SAW, LMG and support tactics

Stercus Accidit

Given the shtate of a few of the threads lately (no offence, they are just a bit tense for my liking) I thought a good old fashioned skirmishing based thread would be fun, and I have had this one in my head a while.

I have seen plenty of discussion of sniper tactics, and some great ideas and tips got shared, I was wondering the same of the support gunner role.

I have tried it myself, rpk, drum mag, and I didn't really feel I was doing anything different (other than half breaking my wrist firing one handed for the lol) than I would do with a much handier assault rifle style aeg.
I sold my drum and gave up, and went back to standard assault role stuff.

I then saw a documentary about machine guns on discovery channel or something (woot) and it covered some tactics for their use. In WWI machine guns were set at the edges of a field, not facing directly their targets, as the targets would appear spread out, instead they positioned themselves on the flank, and would fire in from the sides, with a narrower line of targets to view.

I once sat myself head on with the old support gun and got the face shot off me asap. I do recall doing very well back at the gathering 1, with the same aeg but always from a flank, similar to what was described in the documentary.

What I was wondering was are there any tactics for support gun use that people find apply in airsoft, I think plopping one on the flank works to an extent, you dont have a line of lads facing you all popping up to take you out. I know there is far more tactics and theory to it than just that, so if people with training or experience want to discuss what works, please do so, I might have another crack at this myself.

So support role, what works, and does it have a place in airsoft? Where to deploy, and should you have a spotter or some protection from the enemy, and does that negate the role entirely?

Frank the Manc

Ther is some good infor discussed on Arnies, in the Foxhole.
The following is taken from two lads over there:

Key -
R- Rifleman
S- SAW
G- 203 Gunner
F- Fireteam Leader
SL - Squad Leader

Basic Squad and Fireteam Formations

Wedge



The wedge formation is the basic formation for most fireteams in open terrain. It will not remain a perfect wedge, as the team must manuever around objects. Terrain will dictate how tight the wedge will be, or the distance in which the fireteam leader feels he has the most control of his team.


Move to Contact

Moving to contact is an extremely simple thing, and virtually everything the infantryman does revolves around moving to contact. When moving to contact the squad/fireteam will move forward until fired upon. Once the squad/team makes contact, several things will take place.
1.) The squad/fireteam takes cover(going prone, or getting as low as possible behind hard cover), and yelling the 3 Ds. The three Ds are Direction, Discription, Distance(in no particular order).

Ex. "12 O'Clock, 2 men, 150 meters!"

This will be repeated by everyone as it moves down the line, so everyone has a general idea of what is taking place.
2.) The team who makes contact will get on line, and attempt to gain fire superiority by going into a cyclic rate of fire, and putting as many rounds downrange as possible.
3.) The squad leader will move foward and assess the situation.
4.) Once the squad leader has moved forward he will make one of several decisions:
A.) Initiate squad attack
B.) Break Contact
C.) Get his entire squad on line, and call for reinforcements


Squad Attack
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1.) The squad will move to contact
2.) Once the squad makes contact, the lead fireteam will attempt to gain fire superiority. When the squad leader feels this has been accomplished, he will move forward to the lead fireteam's leader. The rear team will pull 360 degree security. The lead team will drop to a sustained rate of fire. When the squad leader gets to the team leader, he will assess the situation based on what the fireteam leader has reported, and determine if he is going to flank left, or right.
3.) After this decision has been made, the squad leader will move to the rear fireteam, and tell them what is taking place ahead, and what direction they will be flanking. In the above illustration, the squad leader has decided to flank right.
4.) The team will make an exaggerated manuever to the right, getting out of sight of the enemy, approximately 150 to 200 meters away from the enemy position. As the flanking team gets closer to that flank, the support by fire team(the lead fireteam) will pick up its rate of fire to a cyclic rate. The squad leader will center the team as best he can on the enemy position. Once he has done so, he will give the signal for "shift fire"(represented by the blue lines). When this signal is given the support by fire team will fire to the right of the enemy position as not to hit friendly troops if they get onto the enemy position.
5.) The flanking team will now begin to IMT(Individual Movement Techniques, or buddy team bounding) to the objective. The team will not open fire until the last possible moment, whether it be that they are discovered, or until the squad leader gives the order. They will continue to IMT through the "objective"(the enemy position) killing the enemy, and kicking the weapons of the enemy to the side. The team will keep moving until the reach the LOA(Limit of Advance), which is usually 35 meters(out of hand grenade range) from the objective. The signal for the LOA will be given by the squad leader, and will be repeated by everyone in the assaulting team. Once the LOA has been reached, the squad leader will give the "lift fire" command, which is firing on targets of opportunity if they arrise(Ex: an enemy combatant picks up a weapon). The assaulting team will pull security.
6.) The support by fire team will now pickup their weapons and equipment, and bound through the objective, until they reach their LOA. If a threat arrises, they will eliminate it. Once they reach their LOA, they will also pull security.
7.) The squad leader will now move to the apex of the "triangle" formed by the two teams at their LOA. He will then yell for an ACE report(Ammo, Casualties, Equipment), which will contain how much ammo each man has, if they are wounded(the team leader will physically check) and how much water each man has. The team leader will gather the required info, and report back to the squad leader. The squad leader will then report to his highers. Each team will redistribute ammunition, then pickup, and carry on with the mission.

