Sanity maybe? GLUAS rubbish rejected

Chris_5339762

Buses better: report rejects tram system for Galway

February 2, 2010 - 7:00am

Study: new bus system would treble public transport use


The final report of the Public Transport Feasibility Study has come firmly down on the side of an upgraded bus network, effectively ruling out a tram system for the city as too expensive.


The introduction of an improved bus system, coupled with city centre traffic management restrictions as well as park and ride facilities, would nearly treble the levels of public transport use to 14% of road users by 2020.


The report – which has taken a year to complete and was presented to Galway’s City Council’s special policy committee yesterday – found that a light rail transit (LRT) system would cost nearly €600m or 80% more to build than a bus rapid transit network (BRT), would take ten years to start and cause significant disruption to services during construction and beyond.


According to the consultants MVA charged with carrying out the study on behalf of the Galway City Council, it would cost €699m to set up a light rail system, as opposed to €115m to get a ‘bendy bus’ network off the ground, with a further €89m required to enhance the current bus system.
A cost benefit analysis found that the BRT represented medium value for money, with a benefit to cost ratio of 1.755, whereas the LRT was found to deliver poor economic return, with a benefit to cost ration of 0.535.
“It is therefore evident that either much higher levels of population and employment growth, over and above those currently forecast, would be required to generate additional benefits to make the LRT medium value for money. Alternatively, the cost of the LRT option needs to be significantly reduced for the same benefit,” according to the report.

A proposal for a Light Touch LRT – or the GLUAS proposal – which supporters have claimed would cost a maximum €250m to set up – was dismissed by the consultants as a “very high risk approach” to fixing our congestion woes.


The backers of GLUAS claim the new technology rail installations would involve less excavation of the road surface, going down just 300mm, which would result in less road disruption during installation. The trams would weigh just 22 tons, compared to over 30 tons that the more common trams weigh.


For more, read this week's Connacht Sentinel.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/11010-buses-better-report-rejects-tram-system-galway


Good. Finally a group with a bit of clout is coming forward and saying that this GLUAS nonsense is poor value for money. Bendi-buses are not a good idea either though. What we need, and I've said it many times before, is the bypass built, Bishop O Donnell road dualled, extensive pedestrianisations and bus-only roads (which cant happen without the bypass), the removal of Bus Eireann as an entity and the creation of Galway Bus using frequencies of 10 minute intervals, a removal of Eyre Square as the superdestination for all buses and for all of the Red buses to be sunk into a bog to the west of the city.

Robbo

Good to see some common sense being used about town, Gluas really was like some sick parody of the Simpson's monorail episode.

kevcos

Robbo wrote: »

Good to see some common sense being used about town, Gluas really was like some sick parody of the Simpson's monorail episode.

Damn, I guess now we'll never be mentioned in the same breath as such towns as Brockway and North Haverbrook:)

MayoForSam

Yup, hopefully the council will listen to these guys, wake up and smell the coffee. No way is any government (especially with the current state of the public finances) going to sanction a pie-in-the-sky tram system that might look nice and be environmentally friendly but would be empty most of the time. Buses that can actually drive into estates especially around Knocknacarra will do a much better job of offering commuters a car alternative without having to walk a mile to the nearest GLUAS stop.

But again as previously mentioned, the bypass must be built to take the pressure off the main routes around Galway before the bus lanes can be put in. About time some serious decisions and commitments were made.

MayoForSam

MayoForSam wrote: »

Buses that can actually drive into estates especially around Knocknacarra will do a much better job of offering commuters a car alternative without having to walk a mile to the nearest GLUAS stop.

Buses driving into every estate isn't efficient. It means infrequent busses and irregular routes.

Regular busses on main arteries are better

leninbenjamin

The problem with the buses is that you have to clear the roads for them to be effective. For all the complaining we do about them, the uptake of the buses in Galway is pathetic and it's very hard to see this improved upon as easily as it's made out in that summary.

Bendy buses are as a ridiculous idea as the GLUAS too. Galways roads can't handle them and there isn't the uptake to justify them. They might be filled up once or twice on the morning runs but the existing buses are already empty 90% if the day on my own route.

For public transport to become efficient in Galway, cars have to be kicked off the road first. It's going to cost time and money whatever decision is made, roads will have to be widened to accommodate bus lanes, certain roads will have to be closed off to traffic etc.

