raw data) . . Unemployment rates in 1996 were at the same level as they were in 2009 . .

In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.

If GDP growth is a true measure of economic success then the 70's were a boom time in Ireland . . i was only a whippersnapper but its not how I remember it. . in fact, I think my father was unemployed for much of the decade. .

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&idim=country:IRL&dl=en&hl=en&q=ireland+GDP+growth

Here is another link that contradicts your data. . www.legco.gov.hk/yr04-05/english/sec/library/0405fs12e.pdf -
unemployment in Ireland grew from 1990 to 1993 and only began to recover in 93 . . mainly fuelled by the influx of FDI that came as a result of the policies of the various FF administrations in the late 80's / early 90's . .

But you know what. . this really is off-topic and matters very little to the debate. . I'm not arguing that things only picked up when Bertie Aherne was elected. I'm simply sharing my own experiences of the Ireland I left in 1996 compared to the one I returned to 5 years later.

In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.
You dont seem to realise that you have highlighted the real Ahern legacy !
Think of a wave that was coming in: Ahern's Gov's surfed that wave and brought the whole lot crashing down. He wasted the whole boom years and left us virtually bankrupt.
Curious your father was unemployed in the 70's, you had only menial job in 90's and from this you build your myth of Ahern. I started my business when i lost my job in the early 80's and worked through the early 90's which you are suggesting was a depressed period - it wasnt- I worked on fringe of construction in the 90's, businnes was great !
Maybe you leave the assessment of those years to those of us who were there and made a contribution.

FunnyStuff

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

allisbleak

FunnyStuff wrote: »

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

Doubt it.
Then the fckin eejits in the dail sent him off to swan around south america to pubilcize our boom and OUR way of doing things.

I agree with you anymore.

This country could have been a superb example of brillance were it not for the moronic gombeen parish politics and the fckin church.

hallelujajordan

anymore wrote: »

In fact, in May 2009 the rate was exactly the same as it was in May 1996 - 11.8%. . . From 1997 onwards the economy really began to pick up.
You dont seem to realise that you have highlighted the real Ahern legacy !
Think of a wave that was coming in: Ahern's Gov's surfed that wave and brought the whole lot crashing down. He wasted the whole boom years and left us virtually bankrupt.
Curious your father was unemployed in the 70's, you had only menial job in 90's and from this you build your myth of Ahern. I started my business when i lost my job in the early 80's and worked through the early 90's which you are suggesting was a depressed period - it wasnt- I worked on fringe of construction in the 90's, businnes was great !
Maybe you leave the assessment of those years to those of us who were there and made a contribution.

Why are you personalising this ? ?

On the one hand you agree with the numbers and the analysis for which I have posted several links and then in the very next sentence you contradict them again and finally you do what others have done and seek to belittle the opinions of those who don't agree with you. .because I didn't make a contribution ? ? ? ? In the same way that others have suggested that people like Wicklowwonder ought to be disentitled to a vote . . ? ?

I posted about my fathers 70's experience simply to point out the folly in your argument that rising GDP = positive economic environment yet you ignore that argument and have a rather cheap shot about how my views on Aherne have been coloured by my fathers unemployment and by my "menial job" ? ?

I have no myth of Aherne . . I have an experience of 80's and early 90's Ireland that was not an economically pleasant place to be . . One that had changed drastically by the early 90's . . changes for which I give credit to the Aherne government. I recognise that mistakes were made and that the Aherne government did not have a close enough eye on the future . . I've always recognised that but I believe that we collectively share in the responsibility for that . . . and btw, I believe those in the construction industry (do you include yourself in this ?) share an even greater burden of responsibility. . .

anymore

FunnyStuff wrote: »

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

Probably waiting for the Mahon Report !
The Uk has managed to investiagte and have the Crown prosecution Service initiate proceedings against 4 MPs in the space of 6 months !

Laminations

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I have no myth of Aherne . . I have an experience of 80's and early 90's Ireland that was not an economically pleasant place to be . . One that had changed drastically by the early 90's . . changes for which I give credit to the Aherne government.

Firstly changes are all well and good but it was a bubble, the changes were not sustainable and we are where we are. This isn't a house party its the economy, the whole point is to manage it FOR THE FUTURE. And where is the collective credit for the boom that you so quickly dole out for the bust? We were a low cost, highly educated economy, what exactly did Bertie do to create all the wealth he managed to squander? The truth is he didnt create the wealth, he just managed it, and he managed it very very badly

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I recognise that mistakes were made and that the Aherne government did not have a close enough eye on the future . . I've always recognised that but I believe that we collectively share in the responsibility for that . . . and btw, I believe those in the construction industry (do you include yourself in this ?) share an even greater burden of responsibility. . .