LINEAR AMBUSH(could also be considered a hasty ambush)
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1.) The squad leader will set up an ORP(Operational Rally Point). This will be done approximately 200 to 300 meters away from the ambush point. Here, the squad will assign special teams, and distribute special equipment(claymores, anti-tank weapons for special equipment, EPW and Demolition teams) if it hasn't been done before the operation. This point will be the point in which the team will return to after the ambush. After this is completed the squad leader will take the security teams fireteam leader, and SAW, and conduct leader's recon. What the squad leader is looking for is the point in which he wants to conduct the ambush, and he is getting a general idea of where he wants to place all this men. Now, the squad leader will return to the ORP.
2.) The squad will now leave their ORP(and be counted out by the squad leader). When they arrive on site, the security teams will be sent between 50 to 75 meters from the rest of the squad on the left, and right of the ambushing fireteam. Their job is to ensure that the ambushing fireteam isn't discovered by enemy patrols or scout elements. As the enemy approaches the position they will also make sure that there are no rear elements that might be able to counter attack, or re-enforce the ambushed units. The ambushing fireteam will be hand placed by the squad leader. Claymore will also be placed by the squad leader where he feels they will be most effective.
3.) When the enemy squad approaches, the first element to sight them will send a count of enemy troops. As they approach the ambushing fireteams position, the squad leader will wait until they get into the kill zones of the claymore mines. When the squad leader is ready, the claymores will be set off. This initiates the ambush. The fireteam will open up with everything they have. They will fire until one minute has passed, and if they enemy is still moving, will continue to fire for another 30 seconds.
4.) Now the enemy has been eliminated. The ambushing fireteam will begin movement at a high rate of speed to the ORP, along with the squad leader. The squad leader will count his men coming in.
5.) After the ambushing team has arrived at the ORP, the security teams will be pulled in, and counted by the squad leader. Ammunition will now be redistributed, and the squad will carry on with the mission.

REACT TO NEAR AMBUSH
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First, lets discuss the difference between a near, and far ambush. A near ambush is an ambush that takes place within hand grenade distance(35 meters). A far ambush is an ambush that takes palce outside of hand grenade range. Now, we will discuss what to do in case of a near ambush. Reacting to a near ambush can be done in several ways.

1.) While moving in a wedge formation, the squad recieves fire from their left flank. Someone in the team will yell the 2Ds(Distance, Direction).
2.) The squad will now attempt to get on line. In this case, the rear fireteam has been able to set up what will become a flanking manuever, and will now begin to pour on the fire. The first fireteam will now begin to assault through the ambush, and a shift fire signal will be given.
3.) The first fireteam will move to their LOA, and the signal for LOA will be given. The rear fireteam will move through the enemy position to their LOA.
4. Once all the teams have moved into position, the squad leader will move to the apex of the teams, and get the ACE report. The squad leader will report actions to the higher, ammo will be redistributed, and the team will keep moving.

Keep in mind that if the ambush was properly executed, everyone will be dead. A far ambush can be less catastrophic on the squad than a near ambush, and reacting can be the same. In a far ambush, instead of assaulting through, the team may want to break contact, and bombard the enemy with artillery.

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Glockguy's tactics are good if you have a squad you can actually practice with prior to events. Me I tend to fall into the pickup squads, so I always try to take 30secs with my usually newfound friends and tell them how best to use me. I tell them basically: keep me in visual sight, and when you want me to suppress an area, point with full four fingers (to distinguish from just pointing something out) and thats it. I also then stress when I'm laying suppression its not just for drama - as you won't tend to get kills during it - the enemy bunkers down. So when I'm suppressing I tell my squad to MOVE and get angles on them. THEY get the kills not me. I find if you don't take the time to tell them that what most players do when you let loose with a long volley is just to sit and watch the show. Which is ultimately a waste of your bbs and everyone's time.

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Remember in airsoft concealment and cover are the same thing. Exactly as they are not in real life. Hide in tall grass in real life and the enemy may not be able to see you but when they let loose a volley in to the reeds you'll be just as dead as if you'd been standing in an open field. Hide in tall grass in airsoft and you might as well be in a concrete bunker. Grass stops airsoft bbs like chobham armor stops tankshells. So don't get mad if you send 1,000 bbs downrange into leaves and such and don't hit anything. Sure you can cut thru leaves with a long volley, but even so pretty much everything in the path to your target area will deflect a bb down to the lightest of leaves and bugs. Don't spaz because someone who's lieing behind a pile of twigs is not calling their hits: its perfectly possible they are NOT getting hit. But don't worry - what they ARE hearing is your hail of fire pinking off everything around them and they are pinned - meanwhile your riflemen are lining up the killshot. Feel good. Fear is as fun to inflict as kills.

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The other thing you need to watch out for is tunnel vision. If you're suppressing an area, you WILL become a primary target. Any and all flankers WILL be going for angles on YOU. Keep your head on a swivel, or fire from positions with cover on both sides of you.

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Always stay behind the main line. Never get sucked into going point. and you will always get asked to go first. I somehow always seem to end up in front of my teammates. A SAW gunner on Point is an oxymoron... You are pretty worthless up there: even with the STAR's light plastic weight you will never bring a MkII up to engage position faster than an opponent rifleman. Well, if you can carry your saw around in perpetual ready-carry position all day, go for it. You are stronger than I ever will be, and I'm no shrinking violet...

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Having said all that - as a SAW gunner you have the unique ability to CREATE moving cover. That is, never underestimate the SAWs ability to make an otherwise concealed and covered enemy feel like they are naked in a spotlight on center stage. If you need to cross an opening, do not be afraid to just stand up and let a CONTINUOUS burst rake the known enemy position and do a walking advance. Watch how fast your squad moves out when they see you doing this. Massive moral boost. BUT - be SURE you know where your enemy is - you'll be the fool when you walk into the opening suppressing the enemy in front of you and the guy you didn't know about nails you in the side...