ScumLord

There's really very little point in allowing cars into the centre of Galway, there's little to no parking to get to the shops. The streets are too narrow to allow a proper bus service on top of car access and the middle of Galway is easier to get around on foot.

What Galway could really do with is a ring road and parking just outside the centre. It's a real pain having to drive through Galway to get to the other side of it.

HardyEustace

All valid points about a bus service that will work and be used.

You only have to look at the number 9 bus.

Goes every 15 minutes until 7 and then every 30 minutes.

Used to meander around every estate across the East or so it seemed.

Now you're in town in less than 15 minutes on a good day.

Bus Corridor takes you a lot of the way into town.

The bus service went from never being used to being constantly packed.

Is brilliant around christmas time, on a Saturday or Sunday when you want to go into town but couldn't be bothered with the hassle and/or expense of parking and going out in town. Bus is always packed at the weekend and at weekend nights. It's contributed a huge amount of quality to area.

Asmodean

The no.9 is definitely a brilliant example. I use it almost every other day and 90% of the time it is full. I have even gotten the last service on Sunday nights a couple of times (leaving the square at half eleven) and even then it has been almost full.

HardyEustace

Asmodean wrote: »

The no.9 is definitely a brilliant example. I use it almost every other day and 90% of the time it is full. I have even gotten the last service on Sunday nights a couple of times (leaving the square at half eleven) and even then it has been almost full.

Yes it shows - provide a rubbish service and no-one will use it, provide a good service at a reasonable price and people will flock to it.

Dunjohn

I'm in Knocknacarra and I do be fairly jealous of all those Parkmore busses that pass me by while I'm waiting for the #2....

I thought the GLUAS was a cute but implausable idea when I first saw on the Green Party election posters. Then I was amazed when an actual plan was produced. It's nonsense. If all the busses could be like the Parkmore service then the system would be fine, so I'd rather see the funding go there.

No mention of this in the Galway Indo that just plopped through my door, btw.

TheCosmicFrog

I live in Newcastle and the bus service is a f*cking joke. If you miss a bus, the next one might not be for another 90 minutes. 40 minutes at the earliest. Seriously?!

KevR

HardyEustace wrote: »

You only have to look at the number 9 bus.

Is that the bus to Parkmore? If so, the stops along the road up through Doughiska are way too close together in my opinion. All the unnecessary stopping is just adding to journey time. One or two of the stops should be removed, would only add a minute or two of extra walking for most people. It's a good service apart from that.

toiletduck

Yeah the GLUAS was ridiculous. Now is the time for an underground for Galway. It's the only solution to our traffic. Well that or actual timetables for the red bus.

Zzippy

KevR wrote: »

Is that the bus to Parkmore? If so, the stops along the road up through Doughiska are way too close together in my opinion. All the unnecessary stopping is just adding to journey time. One or two of the stops should be removed, would only add a minute or two of extra walking for most people. It's a good service apart from that.

Even with all those stops it still runs on time and the journey time is only 15-20 minutes most days. The frequency is fine, every 15 minutes during the day gets a good load on most buses. Take out those stops you consider unnecessary and all that happens is the bus waits longer at Parkmore before coming back again - thats not efficient. You will also have more people waiting at each stop if you remove some, thats not ideal in the climate we have - bus shelters are only so big...
To be honest, I use the 9 a lot and its the best bus service in the city, we shouldn't be trying to change it, we should be trying to emulate it on other routes.

unJustMary

KevR wrote: »

Is that the bus to Parkmore? If so, the stops along the road up through Doughiska are way too close together in my opinion. All the unnecessary stopping is just adding to journey time. One or two of the stops should be removed, would only add a minute or two of extra walking for most people. It's a good service apart from that.

I think they snuck an extra couple in during the road-fix-up.

(Possibly the folks from Fearinn Ri don't like using the stop outside the halting site. I've never had problems there myself, but some may expect 'em.)

A friend was telling me that the drivers like being assigned to the No 9 too: the frequency means that passengers don't be giving out about the bus being late.

I'd change the timetable slightly myself: make it every 10 minutes from 7:30 - 9am and 4-6pm. But that's the only change I'd make.

I suspect that not enough capital (= not enough actual buses or bus-lanes) is all that's stopping them doing the same for Knocknacarra. I have no proof, just a guess ...

