Spare a thought for Paddy

ei.sdraob

yes the title of this thread is in contrast to this bad joke of thread here


why dont we spare a thought for all the 13,300 people who lost a job last month (how many of them were from public sector again btw?)

A HUGE surge in unemployment and redundancies are outlined in startling new figures published today.

They show 13,300 more joined the dole queues last month -- pushing the total to 436,900. And redundancies soared, according to the latest report, with 6,699 losing their jobs in January.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/economic-downturn-blow-for-lenihan-as-jobless-total-soars-2045119.html


the papers dont print the stories of the thousands of people above, instead we get trash like this


so please spare a taught for Paddy, or Pat or whatever the names of these people are who are still loosing jobs

people who can not hold the country ransom in order to continue in their safe and overpaid employment

people who get "demoralized" by a p45 handed to them, not by a frigging pension levy

:mad:

The_Honeybadger

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yes the title of this thread is in contrast to this bad joke of thread here


why dont we spare a taught for all the 13,300 people who lost a job last month (how many of them were from public sector again btw?)


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/economic-downturn-blow-for-lenihan-as-jobless-total-soars-2045119.html


the papers dont print the stories of the thousands of people above, instead we get trash like this


so please spare a taught for Paddy, or Pat or whatever the names of these people are who are still loosing jobs

people who can not hold the country ransom in order to continue in their safe and overpaid employment

people who get "demoralized" by a p45 handed to them, not by a frigging pension levy

:mad:

It does rather put Barrys problem into perspective doesn't it, quality of life destroyed my a**e.

gurramok

My other half is one of those 436,900 on 10k a year so forgive me if my sympathies are more towards Paddy rather than Barry.

Barry wrote:

It is unfair, unjust and irresponsible to destroy my quality of life in two fell swoops of pay reductions in 10 months.
This Government targeting of public sector pay has not only turned my quality of life on its head,.

Yeh try it on the dole Barry. Thank your lucky stars you have a guaranteed job earning 53k a year and a nice pension in the first place.

ardmacha

Thank your lucky stars you have a guaranteed job earning 53k a year and a nice pension in the first place.

Barry studied to acquire the appropriate skills and applied for the job, nothing lucky about it.

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

Barry studied to acquire the appropriate skills and applied for the job, nothing lucky about it.

can Barry be replaced by any of the 436,900 unemployed people with more skills and education

no? thought so

The_Honeybadger

ardmacha wrote: »

Barry studied to acquire the appropriate skills and applied for the job, nothing lucky about it.

I wonder how many of the 400k+ on the dole studied at third level, that'd be an interesting statistic. He is not going to get much sympathy writing into the papers complaining about his quality of life on a wage like that, if other posters calculations can be trusted he is on 50k plus. His employer can't sack him I consider that to be pretty lucky, as be in no doubt the Government would lay off scores of PS if they thought for a second that they could get away with it.

Lawros Tache

How about i offer you a job?

Free accomodation plus free healthcare included.

Stay at home as many hours as you like, you can even take care of your own children and still come out with take home pay of over €200 per week...

Apply at your local Social Welfare office...

ei.sdraob

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Apply at your local Social Welfare office...

and of course the welfare "job" Paddy gets would not come close to the 50K a year job that Barry is moaning about

Lawros Tache

ei.sdraob wrote: »

and of course the welfare "job" Paddy gets would not come close to the 50K a year job that Barry is moaning about

hours are much better though...

ei.sdraob

Lawros Tache wrote: »

hours are much better though...

maybe Barry should move to this new job and be replaced by any of the 430K "Paddie's" who would prefer to be in his position

gurramok

ardmacha wrote: »

Barry studied to acquire the appropriate skills and applied for the job, nothing lucky about it.

Lucky stars in that he has a protected job with a protected pension, him moaning about struggling on a high wage is rubbing salt into the wounds of Paddy.

Lawros Tache

Maybe they should have applied years ago just like Barry, he knew it wasn't as lucrative as his private sector counterparts at the time but settled for that in favour of long term job security.

ei.sdraob

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Maybe they should have applied years ago just like Barry, he knew it wasn't as lucrative as his private sector counterparts at the time but settled for that in favour of long term job security.

maybe we can all work in the public sector (worked out great in USSR) :rolleyes:

tho where will the money to pay the PS an welfare come from then?

Stark

ei.sdraob wrote: »

the papers dont print the stories of the thousands of people above, instead we get trash like this

Whinge whinge whinge. He should get a job elsewhere if he's not happy with what the one he has.

Lawros Tache

ei.sdraob wrote: »

maybe we can all work in the public sector (worked out great in USSR) :rolleyes:

tho where will the money to pay the PS an welfare come from then?