Still, every SAW gunner has to do the walking cover fire once in their life. Few things better in airsoft.

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Next is not tactics but technical bits.

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Lubing - I lube the ###### out of my gearbox. Every event I shoot some lube into the gearbox. If I can't pull that off before an event I at least fire some into the qujick change spring release hole. There is no such thing as too much grease in a gearbox.

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BUT... there IS such a thing as too much grease in the cylinder, hopup, magazines, etc. Cant' speak to the TOP and STAR (though I imagine they're the same) but on the CA if you greae up the the magazines and/or the cylinder/nozzle it will take you a good half day to get your hopup dried out enough that its actually working well. Hundreds even thousands of rounds. BE CAREFUL! if you do have to grease your mags and barrel and whatnot and are running with a wet hopup for hte morning keep an eye on your bb flightpaths. At some point in the day (say around lunchtime more or less depending on the # of rounds you fire) you'll notice your bb's start to rise dramatically. Thats the hopup starting to grip correctly. IMMEDIATELY dial back hopup. As in right now, even if you're in a firefight. The amount of hopup you had dialed in in the morning that worked for your wet hopup chamber and barrel and bbs is WAY TOO MUCH once the rubber really starts gripping. You run the risk of a jam. So take the 30 seconds and dial down that hop.

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As for lubing the mags, I do that maybe once a season. The barrel... if you can clean it without wetting the hopup do so before each event - pure silicon oil works, but if you have the time to dissassemble and such, nothing touches brass cleaner for an ultra smooth clean barrel. It DOES make a fps and accuracy difference. But, remembering you're a SAW gunner... accuracy is, well, not top priority. Reliability and volume are your targets.

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Winding - I always wind the box mag until I hear the internal spring in it pop pop popping. Meaning I've got a full wind of the spring. On my gun this is good for 100 or so rds before I have to start winding. If you don't wind that much you might dryfire a good % of your starting volley. I like the combo of spring+motor to feed bbs as opposed to just relying on the motor because no boxmags, not the STAR's not TOP's, not MAG's not CA's can keep up just on boxmag motor with a saw with a fast enough rof. BUT - winding always to spring tension will put more strain on your boxmag as you walk around waiting for an engagement with it wound up. If you do maintenance on your boxmag pay attention to the windaxlewhere the spring attaches to the axle. Thats where it'll let loose first. (All the box mags are the same design on this). Its not a big deal if the spring comes unattached to the axle or even snaps there, just guide some more spring into the axle grooves - its alot like feeding weedwhacker wire).

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Also, occasionally give the feeder tube a wiggle as you're walking about.

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Boxmags make great improvised bipods. Catridge pouches do not.

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Spring guide - on the STARs when you use position 2 as its been called (basically shoving the spring guide into the box mag further so the catch catches on the springguide's back instead of its notch - btw you can do the very same thing on the CA and the PCG for the TOP, but there's no need to since they shoot the correct fps in the stoc position, heh - if you do do that, or even if you're in stock position... check to see if when you fold your rear stock up if it touches the spring guide. If not, you can stuff some clothe or such in there. Does a couple things - lowers the "Banging" of the springguide on decompression cycles - you carry more of the back reaction to the receiver and your shoulder, which will move less, meaning more of the decompression momentum energy of the spring is transferred to the cylinder's velocity = morefps. Its minute, so its up to you. I personally like the idea of the gun's body structurally supporting the springguide on it's center axis. Some may feel this is not a big deal or worth it. I've yet to have my gun fail in a single event over three hundred thousand rounds, however. Either way, take it for the anecdotal advice it is.

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Inner barrel - this is a CA thing. Specifically a MkII thing. I wind some electrical tape around my innerbarrel at the end for a snug fit inside the outbarrel. Yes there are some spacers in the in a couple places down the length of the barrel to locate it, but after I locked my saw onto a shooting bench and checked it out I got much tighter groupings with that little bit of tape providing extra rigidity. Also - it helps keep water and dirt and mud out of the outer barrel's interior. Clean = good.

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Allen wrench - Keep an allen wrench taped to the inside of the pistol grip inside the compartment there if your gun has it. That way you can change batteries bia the buttplate in the field without having to go back to your car for the tool. Use good tape, don't rely on the compartment door to hold it...

Firekitten

The same that work in real life really apply here...

Your job, as the support gunner is in the name, Support. Your role is to supress the enemy while your lightly armed infantry skip around the sides and flank...

Tips ive discovered/learned.

Controled Burst fire... just holding the trigger down will get you shot, break your gun, and waste ammo.

Setting your hop a little high gives you longer range and the 'artillery effect' to area bombard with rounds. - your job is to mske them take cover... not rack up kills....

A mix of .25s .2 and some lighter bbs create a nice 'cone' of fire out of the barrel and aid spread.

Tracer... will get you killed. Where is he? follow the dotted line... literally.

good fire positions are essential. You want enough space for cover, reloading and arcs of fire against the enemy.

Dont do cqb as a support gunner.... its evifently highly practical to do cqb with an m60.... oh wait, its not. Let the doorkickers handle that, you cover the house from the outside, or set up inside against counter attack later. You're too unweildy to be in the front wave.... so dont bother.

a good sling = priceless.

choose weapon based on strength... m60 style needs to be carried more.... box mag on left hand side can get knocked by the body of weaker right handed folk. (Me). where a 249 is an underslung mag.... and easier to lug without disturbing the feed.