How gracious of you to recognise mistakes were made, but frankly its your complete downplaying of said mistakes that makes this concession hollow. Do the construction industry operate outside the jurisdiction of the state? Was there no regulation? Was it not the government who was in fact in charge of all of this? Policy, policy, policy - the government could have slowed the building of the 300,000 'surplus to requirements' houses or at least informed the population of this surplus instead of artificially creeating a supply and demand lie (where there was demand for a supposed undersupply of housing) and hence property prices became inflated and the bubble got bigger.

And people are getting personal because YOU want to give these eejits another shot at running this country!

Biggins

FunnyStuff wrote: »

I know this is off topic and sorry mod's for it... but has he gotten his tax clearance cert yet???

No, since 2002 a certificate stating that Ahern is "in negotiation" still with the Revenue Commissioners has been submitted to the Dail, to allow him to continue acting as a TD.
If it was you or I and the tax office wanted us to sort our tax out, do you think they would hang around a few years? :rolleyes:

The Standards in Public Office Commission has been asked to investigate the Taoiseach's declaration of tax compliance after the 2002 General Election.

Ahern's inability to furnish the tax clearance certificate has led to further calls for Ahern's resignation. He is also the only member of the Oireachtas not to have a tax clearance certificate On 14 January 2008 while on a visit to South Africa, Ahern accused Enda Kenny, leader of the opposition of telling a "bare-faced lie" about Ahern's tax situation. Ahern and Fianna Fáil's response has not addressed the issue, but has attacked the leaking of Ahern's tax affairs so as to attempt to enable the non-compliance issue to be ignored. Labour party leader "Mr Gilmore joined the offensive over the weekend, saying the Taoiseach was now providing at least four different versions of his personal finances and was unable to get a tax clearance certificate."

Ahern admitted to the Mahon Tribunal on 21 February 2008, for the first time, that he did not pay tax on substantial payments that he received when Minister for Finance in the 1990s.

Source

Other source points:

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/mahon-tribunal/taoiseach-admits-not-paying-tax-on-irpound10000-1295352.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ahern-refuses-to-answer-any-questions-over-tax-controversy-1265541.html
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-accuses-kenny-of-telling-a-barefaced-lie-1266388.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0119/ahernb.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article3149098.ece

...it has since emerged that Mr Ahern has put €70,000 on account with the Revenue to cover any possible liability, the final bill is actually irrelevant.
You can't be half pregnant. Mr Ahern either owes tax or he doesn't. Full stop. End of story.

Mr Ahern seems to think there is no difference between not having a tax bill and having just a small tax bill.
The reason Mr Ahern's tax status is so important is perfectly simple.
He was Minister for Finance when he received the dig-out payments. He was responsible for the collection and distribution of taxes at the time. He was responsible for tax and budgetary policy at the time. He was responsible for the Revenue Commissioners at the time.
Forget about the origin of the funding for a moment.
If Mr Ahern actually had a tax bill from the time when he was Minister for Finance, all the rest of this affair pales into insignificance.
Nobody can categorically say Mr Ahern actually does have a tax bill, but the reality is the Taoiseach can't say he doesn't.
And that's why this is so serious and Mr Ahern deserves to be questioned about it and give straight answers.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/fionnan-sheahan/straight-answers-needed-to-taxing-bertie-questions-1277938.html

johngalway

>Bertie<

oh well , okay

Just a quick note on these dig outs . I've seen them mentioned here on several Bertie threads and would just like to point out that these are alleged dig outs .

Let's take a quick look at one of them .

Ahern is asked to explain a lodgement of £24,838.49 made to his deposit account on October 11th 1994 .....

Ahern claims to the tribunal this was made up of a £16,500 (Irish) cash dig out given to him by 4 friends in a brown envelope in Fagans pub . The friends testimonies back up this claim but none of the friends or their banks can produce any documentation to back up these claims ie no records of any similar cash withdrawals exist from any of their bank accounts . Ahern claims a further £8,000 (sterling) is received as a spontaneous payment at a dinner function in Manchester by a mostly unnamed group of 20-25 individuals .