Still trotting out the old favourites I see...

unfortunately we cant all work in the Public service, but you're welcome to apply just like the rest of us are when the positions are advertised. For all the vilification of the Public sector i'd be willing to bet €206 per week that the applications will be way up.

The money will come from the same place that "Paddy's" new wage will come from.

Lawros Tache

Stark wrote: »

Whinge whinge whinge. He should get a job elsewhere if he's not happy with what the one he has.

Just like those on the dole are perfectly entitled to get themselves a job elsewhere as Irish people have done for generations.

The_Honeybadger

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Maybe they should have applied years ago just like Barry, he knew it wasn't as lucrative as his private sector counterparts at the time but settled for that in favour of long term job security.

Average wages across sector, 1998-2009


Remind me, just when was that again?

MysticalRain

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Still trotting out the old favourites I see...

unfortunately we cant all work in the Public service, but you're welcome to apply just like the rest of us are when the positions are advertised. For all the vilification of the Public sector i'd be willing to bet €206 per week that the applications will be way up.

The money will come from the same place that "Paddy's" new wage will come from.

You could say the same thing about people aspiring to be bankers.

Lawros Tache

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

so all the construction workers currently on the dole were earning under €40,000 were they??

please...

Stark

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Still trotting out the old favourites I see...

unfortunately we cant all work in the Public service, but you're welcome to apply just like the rest of us are when the positions are advertised. For all the vilification of the Public sector i'd be willing to bet €206 per week that the applications will be way up.

Can't be that horrible working there then if people are still going to be willing to apply. In spite of the cuts, people still have good well paying jobs. They're not exactly starving and walking to work in bare feet.

Lawros Tache

Stark wrote: »

Can't be that horrible working there then if people are still going to be willing to apply. In spite of the cuts, people still have good well paying jobs. They're not exactly starving and walking to work in bare feet.

so is it the height of the mountain or the lowness of the surrounding ground?

oh you mean i can't generalise hysterically against one side or the other?

i apologise

i thought that was what this forum was for...

The_Honeybadger

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

so all the construction workers currently on the dole were earning under €40,000 were they??

please...

So are you calling the CSO data lies? Of course it couldn't be as accurate as the PS's anecdotal evidence, what a guy once told them in a pub or whatever. It is all we have to go on if you have data contrary to this please be my guest.

MysticalRain

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Just like those on the dole are perfectly entitled to get themselves a job elsewhere as Irish people have done for generations.

Wasn't it Brian Lenihan's father that said "Sure we can't all live on this little island". It makes me wonder if there will be anybody left in the future to pay taxes to fund the country's public service.

gurramok

Lawros Tache wrote: »

The money will come from the same place that "Paddy's" new wage will come from.

Yes, money does indeed grow on trees. Thats the militant PS line that's been trotted out.

Paddy needs the money more so than Barry as Paddy earns 10k scraping by on a low quailty of lifestyle, not earning 53k+ on a high quality of lifestyle.

ei.sdraob

Lawros Tache wrote: »

The money will come from the same place that "Paddy's" new wage will come from.

external borrowing another 25+ billion :rolleyes:

oh boy will things get nasty once the chickens come home to roost

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Lies, damned lies and statistics...
.

last i checked CSO are part of the public sector...

murphaph

Lawros Tache wrote: »

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

so all the construction workers currently on the dole were earning under €40,000 were they??

please...

Clearly you don't understand what an average is!

That's the same as me telling you that you earn 200k because I read about a few secrataries general on that sort of loot!

Taxipete29

mickeyk wrote: »

Average wages across sector, 1998-2009


Remind me, just when was that again?

I love when people trot out graphs based on average wages.

If a Doctor earns 200k and a Nurse earns 50k, their average wage is 125k. Now is that representative of what either of them earn?? NO.....

Riskymove

mickeyk wrote: »

So are you calling the CSO data lies? Of course it couldn't be as accurate as the PS's anecdotal evidence, what a guy once told them in a pub or whatever. It is all we have to go on if you have data contrary to this please be my guest.

can you provide a link to the definition of the "Private (ex agri)"

thanks

The_Honeybadger

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I love when people trot out graphs based on average wages.

If a Doctor earns 200k and a Nurse earns 50k, their average wage is 125k. Now is that representative of what either of them earn?? NO.....

What do you propose it should be based on?

The_Honeybadger

Riskymove wrote: »

can you provide a link to the definition of the "Private (ex agri)"

thanks

Are you serious? It is the people working in the private sector excluding agriculture, average farm income is 16k would you like to include that as well?

ei.sdraob

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I love when people trot out graphs based on average wages.

If a Doctor earns 200k and a Nurse earns 50k, their average wage is 125k. Now is that representative of what either of them earn?? NO.....

if your not willing to believe CSO stats


fine how about IMPACT?

by their admission two-thirds earn more than 40K (industrial wage is 37K)




what say you now?