Know your weapon and maintain it.... you fire more bbs than the average player, it needs to be looked after more often than they do.

Great start Sam, Just wanted to drop a few tips for folks, heres to a support gunning thread taking off
Firekitten, Boards.ie duvet cover corespondant

Lemming

I think the biggest hurdle to FSG tactics in airsoft is

1. People using support-guns as a crutch for an assault rifle with box-mag
2. Other players who just sit back rather than take advantage of suppressive fire

As an MG player, a lot of people have this expectation that you will get "lots of kills". This is as far from the truth as you can imagine. If several players run across the open in front of your rather clear LOF, then yes you will. But the role of an MG is as supporting-arms and is most effective in area-denial and suppression, allowing your section/platoon/company/team/whatever take advantage of the fact you've scuppered the enemy team's plan of attack/defense at least momentarily.

As for placement, whatever works at the end of the day. Being stuck in the middle of a line is not ideal, unless you have team members advancing on either flank. Similarly, switch this to an MG being off to one side (or a corner in Stercius case) providing suppression cover whilst your side advances or withdraws or whatever it is that needs achieved. Elevated placement is particularly effective in an urban setting where you will cause untold misery amidst the area-denial. It also means that if you are providing suppression fire, your team are clear of your LOF (much like being to one side of the line, etc.).

If you are on either side of a line, you will need covered by other team mates. MGs are horrendously exposed to the sides and rear, and if I am deployed with little cover to my sides, I make a point of having my pistol and/or pyro out and within swift reach should I need it (and have a chance to respond). But really, you need cover from other players more than anything else.

The other thing that can be a hinderance for support-guns is a bipod/tripod. They are not always suitable for use as they have a tendancy to push you higher off the ground when you really want to be as low to the ground as you can be. It very much depends on the circumstances as to when you would take advantage of a stabliser such as a bipod/tripod, and when you'll just use your arms or rest the barrel on an object in front of you.

Edit. Oh yes, the other thing. CQB. Never, ever, ever attempt this with an MG unless you do not have a side-arm and/or pyro on you, and you are either all alone or up the creak without a paddle. Let your section do the clearing for you whilst you either cover them or watch their rear. If I have to go down to a side-arm and pyro in CQB I am either on the impending end of boll*cksed, or I have backup literally coming in the door behind me.

If you are on a march/patrol, etc. the section MG should be up near the front and ready to respond quickly. If you are not, be prepared to sprint your @rse off and drop fast to put down cover for your section.

Edit 2. Something Franc mentioned and I neglected to. Tunnel vision. Be mindful of it. As I've said, you'll ideally have team mates covering your exposed flanks, but all the same ....

RampantWolf

It is also good to have someone else with you.

In RL you have a second person who carries the spare barrel, helps with the belt feed, carries extra ammo, helps with the barrel change, coordinates with the rest of the section etc. etc.

You won't need most of that but having someone who can cover you while you are deploying, bugging out, refilling the box mag with BB's etc. is always a good idea. A lone support gunner is a prime target.

Firekitten

Or filling the mag while you fire....

a feature possible with the Inokatsu m60 and Team Lemming (The assistant gunner/ part time gun stealer)

Puding

had great fun with correct fire support tactics in the past but does really on limit ammo rules and use of midcaps to make a support weapon work in its intended role, as soon as ammo rules on into play, support can start to shine as it should

Lemming

Puding wrote: »

had great fun with correct fire support tactics in the past but does really on limit ammo rules and use of midcaps to make a support weapon work in its intended role, as soon as ammo rules on into play, support can start to shine as it should

Very true. In your non-ammo-restricted games, the only real benefit to an MG is the fact that it has sustained fire and a box-mag. In a restricted game, it becomes a whole other ball-game although still requires other players to be on the ball with regards exploiting the capabilities of an MG in their section/team.

Firekitten

The problem with airsoft in general (Sweeping statement o clock) Is that nearly every player uses what ammounts to a support gun with un controled full auto, no real aiming, no real tactics. So much fire goes down in your average game its truely nuts. Its what would happen if everyone gave the usmc and inhabitants of faluja each machineguns .... a cluster**** on a tactical scale.

Milsim ftw

TheDoc

From section setup and management, having a support gunner in your ranks, who knows how to wield it, gives you some serious options you just wouldnt have without.

Allowing the section to move rapidly in various directions with the heavy fire support is a godsend, and when the **** hits the fan and you need a way out, its immense having a guy to lay down heavy fire to cover your exit.

Lemming

TheDoc wrote: »

From section setup and management, having a support gunner in your ranks, who knows how to wield it, gives you some serious options you just wouldnt have without.

Allowing the section to move rapidly in various directions with the heavy fire support is a godsend, and when the **** hits the fan and you need a way out, its immense having a guy to lay down heavy fire to cover your exit.

Conversely, it's an awesome sight to watch your section take advantage of the MG putting down fire. Very satisfying.

Stercus Accidit

What about volume of fire, spread and that sort of thing, is 25 rps needed to be properly effective with spread or does a normal rof do the business?

I get 18-19 on a 9.6v but I have a setup that could easily take a lipo.

I've the rpk rebuilt after the mosfet blew up and am dying to take it out, I have 8 150 round mids for it, no drum, I know dex used to swear by mids in an m249 but I wonder how realistically Id get any use from them for support use, I'm thinking not at all in a regular game, maybe in a milsim.

FK hit a point there about range, having the hop up a bit did wonders in the past with the rpk, it was like a little cloud of bbs drifting in from above on my targets, and with burst fire the loss in accuracy didn't matter, but ammo use was high.

