Record number of CAO applications / likely effect on points

From RTE News -> link

A record number of applications for third level places have been received by the CAO this year.

The 10% rise in applications - to over 71,000 - means that there will be almost two candidates for every college and university place.

The Institute of Guidance Counsellors has attributed the increase to the unemployment crisis, with students opting for third level, instead of apprenticeships or a highly competitive workplace.
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Unprecedented numbers of mature students are also applying for places.

(emphasis added)

So, looks like competition will be fierce this year...so much for 'education is the best place to be during a recession', eh?

bnt

According to the Irish Times report, there are 15,000 mature applicants (age 23+). I'm waiting for another rant against mature students like the one the one they printed a couple of weeks ago. :pac:

bnt

bnt wrote: »

According to the Irish Times report, there are 15,000 mature applicants (age 23+). I'm waiting for another rant against mature students like the one the one they printed a couple of weeks ago. :pac:

Wow, I appreciate it was meant to be somewhat ironic, but everyone should have a right to an education if they want it. It's going to be really tough points wise this year (why oh why do I have to want to do Medicine?) but I wouldn't begrudge people for wanting to better themselves academically and for wanting better prospects.

Making It Bad

This may sound a bit blunt but let's face it, points for already high point courses like medicine aren't going to go up. The 10% rise is due to people who would have before not bothered with furthering their education when times were good. They will be mostly made up of people with <300 points who will be applying to do further certificates, level 6 kinda courses and so on.

The kind of people who apply for things like medicine would still be applying for it even if there was no recession. Points for courses <350 I can see rising but only those courses.

Oh, and ****ing mature students! I kid, I kid

cruizer101

Applications are up this year by about 10%, means points will probably be higher. Apparently there is two students for every college place.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0202/cao.html

Making It Bad

Making It Bad wrote: »

This may sound a bit blunt but let's face it, points for already high point courses like medicine aren't going to go up. The 10% rise is due to people who would have before not bothered with furthering their education when times were good. They will be mostly made up of people with <300 points who will be applying to do further certificates, level 6 kinda courses and so on.

The kind of people who apply for things like medicine would still be applying for it even if there was no recession. Points for courses <350 I can see rising but only those courses.

Oh, and ****ing mature students! I kid, I kid

That's what I was thinking, especially with the HPAT it seems like it'd be pretty difficult for points to rise for Med drastically. That makes me feel a bit better, I don't suddenly need to get 600 points. Phew.

**Timbuk2**

Making It Bad wrote: »

This may sound a bit blunt but let's face it, points for already high point courses like medicine aren't going to go up. The 10% rise is due to people who would have before not bothered with furthering their education when times were good. They will be mostly made up of people with <300 points who will be applying to do further certificates, level 6 kinda courses and so on.

The kind of people who apply for things like medicine would still be applying for it even if there was no recession. Points for courses <350 I can see rising but only those courses.

Oh, and ****ing mature students! I kid, I kid

That's actually an extremely good point! I never considered that! It makes me feel better

gemxpink

I think the places should be split up for mature and LC; obviously mature should be only a minority % because lets face it, they didn't take the opportunity first time round so why should they get first choice just because times are hard and they want to do it now!?

Really can't see huge rises in high point courses either, I expect everything under 450 to stay the same really =/

randylonghorn

Making It Bad wrote: »

This may sound a bit blunt but let's face it, points for already high point courses like medicine aren't going to go up. The 10% rise is due to people who would have before not bothered with furthering their education when times were good.

...

The kind of people who apply for things like medicine would still be applying for it even if there was no recession.

These points I agree with.

Making It Bad wrote: »

They will be mostly made up of people with <300 points who will be applying to do further certificates, level 6 kinda courses and so on.

Not necessarily. Yes, there will be a lot of people in this category, but there will also be people who will be aiming pretty high, who would during the boom have opted to work for a couple of years before heading to college, perhaps for financial reasons or simply to get a better idea of what they wanted to actually do, or who would have opted to take a gap year and head to Oz / elsewhere.

Making It Bad wrote: »

Points for courses <350 I can see rising but only those courses.

As I said, I agree with you re: medicine / the very top point courses, but I think you are setting the cap too low here.