Taxipete29

mickeyk wrote: »

What do you propose it should be based on?

I am merely pointing out that averages across industries do not paint a clear picture.

Riskymove

mickeyk wrote: »

Are you serious? It is the people working in the private sector excluding agriculture, average farm income is 16k would you like to include that as well?

I meant the actual definition by the CSO and how they worked it out

They do not produce an overall definitve Private sector average afaik so am interested in how they produced that figure

The_Honeybadger

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I am merely pointing out that averages across industries do not paint a clear picture.

Well please paint us a clear picture then, but until you can do that stop shooting down data that doesn't suit your argument. The example you gave of a person on 50k and 200k is based on two people, of course the average will be skewed, private sector earnings across the entire sector will give a much better balance of the various earnings. Unless you can provide more accurate data what is your problem?

The_Honeybadger

Riskymove wrote: »

I meant the actual definition by the CSO and how they worked it out

They do not produce an overall definitve Private sector average afaik so am interested in how they produced that figure

Not sure how they worked it out will try have a look later

Taxipete29

mickeyk wrote: »

Well please paint us a clear picture then, but until you can do that stop shooting down data that doesn't suit your argument. The example you gave of a person on 50k and 200k is based on two people, of course the average will be skewed, private sector earnings across the entire sector will give a much better balance of the various earnings. Unless you can provide more accurate data what is your problem?

The average will always be skewed when you have people at the top level who earn huge multiples of those below them as is the case in most sectors.

I dont have a problem or argument. I was merely pointing out that your figures dont tell the whole story. I am commenting on what you posted. You seem a bit touchy

The_Honeybadger

Taxipete29 wrote: »

The average will always be skewed when you have people at the top level who earn huge multiples of those below them as is the case in most sectors.

I dont have a problem or argument. I was merely pointing out that your figures dont tell the whole story. I am commenting on what you posted. You seem a bit touchy

Apologies that post was a bit aggressive. It just annoys me when PS (not referring to you don't know what you do) say the likes of "ye were all laughing at us during the boom", and when data which blows that out of the water is produced they just blank it and say it doesn't tell the full story. Is it not the case though that this phenomenon exists in both sectors, some incomes are multiples of those at the bottom, how can we paint a clear picture if not by averages?

Nidot

mickeyk wrote: »

Apologies that post was a bit aggressive. It just annoys me when PS (not referring to you don't know what you do) say the likes of "ye were all laughing at us during the boom", and when data which blows that out of the water is produced they just blank it and say it doesn't tell the full story. Is it not the case though that this phenomenon exists in both sectors, some incomes are multiples of those at the bottom, how can we paint a clear picture if not by averages?

Top post mickeyk, its good to point out that both sectors encounter the same problem when averages are bandied about.

MaceFace

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I love when people trot out graphs based on average wages.

If a Doctor earns 200k and a Nurse earns 50k, their average wage is 125k. Now is that representative of what either of them earn?? NO.....

I don't love it when people try and confuse things.

When we hear people have had an average 7% cut in pay, this isn't clear either. One person has had a 5% cut and the other maybe 8%.

ardmacha

On this chart it is clear that semi State bodies have the highest wages, and the likes of the ESB have received increases, rather than decreases, in the last year. Yet the witchhunt is on for the public sector, with little or no mention of semi States. Mob dynamics are difficult to understand.

The_Honeybadger

ardmacha wrote: »

On this chart it is clear that semi State bodies have the highest wages, and the likes of the ESB have received increases, rather than decreases, in the last year. Yet the witchhunt is on for the public sector, with little or no mention of semi States. Mob dynamics are difficult to understand.

Absolutely true, esb funds itself and even makes the gov a profit though, if we were supporting them it may well be a different story. But what you say is definately the case.

Taxipete29

MaceFace wrote: »

I don't love it when people try and confuse things.

When we hear people have had an average 7% cut in pay, this isn't clear either. One person has had a 5% cut and the other maybe 8%.

You must be easily confused plus not very good at maths. The figures you posted come to a 6.5% average cut.

Stark

The 7% figure comes from unequal numbers of people receiving 5% and 8% cuts (weighted average) and also people receiving different cuts to different portions of their pay, similar to the way you're taxed differently on different portions of your income.

BrownianMotion

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You must be easily confused plus not very good at maths. The figures you posted come to a 6.5% average cut.

Scenario 1
Person 1 on 32000 gets cut 5%.
Person 2 on 64000 gets cut 8%.

Total wages: 96000
Total wages cut from both: 6720 (32000*0.05 + 64000*0.08)
Total average cut: (6720/96000)*100 = 7%

Scenario 2
Person 1 on 32000 gets cut 5%.
Person 2 on 64000 gets cut 8%.