KevR

Zzippy wrote: »

Even with all those stops it still runs on time and the journey time is only 15-20 minutes most days. The frequency is fine, every 15 minutes during the day gets a good load on most buses. Take out those stops you consider unnecessary and all that happens is the bus waits longer at Parkmore before coming back again - thats not efficient. You will also have more people waiting at each stop if you remove some, thats not ideal in the climate we have - bus shelters are only so big...
To be honest, I use the 9 a lot and its the best bus service in the city, we shouldn't be trying to change it, we should be trying to emulate it on other routes.

Fair point.

Wouldn't it be great to see ticket machines (like in Manchester or London) at all stops, or even just the busier ones, on the number 9 route. It would make boarding the bus a lot faster because people could buy their tickets while they wait for the bus.
I think if they got rid of one or two of the very closely spaced stops (I think some of the ones along Doughiska don't have shelters anyway?) and had ticket machines at some or all stops, they could possibly run buses at a 12 minute frequency without the need for any extra buses.

Also, aren't they supposed to be piloting those electronic information signs on a couple of bus routes at some stage? Surely the No 9 would be an ideal candidate..

unJustMary

KevR wrote: »

Also, aren't they supposed to be piloting those electronic information signs on a couple of bus routes at some stage? Surely the No 9 would be an ideal candidate..

I think that's just Dublin: Galway are still at the stage of piloting bus-shelters :rolleyes:

(And it really, really bugs me that the stop out at Parkmore didn't get one: there can easily be 20+ people standing there after work!)

HardyEustace

KevR wrote: »

Is that the bus to Parkmore? If so, the stops along the road up through Doughiska are way too close together in my opinion. All the unnecessary stopping is just adding to journey time. One or two of the stops should be removed, would only add a minute or two of extra walking for most people. It's a good service apart from that.

Do you actually take that bus?

Each stop is more or less outside an estate, the estates are very big and some of the houses are a healthy five to ten minutes walk to the estate entrance.

You don't want to make it even harder for people to take bus. I think the model they have which is a clustered row of bus stops and then a fast stretch into town is a very good.

Webbs

There needs to be a unified transport system including buses and trains from out as far as Clarinbridge, Athenry, Claregalway etc into the city on major arteries serving places of work.
The costs have to be reasonable (cheap!) to get people out of their cars and there should be an equivalent of the London Oyster card that can be used on any means of transport and any company at all times of the day.
For example if you are coming from the likes of Oranmore or Athenry and there are more than one bus company and a train service serving the route you should be able to get on any of them with your monthly/annual ticket

Zzippy

KevR wrote: »

Fair point.

Wouldn't it be great to see ticket machines (like in Manchester or London) at all stops, or even just the busier ones, on the number 9 route. It would make boarding the bus a lot faster because people could buy their tickets while they wait for the bus.
I think if they got rid of one or two of the very closely spaced stops (I think some of the ones along Doughiska don't have shelters anyway?) and had ticket machines at some or all stops, they could possibly run buses at a 12 minute frequency without the need for any extra buses.

Also, aren't they supposed to be piloting those electronic information signs on a couple of bus routes at some stage? Surely the No 9 would be an ideal candidate..

Ticket machines would be a great idea, I'd certainly use them. We'll have to agree to disagree on the bus stops, as other posters have said they are necessarily close because of the large size of some estates. I don't think a 12 minute frequency is either necessary or at times feasible, the 15 minute freq ensures good loads, which is good for efficiency, and allows some leeway for heavy traffic - 12 minutes you lose that leeway and any heavy traffic at all could impact on the timetable.

KevR

HardyEustace wrote: »

Do you actually take that bus?

Each stop is more or less outside an estate, the estates are very big and some of the houses are a healthy five to ten minutes walk to the estate entrance.

You don't want to make it even harder for people to take bus. I think the model they have which is a clustered row of bus stops and then a fast stretch into town is a very good.

I've taken it a few times although I don't take it on a regular basis.

I think part of the problem with buses in Galway (and Ireland in general) is that there is too much of a focus on trying to drop people off at their door step rather than focusing on trying to provide a faster, more frequent service and having people walk a small bit further.