Making It Bad

randylonghorn wrote: »

Not necessarily. Yes, there will be a lot of people in this category, but there will also be people who will be aiming pretty high, who would during the boom have opted to work for a couple of years before heading to college, perhaps for financial reasons or simply to get a better idea of what they wanted to actually do, or who would have opted to take a gap year and head to Oz / elsewhere.

I don't think these kind of people make up the majority, maybe a small % but not really worth taking into too much consideration, perhaps I could be wrong though.

randylonghorn wrote: »

As I said, I agree with you re: medicine / the very top point courses, but I think you are setting the cap too low here.

Well I think the <350 point courses will see the biggest rise, with minor rises of courses <450. Can't really see it affecting courses >450, but again it's hard to tell.

pathway33

If there's nearly two candidates for every place they should just pair everyone off and have a fight night.

Conor108

Science in UCD. 385 last year. I'd expect/hope that it gonna go to AT MOST 425. Is that too ridiculously low of an estimate??

pathway33

Lawliet wrote: »

These out of work wank3rs better not be going for science!

Just said on TV3 news that arts and science will be most affected by the increase in numbers.

Reillyman

gemxpink wrote: »

I think the places should be split up for mature and LC; obviously mature should be only a minority % because lets face it, they didn't take the opportunity first time round so why should they get first choice just because times are hard and they want to do it now!?

What if they couldn't afford to go to college after leaving school, even if they had a great leaving cert. I hate this middle-class attitude of short sightedness. Grow up and look at the world around you...

felic

expected at least 75,000 applicants this year!
Thats manic! Points across the board will rocket. And its too late now for them to change the entry system. But my God... Minister for Education do something. This will put even more pressure on kids and everyone in general. If they are allowing mature and primary degree holders back in to do second degrees, then at least make the system fair and maybe allocate a certain percentage of the places to such applicants, the majority of places being offered to school leavers.

pathway33

the colleges said they may have to put a cap on the number of places. was that a cap on the number offered to 'matures' or a cap on everything?

pathway33

and i thought there was a cap already. isn't that why we have the points system? so they must be talking about limiting the 'mature' entry

Ddemo

well im thinking of business in ul and its 385 @ the moment and ill prob onky get 410ish would it rise that high?

felic

Well I think its very difficult to make any predictions at this early stage in terms of points. But we can be sure, that increased numbers in applicants, and low numbers of university places, points will rise.
The very high points course Id imagine will remain around the same levels they have been for the last few years. They never show a major drop or rise. What makes them so high is the numbers of people wanting to get those courses and also the number of people who repeat the leaving from the year before. The majority of repeats who try for courses like Veterinary, Pharmacy, Medicine, Dentistry, all pretty much get their 600 points cos they have a year of full time revision, and if the person got say 560 the first time... you know?

I hate this HPAT assessment thing. I love the idea of making things fair and that was the intention, but if you look at it, its still a points race there. So for anyone going for Medicine, you need to secure your 550 points to be in with a chance. The HPAT is a tough exam and you cant predict what way those results will go. But ud need to be hitting the 730 mark this year for all of the medicine courses.

As for the people going on about mature students... the amount of mature places on courses is pre allocated and is not part of the CAO. they always have been there and always will be. These applicants have a separate application process but still need to apply via the CAO. SO those increased applicants for that category wont affect the points.

The problem is the recession and people who had degrees and working in whatever fields now find themselves idle and with no secure prospects of jobs, have decided to rethink their careers.
These applicants will already have their Leaving Cert results from the years they did them. Those results are impossible to factor into this because they could be anything.
But I reckon courses in Architecture, Engineering, Construction, IT, Finance will all either stay the same or drop.
Science and Arts will rise.

Good luck to everyone. And LC students.. work your butts off between now and June

cheesydoodles

really depends on its popularity. it's mostly the arts courses that are always rising so i'm screwed lol. University of limerick? that's 4th on my list

Ddemo

cheesydoodles wrote: »

really depends on its popularity. it's mostly the arts courses that are always rising so i'm screwed lol. University of limerick? that's 4th on my list

was thinking of maynooth to do finance and accounting but acommodation is hard come by seemlingly???:eek:

cheesydoodles

Ddemo wrote: »

was thinking of maynooth to do finance and accounting but acommodation is hard come by seemlingly???:eek:

oh i gave up on maynooth months ago. i really wanted to go there cos they're the only university in the country that do anthropology points are gettin heaps higher there every year. it'd be cheaper livin at home and gettin the train. you could probably apply for an education grant and get free train fare

Ddemo

cheesydoodles wrote: »

oh i gave up on maynooth months ago. i really wanted to go there cos they're the only university in the country that do anthropology points are gettin heaps higher there every year. it'd be cheaper livin at home and gettin the train. you could probably apply for an education grant and get free train fare

really would like to go der and get accomodation but sure thats wishful thinking. where u thinking of going?