Firekitten

Sam: I prefer lower rate of fire... bbs last longer, and to be honest, theres enough to keep heads down... high rate of fire is... impressive.... but not really as big a decider imo.

Frank the Manc

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

What about volume of fire, spread and that sort of thing, is 25 rps needed to be properly effective with spread or does a normal rof do the business?

I get 18-19 on a 9.6v but I have a setup that could easily take a lipo.

I've the rpk rebuilt after the mosfet blew up and am dying to take it out, I have 8 150 round mids for it, no drum, I know dex used to swear by mids in an m249 but I wonder how realistically Id get any use from them for support use, I'm thinking not at all in a regular game, maybe in a milsim.

FK hit a point there about range, having the hop up a bit did wonders in the past with the rpk, it was like a little cloud of bbs drifting in from above on my targets, and with burst fire the loss in accuracy didn't matter, but ammo use was high.

A lower ROF & stock barrel will give you a greater suppressive area & consequently your ammo will go further i.e. not distance-wise.

Its all about keeping heads down over a greater area, allowing your team to advance.
Once youre bbs are hitting the enemies cover or near to that should do the trick.

JonnyTwoCombs

FK just a quick question, perhaps maybe a little of topic but here goes!

You said setting your hop a little high is of benefit. Do you mean setting it so that BB arch up wards??

Yeah, I know it sounds like some sort of special needs questions, but if you don’t ask, you don’t find out

moggser

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

FK just a quick question, perhaps maybe a little of topic but here goes!

You said setting your hop a little high is of benefit. Do you mean setting it so that BB arch up wards??

Yeah, I know it sounds like some sort of special needs questions, but if you don’t ask, you don’t find out

yep thats right

its called makin it rain

JonnyTwoCombs

moggser wrote: »

yep thats right

its called makin it rain

Cheers!

Puding

have to agree with with fk on this, low ish rof would be my aim nice spread, primary aim is not to take people out but to control movement and keep the other guys head down,

high rof would have its advantages but with it you gain increased wear on parts and a high chance of a much problem, medium rof with solid gearbox for reliability

know if only they would make a pkm

MacAonghusa

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

So support role, what works, and does it have a place in airsoft? Where to deploy, and should you have a spotter or some protection from the enemy, and does that negate the role entirely?

The most basic function, IMO, is to get a big volume of fire down range and keep the enemies head down. IMO, in airsoft that means get your lmg into a good covered position and let 'em loose. Your team should then have cover to do what they need to do.

Firekitten

JonnyTwoCombs wrote: »

FK just a quick question, perhaps maybe a little of topic but here goes!

You said setting your hop a little high is of benefit. Do you mean setting it so that BB arch up wards??

Yeah, I know it sounds like some sort of special needs questions, but if you don’t ask, you don’t find out

Not a significant arch, but setting the hop so the bb begins to curl at the end of straight flight, will cause a low arc effect, extending your range, because its now higher, so the bb travels further before it hits the ground.... make sense?

MacAonghusa wrote: »

The most basic function, IMO, is to get a big volume of fire down range and keep the enemies head down. IMO, in airsoft that means get your lmg into a good covered position and let 'em loose. Your team should then have cover to do what they need to do.

Not really....

Your role is getting thier heads down, which is right, But supression is an art, not a science. You can supress someone as effectively with a sniper rifle, as you can an lmg. and one is firing one round every two seconds, one, 25 per second. Making them aware of your presence, your threat, and your ability to hit them, keeps people down. To be an effective support gunner, you must be able to do this for as long as it takes to get rid of them through flank manouvre....

Pissing away all your ammo in the first 5 minutes means Jonhnny on the Red team gets up, realises hes not been shot, and then turns and can deal with the now head on threat of the assault force, and mince them.

Ammo conservation and support gunning are not mutually exlusive.

The main thing to consider here is this.... As a player, I know my best chance of taking down a support gun, is when the gunner is reloading. In most... it takes some time as few carry a spare box. Strike when its down, and neutralise the threat.... the longer you can go between reloading, the less chasnce you have of some smartarse like me taking you down. Naturally, playacting out of ammo is a surefire way to encourage those pesky enemy to charge to do same...

Puding wrote: »

know if only they would make a pkm

Ah but they are.



*Edit*Puding: I Have a friend in the Kong... Its coming out of Kalash, based on several real varients, a PK, PKM, and a civil model as far as I'm aware. I'll provide an update when its apropriate.

Puding

Firekitten wrote: »

Ah but they are.

source! i;ve seen to many rumors and vaporware at this point my dear

MacAonghusa

Firekitten wrote: »

You can supress someone as effectively with a sniper rifle, as you can an lmg.

No you can't (in airsoft). A sniper rifle has a VERY limited ROF and capacity and is not nearly as effective as a lmg with 2-3k bbs.

There's a reason why armies adopted lmgs/fsws/saws, they required higher firepower than an assault rifle could give. The whole reasoning behind having a FSG in every section is to have a source of mobile sustained firepower which will reduce the effectiveness of enemy fire while the rest of the section does their business.

Firekitten wrote: »

Pissing away all your ammo in the first 5 minutes means Jonhnny on the Red team gets up, realises hes not been shot, and then turns and can deal with the now head on threat of the assault force, and mince them.
...
As a player, I know my best chance of taking down a support gun, is when the gunner is reloading.

You're assuming the support gunner is alone and his friends haven't closed in for the kill while Johnny was hiding behind a bush (or that the support gunner doesn't have support of his own who could cover him while he's reloading).
A lmg on it's own is only a little better than an ordinary aeg; eventually they will need to reload as you say. But used right it gives the rest of the team an opportunity to either get out of trouble or get into a better position to launch an assault.
The purpose of the support gunner is to support the movements of the team.