I don't think the No 9 is the worst culprit for having stops which are too close together, there are routes which are a lot worse. Whenever I have taken the bus to Parkmore, it has always struck me that the stops at Doughiska are a bit close together.

HardyEustace

KevR wrote: »

I've taken it a few times although I don't take it on a regular basis.

I think part of the problem with buses in Galway (and Ireland in general) is that there is too much of a focus on trying to drop people off at their door step rather than focusing on trying to provide a faster, more frequent service and having people walk a small bit further.

I don't think the No 9 is the worst culprit for having stops which are too close together, there are routes which are a lot worse. Whenever I have taken the bus to Parkmore, it has always struck me that the stops at Doughiska are a bit close together.

Ok, didn't mean to be snide by asking but at the same time until you've used the service on a regular basis I think it's rather a thoughtless problem.

The whole thing about a transport system is that the easier it is to use, the more people will use it. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to drop people to their doors as closely as possible (within reason). If you're not using public transport, then you're more than likely in a car.

In Galway, it rains A LOT. The less time you spend in the rain using public transport, the more likely you are to use it. I don't see anything wrong with the ethos of trying to accomodate as many people as possible.

cianof

The proposed solution is much worse than the Gluas idea. (Not sure the 700million figure is correct either)

Main problem = too many cars in city.

Galway needs a bypass 1st. (remove people traveling to other side of the city)

Then they can start looking at improving the public transport system.

Bus system in its current form is not good enough. No bus shelters for most stops. No accurate time tables.

I'd like to see Real Time Passenger Information (RTPI)

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

Agreed with everyone about the No. 9 service, definately the best in Galway by far. It benefits from a great bus lane the whole way in as far as Moneenageisha, as well as a large young population out around Doughiska, many of whom don't/can't/won't drive. Knocknacarra is the other side of the coin, slightly older demographic with more motorists (residents, don't bite me, I know not everyone is a middle aged accountant there!!), a lot of this is aggravated by a fairly infrequent and slow bus service. The capital simply isn't there to upgrade all the roads on the west side of the city in towards town.

The outer bypass is crazily overdue, this would obviously relieve the city of a lot of traffic that has to go through it, therefore providing less congstion and maybe a quicker bus service.

GLUAS was complete pie in the sky. Galway is nowhere near populated enough to justify it.

unJustMary

cianof wrote: »

Main problem = too many cars in city.

Galway needs a bypass 1st. (remove people traveling to other side of the city)
....

I'd like to see Real Time Passenger Information (RTPI)

Ahh, but what comes first? Getting people out of their cars, or getting more buses?

I agree that a frequent Knocknacarra service wouldn't but quite as huge a success as Doughiska has been - because people there have had 10-20 years to adapt their lifestyles around needing to drive. But the population is large enough that it would work over time.

Everyone would like to see RTPI. But I'd put it into the category of "nice-to-have once we've done the other stuff first". The amount spent on technology and infrastructure to get it in place is large, and the return would only come after all the pieces were in place. Other things (eg bus shelters, updated timetables, bus-lanes, more frequent services) can be done bit-by-bit, and would give a return almost immediately.

HardyEustace

cianof wrote: »

The proposed solution is much worse than the Gluas idea. (Not sure the 700million figure is correct either)

Main problem = too many cars in city.

Galway needs a bypass 1st. (remove people traveling to other side of the city)

Then they can start looking at improving the public transport system.

Bus system in its current form is not good enough. No bus shelters for most stops. No accurate time tables.

I'd like to see Real Time Passenger Information (RTPI)

Have to agree with previous poster. Yes, absolutely a nice to have.

However if you've a good bus service that you know will be every 15 minutes, it negates the need for it somewhat.

Just thought I'd mention that the no.9 is a great service.. Use it twice a day and it's only every couple of weeks that it's noticably late.

Greaney

Regarding the no. 9 and the bus stops on the Doughiska road. If your a Mum, with no car, taking two or three little ones to school on a rainy morning... well I rest my case. The stops are sooo convenient you can't not take it!!

Secondly, before that service became so frequent it was appaling and my son was constantly left standing on the side of the road in the rain going to school. I had to drive him 2-3 mornings a week after he walked home (in the rain, no bus shelters). I wrote letters and lobbied along with folk in my estate. Nothing happened for over a year and I asked a bus driver why. He told me that Bus Eireann had applied to have more times on the No. 9 route 8 months previous and had heard nothing back. The drivers had been perfectly aware of the shortage and had been communicating that to the powers that be.