I thought there was already a number of places kept back for mature students, because they're not entering based on school leaving exams...?

Ddemo

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought there was already a number of places kept back for mature students, because they're not entering based on school leaving exams...?

well im a leaving cert student and feels its unfair that more mature places are been reserved in certain courses???:(:( less chance of students getting there courses if the boarderline as regard points:mad:

justaday

any idea on points for orts in ucd? 400?

Ddemo

Ddemo wrote: »

well im a leaving cert student and feels its unfair that more mature places are been reserved in certain courses???:(:( less chance of students getting there courses if the boarderline as regard points:mad:

No, what I mean is that LC students aren't competing with mature students. There is a small number of places allocated for mature students, which are separate for the places for school leavers (ie the places printed in prospectuses). At least that's what I think.

Besides, mature students have just as much a right to higher education as school leavers. It's much much harder to get into college as a mature student anyway, you're assessed on previous work/education and there's interviews etc.

randylonghorn

Ddemo wrote: »

well im a leaving cert student and feels its unfair that more mature places are been reserved in certain courses???:(:( less chance of students getting there courses if the boarderline as regard points:mad:

Why?

These are people who have worked for the last 5 / 10 / more years during the boom, and paid taxes to support the education system and the Free Fees Initiative and so on.

Many couldn't afford to go to college when they were your age (they probably can't really afford it now either, but it's more useful than sitting on the dole!)

It's not their fault that the bankers, developers and govt. have landed us in this mess.

Admittedly, it's not yours either, or the others doing LC this year, but the reality is that things are tighter for everyone at the moment, in many different ways.

Blame the people who got us into this, not your neighbours down the road who are simply trying to equip themselves with additional skills / qualifications in the hope of being able to find another job / support their families.

Ddemo

Deleted User wrote: »

No, what I mean is that LC students aren't competing with mature students. There is a small number of places allocated for mature students, which are separate for the places for school leavers (ie the places printed in prospectuses). At least that's what I think.

Besides, mature students have just as much a right to higher education as school leavers. It's much much harder to get into college as a mature student anyway, you're assessed on previous work/education and there's interviews etc.

i agree totally but im just saying as regards the extra pressure been put on LC students with regards the amount of CAO applicants. Every % will count this year more so than recent years with college places been faught for more so now than ever

Four-Percent

I hear all this talk of two applicants for every place, but how many applicants were there per place last year? It's not like there are double the numbers applying this year...

Ddemo

Four-Percent wrote: »

I hear all this talk of two applicants for every place, but how many applicants were there per place last year? It's not like there are double the numbers applying this year...

they said on rte 4500 more applicants this year?

Ddemo

Ddemo wrote: »

i agree totally but im just saying as regards the extra pressure been put on LC students with regards the amount of CAO applicants. Every % will count this year more so than recent years with college places been faught for more so now than ever

Yes, but the pressure isn't coming from the mature students, it's coming from the increase in those sitting the leaving, and the increase in those sitting the leaving applying to third level education who would previously have looked for work instead.

This was bound to happen, less jobs means more in education. Better to be doing something than sitting around on the dole.

cork*girl

I think this is fairly scary! Seeming people are still going to be applying up until May :eek: Arts UCC went up 35 points last year I think.. what will it be this year!!? Not even thinking about my 1st choice which is primary teaching..

This may be a bit harsh to say but I feel that is kinda unfair that people who already had their chance to apply to CAO when they were in 6th year are now taking places when it is OUR turn..

pathway33

justaday wrote: »

any idea on points for orts in ucd? 400?

arts ....sorry orts in ucd has over 1,200 places i think and rarely moves due to the number of places. Even with the increase in demand I'd say 380 tops.

It's the courses with 15 or 20 places that can fluctuate wildly

randylonghorn

Ddemo wrote: »

they said on rte 4500 more applicants this year?

And it would have jumped by a significant number last year as well ... can't remember exact figure tbh.