Lemming

MacAonghusa wrote: »

You're assuming the support gunner is alone and his friends haven't closed in for the kill while Johnny was hiding behind a bush (or that the support gunner doesn't have support of his own who could cover him while he's reloading).

Since you are talking about airsoft and not real armies, the above is rare to find ... since most wielders of support guns and/or their team mates haven't a scoobies about how to employ said guns effectively other than treating them as a BB hose. So in all likelihood, Johnny has just emptied his box mag whilst his team mates sit and have a chat hoping that his p*ssing away a few thousand rounds has magically resulted in the opposing target being hit by default. They then wait several seconds to see what happens next. Stand up, and then get hosed for their trouble.

The above is true even in MilSim games, although the chance of finding people who know what they're at and can employ support guns effectively is greatly increased.

Oh. incidentally I have watched a platoon-sized assault fall apart because of a sniper (in Sweden). So claiming that lower ROF = less effective suppression is myopic at best.

Firekitten

MacAonghusa wrote: »

No you can't (in airsoft). A sniper rifle has a VERY limited ROF and capacity and is not nearly as effective as a lmg with 2-3k bbs.

Yes, You can, In airsoft.
Funny reallu... it's ROF as limited as the real one. Both being bolt action and all. And used correctly, YES, it is as effective, if used DIFFERENTLY. I am not suggesting putting 2/3k bbs at a target...

How else is it possible to keep 20 guys pinned for around 2 hours in a house with one bolt action rifle?
By your logic, its not

MacAonghusa wrote: »

There's a reason why armies adopted lmgs/fsws/saws, they required higher firepower than an assault rifle could give. The whole reasoning behind having a FSG in every section is to have a source of mobile sustained firepower which will reduce the effectiveness of enemy fire while the rest of the section does their business.

First 'in airsoft' now in 'the real world' Make your mind up...

Actually, no, the role of LMGs/LSWs, is to EXTEND the squad effective RANGE. NOT provide fire support on a section level to the extent you suggest. It does have a supporting role, but not as great as your image suggests. Supresion, does not, I repeat, does not, take, 2000 bbs.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

You're assuming the support gunner is alone and his friends haven't closed in for the kill while Johnny was hiding behind a bush (or that the support gunner doesn't have support of his own who could cover him while he's reloading).

This is airsofters we're talking about.... Assumption makes an ass out of you, and umption. (Sorry Sammy)

MacAonghusa wrote: »

A lmg on it's own is only a little better than an ordinary aeg; eventually they will need to reload as you say. But used right it gives the rest of the team an opportunity to either get out of trouble or get into a better position to launch an assault.
The purpose of the support gunner is to support the movements of the team.

No, an LMG on its own used right trumps an aeg completely, used wrongly, its the same as an aeg.

Your logic is sound in places, but your connective thought processes are somewhat... fragile or impractical. Its fair call to add your 2cents to the discussion, but I think you need to understand that your faith in airsofters combat effectiveness is... idealistic?

Lemming

A question on what counts as suppression. Which is more effective?

A.
Support gun pouring out 2/3k rounds, hits 2 people in an eight-man section and pins the rest.

B.
Sniper rifle that gets off four rounds, and hits four members of an eight-man section and pins the rest for fear of also getting hit.

So, which is better? 4 rounds? or 4000? They're the flip-side of the exact same coin and neither is better than the other.

Puding

my answer would be both have there use , both a suppression but different forms in my eyes, a sniper can hold up and large force but would not be as effective in supporting a section trying to move across open ground or into a building

the right tool for the right job as they say

Lemming

Puding wrote: »

my answer would be both have there use , both a suppression but different forms in my eyes, a sniper can hold up and large force but would not be as effective in supporting a section trying to move across open ground or into a building

the right tool for the right job as they say

Yup, said what I was trying to say only more concisely. The right tool for the right job. Both suppress, they just do it in different ways when applied.

Firekitten

Puding wrote: »

my answer would be both have there use , both a suppression but different forms in my eyes, a sniper can hold up and large force but would not be as effective in supporting a section trying to move across open ground or into a building

the right tool for the right job as they say

Any tool, used right, can do anything right... weight of fire has its place, this is why support guns exist. for support. But supression is an art that not all users of support guns understand....

Teaching them the principal with a lower rof weapon makes them deadly when they have the higher one.

MacAonghusa

Lemming wrote: »

Since you are talking about airsoft and not real armies, the above is rare to find ... since most wielders of support guns and/or their team mates haven't a scoobies about how to employ said guns effectively other than treating them as a BB hose

Very true. Although it wouldn't be too clever of a support gunner to sit and empty his mag without giving consideration to how he's going to get out of there 'alive'

Lemming wrote: »

Oh. incidentally I have watched a platoon-sized assault fall apart because of a sniper (in Sweden). So claiming that lower ROF = less effective suppression is myopic at best.

I don't agree. Was the sniper effective because of his gun or his position/ cover? There's bound to be a rare case that with the right cover a sniper can effectively suppress an enemy but used in the right role the only thing better than an lmg is an even bigger gun

Firekitten

MacAonghusa wrote: »

I don't agree. Was the sniper effective because of his gun or his position/ cover? There's bound to be a rare case that with the right cover a sniper can effectively suppress an enemy but used in the right role the only thing better than an lmg is an even bigger gun

No, He was effective because of the threat of people getting hit Welcome to supression 101

Lemming

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Very true. Although it wouldn't be too clever of a support gunner to sit and empty his mag without giving consideration to how he's going to get out of there 'alive'

Heh. Heh. Heh. I'll say nothing.