Average cut: (5% + 8%)/2 = 6.5%


This is just my little example of how pointless these arguments are. The figures can be twisted to say whatever the vested interest wants them to say.

changes

ei.sdraob wrote: »

can Barry be replaced by any of the 436,900 unemployed people with more skills and education

no? thought so

At any givin time during the boom 150K were unemployed, some people just don't want to work.

About 280K might be interested in replacing barry though.

MaceFace

Taxipete29 wrote: »

You must be easily confused plus not very good at maths. The figures you posted come to a 6.5% average cut.

Well done you..... demonstrated my point exactly.

Even without having to bring the graded reductions into play, take an example of where one person earns 90k and has a 8% pay cut and the other earns 30k and has a 5% cut. That equals an average of 7.25% cut.

ZYX

Just a couple of points. First I am not a PS worker and do feel many are moaning way too much over relatively minor cuts but:

There are not 436,000 unemployed. It is about 270,000 (13% of workforce). This represents an increase of about 150,000 in last few years. Why are people assuming all these are in private sector. I think everyone accepts many contract workers in public service have now joined the ranks of unemployed. I have no idea how many have. Perhaps someone has a figure. "If" more than 30,000 of these were public sector that means public sector have suffered more from job losses than private sector (as a % of total workers). .

While many in private sector have taken pay cuts, 100% of public sector have. 100% of private sector have not taken cuts.

I accept most public sector workers have permanent jobs and, as I said I believe many whinge too much but the idea that as a sector the private sector is taking all the pain is rubbish

ei.sdraob

ZYX wrote: »

Just a couple of points. First I am not a PS worker and do feel many are moaning way too much over relatively minor cuts but:

There are not 436,000 unemployed. It is about 270,000 (13% of workforce). This represents an increase of about 150,000 in last few years. Why are people assuming all these are in private sector. I think everyone accepts many contract workers in public service have now joined the ranks of unemployed. I have no idea how many have. Perhaps someone has a figure. "If" more than 30,000 of these were public sector that means public sector have suffered more from job losses than private sector (as a % of total workers). .

While many in private sector have taken pay cuts, 100% of public sector have. 100% of private sector have not taken cuts.

I accept most public sector workers have permanent jobs and, as I said I believe many whinge too much but the idea that as a sector the private sector is taking all the pain is rubbish

as per http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/current/psempearn.pdf

A total of 360,900 people were employed in the Public Sector in September 2009
compared to 369,100 in September 2008, a decrease of 8,200.

please keep in mind that includes people who retired

so the public sector shrank by 2.2% in one year

once again including retirees



theres no way in hell they can claim that they suffered anywhere near the scale of private sector shrinkage

Guell72

My heart bleeds for Paddy.
If he was any good he would easily get a job. Unless hes in a dead end job because he was too lazy to develop himself while he was employed.
Retrain, make yourself employable Paddy. Dont cry in my milk.

The dole is great. I was made redundant early last year. Got nearly €40,000 redundancy.
I didnt even bother looking for a job for 3 months. I just drew the nice handy dole and played games and bummed around for 3 months. A well earned and well paid rest.

Within 2 weeks of getting up off my arse, after deciding 3 months of leisure should come to an end i got a job, out of several offers. And for more money than i earned before.
This is because i always made sure i was employable.

There is a sad, pathetic, begrudging attitude prevalent in Ireland now. Grow up people. We all made our career choices. Just because yours was a bad one, dont get mad at others who made good choices.

people are
No longer concerned about keeping up with the Jones.
They are more concerned about making sure the Jones dont have what they themselves dont have.

ei.sdraob

Guell72 wrote: »

people are
No longer concerned about keeping up with the Jones.
They are more concerned about making sure the Jones dont have what they themselves dont have.

its not as simple as that

how would you feel if the Jones took a mortgage in your name and in your children's name and you and your children have to pay for their mortgage

the taxpayer doest have to pay for private sector workers but we do have to pay for the public sector workers, by continuing to borrow, the taxpayer and the taxpayers children will be paying for the "Jones's" :mad:

is it a bit too much to ask for a good service at good prices?

Guell72

ei.sdraob wrote: »

its not as simple as that

how would you feel if the Jones took a mortgage in your name and in your children's name and you and your children have to pay for their mortgage

the taxpayer doest have to pay for private sector workers but we do have to pay for the public sector workers, by continuing to borrow, the taxpayer and the taxpayers children will be paying for the "Jones's" :mad:

is it a bit too much to ask for a good service at good prices?

Its pretty simple alright.
Worry about your own job prospects. Make sure you are useful to an employer and you will never be out of a job. Get Paddy and his mates working and paying tax again.
Im a private sector worker and the tax payer paid part of my redundancy. And €900 a month for 3 months. Would you like it back? The tax payers pay paddys' and his mates dole too.
Time to grow up and stop crying about people who made different career choices than you did.