It's that combined increase over the two years which is going to affect CAO points for you lot really, not any issues re: mature students.

The other issue which *may* impact is college budgets being cut by govt. ... more in that it will deter them from increasing places on courses to meet increased demand and ease the pressure, I doubt there will be actual decreases in places available except possibly in say construction-related courses where the numbers simply aren't needed any more.

Gael23

Ddemo wrote: »

well im thinking of business in ul and its 385 @ the moment and ill prob onky get 410ish would it rise that high?

See you there!
Im going for the one with french which was 380 last year. I think you will be ok, Im expecting it to be 400 or so.

cork*girl

cork*girl wrote: »

I think this is fairly scary! Seeming people are still going to be applying up until May :eek: Arts UCC went up 35 points last year I think.. what will it be this year!!? Not even thinking about my 1st choice which is primary teaching..

This may be a bit harsh to say but I feel that is kinda unfair that people who already had their chance to apply to CAO when they were in 6th year are now taking places when it is OUR turn..

There are no 'turns'; everyone should have the right to access higher education. What if someone wanted to take a gap year, or didn't get into their chosen course? Why should they be begrudged for trying to access education? It's not their fault the economy is the way it is.

randylonghorn

cork*girl wrote: »

This may be a bit harsh to say but I feel that is kinda unfair that people who already had their chance to apply to CAO when they were in 6th year are now taking places when it is OUR turn..

I don't mean to sound harsh, but who told you life was fair?

Do you think the people who worked their ass off and paid taxes for the last 5 / 10 / 15 years think it's fair that they are now on the dole with big debts because the unholy trinity of banks / developers / govt. lost the run of themselves, made huge profits, and forgot to plan for next year?

cork*girl wrote: »

45500 applied last year. nearly double..

No ... there were 45,500 first year places last year.

The number of applications has increased by ~10% to ~72,000

cork*girl

I didnt say life is fair.

felic

There really is no 'turns' here. By any means, once you sit your leaving cert, you are entitled to apply every single year if you want, do 20 degree courses if you want.
Stop blaming the people who are just doing what you are.. 'trying to find a means to support themselves in their careers and lives'. If its someone to blame ur after... look to our government. They knew this would happen and did nothing.

Look at any dole office on sign in day! Queues and queues of people. DO you think all those people get out of bed every day jumping for joy that after all that study, all that working and saving, 6 years down the line find themselves in that queue?

I say well done to those people who are going down the 'lets do another degree course'!. First, unlike a first timer, they have to fork out thousands to pay for it... and second, they have to more or less cast aside the last 10 years of their lives and start again! For no fault of their own. Simply because they have no other choice and dont want to be on the dole forever... which is whats looking to be the case for many of them.

So ditch you 'poor me its so unfair' and get working if you want a place.

What will happen as a result is fees will be brought back in for everyone. Its the only thing that will reduce the numbers.
Do you think thats fair?

ardmacha

Do you think the people who worked their ass off and paid taxes for the last 5 / 10 / 15 years think it's fair that they are now on the dole with big debts because the unholy trinity of banks / developers / govt. lost the run of themselves, made huge profits, and forgot to plan for next year?

Well you have to imagine that some of these people voted Fianna Fail and so brought this mess on the rest of us.

randylonghorn

ardmacha wrote: »

Well you have to imagine that some of these people voted Fianna Fail and so brought this mess on the rest of us.

Presumably, so did a similar proportion of the parents of the people doing LC this year!

See?! ... as every teenager knows, it's all the parents' fault!!!

Calum196

felic wrote: »

Well I think its very difficult to make any predictions at this early stage in terms of points. But we can be sure, that increased numbers in applicants, and low numbers of university places, points will rise.
The very high points course Id imagine will remain around the same levels they have been for the last few years. They never show a major drop or rise. What makes them so high is the numbers of people wanting to get those courses and also the number of people who repeat the leaving from the year before. The majority of repeats who try for courses like Veterinary, Pharmacy, Medicine, Dentistry, all pretty much get their 600 points cos they have a year of full time revision, and if the person got say 560 the first time... you know?

I hate this HPAT assessment thing. I love the idea of making things fair and that was the intention, but if you look at it, its still a points race there. So for anyone going for Medicine, you need to secure your 550 points to be in with a chance. The HPAT is a tough exam and you cant predict what way those results will go. But ud need to be hitting the 730 mark this year for all of the medicine courses.