I don't agree. Was the sniper effective because of his gun or his position/ cover? There's bound to be a rare case that with the right cover a sniper can effectively suppress an enemy but used in the right role the only thing better than an lmg is an even bigger gun

You don't agree? Um ... yah. Does it matter what did the job for the sniper? A very small number of unknowns made a platoon level assault fall apart because

• Unable to spot
• Unable to determine general location due to low rate of fire
• Sniper picked off members at leisure, thus adding to the confusion

So, well concealed AND low ROF suppressed an entire section of woodland and the platoon, plus a further platoon that was following us up. The sniper knew what they were doing and was imo far more effective than two/three support guns hosing fire at us.

Inari

Sniper's strike fear in people because of the silent and (almost) undetectable nature. People drop like flies, or find cover. If they stay in cover, it's suppressive fire. If someone pops up, you fire and make 'em duck down again. You spot, and shoot. It would be an interesting combination to have a support gunner paired with a sniper (as a spotter).

MacAonghusa

Firekitten wrote: »

How else is it possible to keep 20 guys pinned for around 2 hours in a house with one bolt action rifle?
By your logic, its not

What you are describing is not the support gunner role. in that situation surely any gun could do the same job.
In the support gunner role, the support gun wins. That's the essence of my original point.

Firekitten wrote: »

Actually, no, the role of LMGs/LSWs, is to EXTEND the squad effective RANGE. NOT provide fire support on a section level to the extent you suggest. It does have a supporting role, but not as great as your image suggests. Supresion, does not, I repeat, does not, take, 2000 bbs.

Incorrect. It is not merely to extend the range it is to provide more fire support at section level.

Firekitten wrote: »

Your logic is sound in places, but your connective thought processes are somewhat... fragile or impractical.

Thank you. :mad:

Firekitten wrote: »

Its fair call to add your 2cents to the discussion, but I think you need to understand that your faith in airsofters combat effectiveness is... idealistic?

The question was how a support gun could be used. I've merely given my thoughts on how I think it can be used. I've never said airsofters are 'combat effective'.

Firekitten

Inari wrote: »

Sniper's strike fear in people because of the silent and (almost) undetectable nature. People drop like flies, or find cover. If they stay in cover, it's suppressive fire. If someone pops up, you fire and make 'em duck down again. You spot, and shoot. It would be an interesting combination to have a support gunner paired with a sniper (as a spotter).

OH it works very very very well....

Me and Lemming managed to keep a 100m circle of Catterick Obua Village denied to the enemy with a l96 and m60 pairing. Feckers only tried three times in 18 hours to take it, then gave up and had to take long routes and small number movement to get around.

MacAonghusa

Firekitten wrote: »

No, He was effective because of the threat of people getting hit Welcome to supression 101

I'll wager he was effective because of his position.

Lemming

Firekitten wrote: »

OH it works very very very well....

Me and Lemming managed to keep a 100m circle of Catterick Obua Village denied to the enemy with a l96 and m60 pairing..

You forgot the shopping bag full of grenades aided by gravity. God bless Isaac Newton and whomever decided to build that 5-storey tower

Lemming

MacAonghusa wrote: »

I'll wager he was effective because of his position.

Does it MATTER? A support gun needs to be in a good position to be effective as well. A badly used and/or positionde supporting-arms gun is ineffective. Not useless, but ineffective.

Firekitten

MacAonghusa wrote: »

What you are describing is not the support gunner role. in that situation surely any gun could do the same job.

You do catch on eventually

MacAonghusa wrote: »

In the support gunner role, the support gun wins. That's the essence of my original point.

What is that role? That's what we're trying to explain.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Incorrect. It is not merely to extend the range it is to provide more fire support at section level.

you missed the 'effective fire' bit.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

The question was how a support gun could be used. I've merely given my thoughts on how I think it can be used. I've never said airsofters are 'combat effective'.

And we're discussing the essence of the role. Its to keep them supressed. Supression isnt as easy as it sounds. What you dont grasp, is that 'lots and lots of bbs' is NOT the only way to do this. Even support gunners dont need to be ammo whores.

MacAonghusa

Lemming wrote: »

You don't agree? Um ... yah. Does it matter what did the job for the sniper? A very small number of unknowns made a platoon level assault fall apart because

• Unable to spot
• Unable to determine general location due to low rate of fire
• Sniper picked off members at leisure, thus adding to the confusion

So, well concealed AND low ROF suppressed an entire section of woodland and the platoon, plus a further platoon that was following us up. The sniper knew what they were doing and was imo far more effective than two/three support guns hosing fire at us.

I'm not saying the sniper doesn't have a key role in suppression; he clearly does, there's no denying it can be very effective but that's a different roll to what i was talking about earlier.

Puding

Firekitten wrote: »

*Edit*Puding: I Have a friend in the Kong... Its coming out of Kalash, based on several real varients, a PK, PKM, and a civil model as far as I'm aware. I'll provide an update when its apropriate.

will not get my hopes up been disappointed to many times

Firekitten

Puding wrote: »

will not get my hopes up been disappointed to many times

When she said to get your weapon out... she didn't mean your svd doll

MacAonghusa

Firekitten wrote: »

You do catch on eventually

Sure we weren't talking about that roll. sheez. :rolleyes:
You seem to be solely talking about suppression. The support gunners roll extends beyond that, which is what I have been trying to explain. And yes one of the rolls of a support gunner is also suppression.