Over half a year after that again, we saw more frequent buses. Bus Eireann have to apply for licences to put extra buses on Routes along with private companies, and the licencing Authority take an age to approve them, over a year sometimes:(.

unJustMary

Greaney wrote: »

and the licencing Authority take an age to approve them, over a year sometimes:(.

The folks in the Commuting and Transport forum mutter about it taking up to 4 years in some cases. I have no knowledge of how correct that is.

BE are treated a bit differently from the private companies: can't remember the exact details, but it's something like they get a permit vs the privates who get a licence. Even so, it's a long process ... even more argument for why it should be started when a new estate is being planned, instead of after the people have moved in!

dafunk

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Bendy buses are as a ridiculous idea as the GLUAS too. Galways roads can't handle them and there isn't the uptake to justify them. They might be filled up once or twice on the morning runs but the existing buses are already empty 90% if the day on my own route.

Not true. A light rail system would totally work in Galway and in Europe alone there are five cities with a catchment population either smaller or the same size as Galway where a light rail system works and is cost effective.

ScumLord

unJustMary wrote: »

Ahh, but what comes first? Getting people out of their cars, or getting more buses?

HardyEustace wrote: »

Have to agree with previous poster. Yes, absolutely a nice to have.

However if you've a good bus service that you know will be every 15 minutes, it negates the need for it somewhat.

The bus service is never going to improve as long as the centre of Galway is jamed with cars. If I want to visit friends of mine out past westside I have to get caught up with traffic traying to get around town other parts of the city I have to drive through the middle of the city. You have to take people like that out of the centre to free up room or the buses will just get caught up in it. As well as that it would be easier to convince people to drop their cars at the ring road and uses buses into town after that.

padraig71

Those real-time information panels on bus shelters are not all they are cracked up to be. I have experience of them in London and Dublin. It can be really annoying when a bus you're expecting gets down to 2 mins or so and then simply disappears off the list, or gets stuck at 'due' and doesn't show up. Worse than useless when they get your hopes up only to dash them.

However, not to have bus shelters at all, particularly given the amount of rain we get here, is simply ridiculous.

unJustMary

dafunk wrote: »

Not true. A light rail system would totally work in Galway and in Europe alone there are five cities with a catchment population either smaller or the same size as Galway where a light rail system works and is cost effective.

Please name them, and give the land mass.

Or at least a reference to where we can read about 'em.

I do hope they've got a river in the middle of the city.

unJustMary

ScumLord wrote: »

The bus service is never going to improve as long as the centre of Galway is jamed with cars. If I want to visit friends of mine out past westside I have to get caught up with traffic traying to get around town other parts of the city I have to drive through the middle of the city. You have to take people like that out of the centre to free up room or the buses will just get caught up in it. As well as that it would be easier to convince people to drop their cars at the ring road and uses buses into town after that.

And that's exactly my point: they're not going to drop out of their cars unless the bus is better in some way. And if you take the traffic away (temporarily) by building more roads then taking the bus won't be better.

If there's a frequent bus service, then people will catch the bus instead of their cars, even if the bus needs to go through the same mess of traffic that their cars would have to.

IMHO a frequent service means enough buses in the system for a departure every 10 minutes in peak time after allowing for the longer-than-normal journey times (if a normal there-and-back trip takes 1 hour, schedule 1.5 hrs at peak and don't expect a given bus to be back to do it's next run before then). It also means buses equipped with communication technology (2-way radios of whatever), and a dispatcher who gives them instructions about what to do when unexpected things mess up the timetable and re-directs other buses to make up services that can't be run because people are caught up.



To me, it looks like Bothar na dTreabh is the ring road - except that someone forgot to tell the planners to stop approving building outside of it, and they forgot the link to avoid the Headford Rd. If they build another ring-road, won't we just have the same problem in 20-50 years time?

dafunk

unJustMary wrote: »

Please name them, and give the land mass.

Or at least a reference to where we can read about 'em.

I do hope they've got a river in the middle of the city.

I'll get back to you on that, I have a 300 page feasibility report somewhere in my office, it's just a matter of locating it. Made total sense to me when I read it a few years ago.