The increase in applicants is very unlikely to affect the points for medicine. All the 20 somethings leaving construction sites to go to college are not likely to be applying for medicine. The points are likely to remain static.

felic

lol@ Calum. Thats very true. I cant really see a Bob the Builder type going into Medicine or Dentistry. But ya never know.

Messi 10

More applications, same number of college places.
How do you think the points will go?

Obviously they'll go up. Ye all say that medicine will stay the same but I wouldn't be too sure of that. I'd say it'll go up. Not because of the mature students, because as some of you have already said the vast majority of them won't be applying to medicine.

The reason it'll go up is because last year was the first year of the hpat and people weren't really used to it. People will do better at it this year as they will be better able to prepare and many people will be doing the exam for a second time. Also the new maths tables make subjects like physics and maths significantly easier which will lead to better results. So my theory is, the points for medicine will go up slightly

Making It Bad

I have no problem with mature students wanting the go to college. The problem I have is the route that they get to use to go to college. They should be made redo The Leaving Cert if they are really serious about furthering their education. They should then be thrown in with the points system like the rest of us poor young souls.

Messi 10 wrote: »

The reason it'll go up is because last year was the first year of the hpat and people weren't really used to it. People will do better at it this year as they will be better able to prepare and many people will be doing the exam for a second time. Also the new maths tables make subjects like physics and maths significantly easier which will lead to better results. So my theory is, the points for medicine will go up slightly

Not true. If the marks are up for physics/maths this year because of new formulae tables they will make the marking scheme stricter, like they always do. The results are fitted to a bell-curve which means the result as a whole will be the exact same as they were last year (and the year before that and the year before that and so on...).

Messi 10

Messi 10 wrote: »

More applications, same number of college places.
How do you think the points will go?

Obviously they'll go up. Ye all say that medicine will stay the same but I wouldn't be too sure of that. I'd say it'll go up. Not because of the mature students, because as some of you have already said the vast majority of them won't be applying to medicine.

The reason it'll go up is because last year was the first year of the hpat and people weren't really used to it. People will do better at it this year as they will be better able to prepare and many people will be doing the exam for a second time. Also the new maths tables make subjects like physics and maths significantly easier which will lead to better results. So my theory is, the points for medicine will go up slightly

The new tables don't make the exams easier, you still need to know how to work stuff out. The high scoring questions require more of you than to find a formula and plonk stuff into it.

And the HPAT is an exam designed to deliver the same points scale every year. The marking scheme is designed so that the 50th percentile is always ~150 points, so HPAT scores won't be increasing dramatically. Any rise in medicine will be due to LC points, and considering the points are capped at 560, it's not that significant after you reach 550.

Professional Griefer

randylonghorn wrote: »

I don't mean to sound harsh, but who told you life was fair?

Do you think the people who worked their ass off and paid taxes for the last 5 / 10 / 15 years think it's fair that they are now on the dole with big debts because the unholy trinity of banks / developers / govt. lost the run of themselves, made huge profits, and forgot to plan for next year?



No ... there were 45,500 first year places last year.

The number of applications has increased by ~10% to ~72,000

I know that if i don't get into college then thats my fault for not working hard enough, so I won't be blaming anyone come August.

Making It Bad

Deleted User wrote: »

The new tables don't make the exams easier, you still need to know how to work stuff out. The high scoring questions require more of you than to find a formula and plonk stuff into it.

They definitely do make exams easier. Take for example the integration section of maths, for certain questions the students would have formally be forced to make a substitution in order to integrate. Now there are new formulae which do it in one step. But as I said, this still won't increase the results which people get because the results will still be fitted to a bell-curve.

felic

LC students now have it very cushy in comparison to a number of years ago. Seriously, it may not go down well, but the exams have gone piss easy or the formats have changed so much that the idea is to maximise marks. ANd the idea of project work gives people a huge example. Hence the increase in numbers of students getting 600 in the last number of years. to jump for say on average, 6 students in the country to what it is now of about 168? Hmmmm. Better teaching and smarter kids my eye!

toiletduck

Why all the hate for mature students? :pac: In fairness, once ye go to college ye'll hate them again once ye see that (in general) they work far harder and tend to do better than fresh-outta-the-LC students.


The main thing I see happening in regards to the rise in applicants, is a massive first year dropout rate next year.