Now coincidently enough on October 11th 1994 one of the exchange rates used that day would equate this £24,838.49 lodgement to exactly £25,000 sterling and coincidently enough the branch involved would normally only buy £2-2.5k sterling on a normal day but on this day is shown to take in 12 times this figure . Celia Larkin lodges £800 in to one of her accounts on this day so the lodgements are most likely made by her .

Did the money come from an Irish dig out and a Sterling whip round as Ahern swears ? or was £25,000 sterling deposited and Ahern can't explain where it came from without damaging himself even worse than the dig out stories do ?

This is just one lodgement that the tribunal queried , Colm Keena wrote a piece in the times that claimed the Ahern lodgements under investigation totalled almost £453,000 . That's a lot of money by todays standards let alone in the early 90's .

Anyway , just wanted to point out that the dig out stories bad as they are are Aherns side of events and should not be taken as gospel.

Shea O'Meara

oh well , okay wrote: »

Anyway , just wanted to point out that the dig out stories bad as they are are Aherns side of events and should not be taken as gospel.

It's understood Bertie is a sneak thief, it's just more convenient to refer to that whole period as 'the dig outs'.

hallelujajordan

Laminations wrote: »

And people are getting personal because YOU want to give these eejits another shot at running this country!

I understood it was against the forum charter to get personal regardless of the views expressed. . .

Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I understood it was against the forum charter to get personal regardless of the views expressed. . .

Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't

A donkey with a stick of chalk between it's hoofs, scratching randomly in marked out squares on the footpath, which represent a random selection of policies being put up for debate.
How's that? Worth a shot in my view.

ascanbe

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I disliked the leadership style of Ahern, I don't trust his account of financial irregularities as discussed in another thread, and I personally distrust him as a public figure. I just don't like his politics nor his methods and am uneasy about the allegations that still pervade.

But I am not so stupid, nor are lots of other posters, to suggest that his government didn't do a whole deal of good.

I was ten years old and in Primary school when Ahern came to power. When he quit I was 22 and in my final year of University. I enjoyed all of the benefits of the years of success that Fianna Fáil did have a serious part in.

The point is that all of this never, ever negates dishonesty or corruption in political life if indeed such allegations are proven. They are totally seperate issues.

In public life, small failures or perceived failures may overshadow an entire career - often with good reason.

What age are you now?
Now that he's lead the country to brink of collapse.
'Small failures or percieved failures'. Yeah.
Anyone who categorises the years you speak of as being a 'success', is mistaken, to put it mildly.

Red_Marauder

ascanbe wrote: »

What age are you now?
Now that he's lead the country to brink of collapse.

Two years older with coming up to a year in a career that I personally don't think I would be in were it not for the celtic tiger economy; and in a far better financial position than I would have been without the Celtic Tiger.

'Small failures or percieved failures'. Yeah.

In the scheme of things, I think the few thousand Ahern is alleged to have got in corruption is a smaller issue than the huge economic growth this country experienced during Fianna Fáil's tenure. But I think it is right that any corruption blackens his name.

I am a FG voter and member btw, I just happen to think that to deny that Fianna Fail brought about, or helped bring about, an improvement in most of our personal lives and living standards, is to dig ones head in the sand.

Anyone who categorises the years you speak of as being a 'success', is mistaken, to put it mildly.

Let me guess, the Celtic Tiger didn't come knocking on your door?

Liam Byrne

Red_Marauder wrote: »

In the scheme of things, I think the few thousand Ahern is alleged to have got in corruption is a smaller issue than the huge economic growth this country experienced during Fianna Fáil's tenure. But I think it is right that any corruption blackens his name.

"a few thousand" equates to two, or three, or maybe four.

NOT 453,000 !!! :eek:

Red_Marauder wrote: »

I am a FG voter and member btw, I just happen to think that to deny that Fianna Fail brought about, or helped bring about, an improvement in most of our personal lives and living standards, is to dig ones head in the sand.

If a parent takes you on an amazing, cool holiday for a few years and then can't afford to feed you for the next 20, you've no need to be grateful. In actual fact, you'd have been better off never experiencing the highs, because then you'd never miss them.

They threw all the hard work away, and Ireland - having taken 10 years of tribunals to not yet find corruption, and only now throwing shapes to appear to investigate the banking crisis, and having committees to investigate expenses abuse and corruption, thereby putting stuff like accountability and blame on the long finger until they hope we've forgotten about it, while other countries are already on the way out and have fingered and puninsed bankers, policitians, etc who were to blame.....

Ireland is seen as a corrupt cesspit at this stage, and no-one in their right mind would invest in it, IMHO.