Firekitten wrote: »

What you dont grasp, is that 'lots and lots of bbs' is NOT the only way to do this. Even support gunners dont need to be ammo whores.

Where have I said it was the only way to do that? :rolleyes:

Edit: We seem to be coming at this from two different directions. You're talking about (the "art" of -) suppression; I'm trying to explain my understanding of the role of a support gunner.

Lemming

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Where have I said it was the only way to do that? :rolleyes:

Here

MacAonghusa wrote: »

The most basic function, IMO, is to get a big volume of fire down range and keep the enemies head down. IMO, in airsoft that means get your lmg into a good covered position and let 'em loose. Your team should then have cover to do what they need to do.

Here.

MacAonghusa wrote: »

No you can't (in airsoft). A sniper rifle has a VERY limited ROF and capacity and is not nearly as effective as a lmg with 2-3k bbs.

There's a reason why armies adopted lmgs/fsws/saws, they required higher firepower than an assault rifle could give. The whole reasoning behind having a FSG in every section is to have a source of mobile sustained firepower which will reduce the effectiveness of enemy fire while the rest of the section does their business.

Here (in disagreeing with my assertion that lower ROF != less suppression).

MacAonghusa wrote: »

I don't agree. Was the sniper effective because of his gun or his position/ cover? There's bound to be a rare case that with the right cover a sniper can effectively suppress an enemy but used in the right role the only thing better than an lmg is an even bigger gun

Firekitten

So back on topic after our little.... detour....



personal preference with the m249.... Removal of the stock bipod, and fitting of ris and a grippod.... Lighter, less front heavy.... better ballence for hip fire during an ambush or contact.

MacAonghusa

Lemming wrote: »

Here
Here.
Here (in disagreeing with my assertion that lower ROF != less suppression).

Eh, wrong, you may try again Lem.
I haven't said that lots and lots of bbs was the only way to suppress an enemy.
I do think the function of a support gunner is to help keeps the enemy's heads down {higher sustained firepower} (1st post) and in that role I think a higher ROF is more effective (2nd 3rd) but where have I said this is the only way to suppress an enemy??

Firekitten

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Eh, wrong, you may try again Lem.
I haven't said that lots and lots of bbs was the only way to suppress an enemy.
I do think the function of a support gunner is to help keeps the enemy's heads down {higher sustained firepower} (1st post) and in that role I think a higher ROF is more effective (2nd 3rd) but where have I said this is the only way to suppress an enemy??

Ah Jaysus he just doesn't get it...

MacAonghusa

Firekitten wrote: »

Ah Jaysus he just doesn't get it...

Ok, well then perhaps you could explain why support guns exist and any other gun is as good?

Edit: forget it, we're not going to agree and I couldn't be arsed going around in circles again.

Firekitten

MacAonghusa wrote: »

Ok, well then perhaps you could explain why support guns exist and any other gun is as good?

Simple... To give to people like lemming to keep them occupied.


In all seriousness, In airsoft and real life, the role is to provided more sustained fire, with better accuracy at range. The bipod... and barrel length see?

200 rounds is not 'huge weight of fire'

Yes, it helps, we already established that. But your insistance that weight of fire is foremost is the falling point.

This topic is about support gun TACTICS. 'oh shoot lots ye'll be grand' is not tactics. Its a method of applying a tactic.

We're discussing the theory of supression here, BECAUSE ITS A TACTIC.

The support gunner is there to support. just shooting lots is not suporting.


Choice of position
supression
reloading and when to do so
weapon setups
longevity of performance over rate of fire
volume of fire vs how much ammo you can carry
the price of cheese in Nigeria

These are all tactical concerns that are relevant to the support gunner. So they can be more effective in the support role.

Your constant insistance that support gunning is about lots of fire is a bit dull now.

If we can advise other players here to make them better... more effective... then thats a good thing.

To be honest, without nearly every other concern, simple weight of fire is as innefective as not firing at all.

MacAonghusa

Firekitten wrote: »

Simple... To give to people like lemming to keep them occupied.


In all seriousness, In airsoft and real life, the role is to provided more sustained fire, with better accuracy at range. The bipod... and barrel length see?

200 rounds is not 'huge weight of fire'

Yes, it helps, we already established that. But your insistance that weight of fire is foremost is the falling point.

This topic is about support gun TACTICS. 'oh shoot lots ye'll be grand' is not tactics. Its a method of applying a tactic.

We're discussing the theory of supression here, BECAUSE ITS A TACTIC.

The support gunner is there to support. just shooting lots is not suporting.


Choice of position
supression
reloading and when to do so
weapon setups
longevity of performance over rate of fire
volume of fire vs how much ammo you can carry
the price of cheese in Nigeria

These are all tactical concerns that are relevant to the support gunner. So they can be more effective in the support role.

Your constant insistance that support gunning is about lots of fire is a bit dull now.

If we can advise other players here to make them better... more effective... then thats a good thing.

To be honest, without nearly every other concern, simple weight of fire is as innefective as not firing at all.

Either you misunderstood or I didn't spell it out clearly enough but I don't think volume of fire alone is foremost; i've tried to explain it clearly enough about the sustained fire role and the activities of the other team members (tactics btw).

Firekitten

MacAonghusa wrote: »

The most basic function, IMO, is to get a big volume of fire down range

Can we move the hell on please? this is tedious and wasting valuable thread pages.

MacAonghusa

Firekitten wrote: »

Can we move the hell on please? this is tedious and wasting valuable thread pages.

Which I did clarify in further posts :rolleyes:

Moved on...