We need to be seen to clear out the stink and start fresh.

[QUOTE=hallelujahjordan;64433351Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't[/QUOTE]

What part of this don't you get : FF policies are ****e, and FG's or Labour's might well be just as bad.......but politics in Ireland is so damaged at this stage that a mere lack of corruption would be an improvement.

It's sickening, but it's true.

It probably doesn't suit you to recognise this, since it's an area where FG and Labour are without a doubt more qualified to be elected, having had FF pick up one of their ejected corrupt rejects.

Red_Marauder

Liam Byrne wrote: »

"a few thousand" equates to two, or three, or maybe four.
NOT 453,000 !!! :eek:

In fairness we don't know the exact figures, personally I would be surprised if he earned as much as that, but even that is about, what, two years Taoiseach's salary in old money? (Aherns time)

If a parent takes you on an amazing, cool holiday for a few years and then can't afford to feed you for the next 20, you've no need to be grateful.

I don't think that's a relatively accurate analogy in fairness. The celtic tiger has been around for a conservative 10 years durinmg which enormous improvements were made in living standards - not all thanks to Fianna Fáil by any means, but certainly spurred on by Fianna Fáil.

By the way, about your analogy - I'm not saying that the current downturn os okay 'because of' the upturn. What I'm saying is that my parents - and now myself - are better off than in 1996, or 1986, and in fact all of my parents lives as far as I can see.
Everybody benefitted from the celtic tiger as far as I can see, and we all continue to enjoy benefits. Maybe not to the same degree - but the benefits are still around.

In actual fact, you'd have been better off never experiencing the highs,because then you'd never miss them.

That is to suggest all living standards are back pre 1996 standards? I strongly disagree.

Ireland is seen as a corrupt cesspit at this stage, and no-one in their right mind would invest in it, IMHO.

Thankfully, we are hearing of more and more investors who disagree with you.

hallelujajordan

Liam Byrne wrote: »

What part of this don't you get : FF policies are ****e, and FG's or Labour's might well be just as bad.......but politics in Ireland is so damaged at this stage that a mere lack of corruption would be an improvement.

I might be able to agree with you except your analysis is predicated on the assumption that FG / Labour would be just as bad or to put it another way, Just as Good. .

I happen to believe that they would not be just as good. I believe they would be crippled by their ideological differences, by the ego's of their two leaders (who have been unable to act in partnership while in opposition) and by the complete lack of leadership ability in the man who would become Taoiseach in said partnership . . a lack of leadership that was highlighted again this week with the George Lee fiasco and the ridiculous "I'm going to be myself" commentary. . .

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I understood it was against the forum charter to get personal regardless of the views expressed. . .

Besides which, this comment would only make sense if those who were getting personal wanted to put some alternative government with real alternative policies in place. . but we know they don't

People ask hard questions about ahern and thus his party to which hey presto lets try and call into question the alternatives.

Another classsic ff little trick.
It is getting tiresome at this stage.
Are you guys getting training tips or something ?
I have noticed a lot more ff activity on forums of late.
I suppose the George Lee affair was good and drew a lot of the sleveens out.

Also something I notice is that ff would rather destroy the image of all politicans as a whole rather than take any blame for themselves.
Why else would they eventually stoop to the line "sure they would be as bad if they were in power for so long". ?

Sad thing is that they have succeeded and the image of all politicans is now so bad that a celebrity economics pundit, who is now believed by many to be our economic and financial saviour, is being lauded for quiting politics and the polticians are being blamed for his inability to hack it.

Red_Marauder wrote: »

...

In the scheme of things, I think the few thousand Ahern is alleged to have got in corruption is a smaller issue than the huge economic growth this country experienced during Fianna Fáil's tenure. But I think it is right that any corruption blackens his name.

I am a FG voter and member btw, I just happen to think that to deny that Fianna Fail brought about, or helped bring about, an improvement in most of our personal lives and living standards, is to dig ones head in the sand.

Let me guess, the Celtic Tiger didn't come knocking on your door?

PS was your account hacked because I find you excusing bertie ?

It wasn't just a few thousand, the sums involved (icluding house fix up amounts) were far greater than average industrial wages of the time.
And it is nopt a small issue, he was finance minister at the time and within a few years would be the leader of our country.

The celtic tiger didn't stop at some doors and in fact the way the bubble economy developed it robbed some people of a decent future.

They brought about an improvement in people's lives that they will be paying for throughout their lives.
To me that is not progress. :rolleyes: